Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Quale 05-21-05, 09:14 AM	Hi all. I'm new but I hope you'll bother with some responses anyway. 8) Played PnP RP for eons and D&D since pre 3.5 but I never played a caster in this system. Now I am going to make a Sorceror. (By the look of my thoughts you may think play another class, but this is not an option. ;)) Now, the 3.5 Sorceror thread needs a lot of love. 99% of the stuff there is pre 3.5 source based and there are practically no entries after Complete Arcane. The following parameters apply to my creation process: The character will start as level 5. It must be of good alignment, preferably lawful good but lawful is optional. The character will be a male human. Ability scores are not available at this time, but they will generally be high though not insane. I will have no access to specific magical items. Available sources are: PH, DMG, Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer, Book of Excalted Deeds and Players Guide to Faerun. The latter two may be subject to restrictions if it catches my GM's eyes and therefore should generally not be targeted for anything too rampant. People will react if I am forced to combine anything more than 2 base classes and 2 prestige classes. Spell selection is limited to PH unless a class ability or class spell list links the character to any of the other spell lists. I've spent quite some time thinking/reading and browsing this forum now, and what follows is a, hopefully, brief summary of my thoughts thus far: Sorcerors are challenging to create. I'm not happy with their spell selection. They are cool however and rarely played in my campaign and I absolutely insist on making one. Warmages from Complete Arcane (And maybe other classes) Also count as Sorcerors and while their special abilities and hitdie tempts, they will get even less access to utility spells than a Sorceror. Pluck away several of their somewhat overlapping attack spells, and the Sorceror just might come out with the better spell selection anyway..(?) Mage of the Arcane Order from Complete Arcane seemed very cool at first but that was before I realized how limited the spells called per day really is. I will come nowhere near the support need of my group with a Warmage, but I might come a little closer with a Sorceror. I have yet to analyse the spell selection properly. Divine spells and prestige classes are a possibility and would fit well with the setting, but I have yet to finish any analysis to overcome the new limitations to these combinations represented by Complete Divine. Metamagic has been generally discarded as semi useless by the other arcane caster players in this campaign. Me, I'm thinking that they look fun and should be more than usable with the right design. The jury is still out regarding the Sudden versions of the Metamagic feats described in Complete Arcane vs. The regular Metamagic feats. The classical suggestion of the Incantatrix from Players Guide to Faerun looks good and may be the natural way to evolve, but it sort of crashes abit (?) with a Mage of the Arcane Order progression, a prestige class who's quality I allready have been cheeky enough to question. Prestige classes like Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil from Complete Arcane look rather awesome, but it's a bit too far off with regards to the requirements and we don't level particulary fast so I will have to live with my levels through a lot of adventuring before I can "cash out" any long term investment builds. So you can see, it's a bit chaotic up here (points at head) ATM and I think that this forum is currently lacking abit with regards to options for 3.5 Sorcerers, but who knows, maybe there really aren't that many. Regardless of the reason, any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Build suggestions, Feat tips, Spell selection or just any analysis pertaining to the Sorceror is welcome. Sincerely,
Interested2 05-21-05, 09:29 AM	Metamagic has been generally discarded as semi useless by the other arcane caster players in this campaign. Me, I'm thinking that they look fun and should be more than usable with the right design. The jury is still out regarding the Sudden versions of the Metamagic feats described in Complete Arcane vs. The regular Metamagic feats. Feedback: The other arcane casters in your campaign are criminally insane.
solbergb 05-21-05, 01:28 PM	Metamagic other than quicken spell is far better on a sorcerer or other spont caster than it is on a prepared caster. If a prepared caster doesn't prepare a modified spell, the feat is wasted. Whereas all my sorcerer needs is an opponent just out of reach of a move+short range spell to make her enlarge spell feat (for example) worthwhile. Losing the move action when doing metamagic is annoying but it is far less annoying than having a feat sitting on your char sheet useless when it's needed because you didn't think you'd want it earlier in the day. Sudden metamagic and rods have less opportunity cost for prepared casters so they'll usually like them better. Warmage != sorcerer unless you make a very unoptomized sorcerer. Warmages excel in one of the 6 major aspects of an arcane caster (attack, defense, mobility, utility, buffing and combat divination (eg arcane sight, see invisible)). A sorcerer can be decent at all of them and excellent in a couple areas with proper spell and metamagic selection, warmage will be excellent at offense but will usually blow feats (and sometimes even caster levels for PRC's) trying to get some of the versatility back that a sorc does with one or two spells known out of his set. When creating a sorc, the first and last thing to think about is spells known. In the middle you think about metamagic to complement the spells. Everything else is secondary, beyond remembering to assign a decent charisma. So...take the suite of spells you like. Look them over and think about what metamagic would make them more versatile and useful, especially what metamagic would prevent you from duplicating similar spells. (eg, you probably don't need power word blind if you can do a heightened glitterdust). Then when you have your metamagic, look at spells again, but this time that benefit from the metamagic. When you're done, you should be able to do at the drop of a hat, most things expected of an arcane caster decently, and those you're weak in you should cover with consumables/magic items or brute force multiple casting of a spell that kinda works, but not very well. Swift action spells go a long way to mitigating two complaints about sorcerers...no quicken spell and low level slots not coming into play much. Then look at level progression. By level 5 you should be pretty versatile, by level 7 you should have spells in all categories, with at least one metamagic feat to expand the utility of the lower level spells. Oh, and finally..I dissent on mage of the arcane order. I see no need for it and if you have to play from level 1-10 you are missing out on a couple feats from level 2-9 that would otherwise be helpful. It's better if you start the game AFTER you have gotten back the bonus feats from the PRC that you had to waste to get in. Fatespinner, by contrast, has pretty much no downside for 4 levels and has a ton of great abilities. By the time you have qualified for and are done with fatespinner you're about level 12 and should have an easier time qualifying for any other PRC you like.
Quale 05-21-05, 07:07 PM	Feedback: The other arcane casters in your campaign are criminally insane. ROFL. I know they are, but I didn't know it was because they didn't see the excellence of metamagic. :D Metamagic other than quicken spell is far better on a sorcerer Great points on Sorcs vs metamagic. This is exactly the kind of info I need. Some things are just easier to discover by having experienced them in praxis. Warmage != sorcerer unless you make a very unoptomized sorcerer. Reassuring that you confirm my suspicion. I dodged that one. Thanks. When creating a sorc, the first and last thing to think about is spells known. Seem like very sound advice. Will get right on it. Wish me luck. If anyone feel like throwing in some additional spell selection ideas, that would be great too. Swift action spells Can't say that I immediately recognize the cathegory, but I will certainly look for them. on mage of the arcane order. I see no need for it Agreed and I follow your analysis. Fatespinner, by contrast I will check out that prestige class for sure. Many thanks for a great reply and taking the time to enlighten me. Sincerely,
Squirrelloid 05-22-05, 05:32 AM	Somewhere on these boards i posted what i consider an optimized 20th level sorc spells known list that was almost exclusively core. I know you can't search them. Um, let me put it this way: Utility, utility, utility. You can't have enough, especially at low spell levels. Consider all of Unseen Servant (potentially my all time favorite spell), grease, hold portal, feather fall, knock, glitterdust, etc... Disintegrate is an awesome utility spell. And don't ignore Fabrication. Enervation is all the 'damage' combat spells you'll ever need, barring fleshshiver (PGtF) being allowed. In which case take both. You can live off MM until then, swap MM out after 9th level for utility. Battlefield control is your friend. Evard's is awesome. Slow is also incredibly useful, at least early. Later on you might sub it out. Web is pretty good, but also to be subbed out after about 10th level. Abuse Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration (probably ending with the greater ones and subbing out the lower ones) to get a whole bunch of stuff its not worth taking otherwise. (eg, Forcecage). You want limited wish. If your 9th level spells aren't TS, MDJ, and shapechange, you're doing something wrong. Dont take spells you'll just permanency on yourself later. You can get both permanency and the spell off a scroll. (or if you must take it, sub it out later). If your meleers want you to take spells to cast on them, make them buy you a wand to use on them. Don't waste your spells known on 'buff the fighter' spells. Mobility: Fly, Dimension Door, Teleport are all potentially worthwhile. TPw/oError would be nice, but probably not worth it - there are too many other 7th level spells you want to have.
solbergb 05-23-05, 01:52 AM	Actually...limited wish is the way most sorcerers do permanency. It doesn't even cost any extra xp.
zoddtheimmortal 05-23-05, 04:17 AM	For one less level of spellcaster and one feat, I think that ascetic mage is worth it for any sorceror. Your charisma is already going to be your highest stat, might as well add that bonus to your AC, plus you receive the monk AC of your 1 monk level added to all your sorceror levels.
Sentient 05-23-05, 05:26 AM	One PrC I'd really like to see on a Sorcerer is Spelldancer(MoF). It's great with it's dances offering useful spells for free (known-wise, liek sleep and confusion). And to cast persistant spells for free. The entry feats are tough though, as they should be with a class this sweet. Anybody got a feat suggestion? I figure... LVL 6 Human SORCERER feats:Combat Casting, Dodge, Endurance, Mobility (Req)... no persistantfun till lvl 12. Any ways around that besides flaws?
