3.5 whips > spiked chain? [Archive] - Wizards Community

3.5 whips > spiked chain? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
kyril
01-26-05, 01:26 AM If 3.5 whips are now considered melee weapons, why doesnt everyone use them instead of the spiked chain? you have better reach. What am i missing!
Random Hero
01-26-05, 01:31 AM its - not a melee - or a ranged in 3.5

It dosent Threaten - provokes AoO if used when threatened - Deals No dmg if target wears armor.

Whip is great - i love it - but spiked chain is a better trip/strip weapon cause its a melee< no AoO >, its 2 handed < +4 disarm > and does dmg =/
kyril
01-26-05, 01:38 AM ok, when i say whip i assume everyone knows i mean a whip dagger, or an equivalent that actually does damage. Whips arent melee or ranged? if thats what your saying that doesnt make sense.
Random Hero
01-26-05, 01:49 AM well - in 3.0 is was a ranged weapon - with 15' max range. Now - its kinda a mixture between Melee and ranged. If that makes sense - its a Melee weapon - so can use Melee feats, but its got all the Ranged weapon drawbacks
allenchan
01-26-05, 02:28 AM Spiked chains are used because people provoke AoOs for just being in the same room as you practically. Whips dont let you threaten, so you cant aao everything.

Whip daggers arent in 3.5 iirc.

And as for whips:
Whip: A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. They're crap. 'nuff said.
Expanded Psion
01-26-05, 05:24 AM And they deal less damage.And they cannot be used in adjacent targets (i think).And they are also exotic weapons except for bards (who are better off not using a whip anyway:D).And spiked chains are cooler :D The only thing that could appeal for them is the 15-ft reach but the lack of adjacent targets and the fact that they provoke AoOs make them extremelly weak compared to spiked chains.
Zherog
01-26-05, 11:27 AM A whip can be used on adjacent targets. The biggest downside to the whip is not being able to damage people in armor, or those with natural armor. The next biggest downside is not actually threatening any of those squares you can attack into. The third biggest disadvantage is provoking an AoO everytime you use it.
lokkesmadr
01-26-05, 12:33 PM Whips are very handy if you have whirlwind attack since you attack everything within your reach, not everything you threaten, thus allowing you to hit many targets. The downside is all the targets that threaten you will get AoO on every attack you make. Perhaps combined with Karmic Strike? (Can you make AoO during a whirlwind attack, since an AoO interrupts the normal combat sequence?)
Jell_Moo
01-26-05, 02:08 PM Because Bards are automatically proficient with them, they can be pretty useful for the Bard, providing the Bard has a nice beefy tank mate to use for cover.

The Bard can stay 15ft away, safely out of full attack reach, and trip and disarm the opponents. WHile this isn't by any means a pure gold strategy, it's pretty useful, and keeps the relatively fragile Bard pretty safe.
WolfHeart
01-26-05, 03:29 PM Ok well has anyone ever tried a whip (yes i know they are severly nerfed in 3.5) with a magic bonus fire/frost, bane(evil), holy? you know put some real damage on it. You should get the damage from the addons what about somehting like knock back if it can be put on meele(not sure if it can be, i only use it for bows) how about bringing back the barbed/spiked whips?

there are things that can be done to them even if it is a last resort say if you get disarmed.

or heck have a wiz craft you one with spell storing.. chain lightning?
hold person/monster? any of the touch attach spells that you don't want to get close enough to use. whats the one that turns you target to stone?

what about these ideas guys?
PhaedrusXY
01-26-05, 03:38 PM I like the spellstoring whip idea, but you can only put up to 3rd level spells in a spellstoring weapon. This is a good compromise if the DM rules that you can't make spellstoring ammunition or ranged weapons.
lurch_E_bean
01-26-05, 04:52 PM The only real reason to use a whip (a whip dagger at that even) is if you're using the Lasher PrC (Sword and Fist). That gets rid of most of the drawbacks of the whip, you can damage armored people, threaten adjacent squares, get an effective rapid shot/flurry feat with it, sneak attack with it, and stunning attack with it, not to mention free improved trip and improved disarm with a whip.

