Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sudo_Nym 02-21-04, 05:24 PM	Alright, I've got a problem- my party completely lacks Arcane Blasting Power, and I want to fill in the gap (I'm new to the group, so I figure filling the hole will make the players more friendly to me...). Anyway, I want to be a wizard, but I've never really played one, and even then, I didn't play it well. If somebody could help me with some pointers (or even better, a decent build), I'd be really appreciative. There aren't any current roleplaying aspects to this guy yet (help there would also be appreciated). I have access to the PHB, SRD, Draconomicon, BoED, BoVD, and the Fiend Folio. Thanks in advance.
Snow Savant 02-21-04, 05:29 PM	Give us as much as detailed information about your party (their builds and play emphasis), the levels you are starting at, the campaign type you are playing in, and your DM's level of effectiveness (regarding rules knowledge and ajudication for things like Illusions and Divinations). All these criteria points are important for us to give you customized help for your specific situation.
Sudo_Nym 02-21-04, 05:38 PM	Okay. We're first level, and knowing this DM, the campaign will probably go all the way to 20th, possibly epic (even if all the characters we start with don't necessarily last that long...). So far, we've got a Human Fighter (who plans on going with a Speedy Archer build), a Human Cleric (not sure what they are planning on doing), and a Halfling Rogue (who plans on taking ranger levels, and emphasizing 2 weapon sneak attacks). I believe that we'll be playing mostly dungeon crawls, with some riddles, and he likes throwing undead and dragons (especially red dragons of various ages) at us. The DM is a stickler for rules, and will play as "by the book" as he can possible manage. He has a tendency to make the BBEG a chromatic dragon with undead servants, and generally threatens to increase the dragon's age catergory if we try to stretch rules. Don't know if I can get much more detailed than that.
Snow Savant 02-21-04, 05:54 PM	That's helpful information, Sudo_Nym. Sounds like you have a typical iconic party, which is a good thing. Your DM's predilection for dragons and undead can certainly be his undoing. But it does help you considerably in choosing spells, feats, and PrC's. Anyway, I want to be a wizard..I do suggest being a Specialist at level 1. Just for the added spells if anything. That means 2 routes: 1. Diviner = Only 1 opposed School. 2. Other Specialist = 2 opposed Schools. Since undead and dragons are certain to make a lot of appearances, I would take Enchantment as at least one of the opposed schools. You can't enchant the undead and charming/suggesting Dragons can be quite a chore as well, especially at higher levels. Do any of the Specialist schools interest you? Perhaps you have some favourite spells or ones that you feel you would be good at using tactically. Also, will you or the Cleric be doing more of the buffing, utility, and party-friendly spells? Or will you share? Sounds like Cleric will be the de facto "tank" of the group (assuming the Fighter will fight in the backrow via archery). These questions are important, again, to get a bead on your group's dynamic. Snow! :)
Sisyfos 02-21-04, 06:03 PM	Do take a look at the wizard's handbook. There is a link in my signature. It does cover a lot of the basic to pretty advanced stuff about playing and designing wizards. We can customize further anything you find there and fancy.
PhaedrusXY 02-21-04, 07:15 PM	HERE (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=184595&perpage=30&pagenumber=1) is a thread that I'm playing a wizard in a challenge in. It is Core 3.0 rules, but alot of the tricks and things I'm using would work under 3.5 also (except Polymorphing yourself into a Solar and casting two spells a round with Haste :P ). He's 9th level, and if I were playing him in a party instead of in a solo challenge, I wouldn't take the martial weapon proficiency feat for sure. But other than that, I wouldn't change much. I might play a Gnome, Elf, or Dwarf instead, but Human isn't a bad choice at all. In my opinion, the wizard has alot more to offer as a Swiss Army Knife type of character rather than a Blaster. Don't overlook spells like Rope Trick, Obscuring Mist, Summon Monster, Web, and the like. Big, flasy area damage spells are great sometimes, but they are not always the best option.
Cynosure 02-21-04, 08:04 PM	Well if you plan on facing dragons, one spell choice I'd suggest is Lower Spell Resistance in the Draconomicon. One spell and you no longer have to worry about rolling for SR. Also, at level 15 Wiz or 16 Sor you could pick up Sunburst, which really ruins an undeads day. You should also look at Control Undead and Undeath to death if he throws you against hordes of undead, or small undead minions. Not to mention, for some reason, Wall of Fire does double damage to undead creatures. Since your DM has a tendency to pit you against big red lizards, I would most definitely suggest the level 8 spell, Polar Ray. No save, and it does nasty things to creatures with a Fire Subtype. As far as builds go, there are so many choices, I don't even know where to begin. You could go straight Wizard and hit Archmage eventually, or possibly Red Wizard if you're into playing a not-so-nice guy. If you want to get right into the thick of it, since your party lacks a *real* tank; you could go with Eldritch Knight, Spellsword, or better yet, Dragonslayer. If you do choose the martial route, I would suggest sorcerer over wizard, though. I hope that helped some.