solkanar 05-23-05, 06:19 AM	A sorcerer requires careful planning but, when done right, is a lot of fun to play. You start play at level 5, so low level survivability is important. Possible prestige classes are (as already mentioned) fatespinner (relatively easy prereq's), initiate of the sevenfold veil ( steep prereq's but a very powerful class), wild mage ( not the most powerful choice but very flavorful for a sorcerer), elemental savant ( the first levels don't lose caster level). This is certainly not the definitive list, but keep the basics in mind when going for a prestige class: don't lose on caster level!!!!Since you're already behind compared to wizards, this is even more important to sorcerer's. Your feats should definitely include metamagics. The most powerful ones are empower, enlarge (cones!!!), extend and persistant. If you plan on using a lot of damaging spells, energy substitution (with acid being the best choice) could be useful. If sneaking around is important consider still or silent spell. At high level, coming first in a round is very important so improved initiative will prove very useful. Note the absence of the draconic heritage feats from CA. That is not a coincidence!! The only feat worth mentioning is draconic breath, but it fails to deliver at the higher levels ( a 1e level spell becoming a 2D6 cone is nice, but a 9e level becoming a 18D6 cone is lame). Your spell selection will be reflecting your role in the party! If you look around a bit you should find a lot of spell lists Just a few thoughts: don't take too many damaging spells. Take a few with different energy types and stick with those. don't take spells that can easily be replaced with items ( mage armor is useless if bracers of armor are available) take spells that give you options. Illusions are a very good example. You can make a thousend different effects tailored to the situation with a simple silent image. Another good example is alter self and its high level friend polymorph any object Hope this helps
Quale 05-23-05, 09:50 AM	Awesome response guys. Thank you all for participating. A special thanks to Solkanar for his extensive and informative reply. I am still considering my options. I'm playing my main character for another adventure before the Sorceror will be created. If I'm lucky I may even be able to start at lvl 6. I will probably not be able to finalize my selection until at the very last moment. I realize now that the spell selection will probably be the toughest decisions to make by far. I figure that every campaign has it's own patterns and these must be considered carefully when selecting spells. In my campaign, we run a very Lawful Good'ish brotherhood kind of group lead by a couple of Torm paladins. Thus we spend mucho time fighting evil with a distinct tendency towards fighting undead. It's quite hack and slash oriented with a rather heavy emphasis on battlemat and figurine combat tactics. I consider everything you post with care even if I don't quote all the points in my reply. For now I'd just like to follow up on a couple points: Your feats should definitely include metamagics. The most powerful ones are empower, enlarge (cones!!!), extend and persistant. This may be a really daft question, especially since I'm not consulting the books before I ask; But why is Empower so popular (Vs. Maximize)? Also would you like to comment on Sudden metamagics? I am actually still considering dipping into Mage of the Arcane Order for 2 levels, but I am very far from sure. In sum it will cost me 1 feat, which in return will yield access to the entire spell list if only for once a day and one "additional spellslot" for when the going gets tough. Having access to one specific spell could mean the difference between stagnation and progression for the entire party during certain adventures, while on the other hand that Arcane Preparation (Or Cooperative magic whichever is the most useless) Feat really irks me. What do you think? Thanks again guys and keep the good stuff coming. Sincerely,
Father Dale 05-23-05, 10:41 AM	Empower is popular because it gives, typically, a bigger damage boost per spell level needed than Maximize. In some cases, it can actually do better than maximize. An empowered fireball vs a maximized fireball (at 10th caster level) would do (on average) 52.5 versus 60. A non metamagiced fireball does (on average) 35. Thus, for a 2 lvl adjustment you get an extra 17.5 damage, and for a 3 lvl adjustment you get an extra 25. Thats an increase of 8.75 per spell level used for Empower, and 8.33 per spell level for Maximize. The difference increases as damage dice increases. At 15 d6s, the Empower gives an increase of 13.12 per spell level, and maximize gives 12.5 per spell level. Empower works best with spells that give additional nonvariable damage, as it will empower that part as well. For instance, an empowered ray of enfeeblement (10th caster level) does (on average) 12.75 str, whereas a maximized ray of enfeeblement does 11 str. So, given that empower only uses a slot 2 higher, whereas maximize uses one 3 higher, its usually a better choice, and allows you to metamagic higher level spells earlier than maximize does.
Eyeless Blond 05-23-05, 11:18 AM	Well if you're going to bother with MotAO you may as well stick with it for four levels at least, to get access up to 6th level spells. There are some really useful spells in that 4-6 range. The thing is, though, that Mage is probably not a good idea for a sorc until higher levels; there's just too much of an opprotunity cost at lower levels, and spellpool access isn't all that wonderful until you can call a few levels of spells. Hm, what's the best way to get lots of caster levels, over and above your normal character levels, for more spellpool levels? I know the orange ioun stone gets you one, and the Archmage can get you more; are there other items that boost it higher?
Iaimeki 05-23-05, 05:37 PM	To be blunt, given your set of books, there are only 4 PrCs I would bother with for a full caster: incantatrix, fatespinner, initiate of the sevenfold veil, and archmage. Incantatrix is by far the strongest, and I recommend that every arcane caster take at least 5 levels whenever that PrC is allowed. The key class features for the incantatrix are cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect, and metamagic spelltrigger. Metamagic effect, with Extend and Persistent, allows you to turn 1 round/level or 1 min./level spells into all-day buffs. Metamagic spelltrigger allows you to turn something like a wand of enervation into a death-machine: using metamagic like Empower, Split Ray, and such, it's not hard to give most enemies more negative levels than they have hit dice in a single round. Cooperative metamagic allows you to either Persistent your allies' buffs, max out their offensive spells, or both. Incantatrix is simply amazing: there's no PrC for an arcane caster that even comes close to competing. Fatespinner and initiate of the sevenfold veil are both good PrCs once you have "enough" incantatrix (I generally stop at level 5, 7, or 10; the upper level abilities aren't as good as the lower-level ones, but an incantatrix can always use more metamagic feats and improved metamagic is really as good as it seems). Fatespinner tends to be more offensive in flavor, initiate is more defensive. Archmage 2 is also a necessity: you want one level of arcane reach at a minimum (look into combining arcane reach, touch range buffs, and Chain Spell to buff your whole party with cooperative metamagic and metamagic effect) and mastery of shaping (antimagic field, mage's disjunction, and many many others). Spellpower and another level of arcane reach are also good choices. As you suspected, warmages suck. Wizards are definitely better than sorcerers if for no other reason than that they can use Quicken and get spell levels one level sooner. If you're committed to playing a sorcerer, though, listen to Squirrelloid's advice on choosing spells.
Quale 05-23-05, 07:00 PM	Allright now we're really cooking here! Tremendous reply Iaimeki, very no nonsense and to the point. I hang on every word. Also I forgot to thank Squirrelloid for the insight on spellisting. Thanks Squirrelloid I am going through every spell you listed trying to get an, at least, theoretical grip on them. Though I readily admit I can't foresee the potential of all of them at this point, you guys obviously know what you're talking about and I'm not discarding anything until I have given it a go. I immediately fell in love with a few of them though and I will keep on trying to come up with ideas on ways to use the others before finally attempting to adapt the selection to my setting. Funny how the process looped back to Incantatrix. I'm gonna take Iaimeki's word for it and just go for it. My guess is that it takes some in-game relevation before I fully realize the potential of this prestigeclass anyway and with all this wonderful input I know I can't go completely wrong. I will keep you guys updated on the progress and post a character summary once it's ready to go. If you don't mind keeping on fleshing out this "Sorcerors for dummies" :P Thread, every pieces of feedback and info is still very much appreciated. Sincerely,
Funny Slaughter 05-24-05, 08:27 AM	make up a new 3.5 sorcerer thread, name it something with reloaded or stuff and i'll change the link in the build thread, easy as that. just pm me when you are done...
necrosnoop110 05-24-05, 08:44 AM	Here is some sorcerer links: Sorcerers with Class (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20050113a) DEFINITIVE sorcerer spell list 3.5 (Sisyfos) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183763) Ultimate 3.5e Sorcerer Spell Thread (Thelon Fairblade) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=131883) Best Sorcerer Build with FULL lvl 20 caster level? (CrimsonRyoko) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=183227) How to get the maximum out of your familiar (Wyrd) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=193357) The 3.5 Sorcerer-Thread (Funny Slaughter) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=239207) If you're creating an offical sorcerer thread model it after this format: Uberling's Druid's Handbook (Yekoj) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=165279)
solbergb 05-24-05, 02:01 PM	Archmage 2 is also a necessity: you want one level of arcane reach at a minimum (look into combining arcane reach, touch range buffs, and Chain Spell to buff your whole party with cooperative metamagic and metamagic effect) and mastery of shaping (antimagic field, mage's disjunction, and many many others). Check with your DM before assuming that works. While arcane reach does not have the "ray" word in the description like reach spell does, it uses the same mechanics: "The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away. The archmage must make a ranged touch attack. " Normally spells of type "Target" that can be chained requires it to conform to the description in the PHB about that kind...where you need LOS and LOF and you don't need to make an attack roll. Spells that work at range with an attack roll...that's rays, which are an "Effect" not "targeted spell"..you create an effect and then attack with it using normal ranged attack rules. You can't chain a ray, which is why nobody suggests mixing reach spell with chain spell. By the RAW it is ambiguous because they didn't use the magic word "ray" like they did with Reach spell. But I would not want to find out my DM thought it was a ray after taking skill focus and two spell focus feats to become an archmage for the purpose of combining with chain spell.
RadicalTaoist 05-24-05, 04:38 PM	Are you playing a sorceror without the Planar Handbook or Draconomicon? So sad.
Tonymitsu 05-24-05, 07:18 PM	Yeah there's not much I can add that hasn't already been said. I will say that when choosing your spell list, take all advice you get with a grain of salt. without having ever played a caster there is really no way to know what spells will work best for you. There is definately a "list" of spells out there that should all be your first picks if you are playing a pure caster sorceror, but be also be flexible and pay attention to the needs of the party. Myself, I love Necromancy spells (especially Finger of Death...*point*, *cast*, *poof*, another dead enemy :evillaugh ) but a lot of people tell me I am crazy for not casting Necromancy spells off of scrolls and wasting Sorceror slots on them. It's all personal preference. And that is something I've only gotten after playing a number of casters. If you have a reasonable DM, he may let you forget sorceror spells when you level of in favor of ones that more suit the current situation. And if you find you become less interesting in standing back flinging nukes at the enemies and more interested in up front melee combat then consider the Dragon Disciple PrC. Ridiculous stat boosts, hit die increases, dragon breath weapon, dragon natural armor. I am also combat obsessed and one of the things that brings me much enjoyment is throwing a 5th level spell slot for a Quickened True Strike to jab people to death with my shortspear, shortly before breathing fire on them. more :evillaugh anyway, good luck with your caster. Hope you enjoy it.