I did this for our City of the Spider Queen campaign, but only because we started at level 10 and I didn't have to suffer through the lower levels with a HORRIBLE weapon, plus I got to dump a bunch of enhancements on it. A +1 Screaming (+1d6 sonic) Corrosive (+1d6 Acid) Mighty (+4 str) Whip Dagger is nothing to sneeze at. Also I got to use the ranged weapon feats on it (as far as I and the DM could tell the whip was to be treated as a ranged weapon in 3.0). Point Blank Shot is great when your maximum range is 15'.
jetmaster007
01-26-05, 06:37 PM Check this link for a great build with the new whips:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=368033
Bonzai
01-26-05, 06:41 PM I am playing with the idea of a whip weilding Swashbuckler/wizard/spellsword. The idea being that with the weapon finess +Int bonus+ spell channeling would make a whip weilder much more interesting. Still might make it a spiked chain instead though. I'll admit, my whole inspiration for the idea was to be able to channel Otto's irresistable dance through a whip and yell "Dance monkey, Dance"!. lol
Eyeless Blond
01-26-05, 07:08 PM Check this link for a great build with the new whips:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=368033
Even in this build you have to put in the first two levels of Lasher to be useful at all. It's a big design problem if the only way to make an exotic weapon worth the feat you spend on it is by taking a PrC that is not only missing from core D&D, but technically is completely absent from 3.5e entirely. This is of course beside the fact that you have to be at level 7 before you can even have the relevant PrC levels, making your first 5 levels a misery.

Honestly I love the whip, and I'd love to see it be useful, but honestly the arguments for it are a bit specious.
Ivarrius
01-26-05, 07:26 PM Whip is good for casters who want to do touch attacks.

Stay 15 feet away, behind the line of tanks, or other characters, and touch with your whip.

Also good for control from behind the tanks, take the trip feats and keep your enemies on their butts.
Zherog
01-26-05, 08:50 PM Whip is good for casters who want to do touch attacks.

Stay 15 feet away, behind the line of tanks, or other characters, and touch with your whip.

Unless there's a feat I don't know about (wouldn't surprise me), you can't deliver a touch attack with a weapon (other than an unarmed strike, of course).
Ivarrius
01-26-05, 09:25 PM Hmm... maybe it was a house rule my dm implemented. If so, I apologize for typing it out. didn't mean to confuse anyone.

Though the trip idea I KNOW is legal ;)
Zherog
01-26-05, 09:53 PM Trip is definitely legal. :)

And there certainly might be a class feature or a feat somewhere I'm just not familiar with. That wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Nazzareth
01-27-05, 04:37 AM A spell storing whip can give you a bit of extra reach for your touch spells.
Enaloindir
01-27-05, 05:14 AM Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already.

The whip still has to inflict damage to be able to use the Spell Storing trick :(

Enaloindir
jetmaster007
01-27-05, 10:29 AM Even in this build you have to put in the first two levels of Lasher to be useful at all. It's a big design problem if the only way to make an exotic weapon worth the feat you spend on it is by taking a PrC that is not only missing from core D&D, but technically is completely absent from 3.5e entirely. This is of course beside the fact that you have to be at level 7 before you can even have the relevant PrC levels, making your first 5 levels a misery.

Honestly I love the whip, and I'd love to see it be useful, but honestly the arguments for it are a bit specious.

Well you realize you don't have to actually use the whip until you get lasher right? Just use it as a tripping weapon and when you need to do some actual damage just drop it and pull out a sword. Sure this makes the feat not too well spent in the beginning, but the first 5 levels or so are really forgiving. You can basically have any build you want and still be semi-effective. Honestly, with any fighter type build with a decent attack rating, I don't ever recall "my first 5 levels being a misery."
kyril
03-02-05, 12:07 AM The whip still has to inflict damage to be able to use the Spell Storing trick :(

Enaloindir

That doesn't quite make sense. The whip does damage...its just all absorbed. So I definately think you could use spellstoring. Its not like the whip has to have blood or something to channel it...
Alien Rope Burn
03-02-05, 01:12 AM The Maiden of Pain (Player's Guide to Faerun) has the Lasher ability at first level, which lets the character use a whip to inflict touch spells. A Cleric 5 / Maiden of Pain 10 / Lasher 5 could be pretty formidable, able to do whip sneak attacks with spells attached. Of course, it'd be a bit harder to get those sneak attacks since it doesn't threaten... Lasher could really use a revision, for that very reason.
crazysamaritan
03-02-05, 01:18 AM if it was a +1 shocking whip, would it deal just the d6 of shocking damage? Or nothing at all?
vjcsmoke
03-03-05, 01:38 PM Assuming that your opponent is armored or has natural AC, the whip would deal D6 energy damage.
Baneslayer
03-03-05, 02:21 PM The Whip Bard actually sounds pretty good, a good support character for the tank.