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 02-21-04, 08:41 PM	Well if you plan on facing dragons, one spell choice I'd suggest is Lower Spell Resistance in the Draconomicon. One spell and you no longer have to worry about rolling for SR. Also, at level 15 Wiz or 16 Sor you could pick up Sunburst, which really ruins an undeads day. You should also look at Control Undead and Undeath to death if he throws you against hordes of undead, or small undead minions. Not to mention, for some reason, Wall of Fire does double damage to undead creatures. Since your DM has a tendency to pit you against big red lizards, I would most definitely suggest the level 8 spell, Polar Ray. No save, and it does nasty things to creatures with a Fire Subtype. Whoa, Horsey! he's starting at level 1, dude! it will probably be a year before he even thinks about those spells. sudonym, follow sisyphos and snow's advice. and just worry about level 1 for right now. it's also good to have a pow-wow with your other players and plan your future together to make sure you all progress as a team. you know, covering all the bases and everything.
Sudo_Nym 02-21-04, 08:43 PM	Wizard Race: Gray Elf (Same as PHB Elf, but get +2 INT and -2 STR as well) Abilities: STR 10, DEX 15, CON 12, INT 17, WIS 10, CHA 8 Specialization: Conjuration (Forbidden: Illusion and Enchantment)- Undead are immune to illusions and enchantments, and dragons have SR, and I have low CHA anyway Alignment: Neutral Good Thinking of going Wiz 5/Sentinal of Bharrai 10/Archmage 5 (wanted to throw Thaumaturgist in there, but lesser planar ally is cleric only…) All Ability boosts to Intelligence Feats: 1st: Sacred Vow, Scribe Scroll 3rd: Vow of Obedience 5th: Craft Wondrous Item 6th: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Track 9th: Celestial Familiar (Musteval Guardinal) 12th: Spell Focus (Evocation) 15th: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) 18th: Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration) As for Archmage abilities, I was thinking: Spell Power Spell-Like Ability- Greater Teleport 2x/day Spell-Like Ability- Acid Fog 2x/day Mastery of Shaping Arcane Fire At 20th level, I’ll have: INT: 17 (base) +5 (levels) + 6 (Headband of Intellect) +5 (Wish Inherent) =33 Spells Per Day (4/7/7/7/6/3/4/5/5/4), Caster Level 21 Saves (after Cloak of Resistance, which base saves show I’ll have to invest in): Fort +11, Ref +13, Will +20 Skills: Max Concentration, Max Spellcraft, Need at least 15 ranks Knowledge (arcana) and 8 ranks Knowledge (Nature). Will invest in Search after reaching Archmage levels, the rest will probably be spent on various other Knowledge skills. I am worried that I don't have any Metamagic Feats- I may dump Celestal Familar for Empower Spell, or something like that. If I make it to Epic levels, I'll probably take a few levels of fighter (probably 4 to get Weapon Specialization), then go into Eldritch Knight, though to make this happen, I'll have to boost my STR. Not sure what else I can do. This is the Min/Max board, so if anybody has suggestions to make this guy more powerful, more optimized, or just plain better (like I said, I’m new at the wizard thing…), I’d be glad to hear them. The party does lack a true tank, which does worry me, but the cleric is planning on taking spells to buff himself up for combat, which added with his ability to heal himself, he should be able to tank long enough for me to start casting something. Also, the Sentinal of Bharrai levels allow me to shapechange into a bear, so I might be able to help in combat, but I won't be too eager to do so if I don't have to.
JosephKell 02-21-04, 09:17 PM	Originally posted by Dirty Dan the Laundry Man Whoa, Horsey! he's starting at level 1, dude! it will probably be a year before he even thinks about those spells. sudonym, follow sisyphos and snow's advice. and just worry about level 1 for right now. it's also good to have a pow-wow with your other players and plan your future together to make sure you all progress as a team. you know, covering all the bases and everything. You are going on my buddy list!
Cynosure 02-21-04, 09:26 PM	Whoa, Horsey! he's starting at level 1, dude! it will probably be a year before he even thinks about those spells. Yeah, I know, but it's never too early to start planning for the future. :P At least I didn't suggest level 9 spells. :)
PhaedrusXY 02-21-04, 09:45 PM	Master of the Elements is a good Archmage power, especially since you're going to be fighting dragons and might not know when you will get jumped by one of them, or what kind it might be. I don't think Spell-like Ability: Acid Fog is worth having at all. Spell Focus: Conjuration definitely isn't. I am guessing that's a remnant from your plan to be a Thamaturgist? If you take Augment Summoning, it might not be that bad. But I'd leave off the Greater Spell Focus: Conjuration for sure.