Quale 05-24-05, 07:36 PM	Wow! The info is just pouring in. I was afraid I wouldn't get any replies when I first posted, but now I'm almost at a point where I feel like I'm drowning. LOL! make up a new 3.5 sorcerer thread, name it something with reloaded or stuff and i'll change the link in the build thread, easy as that. just pm me when you are done Give it up for an active board mod! Very sweet offer and I really hope someone will take you up on it. It can't be me cuz I haven't got neither the experience, the knowledge nor the time and opportunity. But I really hope some of the more solid participators here do it. The links to the spelllists and discussions was awesome. If I can't find answers there I can't find them anywhere. I don't see a reason for inventing the wheel all over again and will for the most part definately go with the favourite spells in the good lists there. Check with your DM before assuming that works. Can't say I've gotten around to checking what that what is exactly, but I will. :D We run multiple GM's though who take turns. I'm one of them. ;) there is really no way to know what spells will work best for you. There is definately a "list" of spells out there that should all be your first picks if you are playing a pure caster sorceror, but be also be flexible and pay attention to the needs of the party. Yes I have come to understand how important local presedences and setting content is among other things. But like you say, some spells are just better math than others and also the good spellists add perspective to thing that I just don't think I would have been able to calculate unless I spent the next 2 months doing so. I'm simply amazed at the activity level and helpfull attitude on this board and now if you'll excuse me I'll go bury myself 6 feet under spell list print-outs. Sincerely,
solbergb 05-24-05, 08:05 PM	My best advice for picking a spell list is to visualize what your sorcerer should be able to do with magic. Just think of it that way. If you see him flying, fit in fly or sudden fly or overland flight or at least levitate. If you see him rending spells as easily as he rends flesh with his magic, consider dispel magic and also things like reciprocal Gyre, which tamper with enemy buffs. If you have a draconic theme, look at the draconic feats but also read up on the dragon in particular, and pick spells that go well with their tendencies. Think about how you visualize his spells protecting himself, how he moves, what he does when he is NOT adventuring (maybe he DOES want endure elements on his spell list because he hates being cold and doesn't like to show weakness by perspiring...or maybe he wants a beefier version even if it doesn't last as long, such as resist elements or prot elements...useful in combat yes, but also for cooling off on a very hot day...) If you think about more than D&D mechanics, but actually think about what it would be like to BE a sorcerer and what abilities you would want magic to give you, you will probably end up with a nicely-rounded set of spells, that not only give you interesting options but also just please you every time you cast them. Weirdly...that is usually more optimal than choosing the "top 5 spells" from somebody's list. Those are popular yes, commonly used yes, but they might lack versatility, and the death of a sorcerer's power is to have too much spell overlap and be totally useless in a wide variety of situations. All you really need for combat effectiveness is a couple good spells for hurting/impairing the other guy, preferably that metamagic so they seem like more spells. That leaves a lot of spells to do other things with...and many are so powerful or flexible that they are also usefulin combat (using prot energy to avoid a sunburn is overkill, but hey, you've got plenty of spell slots and it helps when the ambush happens...and you've got the spell known when fighting the sonic monster of doom)
Quale 05-25-05, 11:30 AM	and the death of a sorcerer's power is to have too much spell overlap and be totally useless in a wide variety of situations. Guess I should get hanged for this, but ever since I sort of got an overview good enough to include spells, feats and prestige classes, only then did I take a good look at the spells known pr. Level for sorcerers and what I discovered was worse than I thought. I will start with 4 level 1 spells and 2 level 2 spells and the progression isn't all that to put it mildly. 4/2/1 at level 6 and like I mentioned earlier, we don't really level an aweful lot in this campaign setting so I could easily play for a full year with no more than 3-4 lvl 2 spells and 1-2 lvl 3 spell. I really don't see anywhere to fit metamagic in this equation either and since those that stick with their mains will run lvl 8-9-10'ish, I can't expect enhanced lvl 1 spells to really do much for me. In our last fight, our lvl 8 wizard evocation specialist had huge problems hurting the boss mob due to spell resistance. And I know we're on our way into the Underdark.. So I admit it, I'm a little down right now. Call me naive, but I really thought one should be able to make something of a sorcerer even though it's been widely shunned in my campaigns, but now it feels a little like the class is broken on early levels. Slower spell level that Wizards? Sure. Limited spells known? Sure. But this is just nuts. Doubling the early progression numbers would have seemed more like balance to me. Mage of the Arcane order is not the answer, though it could be said to be a nice deal for the price of one feat. There are no feats that I can see that will do alot for me either, especially since selecting alot of other feats will bar the whole metamagic idea. I'm asking ya'll now if you can come up with a solution. This will probably have to go up on some kind of appeal to my co-GM's and thus you're welcome to go beyond the listed books in the presented material available. Maybe there is another prestige class that I don't know about that fixes this to some extent or maybe there are some good house rules or something that can be applied. Whatever it is, I would really appreciate any suggestions you can come up with, because there simply is no way I'm playing a character for years that always cast the same spell and got's lots of feats in waiting that he may not ever live to see used. Sincerely,
solbergb 05-25-05, 01:06 PM	Well, that's why you have to LOVE every spell that you pick :) Because you will be casting them a lot. And they will define you. At level 5, my sorcereress can do quite a lot with her spells, but since she's only one or two adventures from 6, I'll show that build to see what you can do with 4/3/1 spells (and cantrips!), plus metamagic. I'll show the metamagicked stuff too, so you can see what she has at her fingertips This character is often the party "rogue" doing with spells what she lacks in trapfinding. The order is the order I chose them. Genearally it is a decent option for your first spell on a list to be not really metamagicable, since it is top tier, but your next spells should be picked with metamagic in mind since you'll have higher tiers to play with. Sometimes you have to think way ahead, as in my chained mage hand (I hardly ever use mage hand, but chain mage hand does stuff that my other spells don't, and is a useful "little brother" to telekenesis violent thrust). The character is a TK themed sorcereress, with a caveat that doing stuff "near surfaces" is easier (ie, tenser's disk is more powerful than unseen servant, which does similar things but away from surfaces, evard's tentacles are more powerful than violent thrust TK, etc). It includes "breaking things" regardless of target type (magic missile, shatter, dispel magic) although the latter are later picks (L7 or 9, depending on how I feel at L7). Grease is a very weak evards tentacles, except they just pushes things away from the surface. Shadow binding is like grease, except the tentacles wrap you up and impair your movement instead of pushing other things away from you.) Feats are: Eschew Materials (flavor) Enlarge Spell (very useful on utility spells like unseen servant) Sculpt Spell (very useful on small area spells, of which I have several) Chain Spell (only for cantrips at L6, but it's there for chain grease at L8 to protect party members from my evard's tentacles) Cantrips: Read Magic (opening the entire spell list in scrolls to me) Prestidigitation (1001 uses) Open/Close (my most commonly used "rogue" spell) Mage Hand Dancing Lights (swapped out level 6 for detect poison, because I just have Unseen servants now 24x7 with bullseye lanterns) Mending (something my char likes away from adventuring, she's lazy) Detect Magic (trapfinding mostly) Detect Poison (trapfinding mostly) Level 1: Sculpted Prestidigitation (yes, everyone in 10' of me is dry, for an hour) Enlarged Open/Close (many traps have "close" range effects) Enlarged Mage Hand Sculpted Detect Poison (scan a 20' spread or 40' cone, not a 5x5x5 cube) Unseen Servant (many, many uses for my extra move action in a combat round, such as moving dropped items to allies, re-arming disarmed fighters, getting a potion into the hand of someone who will save the guy bleeding out, etc, plus it can lay down smokescreen, hold the bullseye lantern and drop caltrops. And out of combat....oh it is just lovely) Tenser's Disc (Unseen Servant's dumber brother, who is much stronger but much more limited. Avoiding balance checks for the party, transporting slow party members (including shifting them around in combat with spare move actions), transporting bodies, bulk goods and even once weilding a blind dwarf "swing left!" "no lower!".) Magic Missile (all purpose direct damage. Not powerful but steady and reliable and you will never run out. Most often used to finish off badly injured enemies) Grease (this is a trip spell, disarm spell, grapple protection spell and it also messes up charges, 5' steps etc if the enemy can't do DC15 balance checks reliably) Level 2: Enlarged, Sculpted Detect Poison Enlarged Tenser's Disc (longer leash before it winks out) Enlarged Unseen Servant (Ditto) Enlarged Magic Missile (yes I CAN shoot him from all the way over here) Enlarged Grease Sculpted Grease (if 5x5 grease is good, 20' spread of grease is BETTER!) Sudden Fly (my new favorite spell. Flight when you need it most, with no opportunity cost beyond spell slot burn) False Life (my one and only defense spell, other than distance between me and the other guys reflected in enlarge spell and Sudden Fly) Level 3 Chain Mage Hand (Throw your level in flasks of oil at a nearby enemy or swarm, manipulate many things in one concentration action, etc) Chain Open/Close ("In the surprise round the doors swing open revealing a bunch of monsters. They're all set to full attack when they get to go". "On my action all the doors swing shut again.") Chain Mending ("I only have so many cantrip slots....") Chain Detect Poison (it can detect on target object/creature instead of area) Enlarged, Sculpted Grease Shadow Binding (interrupts actions and entangles victims with a will save. Lowers dex for balance and reflex saves vs grease. Plus dazes for a round in a non-mind-affecting way, which is brutal when you can cast it over and over.) I feel I have plenty of options with this spell mix at level 6. I do carry about 20 first and second level scrolls (mostly first, with 3-4 second) for the rare situations where these don't get the job done, and I have a wand of enlarge person and access to buy a 2nd level wand from DMG list (rescued a crafter from a prison cell) which I'll be able to afford sometime in level 6 (probably going to take invisibility...it's good for the arcane caster to be able to screen the party in a more subtle way than obscuring mist sometimes)
solbergb 05-25-05, 01:22 PM	Oh, and I'd like to point out that Olivia, with her wacky TK spell mix has been a major asset to level 8 average parties as low as level 4. No overlap with the evocation specialist that you already have, for example. Sets up the high level fighters nicely, helps protect them too (prone people are -4 to hit, people on grease can't 5' step toward you and full attack without balance checks, nearly dead opponents become all the way dead, full plate guys don't have to make balance checks if they ride discs, slow guys get zipped to the front line on your action so they can full attack with a +1 to hit from height advantage sometimes....) I think if you are playing with a L8 party and you are L6, you need to stay away from the "usual" attack spells and focus on battlefield control, setup etc spells to let the "bigguns" do their job. A very good support sorcerer for a normal party of L8s would have: L1 Grease L2 Glitterdust L3 Haste and sculpt spell, to expand the glitterdust and grease areas. your other L1 and L2 spells can be whatever you want. If you are worried about SR, you might go without magic missile and instead go with an "orb" spell from CA. You have to hit with a ray to make it work, but it is SR=no. As are grease and glitterdust and haste, by the way...none require a caster level check. Or you can do draconic heritage with the breath weapons...those are SU damage dealing that don't miss, but require you to get a bit closer. You want ONE direct damage spell, the rest should be mobility, defense, utility (note that haste is mobility for the whole party, plus a little attack and defense, so you might put off another mobility spell for a level or two). Here's a mix that is entirely SR/caster check immune that adds a lot to a higher level party when playing "up". I have ignored armor class spells, because you won't get it high enough to matter, but added false life, because you are really gonna be a "Squishie" without it. Cantrips: Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Det Magic, others your choice L1: Grease, Acid Orb, Silent Image, Enlarge Person L2: Glitterdust, False Life L3: Haste Feats: Sculpt Spell, Draconic Heritage, Draconic Breath (I like acid, YMMV) Swap enlarge person for polymorph at level 8 perhaps. You'll do a mix of battlefield control and buffing, with direct damage in emergencies (like when grappled or surrounded or the evocation expert has left a bunch of nearly dead enemies)
Mommy was an Orc 05-25-05, 01:52 PM	I often play something similar to this when playing the primary arcane caster who is a Sorcerer. I'd probably swap out False Life with Invisibility though - Draconic Heritage of Green means that you can move silently and turn invisible. Great for hiding when the fight gets too tough. Also, I wouldn't get too stuck on being lower level - that means you'll go up faster. Cantrips: Read Magic, Prestidigitation, Det Magic, others your choice L1: Grease, Acid Orb, Silent Image, Enlarge Person L2: Glitterdust, False Life L3: Haste Feats: Sculpt Spell, Draconic Heritage, Draconic Breath (I like acid, YMMV)
NineInchNall 05-25-05, 03:20 PM	Um, I don't know about anyone else, but for me, as far as bang for your buck is concerned, the metamagic feat Fell Drain from Libris Mortis can't be beat. I know you don't have the book, but you should check it out just for this feat. +2 spell level adjustment to cause a damaging spell to deal a negative level whenever it deals damage. So a spell that hits multiple times or does continuing damage can do multiple negative levels. A freakin' acid splash allows no save, no SR, and is a 0th level spell. You can cast how many level 2 spells per day at level 5? The nicest one is Fell Drain magic missile (once you hit level 9). It is a third level spell that hits five times for a total of 5d4+5 damage and FIVE negative levels. :eek: You could easily take down a 50 HD critter (given 10 rounds). Go to your local hobby shop, read the feat, memorize it, then take it for your character. It's just too good to pass up.