One thing I don't understand is why you can't wrap it around someone's neck and do a ranged grapple with it.
NobertJoe
03-03-05, 02:51 PM I dont have my books with me, but there is a whip in one of the texts that has bits of glass imbedded in it. It might be one of the oriental adventures? It does damage, and otherwise you have al the same restrictions and benfits of a whip.
DM Denubis
03-03-05, 04:11 PM One of my facorite characters was a Bard/Fighter. He used a whip to terrible, terrible ends. Although he very rarely dealt any actual damage in combat, it wasn't much fun trying to fight him, seeing as how he would disarm and trip anyone who got too close. Along with Rapid Shot, so he'd gain another attack (Disarm/Trip). Of course, he also used a shortsword in his off hand, so he could infight a little bit. Unless, of course, he was using two whips at once for maximum trips and disarms. And there was this one time where he sundered someone's spear with them. They had some form of energy damage, so he broke it fairly easily.

Denubis
SpartanMD
03-03-05, 06:19 PM Whip is good for casters who want to do touch attacks.

Stay 15 feet away, behind the line of tanks, or other characters, and touch with your whip.

Also good for control from behind the tanks, take the trip feats and keep your enemies on their butts.

A Warlock with a whip could use Hideous Blow.....just a thought.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kyril 01-26-05, 01:26 AM	If 3.5 whips are now considered melee weapons, why doesnt everyone use them instead of the spiked chain? you have better reach. What am i missing!
Random Hero 01-26-05, 01:31 AM	its - not a melee - or a ranged in 3.5 It dosent Threaten - provokes AoO if used when threatened - Deals No dmg if target wears armor. Whip is great - i love it - but spiked chain is a better trip/strip weapon cause its a melee< no AoO >, its 2 handed < +4 disarm > and does dmg =/
kyril 01-26-05, 01:38 AM	ok, when i say whip i assume everyone knows i mean a whip dagger, or an equivalent that actually does damage. Whips arent melee or ranged? if thats what your saying that doesnt make sense.
Random Hero 01-26-05, 01:49 AM	well - in 3.0 is was a ranged weapon - with 15' max range. Now - its kinda a mixture between Melee and ranged. If that makes sense - its a Melee weapon - so can use Melee feats, but its got all the Ranged weapon drawbacks
allenchan 01-26-05, 02:28 AM	Spiked chains are used because people provoke AoOs for just being in the same room as you practically. Whips dont let you threaten, so you cant aao everything. Whip daggers arent in 3.5 iirc. And as for whips: Whip: A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes). Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon. They're crap. 'nuff said.
Expanded Psion 01-26-05, 05:24 AM	And they deal less damage.And they cannot be used in adjacent targets (i think).And they are also exotic weapons except for bards (who are better off not using a whip anyway:D).And spiked chains are cooler :D The only thing that could appeal for them is the 15-ft reach but the lack of adjacent targets and the fact that they provoke AoOs make them extremelly weak compared to spiked chains.
Zherog 01-26-05, 11:27 AM	A whip can be used on adjacent targets. The biggest downside to the whip is not being able to damage people in armor, or those with natural armor. The next biggest downside is not actually threatening any of those squares you can attack into. The third biggest disadvantage is provoking an AoO everytime you use it.
lokkesmadr 01-26-05, 12:33 PM	Whips are very handy if you have whirlwind attack since you attack everything within your reach, not everything you threaten, thus allowing you to hit many targets. The downside is all the targets that threaten you will get AoO on every attack you make. Perhaps combined with Karmic Strike? (Can you make AoO during a whirlwind attack, since an AoO interrupts the normal combat sequence?)
Jell_Moo 01-26-05, 02:08 PM	Because Bards are automatically proficient with them, they can be pretty useful for the Bard, providing the Bard has a nice beefy tank mate to use for cover. The Bard can stay 15ft away, safely out of full attack reach, and trip and disarm the opponents. WHile this isn't by any means a pure gold strategy, it's pretty useful, and keeps the relatively fragile Bard pretty safe.