Sudo_Nym 02-21-04, 09:51 PM	Like I said, I'm new at Wizardry, so you're going to have to bear with my mistakes. You're right- I just wasn't sure which Archmage power to take. Dumping Acid Fog for Mastery of Elements is a very good idea, now that I think about it. I took Spell Focus (Conjuration) mainly because I plan to specialize in Conjuration, and I need two Spell Focuses to qualify for Archmage. I'll take Augment Summoning instead of Greater Spell Focus, or maybe Quicken Spell.
Snow Savant 02-21-04, 09:58 PM	Sudo_Nym, Looks good! Well though out, and a nice angle with the Sentinel PrC (both cool concept and nice power mechanics). Undead are immune to illusions and enchantments, and dragons have SR, Just to dispel any misconceptions, illusions are actually extremely effective against undead and dragons. Figments, that is. They do not grant SR checks versus their victims (nice against dragons), and untelligent undead have virtually no way of even getting a save attempt against them because of their inability to cognitively "interact" with the figment. Even intelligent undead can be affected by figments. And at higher levels, Shadow magic kicks in. And if you so desire it, the cheese associated with it and spell simulations of Dragon Ally, Lesser Dragon Ally, and Trap the Soul. Not to mention, you never get to cast greater invisibility. :( Spell-Like Ability- Greater Teleport 2x/day You may wish to choose spells that have real expensive casting components/foci (Trap the Soul) and/or prohibitively long casting times (Geas, Scry, Summon Monster). Greater Teleport is one of the best spells in the game. But it only needs a verbal component, so casting it via a (Sp) does not give you a real benefit. Just food for thought. I am worried that I don't have any Metamagic Feats- I may dump Celestal Familar for Empower Spell, or something like that. Well, most metamagick feats suck wind. Empower Spell is publically liked around here. Although I find it completely unneccessary. Just choose your spells smartly. For example, I can always find a better 7th level spell to cast than a 5th level Empowered one. Although I do like Extend Spell (early on) and Quickened Spell (later on). Both would probably be better for you than Musteveal. Although I applaud people for choosing Imp. Familiar for RP or flavour purposes. :) Imp. Initiative is also of great use to you. ** Since you passed on the Spell Penetration and GSP feats, chose spells that do not need SR checks. Go * here * (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=185189&highlight=wall+stone) , to see Ivarrius' thread on applicable spells. Good luck and have fun! Snow :cloud9:
Snow Savant 02-21-04, 10:00 PM	Actually, Spell Focus: Conjuration is *very* good. Save or die spells such as Wall of Stone (hemisphere) & Plane Shift. Web, Grease, etc. All are good. There are many more as well. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Penguin Master 02-22-04, 12:27 AM	I have to agree with Snow, conj is a very vesatile school. Several of the more useful spells are conj: Gate, trap the soul, teleport, the wall spells, cloudkill, evard's black tentacles, web.
VirgilCaine 02-22-04, 12:34 AM	Undead are immune to illusions and enchantments, Undead are not immune to illusions. See Sean K. Reynolds Rant: http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/undeadseethroughillusions.html
PhaedrusXY 02-22-04, 01:52 AM	Originally posted by Penguin Master I have to agree with Snow, conj is a very vesatile school. Several of the more useful spells are conj: Gate, trap the soul, teleport, the wall spells, cloudkill, evard's black tentacles, web. Yes, Conjuration is a great school. But alot of the effects don't allow a save, or can't be used on unwilling creatures. Evard's Black Tentacles, which is one you listed, is one of them. SF and GSF would do nothing for it. And you can't use Teleport on an unwilling creature. Gate also doesn't allow a save. Of course, some of the ones that can be used offensively and require a save are great spells, but I'm not sure I wouldn't rather take SF and GSF in some other schools like Enchantment, Transmutation, or Necromancy. But I guess it's a personal preference. Reconsidering, after what you two have posted, it might be a great school to focus on in a campaign full of dragons and undead.
Penguin Master 02-22-04, 02:34 AM	If you're in need of some metamagic feat suggestions as well, Snow said extend and quicken. Those are both excellent choices, I also like having silent spell (for those d***ed silence spells) Chain spell is awesome, one extra target per caster level even though they have a +4 bonus on their saves to resist just use it on a spell that has no save. A targetted chained dispel hits at least 11 magical effects target 11 magic items on a single person and you'll wreck a great deal of tactics especially when combined with other spells like starmantle.
horndgod 02-22-04, 03:31 AM	If you want Eldritch Knight, Dragonslayer is a better PrC than taking a level of Fighter. It costs you Iron Will, but 1st level gives you Martial Weapon Proficiency and Heavy Armor Proficiency, +1 BAB and +1 caster level. And if your DM stays true to form Dragonslayer is probably RP appropriate.