Rurik "The Silent" 05-25-05, 05:07 PM	Um, I don't know about anyone else, but for me, as far as bang for your buck is concerned, the metamagic feat Fell Drain from Libris Mortis can't be beat. I know you don't have the book, but you should check it out just for this feat. +2 spell level adjustment to cause a damaging spell to deal a negative level whenever it deals damage. So a spell that hits multiple times or does continuing damage can do multiple negative levels. A freakin' acid splash allows no save, no SR, and is a 0th level spell. You can cast how many level 2 spells per day at level 5? The nicest one is Fell Drain magic missile (once you hit level 9). It is a third level spell that hits five times for a total of 5d4+5 damage and FIVE negative levels. :eek: You could easily take down a 50 HD critter (given 10 rounds). Go to your local hobby shop, read the feat, memorize it, then take it for your character. It's just too good to pass up. yeah thats a nice combo ive used it it works great.
Quale 05-25-05, 07:54 PM	Fell Drain wouldn't go down too nicely in a Lawful Good brotherhood goverened by paladins in a setting which largely is about holding off the onslaught of evil ;) But thnx for the suggestion anyway. solbergb: Many thanks for those replies. I have regained some hope because of them. I need to process the info abit more but first there's a few things I don't quite understand. Swap enlarge person for polymorph at level 8 perhaps. Hmm I think I must swap spells of equal level. I'm not sure I understand this. Sculpted Prestidigitation (yes, everyone in 10' of me is dry, for an hour) Hmm I read and reread the spell. I'm not sure I get this either. First, what do you mean dry and is it powerful? (LOL) And second, how do you dry anyone with a spell that can warm one pound of material by sculpting it? I don't think my GM's would ever allow me to accomplish anything with this spell other than impressing simpletons in villages. (Which may not be something to scoff at, but I still think it lacks something in solving my power problem 8)) Sudden Fly (my new favorite spell. Flight when you need it most, with no opportunity cost beyond spell slot burn) Sudden fly? Who? What? Where? :confused: Sincerely,
solbergb 05-26-05, 11:59 AM	Hmm I think I must swap spells of equal level. I'm not sure I understand this. Yes, you take Polymorph as your first level 4 spell (both a self-buff and a party buff and faster than Enlarge) and then trade Enlarge for some other useful L1 spell (maybe you finally get around to mage armor, or another utility spell or feather fall...can't go wrong with feather fall on a sorcerer) Hmm I read and reread the spell. I'm not sure I get this either. First, what do you mean dry and is it powerful? (LOL) And second, how do you dry anyone with a spell that can warm one pound of material by sculpting it? Sculpt spell turns ANY area into either a 20' spread, 40' cone, 10' cylinder (like flame strike) or 4x10x10x10' cubes. It is however still limited by spell range, so a 20' spread prestidigitation is limited to 10' around the caster. Prestidigitation has modes where it operates on an area. "Target, Effect, or Area: See text" "It can color, clean, or soil items in a 1-foot cube each round." That's an area effect of 1' cube. "Dry" is not in the precise list of what presidigitation can do, but I have yet to see a DM who didn't think it was an appropriate use of the spell, similar to "clean". In prior editions there was a whole host of cantrips (clean, soil, chill, warm, flavor, gather, color, a glowing spell fo some kind etc etc) that do what prestidigitation does now. Other cantrips from that era (flamefinger..a spell that just did what a tindertwig does now, dry, dampen) that aren't duplicated by another spell. At a minimum you can clean up all the smelly half-orcs within 10' and not soil your noble outfit when you sit down at the filthy bar. If the DM does allow dry, it's the perfect rainshield when sculpted...normally the 1'x1'x1' area limits the effect. If "dry" is not an allowed use of the spell..well there is always Unseen Servant and an umbrella :) It isn't powerful. But it IS useful. I don't think my GM's would ever allow me to accomplish anything with this spell other than impressing simpletons in villages. (Which may not be something to scoff at, but I still think it lacks something in solving my power problem 8)) Impressing simpletons is an important sorcerer role, it goes with the bluff skill and the high charisma :) It also shows that you are better than the common folk, YOU don't get ruffled by wading throught the bat guano to get at the dragon. Sudden fly? Who? What? Where? :confused: I think it is actually "Fly, Swift" in Complete Adventurer. It is a level 2 spell that lets you fly for one round using a swift action to activate it. While this may not seem like much, just try it on a sorcerer sometime. It is a million times better than levitate or fly for tactical combat use, since you never have to waste an action activating it. (it is kind of like boots of haste actually, it has a similar feel). This means round 1 of every combat you can get the hell away from the melee monsters (straight up if you have to). It means you can close for short range spells without being in charge range of nonfliers. Yes, to stay flying you burn through L2 spell slots pretty fast, but so what? After level 8 you'll never use them in combat for anything else anyway, and even in the lower levels (I started using this at L5) you only need that kind of mobility 1-2 times a combat. If you have enlarge or polymorph you can beef yourself up to carry more and take a party member (or three with polymorph) with you for short hops. mmm..one more comment. If you do take the suggested build above (grease, enlarge->polymorph, glitterdust, etc) you will probably want heighten spell at level 9. Why? So your grease and glitterdust have really high save DC's and can continue to be your primary stoppers. Even at high levels a surprising number of monsters are very discommoded by being tripped, disarmed or blinded, and again, these are your SR=no save or XXX spells.
Quale 05-31-05, 11:46 AM	Thanks again solbergb! Been reviewing all the info I got in and working with the character idea. I decided to give it a go. It's a pretty bold set-up. I'm diving in there with very little to show for except "spell-niftyness". I decided against arming myself with personal protection spells. Partly because I think the spell pool at this level is limited enough that I should limit it further to try and be on the "safe side" (yawn), and partly because I seek a thrilling experience and wish to rely on my teammates and the exchange between them and me rather than myself alone in order to survive the few next levels. Also I really don't think any of the personal protection/stealth/mobility spells would do much for me in the setting I'll be playing this character and also he is kinda serving as an alternative to another arcane character who does nothing but see to his own protection. The character plan is not done. I need to make up my mind on a couple points. Feedback/questions/advice is as always, highly appreciated. So without further ado: Modus the Sorcerer at level 6 and Incantatrix 10. Str:10 Dex:12 Con:16 Int:16 (Primarily for Spellcraft, which is a major Incantatrix deal) Wis:10 Cha:19 and 20 (+1 at lvl 4, +2 at lvl 8) Feats: Lvl 1: Iron Will (PreReq), Skill Focus Spellcraft (+3. Might as well get it early. Several other feats get's me +2 but this is the only one I feel I can afford) Lvl 3: Silent Spell (Optional PreReq.) Lvl 6: Sculpt Spell (Goes well with most things in this set-up. Both short and long run) Lvl 7: Empower Spell (Incant. Bonus Meta. Tough choice this one. Too early for Chain Spell, but I also need to fit in Heighten spell here somewhere so I'm really not sure) Lvl 9: Craft Wand. (Too early for Incant. Spell Trigger ability, which I get at 11, but knowing my campaign it will take time to actually produce a wand and my next option is lvl 12 which is too late) Lvl 10: Heighten Spell. (Incant. Bonus Meta. Another tough choice. Could go for Chain Spell here, but Heighten spell seems more like the more diversified choice) What's currently missing in that feat list IMO is Chain Spell, Enlarge Spell and Energy Substitution. Possibly also Extent Spell. Spells at Sorceror level 6. Have not yet decided on the coming spells. 0: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, Open/Close, Prestidigitation. 7 total. 1: Enlarge Person (No other caster has this in this group as far as I know and it would serve both me and the group well to put this on the tanks. A- They will love me and B- They will take up more space which is important when I plan on hiding behind them for protection) Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Tensers Floating Disk. 4 total. 2: Glitterdust, Flaming Sphere. (I like this spell for a number of reasons. It lasts. It can be controlled and moved around while I keep casting. It would psychologically serve as an obstruction in some spaces which is a typical problem with our fighting formation that the mobs slip through holes and beat on the casters behind. My only defense thus far is Grease and This to discourage mobs from parking adjacent to me. Will in time probably replace this though.) 2 total. 3: Have no idea yet. Prefer a non-buff that goes with my Meta. Haste is out as is Magic Circle, Energy Protection, SleetStorm, Invisibility Sphere and a few more. Lot's of candidates though.. Dispel Magic, Fireball, Major Image, Slow etc. 1 total. Skills: Nothing much to say here except calculating the Spellcraft total at level 10: 13 ranks + 3 (Int) +3 (Skillfocus) + 2 (Arcane Knowledge synergy) +2 (Fox Cunning which I hope is available) Total: 23. Sincerely,
Iaimeki 06-01-05, 10:19 PM	Feats: Lvl 1: Iron Will (PreReq), Skill Focus Spellcraft (+3. Might as well get it early. Several other feats get's me +2 but this is the only one I feel I can afford) Lvl 3: Silent Spell (Optional PreReq.) Lvl 6: Sculpt Spell (Goes well with most things in this set-up. Both short and long run) Lvl 7: Empower Spell (Incant. Bonus Meta. Tough choice this one. Too early for Chain Spell, but I also need to fit in Heighten spell here somewhere so I'm really not sure) Lvl 9: Craft Wand. (Too early for Incant. Spell Trigger ability, which I get at 11, but knowing my campaign it will take time to actually produce a wand and my next option is lvl 12 which is too late) Lvl 10: Heighten Spell. (Incant. Bonus Meta. Another tough choice. Could go for Chain Spell here, but Heighten spell seems more like the more diversified choice) What's currently missing in that feat list IMO is Chain Spell, Enlarge Spell and Energy Substitution. Possibly also Extent Spell. I think Heighten is a waste. You see, one of the secrets of high-level play is that everything makes their saves. And that's not including the many random immunities both NPCs and monsters get. In the midlevels, 2 or 3 points on your glitterdust's save DC is _not_ worth the feat, IMO, especially when you could cast a more effective higher-level spell in the same slot. I generally consider Still and Silent wastes, too: how often do you encounter situations where you have to use one? Of these, how many situations can't be covered with an appropriate magic item? Enlarge is bad for the same reason: only rare situational usage. Energy Substitution is an awful feat, because energy spells are almost never the best combat spells and, even if you have it, it only works for one energy type, which whatever you're fighting is likely to resist just as whatever base type you have for your spell. The way to deal with energy resistances is smart spell selection, not Energy Substitution. SF (Spellcraft) is too early. It's basically useless until incantatrix. In this build, you're a 3rd-level incantatrix without Persistent Spell. This is a waste. You need Extend and Persistent by 9th level: they're most of the reason for the PrC. Sample better feat order: 1st: Iron Will, Sculpt Spell 3rd: Extend Spell 6th: Craft Wand Inc 1: Persistent 9th: SF (Spellcraft) Inc 4: Chain Spells at Sorceror level 6. Have not yet decided on the coming spells. 0: Detect Magic, Read Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Message, Open/Close, Prestidigitation. 7 total. 1: Enlarge Person (No other caster has this in this group as far as I know and it would serve both me and the group well to put this on the tanks. A- They will love me and B- They will take up more space which is important when I plan on hiding behind them for protection) Grease, Ray of Enfeeblement, Tensers Floating Disk. 4 total. 2: Glitterdust, Flaming Sphere. (I like this spell for a number of reasons. It lasts. It can be controlled and moved around while I keep casting. It would psychologically serve as an obstruction in some spaces which is a typical problem with our fighting formation that the mobs slip through holes and beat on the casters behind. My only defense thus far is Grease and This to discourage mobs from parking adjacent to me. Will in time probably replace this though.) 2 total. 3: Have no idea yet. Prefer a non-buff that goes with my Meta. Haste is out as is Magic Circle, Energy Protection, SleetStorm, Invisibility Sphere and a few more. Lot's of candidates though.. Dispel Magic, Fireball, Major Image, Slow etc. 1 total. I prefer unseen servant to tenser's floating disk, since it's more flexible. Flaming sphere is a weak spell. I'd suggest web as an excellent battlefield control spell at this level. Slow is an amazing combat spell early on (though you might want to swap it out later). Dispel magic might be better if your DM likes spellcasting enemies.