WolfHeart 01-26-05, 03:29 PM	Ok well has anyone ever tried a whip (yes i know they are severly nerfed in 3.5) with a magic bonus fire/frost, bane(evil), holy? you know put some real damage on it. You should get the damage from the addons what about somehting like knock back if it can be put on meele(not sure if it can be, i only use it for bows) how about bringing back the barbed/spiked whips? there are things that can be done to them even if it is a last resort say if you get disarmed. or heck have a wiz craft you one with spell storing.. chain lightning? hold person/monster? any of the touch attach spells that you don't want to get close enough to use. whats the one that turns you target to stone? what about these ideas guys?
PhaedrusXY 01-26-05, 03:38 PM	I like the spellstoring whip idea, but you can only put up to 3rd level spells in a spellstoring weapon. This is a good compromise if the DM rules that you can't make spellstoring ammunition or ranged weapons.
lurch_E_bean 01-26-05, 04:52 PM	The only real reason to use a whip (a whip dagger at that even) is if you're using the Lasher PrC (Sword and Fist). That gets rid of most of the drawbacks of the whip, you can damage armored people, threaten adjacent squares, get an effective rapid shot/flurry feat with it, sneak attack with it, and stunning attack with it, not to mention free improved trip and improved disarm with a whip. I did this for our City of the Spider Queen campaign, but only because we started at level 10 and I didn't have to suffer through the lower levels with a HORRIBLE weapon, plus I got to dump a bunch of enhancements on it. A +1 Screaming (+1d6 sonic) Corrosive (+1d6 Acid) Mighty (+4 str) Whip Dagger is nothing to sneeze at. Also I got to use the ranged weapon feats on it (as far as I and the DM could tell the whip was to be treated as a ranged weapon in 3.0). Point Blank Shot is great when your maximum range is 15'.
jetmaster007 01-26-05, 06:37 PM	Check this link for a great build with the new whips: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=368033
Bonzai 01-26-05, 06:41 PM	I am playing with the idea of a whip weilding Swashbuckler/wizard/spellsword. The idea being that with the weapon finess +Int bonus+ spell channeling would make a whip weilder much more interesting. Still might make it a spiked chain instead though. I'll admit, my whole inspiration for the idea was to be able to channel Otto's irresistable dance through a whip and yell "Dance monkey, Dance"!. lol
Eyeless Blond 01-26-05, 07:08 PM	Check this link for a great build with the new whips: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=368033 Even in this build you have to put in the first two levels of Lasher to be useful at all. It's a big design problem if the only way to make an exotic weapon worth the feat you spend on it is by taking a PrC that is not only missing from core D&D, but technically is completely absent from 3.5e entirely. This is of course beside the fact that you have to be at level 7 before you can even have the relevant PrC levels, making your first 5 levels a misery. Honestly I love the whip, and I'd love to see it be useful, but honestly the arguments for it are a bit specious.
Ivarrius 01-26-05, 07:26 PM	Whip is good for casters who want to do touch attacks. Stay 15 feet away, behind the line of tanks, or other characters, and touch with your whip. Also good for control from behind the tanks, take the trip feats and keep your enemies on their butts.
Zherog 01-26-05, 08:50 PM	Whip is good for casters who want to do touch attacks. Stay 15 feet away, behind the line of tanks, or other characters, and touch with your whip. Unless there's a feat I don't know about (wouldn't surprise me), you can't deliver a touch attack with a weapon (other than an unarmed strike, of course).
Ivarrius 01-26-05, 09:25 PM	Hmm... maybe it was a house rule my dm implemented. If so, I apologize for typing it out. didn't mean to confuse anyone. Though the trip idea I KNOW is legal ;)
Zherog 01-26-05, 09:53 PM	Trip is definitely legal. :) And there certainly might be a class feature or a feat somewhere I'm just not familiar with. That wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Nazzareth 01-27-05, 04:37 AM	A spell storing whip can give you a bit of extra reach for your touch spells.