JosephKell 02-22-04, 03:43 AM	Originally posted by horndgod If you want Eldritch Knight, Dragonslayer is a better PrC than taking a level of Fighter. It costs you Iron Will, but 1st level gives you Martial Weapon Proficiency and Heavy Armor Proficiency, +1 BAB and +1 caster level. And if your DM stays true to form Dragonslayer is probably RP appropriate. If you want to wait until level 10 maybe. Actually, if you go Wizard 5/Prestige 5, you have to wait longer because that only has a BAB of +4.
horndgod 02-22-04, 03:56 AM	Originally posted by JosephKell If you want to wait until level 10 maybe. Actually, if you go Wizard 5/Prestige 5, you have to wait longer because that only has a BAB of +4. It depends on how you want to balance your martial prowess with your spellcasting. If you're not in a rush to get into Eldritch Knight, Dragonslayer is better than taking a level of Fighter which will ultimately leave you with one less caster level and possibly an xp penalty. The downside of Dragonslayer compared to Fighter is the loss of one fighter bonus feat, while you pick up increased caster level, aura of courage, and some other benefit I can't remember. Also, if you pick up a PrC with 3/4 BAB at 6th level you can qualify for Dragonslayer by 9th, allowing you to get +16 BAB and 19th level casting by 20th level if you go straight through Eldritch Knight. Iron Will also helps qualify for Holy Liberator and some other PrCs.
helicopter 02-22-04, 10:43 AM	Undead are not immune to illusions. you apparently have never used figments before. go look at the difference between the mind-affecting illusion spells and figments. you can even use figments against constructs and oozes
Penguin Master 02-22-04, 12:58 PM	As a rule of thumb generally you can use a figment against anything with a wis score since that is the ability which denotes the ability to interact with the world. i.e. spot checks, listen checks...
JosephKell 02-22-04, 02:13 PM	Originally posted by horndgod It depends on how you want to balance your martial prowess with your spellcasting. If you're not in a rush to get into Eldritch Knight, Dragonslayer is better than taking a level of Fighter which will ultimately leave you with one less caster level and possibly an xp penalty. The downside of Dragonslayer compared to Fighter is the loss of one fighter bonus feat, while you pick up increased caster level, aura of courage, and some other benefit I can't remember. Also, if you pick up a PrC with 3/4 BAB at 6th level you can qualify for Dragonslayer by 9th, allowing you to get +16 BAB and 19th level casting by 20th level if you go straight through Eldritch Knight. Iron Will also helps qualify for Holy Liberator and some other PrCs. However, the only reason to go Eldritch Knight is if you are in a rush to superpower your BAB. So really Dragonslayer is useless to the typical Mage.
Sudo_Nym 02-22-04, 03:01 PM	So many posts since I last logged on... I just wish I got responses like this on other message boards... Anyway, I do admit now that Undead are immune to some, but not all, illusions- they have immunity only the mind-affecting ones. But considering my, shall we say, lack of subtlety, illusion is probably not a good choice for me anyway. Considering, I might be better off as a sorcerer, but I prefer the Wizard, as he has no limits to number of spells known. That, and I spent enough time working on this guy that I don't want to abandon it. As for Dragonslayer/Eldritch Knight, its going to be a while down the road before I have to make a desicion, so I'll have plenty of time to figure out which one. The DM likes dragons, but that's no guarantee that they are going to be everywhere throughout the campaign. So I have time. Also, I discovered that I do indeed have a copy of Tome and Blood, and I like the Elemental Savant, though that would require me to have Energy Substitution (quick question: If I have Mastery of Elements from Archmage, will that count for the Energy Substitution requirement? I mean, they do the same thing, except Mastery of Elements is better at it). Also, I'll have Energy Resistance against the opposed element thanks to the Sentinal of Bharrai levels. I could choose Fire as my element, which would cut down the effectiveness of my DM's favorite Red Dragon. Any thoughts?
horndgod 02-22-04, 04:08 PM	Originally posted by JosephKell However, the only reason to go Eldritch Knight is if you are in a rush to superpower your BAB. So really Dragonslayer is useless to the typical Mage. What's the typical mage? Eldritch Knight is what you make of it; you can use it to quickly boost your BAB, but that isn't the only thing it's good for. If a spellcaster is interested primarily in boosting his spellcasting ability then boosting his BAB is a secondary concern, and therefore, can be delayed until later in the build. As far as Dragonslayer, this PrC is absolutely worthwhile to a typical mage, as long as there isn't a better feat to be taken instead of Iron Will. It increases caster level, gives +1BAB, martial and heavy armor profiencies, and gives an aura of courage. Even if you don't go into EK, a one level dip qualifies you for Spellsword. This all with no loss to spellcasting ability and no possibility for multiclassing xp penalty.