Quale 06-03-05, 07:46 AM	Really appreciate you considering this build Iaimeki. I understand some of your points, but feel like quite the :confused: on others. Let me go through a couple. Hope you take the time to explain them. You see, one of the secrets of high-level play is that everything makes their saves. I never really played high level, and chances are, I never will, so there is that to consider. I'll have to take your word for it but it raises one question: If everything saves, what good is a caster at high levels? Are you sure this is a universal truth or could it be that the settings that form the basis of your experience are played in a certain way? I'd be thankful if you could elaborate on this some more. I could very well miss the point entirely since I basically have no idea what's going on "up there" In those very high levels. I generally consider Still and Silent wastes, too: how often do you encounter situations where you have to use one? Of these, how many situations can't be covered with an appropriate magic item? The answers to these in my campaign is: Very Often and none. Silence is a much used spell both by our DM's and players to shut spellcasters up. It will be a wonderful tactical choice pluss there is also the stealth factor. If I had a gold piece for every time a DM decided the mobs were on to us because of vocal activity from the casters, I'd be a millionaire. Part two, we really don't get alot of magic items. We can't shop for items and DM's are notoriously stingy. Thus I can't solve anything specific by purchasing the right magic item or even believe that I fill find one. Energy Substitution is an awful feat, because energy spells are almost never the best combat spells and, even if you have it, it only works for one energy type, which whatever you're fighting is likely to resist just as whatever base type you have for your spell. The way to deal with energy resistances is smart spell selection, not Energy Substitution. I hear you and understand your analysis. I hadn't selected it anyway and even though the picture could perhaps be a little more nuanced during mid levels, your points makes me rest easier having not selected it. In this build, you're a 3rd-level incantatrix without Persistent Spell. This is a waste. You need Extend and Persistent by 9th level: they're most of the reason for the PrC. Here I admit I'm quite clueless. Could you explain why these are so important for Incant. Build? Flaming sphere is a weak spell. Again, why? I'm reading on it and considering my options and I can't see this from a theoretical perspective. If you'd take the time to explain a couple of these points to me, I would really appreciate it. Sincerely,
happymoocow 06-03-05, 08:52 AM	I like sorcerors for gishes. If not a gish I just don't play one. Why? Wizards get metamagic feats and sorcerors don't. It's easy to specialize in divination and drop illusion (most of the illusion stuff is not that usefull anyway). So that leaves the sorceror with 1 more spell per day of each level, a slower progression, less feats, they are casted slower, & a limited list. On the bright side you don't have to carry a stupid book around that is worth your entire life and then some. For a gish it isn't that bad. I mean I like to take planned spell caster and quicken spell for the later levels. Arcane strike early on. Other feats are good too I mean like EWP jovar, improved critical jovar, and weapon focus jovar. Power attack & cleave is always nice too. I don't usually get planned caster and quicken spell. It's actually not that bad if you want to epic. In epic you need 3 metamagic feats for the epic metamagic feat that reduces the spell level you raise for using metamagic by one. So you can have an empowered polar ray which is a pretty good cold damage ranged touch. ANYWAY. I always go for the fighter1/sorcerer5/ED10/XX??? I take 1 level of that prc from the CW that reduces arcane spell failure. Pretty easy class to enter. Too bad it sucks after the first level.
Lord Arkhaven 06-03-05, 10:50 AM	Quale, I am currently playing a Lawful Good sorceror who just hit Level 5 last week! I will post him and where I want him to go as an added idea. Long did I look at Incantatrix but in the end I just couldn't do it because some of the abilities are wizard friendly rather than sorceror friendly. What I did instead is devise a build that uses the Book of Exalted Deeds as a sorceror's bible. By 20th level the build goes Sorceror 6/Exalted Arcanist 5/Celestial Mystic 9. The key to this build is the bonus exalted feats that an Exalted Arcanist gets, which is 2 of them. When one looks at them, a great many exalted feats are not terribly optimised for spellcasters. The bonus feats therefore satisfy two of the three feats that the Celestial Mystic needs, so you only need to burn one feat. In my opinion the Consecrate Spell and Purify Spell feats needed for Exalted Arcanist are not wasted at all because they are in fact very potent feats. I myself decided that a halfling sorceror has a lot going for it. Feats By Level 1st - Sor - Servant of the Heavens 3rd - Sor - Purify Spell 6th - Sor - Consecrate Spell 7th - EA - Sacred Vow (Bonus) 9th - EA - *Blank* 9th - EA - Vow of Abstinance (Bonus) 12th - CM - Practiced Spellcaster 15th - CM - Empower Spell 18th - CM - Maximise Spell Spells By Level 1st - Detect Magic, Read Magic, Daze, Mage Hand Lesser Acid Orb, Shield 2nd - Prestidigitation 3rd - Eyes of the Avoral 4th - Message, Glitterdust 5th - Charm Person, Mirror Image 6th - Fireball 7th - Fly, Protection from Energy (EA Bonus Spells, no caster level gained) 8th - Endure Elements, Beneign Transposition, Dispel Magic 9th - Arcane Mark, Greater Invisibility 10th - Shatter, Major Image, Cold Bolt 11th - Ghost Sound, Teleport (*All Sanctified Spells) 12th - None (no caster level gained) 13th - Consecrate, Haste, Dimensional Lock, Arc of Lightning 14th - Greater Dispel Magic 15th - Spell Enhancer, Reciprocal Gyre, Disintigrate 16th - Energy Immunity 17th - Call Faithful Servants, Greater Heroism, Righteous Smite 18th - Axiomatic Creature 19th - Greater Teleport, Mind Blank 20th - Wish Spell Swaps 4th - 6th - 8th - 10th - 12th - 14th - Dispel Magic for ? 16th - Protection from Enegy for ? 18th - 20th - Teleport for ? The spells aren't in stone yet but it gives you an idea. Conjuration attack spells mean I only have a few spells that don't bypass spell resistance. Spell Enhancer gives a boost in the fights where I really need to crack SR. I therefore feel confident not taking any Spell Penetration feats. See my write up in the old sorceror thread on how Purify Spell can really wrack up damage with d8 spells (like Righteous Smite) and 2d6 spells (like Disintigrate.) This build will let you cast every arcane spell in the BOED. You cast spells as a celestial from CM and you get all the Sanctified spells from EA. Plus the many bonuses from CM are more than worth the loss of spell level, some of which is gained back with Practised Spellcaster. Moving into epic (if it happens) I would finish CM and then perhaps take 2 levels of Paladin. This would give the character crazy saves and would fill up the other 2 Practised Spellcaster levels. Still can't find a worthwhile feat at Level 9 though. Don't want to take Arcane Preparation because Purify and Consecrate will be cast with only a standard action.