Enaloindir 01-27-05, 05:14 AM	Spell Storing: A spell storing weapon allows a spellcaster to store a single targeted spell of up to 3rd level in the weapon. (The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action.) Any time the weapon strikes a creature and the creature takes damage from it, the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature as a free action if the wielder desires. (This special ability is an exception to the general rule that casting a spell from an item takes at least as long as casting that spell normally.) Once the spell has been cast from the weapon, a spellcaster can cast any other targeted spell of up to 3rd level into it. The weapon magically imparts to the wielder the name of the spell currently stored within it. A randomly rolled spell storing weapon has a 50% chance to have a spell stored in it already. The whip still has to inflict damage to be able to use the Spell Storing trick :( Enaloindir
jetmaster007 01-27-05, 10:29 AM	Even in this build you have to put in the first two levels of Lasher to be useful at all. It's a big design problem if the only way to make an exotic weapon worth the feat you spend on it is by taking a PrC that is not only missing from core D&D, but technically is completely absent from 3.5e entirely. This is of course beside the fact that you have to be at level 7 before you can even have the relevant PrC levels, making your first 5 levels a misery. Honestly I love the whip, and I'd love to see it be useful, but honestly the arguments for it are a bit specious. Well you realize you don't have to actually use the whip until you get lasher right? Just use it as a tripping weapon and when you need to do some actual damage just drop it and pull out a sword. Sure this makes the feat not too well spent in the beginning, but the first 5 levels or so are really forgiving. You can basically have any build you want and still be semi-effective. Honestly, with any fighter type build with a decent attack rating, I don't ever recall "my first 5 levels being a misery."
kyril 03-02-05, 12:07 AM	The whip still has to inflict damage to be able to use the Spell Storing trick :( Enaloindir That doesn't quite make sense. The whip does damage...its just all absorbed. So I definately think you could use spellstoring. Its not like the whip has to have blood or something to channel it...
Alien Rope Burn 03-02-05, 01:12 AM	The Maiden of Pain (Player's Guide to Faerun) has the Lasher ability at first level, which lets the character use a whip to inflict touch spells. A Cleric 5 / Maiden of Pain 10 / Lasher 5 could be pretty formidable, able to do whip sneak attacks with spells attached. Of course, it'd be a bit harder to get those sneak attacks since it doesn't threaten... Lasher could really use a revision, for that very reason.
crazysamaritan 03-02-05, 01:18 AM	if it was a +1 shocking whip, would it deal just the d6 of shocking damage? Or nothing at all?
vjcsmoke 03-03-05, 01:38 PM	Assuming that your opponent is armored or has natural AC, the whip would deal D6 energy damage.
Baneslayer 03-03-05, 02:21 PM	The Whip Bard actually sounds pretty good, a good support character for the tank. One thing I don't understand is why you can't wrap it around someone's neck and do a ranged grapple with it.
NobertJoe 03-03-05, 02:51 PM	I dont have my books with me, but there is a whip in one of the texts that has bits of glass imbedded in it. It might be one of the oriental adventures? It does damage, and otherwise you have al the same restrictions and benfits of a whip.
DM Denubis 03-03-05, 04:11 PM	One of my facorite characters was a Bard/Fighter. He used a whip to terrible, terrible ends. Although he very rarely dealt any actual damage in combat, it wasn't much fun trying to fight him, seeing as how he would disarm and trip anyone who got too close. Along with Rapid Shot, so he'd gain another attack (Disarm/Trip). Of course, he also used a shortsword in his off hand, so he could infight a little bit. Unless, of course, he was using two whips at once for maximum trips and disarms. And there was this one time where he sundered someone's spear with them. They had some form of energy damage, so he broke it fairly easily. Denubis
SpartanMD 03-03-05, 06:19 PM	Whip is good for casters who want to do touch attacks. Stay 15 feet away, behind the line of tanks, or other characters, and touch with your whip. Also good for control from behind the tanks, take the trip feats and keep your enemies on their butts. A Warlock with a whip could use Hideous Blow.....just a thought.