Quale 06-03-05, 08:59 PM	Really appreciating your input Lord Arkhaven. Like I said earlier, an excalted character fits well within the setting. I'm allready so far into the Incantatrix idea how that I wanna see that through, but I'm definately keeping the excalted anarchist.. I mean arcanist (hehe) in mind for later. Now if only someone would explain Iaimeki's points to me.. 8) Sincerely,
RadicalTaoist 06-03-05, 09:11 PM	Still can't find a worthwhile feat at Level 9 though. Don't want to take Arcane Preparation because Purify and Consecrate will be cast with only a standard action. Have you considered Monk and Ascetic Mage?
solbergb 06-03-05, 09:39 PM	Just a comment on metamagic. enlarge, silent and heighten are marginal on a prepared caster because they will almost never prepare a spell with this metamagic. They are actually better on a sorcerer, because there is no opportunity cost for making use of the feat. If you have a higher level slot than the spell, and the appropriate spell known for the situation is level2, not level 6, then it costs you only your move action to bump the save DC up by 4 points with heighten. Likewise if the enemy is too far for a move+attack but in range of an enlarged spell, and again the best of your spells known is not in range...you can use the best spell for the situation by enlarging it. Silent on a spont caster is even better because you get your whole list of spells when silenced, rather than the one you grudgingly prepared silent just in case. Still on a spont caster has the problem that it doesn't work in a grapple, which is where you need it most. Unless you want to cast in armor, I don't like this feat very much. Remember that on a spont caster the resource to worry about is spells known, not spells prepared. Metamagic is a lot worse on prepared casters even though they do it in less time, simply because they have to decide proactively when to use the metamagic, instead of applying it reactively to the shifting situation that suddenly makes it useful. This sort of thing is why a lot of prepared casters are festooned with rods of metamagic in the higher levels. As for "monsters always make their saves in high levels". Well, maybe if they are all 1 CR/3 HD or 1CR/4 HD monsters. The save curve on the big dumb monsters goes up very quickly yes. But the save or dies remain useful on every single monster that uses character levels for most of their CR, and it remains useful on the 1CR/1 or 1CR/2 monsters, especially if you hit a weak save. People who say things like that are the same guys who claim that grapple and trip are universally useless at high levels. They are not. They actually work very well on the opponents who are not gargantuan. It is just that at higher levels all the dumb/strong monsters scale beyond tactical maneuvers and most saves just from sheer piled-on hit dice, where at low levels all enemies are essentially the same as characters - size med or small, with small variances in their saving throws.
Votan 06-03-05, 11:18 PM	Still on a spont caster has the problem that it doesn't work in a grapple, which is where you need it most. Unless you want to cast in armor, I don't like this feat very much. Arcane preparation can handle this if absolutely needed. Still, a (prepared) silent teleport is the best way out of a grapple that I can think of. I'll also mention that I actually like Mage of the Arcane Order. Is the the strongest possible choice? No. But the cost of feats results in an insurance against not having a needed spell. With this class there is never a utiltiy spell that is needed that can't be simply called up. This helps enormously. JACD
Iaimeki 06-04-05, 12:11 AM	As for "monsters always make their saves in high levels". Well, maybe if they are all 1 CR/3 HD or 1CR/4 HD monsters. The save curve on the big dumb monsters goes up very quickly yes. But the save or dies remain useful on every single monster that uses character levels for most of their CR, and it remains useful on the 1CR/1 or 1CR/2 monsters, especially if you hit a weak save. I stand by this statement for NPCs with class levels, too. While monsters have huge numbers of HD, NPCs can buy +save items just like PCs. With something like 75k at 20th level (which is a fair chuck of an NPC's cash, but not by any means all of the cash of a typical NPC of that level; admittedly, my play groups have discovered that NPCs with only "standard" cash at that level get destroyed by PCs, so we tend to do the undertreasure-some-encounters-so-you-can-overequip-others thing), you can get +10 to all saves. If the NPC is multiclassed at all like a typical character is and has other save boosters (feats, decent abilities, etc.), you're often looking at saves in the high 20s or low 30s (say, +12 for a save, +10 for items, +5 for ability, +2 for feat/class ability = +29). Given that the maximum DC possible for a 9th-level spell is, in most cases, 10 + 9 (spell level) + 12 (34 in key spellcasting ability) + 2 (Spell Focus feats) = 33, this is, IMO, not good enough to justify investing in spells that require saves. Sure, if your DM doesn't min-max at all, spells with saves might work, but at least in the games I play in, the DMs are as good at min-max as the players. The other issue to consider along this line is that a lot of the spells with saves have immunities available: death ward, soulfire (BoED), or have the undead type for death effects; mind blank, occult slayer, or any of several type for mind-affecting effects, and so forth. No-save spells are also hurt by these, but not, in my experience, to the same degree. I never really played high level, and chances are, I never will, so there is that to consider. I'll have to take your word for it but it raises one question: If everything saves, what good is a caster at high levels? Are you sure this is a universal truth or could it be that the settings that form the basis of your experience are played in a certain way? I'd be thankful if you could elaborate on this some more. I could very well miss the point entirely since I basically have no idea what's going on "up there" In those very high levels. Obviously, everything is relative to experience. If your DM likes to run fighter 20s who eschew magic items, well, your experience will be very different than mine =). I'm merely pointing out that PCs at high levels can have basically impenetrable saves, that NPCs designed along similar lines can achieve saves that aren't much worse, and that monsters have high saves because of high base abilities and large numbers of hit dice. Casters, actually, dominate higher levels, but not because of the power of their spells with saves. Rather, it's everything else they can do: summon, divine, teleport, cast instant death spells without saves, change forms, fight, control the battlefield, and generally surpass the role of "caster" to take over everything else as well. People who say things like that are the same guys who claim that grapple and trip are universally useless at high levels. They are not. They actually work very well on the opponents who are not gargantuan. It is just that at higher levels all the dumb/strong monsters scale beyond tactical maneuvers and most saves just from sheer piled-on hit dice, where at low levels all enemies are essentially the same as characters - size med or small, with small variances in their saving throws. Grapples are actually useless at high levels for other reasons: the Medium and smaller characters you want to use them on have freedom of movement and dimension door, which together make it difficult to use grapples to prevent your enemies from acting. The answers to these in my campaign is: Very Often and none. Silence is a much used spell both by our DM's and players to shut spellcasters up. It will be a wonderful tactical choice pluss there is also the stealth factor. If I had a gold piece for every time a DM decided the mobs were on to us because of vocal activity from the casters, I'd be a millionaire. Part two, we really don't get alot of magic items. We can't shop for items and DM's are notoriously stingy. Thus I can't solve anything specific by purchasing the right magic item or even believe that I fill find one. Well, if that's the case . . . though usually in those circumstances, I'd make a study of moving out of the silence's range. Do you do a lot of dungeon fighting or otherwise have restricted movement? I can see why you'd want it, though, and as solbergb notes, Silent Spell is much better for a spontaneous caster. Here I admit I'm quite clueless. Could you explain why these are so important for Incant. Build? The power of incantatrix comes from three abilities: cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect, and metamagic spell trigger. The most potent use of metamagic effect is to turn short-duration spells into all-day buffs using Persistent Spell. Typically, these include both defensive buffs (e.g., blink), sensors (arcane sight, say), offense boosters (eagle's splender), movement (fly), and spells that serve some or all of the other purposes (polymorph). Cooperative metamagic can be used similarly to allow your allied casters with all-day spells, so the cleric have can have divine favor, divine power, and righteous might on all day even without Divine Metamagic. Again, why? I'm reading on it and considering my options and I can't see this from a theoretical perspective. The damage is not that impressive (2d6 for a move action at 4th-level isn't terrible, but it fades fast and offers a Reflex save to negate the damage even without evasion), and it's more or less just damage: it doesn't help your allies much, and doesn't do much to impede your enemies from moving. (They presumably can't pass through its square without getting burned, but they do have that option, and they can walk around it unless you're fighting in 5' wide corridors.) My estimate is based partly on the spell's short lifetime: it might be good when you first get it, but I think it will turn into dead slot only two or so levels later. Enlarge, silent and heighten are marginal on a prepared caster because they will almost never prepare a spell with this metamagic. They are actually better on a sorcerer, because there is no opportunity cost for making use of the feat. If you have a higher level slot than the spell, and the appropriate spell known for the situation is level2, not level 6, then it costs you only your move action to bump the save DC up by 4 points with heighten. Likewise if the enemy is too far for a move+attack but in range of an enlarged spell, and again the best of your spells known is not in range...you can use the best spell for the situation by enlarging it. This is true. However, in my experience, combats rarely involve ranges that can't be handled with medium range spells, and that if they do, a long range spell will serve (400 ft. + 40 ft./level is well outside of practical missile range at most levels, and to the point where it's hard to distinguish targets without some form of scrying or high Spot). Maybe your experience is different, but I just don't see extra range being important enough to waste a feat on. Part of the reason I don't like Heighten is because of the shadow conjuration and shadow evocation spells. These do have the double-save mechanic, but they allow you to pick any evocation or conjuration spell of lower level, even the ones you don't know, and the save DC is as for the higher-level slot you're consuming. Later on, the same is true of, e.g., limited wish. In general, given that you want to take flexible spells like this anyways, I don't think Heighten is worth it, just because the few situations where it comes up isn't worth the +2-3 on the save DC in exchange for the higher-level slot. Heighten is probably more worthwhile than Enlarge, though.
solbergb 06-04-05, 02:12 AM	Arcane preparation can handle this if absolutely needed. Still, a (prepared) silent teleport is the best way out of a grapple that I can think of. I'll also mention that I actually like Mage of the Arcane Order. Is the the strongest possible choice? No. But the cost of feats results in an insurance against not having a needed spell. With this class there is never a utiltiy spell that is needed that can't be simply called up. This helps enormously. JACD I prefer limited wish myself as insurance against the spells known. You want it anyway, it doesn't need finicky components and the xp cost is minimal at those levels. That said, a sorcerer without spell prep is going to want a contingent spell to get out of a silenced grapple situation. Or a little help from his friends. I just don't like spell prep on a sorcerer, anti-CO as that is. I just hate spending an extra feat to be more like a wizard. It just bugs me. And taking a PRC that makes me even MORE like a wizard just isn't appealing. If I want to play a wizard, I play a wizard. Sorcerers...the fun of them is their stuff is on tap, 24x7, as long as the spell slots hold out. With swift action spells I can get my "quicken" action so it only breaks down with still spell/grapple and similar situations. Even then, equipment or the rest of the party just knowing you have that weakness and busting you out of it (a dispel solves silence nicely, for example, allowing you to limited wish your way out of damn near anything else if you lack the right spell).
solbergb 06-04-05, 02:26 AM	Ok a lot to respond to. 1. There are always a category of foes weaker than the PC's, that use numbers to compensate for individual strength. These tend to be vulnerable to tactical fighting and to save or XXX effects. 2. Even multiclassed "classed" characters rarely have all 3 good saves. You may need to do some research if all L20 NPC's are multiclassed to know which save is bad though. 3. The typical lead-with-disjunction (or similar lesser spell) that parties tend to use bring back the utility of the save or die and/or grapple-trip versus spell-oriented defenses. Also, quite frankly, if they are dim-dooring out of the grapple, your grappler just wasted the actions of the caster for a turn, which is a good thing all by itself. Most of the defenses have counters other than a raw dispel. Freedom of movement does nothing against a trip or disarm, for example, anticipate teleport or dimensional anchor can mess up teleport-based defenses and force or transdimensional effects can undo the benefits of blinking away. 4. Shadow magic, and its Phantasmal Killer cousin is the poster child for wanting as high save DC's as possible. Especially if you don't want to tie up a bunch of spells known with it. With heighten spell, you can take limited wish instead of greater shadow conjuration and still have decent save DC's on the lower level conjurations. You'll still want the bigger shadow spells someday, swapped out for lower level ones, but you get the benefit for 6 levels, as you cycle into higher level slots and delay the spell upgrade to get a wider variety of effects. Ph Killer has no higher level effect until level 9, so it also benefits greatly from using a higher level slot. 5. I also dislike Flaming Sphere, and I really dislike it on a spont caster (for a wiz it eeks out his limited spell slots for more actions in the level 3-4 range). I have never understood the fascination everyone has with this spell. It is a poor arcane cousin to spiritual weapon, and even that spell is of minimal utility past level 6 or so. 6. I do not disagree that casters dominate higher levels due to other effects than save-or-xxx but just assuming they have no place is like saying a lower level caster should never bother with direct damage spells. In the latter case, if the BBEG is at one hitpoint, the spell that is needed is acid splash or magic missile, not anything fancy. In the high level case, there are setup spells that strip defenses and/or suppress saves. There are also going to be at least some minion types that have bad saves, even at CR20. Not having any save-or-xxx spells in your arsenal means you can't take advantage of those situations, any more than a fighter who has given up on grappling will not seize the opportunity to shut down the fully dispelled or dimensionally locked caster type.
Quale 06-04-05, 09:41 AM	Oo I can't tell you how much I enjoy this discussion, I'm learning aLOT. Thanks again guys for participating. The fact that several experienced people debate points here shows that the thread is not taking up space merely for my personal needs, which is what I hoped for. Let me get right down to business. Lots of things to adress. They are actually better on a sorcerer, because there is no opportunity cost for making use of the feat. Huge point and really the most central element in my facination for the class. I think it's good to define the sorcerer as something else and something more than a wizard with flaws. I bet alot of people would build a sorcerer based on their experience with playing a wizard. I'll also mention that I actually like Mage of the Arcane Order. Is the the strongest possible choice? No. But the cost of feats results in an insurance against not having a needed spell. With this class there is never a utiltiy spell that is needed that can't be simply called up. This helps enormously. I agree. I too like Mage of the Arcane Order. You basically get to access a spell or two a day that may be the difference between life and death or stagnation or progress for the entire party, for the cost of one feat. Still I have chosen to be without it this time and I have done so to try and see what it's like playing a character that is optimizing the Sorcerers strengths rather than focusing on overcoming it's weaknesses. Sure, if your DM doesn't min-max at all, spells with saves might work, but at least in the games I play in, the DMs are as good at min-max as the players. First let me say that I have tremendous respect for Iaimeki's work. I have read some of his other posts and this guy really does that min/maxing so I have to go take a shower after having tried to follow one of his builds. But these explanations have really shown me now that he plays the game under seriously different conditions than me. There are no min/maxers in my campaign, least of all the DM's. The DM's write stories and spend their time and effort on the settings, not on beating players who are trying to beat the system. Furthermore, since we're never really high level, the DM doesn't have to min/max anything to make things exciting for us. Just add more mobs or toss in a big'un or make the circumstances tricky for the party and voila, we're on the knife-edge. By definition, this character will not be a min/max'ed character but rather a, hopefully, optimized Sorcerer within the somewhat limiting parameters that exist for it's creation. Well, if that's the case . . . though usually in those circumstances, I'd make a study of moving out of the silence's range. Do you do a lot of dungeon fighting or otherwise have restricted movement? I can see why you'd want it, though, and as solbergb notes, Silent Spell is much better for a spontaneous caster. Yeah we fight with restricted movement in large spaces too. We fight as one unit and stay together. Partly because of the setting and partly because of other things that are a bit too lengthy to go into here. We will also often be the source of the silence ourselves and have the option of carrying it with us to keep the casting mobs close to us and the silence etc. I'm pretty sure this will come in handy ALL the time in this setting and if it doesn't I will come forth at a later date and admit it and accept beating and taunting. 8) The power of incantatrix comes from three abilities: cooperative metamagic, metamagic effect, and metamagic spell trigger. The most potent use of metamagic effect is to turn short-duration spells into all-day buffs using Persistent Spell. I disagree, but again this is all probably due to the differences in the conditions we are playing under. The players and DM's in this setting doesn't like people who run around all day with long lasting or persistent effects on them unless they are very discreet. They find it vulgar and unfitting in the setting. Furthermore, we don't really need it that much. Granted it's always nice not to have to buff before or at the start of a battle from a tempo tactical perspective, but it's not a necessity in order for us to survive and not always being buffed creates diversity in the experience of the nature of each battle. The battles rarely outlast even the shorter duration buffs and we rarely fight more than once a day. It's the same with magic items I suppose, we don't carry that many and will often redistribute the ones we have in order to fit our tactics for the particular situation. So you see, we play under very different circumstances. Call it a low key or poor mans D&D 8) The damage is not that impressive It isn't mindblowingly good for sure. But it is a potential 2d6 every round (A potential that is much bigger in my setting than in yours) For 5-6 rounds that comes in addition to whatever other things I'm doing to make life uncomfortable for them. Also, I dare suggest that it's much harder psychologically to park a mob adjacent to me in a square that is burning than it is parking it there knowing that I will probably cast spells on it. It's just not natural for a mob to stand in a burning square if it's got alternatives and that's part of my plan for personal defense. they can walk around it They can't if that is the one open square in the group front line formation, which will be a very typical thing in my experience. The fact that I can move it around if I don't have that need only makes it better. My estimate is based partly on the spell's short lifetime: it might be good when you first get it, but I think it will turn into dead slot only two or so levels later. Again from my perspective nr. Of rounds = to level is alot longer than instant, but other than that, no arguments on the prospect of exchanging it. I just hate spending an extra feat to be more like a wizard. It just bugs me. I don't blame you. Like I pointed out earlier, for this build I'm really into trying to play on the Sorc's strengths rather than diminishing it's weaknesses. Who knows I might end up hating it, but if I'm gonna try a real Sorc, let me play one that function as one. I also dislike Flaming Sphere, :weep: Great, now I gotta go against two of my favourite analysts. Have you no heart? :D Lots and lots of points I didn't comment on, but for the sake of anyone trying to actually read this... Sincerely,
Squirrelloid 06-05-05, 02:43 AM	On persistent spell: Nothing says you *have* to use the spell just because its active. You need not fly every round just because you have it active. There are a number of otherwise subtle spells that are really handy when persistent - greater magic weapon, magic vestment, blindsight/darkvision/see invis/etc... (Cast by your friendly cleric or wizard), Divine Power (nothing overt about this), Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (ok, its a 7th cleric spell, but omg is it good), Detect Magic, etc etc. And you won't always be places where you have to worry about mobs of people thinking your use of magic is vulgar. When in the wilderness or dungeon crawling, who cares if you are always displaced, mage armored, imp blinking, etc.... The uses for persistent spell are incredibly diverse - take a look at the spell list for persistentable spells, there are quite a few. Frankly, in a world where the use of magic can be *vulgar*, what is the DM doing allowing you to use Incantatrix. Incantatrix is the ultimate abuse magic PrC, where vulgar is second nature and done as a matter of course. I mean, its from Faerun, a gratuitously high magic setting, and exemplifies the limits to which magic use can be pushed. If 'excessive' use of persistent isn't appropriate, that PrC isn't appropriate. Further, no incantatrix can be considered optimized without persistent. Its what the class does. There is no reason to be an incantatrix without it. Unless of course you want to pretend you really wanted to be an artificer with metamagic spell trigger, and then you should be playing an artificer. And you should still pick up persistent, because you can, and its just that good. Spells: Web is much better than the sphere at battlefield control. As is slow. Saves: Correct attention to saves makes your worst save virtually infallible. And everyone should do this. Why? No one wants to fail a save and die. At early levels you don't have the cash to pull this off, but by 12th level at the latest, don't expect monsters to fail saves, and by 18th, they won't. Masses of monsters are trivial. Dont choose spells for them. Its the BBEG who will be annoying. Masses will be pounded by Evard's Black Tentacles, and held up by summons. Thats really all you need specifically for them, and those work well against BBEGs too. And there's always limited wish against the unwashed masses if you really need something else. (Or Gr Shadow Conjuration of a cloud spell).
Quale 06-05-05, 09:22 AM	Appreciate your response Squirreloid. Nothing says you *have* to use the spell just because its active. You need not fly every round just because you have it active. Excellent point. It would be the use of the spell that determines how it's recieved. Frankly, in a world where the use of magic can be *vulgar*, what is the DM doing allowing you to use Incantatrix. From a purely logical/objective point of view, there is no really good explanation why many of my fellow players generally dislike high magic/high fantasy, but choose to play D&D Faerun. I have adressed this issue countless times asking the different DM's to either embrace the nature of the system and the world they play or play another system or world that cooperates with their need to tone down everything, but to no avail. Result: I get to play Incantater and the DM get to hate all the fantastic things I can do with it. :D There is no reason to be an incantatrix without it. Thinking you may be getting a little too categorical here, I'm tempted to ask what other Prestige classes allow me to modify all kinds of spells with all kinds of metamagic. That said, I'm definately not discarding Persistent. Spells: Web is much better than the sphere at battlefield control. As is slow. Many good reasons why I won't choose Web. The Sphere is not supposed to replace Web and isn't supposed to be a major battlefield control either. It's an OK damage spell that can also be used for a number of other things, including discouraging mobs from parking next to me. Slow is 3rd level. The sphere will probably get swapped at level 8 but will hopefully serve me well before then. The DM is also expected to RP his mobs and it had better be a truly nasty mob that finds it natural to enter and stay in a burning square of which it does not know the nature. I haven't yet recieved any good arguments why the sphere sucks and until then it stays as my only damage spell on level 5. Saves: Correct attention to saves makes your worst save virtually infallible. In light of how I have described the premises of the setting in question, I have no idea what this means. Masses of monsters are trivial. Dont choose spells for them. Its the BBEG who will be annoying. You should have seen what I did to these guys with a big band of tactical goblins. :D My experience with this (which again, consists of low to low-mid level play) is exactly the oposite. Nearly all the easy fights were against the big'uns and nearly all the tough fights were against the swarms. In fact, in our group, shaving off the numbers is considered a typical arcane caster job while taking our the big'uns are left to the others. (Something I might add they do an excellent job of) Masses will be pounded by Evard's Black Tentacles Yes they will, which would be another reason why I'm not choosing Web. :) Sincerely,
cowdragon 07-01-05, 09:27 AM	Since you have access to CA, might I suggest a Gold Draconic Heritage? You could put your feats into this and get some nifty abilities. Heal as a class skill. Maybe limited flight. Natural AC boost. Claw attack as a free action. Bonus Spells. Breath Weapon!!! Energy resistance. There's so much you could do. The Cowdragon :mage:
Quale 07-01-05, 11:27 AM	might I suggest a Gold Draconic Heritage? You might. 8-) Would I take them? No. It is my personal opinion that they suck and even if I had feats to spare, which I really don't, I still wouldn't have to search long to find something more useful and a heck of a lot cheaper than these. Between metamagic feats, save and save DC oriented feats, Prestigeclass requirements and what have you, the Draconic line's got a long, long way to go measuring up. Please prove me wrong, nothing would delight me more. Thanks for the suggestion though. Sincerely,
Griff_Goodbeard 07-01-05, 11:34 AM	I think that Draconic Breath (which has Draconic Heritage as a pre req) is worth it. For my sorc, it free'd up spells known, b/c I knew I had a reliable direct damage attack. It also opened up metabreath spells, my favorites being blinding breath and dispeling breath. I haven't been overly taken with a lot of the other draconic feats from CA , but Cowdragon, I saw the draconic feats you came up with over on the skills/feats forum, and I like them.
Kurama Youko 07-01-05, 03:19 PM	Size & Type: Medium Humanoid (Human) Hit Dice: 15d8 Iniatitive: Speed: 30ft Armor Class: Base Attack Bonus/Grapple: Attack: Full Attack: Space / Reach: 5ft Special Attack: Spells, Special Qualities: Energy Resistance 15, Saves: Fort: + Ref: + Will: + (+5 vs Sleep and Paralysis, and Cold Effects) Abilities: Skills: Disguise, Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Profession, Spellcraft Feats: (B)Air Bloodline, 1st-Draconic Heritage, 3rd-Draconic Breath, 6th-Draconic Resistance, 9th-Energy Substitution, 12th-Draconic Power, 15th-Draconic Legacy Environment: Mountain Organization: Solo Challenge Rating: 15 Treasure: Standard Alignment: Advancement: Level Adjustment: +0 Spells Known: 0th- Detect Magic, Flare, Ray of Frost, Touch of Fatigue, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Disrupt Undead, Message 1st- Shield, Grease, Comprehend Languages, Hold Portal, *Obscuring Mist *Feather Fall, *Magic Missile 2nd- Wings of Air, Sorching Ray, See Invisibility, Touch of Idiocy, *Gust of Wind, 3rd- Greater Magic Weapon, Draconic Breath, Vampiric Touch, *Wind Wall. 4th- Dimension Door, Enervation, Celestial Brillance, *Shout, 5th- Draconic Polymorph, Wall of Force, Flight of the Dragon, *Telekinesis, *Air Walk, 6th- Greater Dispel Magic, Starmantle, *Control Winds, 7th- Reality Maelstrom, *Ethereal Jaunt, This builds leaves you 5 levels to what ever you want with, but it assumes you use the Battle Sorcerer variant from the Unearthed Arcana. It also requires a feat from Dragon Magazine 313 or 310.. its the one with bloodline feats for Sorcerers. The * denotes spells that were gained by feats, the majority that are transportation related or wind related are from the Air Bloodline feat, the one I find the most useful/interesting. * also denotes the Draconic Legacy feat which grants 3 spells as well depending on the variant of dragon. I like it alot for this outline i used the silver dragon I believe, why I did that is because one of the spells that feat grants is already given by the Air Bloodline feat, so you get to choose another spell from the sorcerer list in its place. :) The suggested spells are just that suggestion truthly, I dont think to many PrC mesh well with the Battle Sorcerer, and those two feats I choose pretty much made up for the lost known spells.
solbergb 07-01-05, 06:30 PM	I think that Draconic Breath (which has Draconic Heritage as a pre req) is worth it. For my sorc, it free'd up spells known, b/c I knew I had a reliable direct damage attack. It also opened up metabreath spells, my favorites being blinding breath and dispeling breath. I haven't been overly taken with a lot of the other draconic feats from CA , but Cowdragon, I saw the draconic feats you came up with over on the skills/feats forum, and I like them. Yeah. Draconic Breath can mean you can do without most direct damage spells, and you also have a sort of grapple/silence/manacled/etc-contingency since you can breathe on the guy who grabbed you, if nothing else. It is also SU, so there will be no SR to worry about. Draconic flight is a decent substitute for Swift Fly, it works backward from it but can be allright. The draconic fear one has its points too, since it is essentially a zero opportunity cost fear spell to anyone under your hd who gets too close. Pretty much if you like the skill given by the bottom feat (Heritage) and you like the spells known added by the top feat (Legacy) then the middle feats might be worth it (my favorite three are breath, flight and fear, but there is a DC boosting one too that is ok too) A draconic sorcerer though...that's what he's doing. He won't have enough feats for much else.
cowdragon 07-02-05, 01:51 AM	Yeah, it takes the few feats you've gotten, but I would say that at least the Draconic Breath is worth it. Although Draconic Resistance rocks too. It can never be dispelled. Draconic Breath is sooo great though, it frees up your spell selection so you can take more utility and buff spells. You don't need attack spells for awhile. And even then, maybe just one long range(if you went 30'cane) or one area(if you went 60' line) and you're set. Draconic Claw is great for free attacks. Imagine, a 5th level sorcerer casting Chill Touch on a foe. He then gets to claw him again for claw AND Chill Touch damages. You just tripled your round 1 damage. Draconic Power is one of the few ways in the game to bump the save DC's of your spells. It also does one better than Spell Focus by also bumping your caster level. Not too shabby. And every time you take another feat, your Draconic Heritage gives you another +1 to resist your own element, sleep effects, and paralysis effects. Many of the other ones gets better too. In conclusion, I highly recommend these feats for any sorcerer build. Too valuable. Even if you only take three or four, you could still fit in Empower Spell or Improved Initiative. Good gaming. The Cowdragon :mage:
beaver1024 07-02-05, 05:40 AM	Empower is popular because it gives, typically, a bigger damage boost per spell level needed than Maximize. In some cases, it can actually do better than maximize. An empowered fireball vs a maximized fireball (at 10th caster level) would do (on average) 52.5 versus 60. A non metamagiced fireball does (on average) 35. Thus, for a 2 lvl adjustment you get an extra 17.5 damage, and for a 3 lvl adjustment you get an extra 25. Thats an increase of 8.75 per spell level used for Empower, and 8.33 per spell level for Maximize. The difference increases as damage dice increases. At 15 d6s, the Empower gives an increase of 13.12 per spell level, and maximize gives 12.5 per spell level. Empower works best with spells that give additional nonvariable damage, as it will empower that part as well. For instance, an empowered ray of enfeeblement (10th caster level) does (on average) 12.75 str, whereas a maximized ray of enfeeblement does 11 str. So, given that empower only uses a slot 2 higher, whereas maximize uses one 3 higher, its usually a better choice, and allows you to metamagic higher level spells earlier than maximize does. In addition Empower has 1 major characteristic that makes far far better than Maximise. It multiplies constant values added to the variable. ie With Magic Missile's 1d4+1, the whole lot is multiplied.
beaver1024 07-02-05, 05:53 AM	As a sorcerer, by the way I think you're in for a lot of frustration going this route but anyway, your major limitation is your spells known. As such each of your offensive spell selection must be able to target as wide a cross-section of the opponent population as possible. This is why you should try to avoid spells that depend heavily on saves because Sorcerers have been nerfed heavily in that area. Additionally one important nerf you have to understand is that for encounters that are supposed to be challenging to your party only your highest level offensive spells are supposed to matter. This makes the sorcerer's narrow selection bite even more. One of the PrC I see that you may not have considered is the Archmage. The archmage can provide your sorcerer with some options to increase flexibility better than Mage of the Arcane Order. Hence Sorc 5/Incantrix 10/Arcm 5 is a decent and common progression.
beaver1024 07-02-05, 05:57 AM	I stand by this statement for NPCs with class levels, too. While monsters have huge numbers of HD, NPCs can buy +save items just like PCs. With something like 75k at 20th level (which is a fair chuck of an NPC's cash, but not by any means all of the cash of a typical NPC of that level; admittedly, my play groups have discovered that NPCs with only "standard" cash at that level get destroyed by PCs, so we tend to do the undertreasure-some-encounters-so-you-can-overequip-others thing), you can get +10 to all saves. If the NPC is multiclassed at all like a typical character is and has other save boosters (feats, decent abilities, etc.), you're often looking at saves in the high 20s or low 30s (say, +12 for a save, +10 for items, +5 for ability, +2 for feat/class ability = +29). Given that the maximum DC possible for a 9th-level spell is, in most cases, 10 + 9 (spell level) + 12 (34 in key spellcasting ability) + 2 (Spell Focus feats) = 33, this is, IMO, not good enough to justify investing in spells that require saves. Sure, if your DM doesn't min-max at all, spells with saves might work, but at least in the games I play in, the DMs are as good at min-max as the players. The other issue to consider along this line is that a lot of the spells with saves have immunities available: death ward, soulfire (BoED), or have the undead type for death effects; mind blank, occult slayer, or any of several type for mind-affecting effects, and so forth. No-save spells are also hurt by these, but not, in my experience, to the same degree. Obviously, everything is relative to experience. If your DM likes to run fighter 20s who eschew magic items, well, your experience will be very different than mine =). I'm merely pointing out that PCs at high levels can have basically impenetrable saves, that NPCs designed along similar lines can achieve saves that aren't much worse, and that monsters have high saves because of high base abilities and large numbers of hit dice. This is so true. I just thought I quote it for emphasis. I'm usually the DM and there are no sorc/wiz in my high level games.
canadianguy 07-17-05, 04:42 AM	Hi, Have you thought about vow of poverty and the saint template?
Quale 07-17-05, 07:36 AM	Have you thought about vow of poverty Hi. Yes I have. The problem I have with VoP is that the bonus feats must be excalted. Looking at the excalted feat list, I don't see alot of good feats for this build, in fact I don't see alot of good feats at all. Or to be more precise; I don't see alot of good feats that aren't blocked by some very specific class-oriented requirements. The same problem arise with the Excalted Arcanist. If these gave just any bonus feat, both of them would be alot more tempting. As it stands I have a hard time even figuring if in fact there are not more excalted bonus feats from VoP than excalted feats I'd qualify for. Couple of other points: Draconic: Allright the breath isn't all that bad I guess. Still pretty feat demanding and I still have too few feats even without it. If I hadn't gone Incantater and didn't have the same need for metamagic selection, I might have selected it. Persistent: Quickly figured out that I won't have any chance whatsoever actually applying persistent to any spell before I have boosted my spellcraft thus my level, which makes it doubly mysterious why I recieved so much flak for not having picked it in my lower levels set-up.