Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thebigh 02-20-04, 02:32 AM	I am in need of one. I am playing in a campaign soon. I am in the military so I assume that it will be a one game deal, so I want to cause as much havoc as possible to the DM, not neccessarily the countryfolk. A 32 point build for stats and only official books, ie not d20 splat stuff, is available. Help from the great minds on this board would be greatly appreciated!! Many thanks. I am sort of better at playing a more martial type, less 'wizardly' due to my limited knowlege of things arcane. Though I learn quickly if said knowlege were suggested for me.
adiaven 02-20-04, 02:34 AM	are you sure your DM said level 35? Thats pretty high. Adventures at that level are pretty broken and munchkin at that level. Even the fighters are casting 9th level spells at that level...
thebigh 02-20-04, 02:44 AM	I played in the campaign for 2 1/2 years, though had to end it due to work. We were up to around 30th level, though with many house rules. I wanted to join in for a session, and the house rules have been taken away for the newbies who have taken some of the more seniors' places. This is why it is so high.
Funny Slaughter 02-20-04, 06:20 AM	thats really a no-brainer, play a druid. you are able to wildshape into collossal dragons with all abilities by this time, there wont be much to stop you, maybe beside of the fact that you have only 5% the hitpoints of a real one :) in my opinion there is not much that stops a collossal dragon with epic spellcasting, you need some time to read into spells etc though, but without casting you will just suck, be prepared. gs Funny
Sisyfos 02-20-04, 07:45 AM	Yes... that druid would probably be a good idea. Some epic feats which you'd like to have are definitely: Automatic quicken spell x2 or x3 You can take those wildshape feats or you can just save your feats and use shapechange instead. It will last 350 minutes at your level and can even be extended if needed. Being able to wildshape into colossal dragons takes (not referring to books now, so there might be mistakes): - Magical beast wild shape - Dragon wild shape - Gargantuan wild shape - Colossal wild shape At least 4 feats. I am not saying that it is bad. Just that it is feat intensive and shapechange can accomplish most of it's good effects while using one 9th level spell. Which you could cast autoquickened with the right feat distribution. This might be good: Druid16/contemplative2/divine_disciple2/Epic_druid or an epic PrC rest. Domain: - War Prestige domain: - Mysticism You get access to divine favor and divine power. You sould cast these spell persistent... you should actually cast a lot of spell persistent with this build. Some nice feats: - Rashemi elemental summoning (UE) - Augment summoning (prereq: SF conjuration) - Quicken spell - extend spell - persistent spell - Improved spell capacity (epic) - Autoquicken (epic) - natural spell - blindsight (or get true vision from an item at that level) - Improved init You could also go for the uber charger build or the uber summoner builds described in Yekoj's druid's handbook. Remember to use those epic spells. There is nothing like calling a swarm of dragons (epic spell) and shapechanging into a colossal dragon/earth elemental (autoquicken) and use your move equivalent to go underground (if elemental). Then keep on either blasting spells or charging into combat while casting those autoquickened nasty spells all the time. If you have time to prepare an elemental swarm with each elemental able to cast cone of cold 3xday (rashemi elemental summoning) is pretty potent way to prepare for combat. ... oh... lower spell resistance is a nice spell to have if you summon spellcasting help regularly.
LordArkan 02-20-04, 08:17 AM	How about Druid 10/Shifter 20/ Warshaper 5? Those epic greater wild shapes sure are sweet.... :D
Eagle Prince 02-20-04, 08:44 AM	If you want simple, go for a half-dragon troll barbarian 11/fighter 10; 32-point buy Str 14, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 14 before adjustments. Spend some of your 7,900,000gp on +5 inherent bonus all attributes (825,000gp) and a ring of universal elemental immunity (2,160,000gp). Make sure your armor has heavy fortification (immune to crits), and try to find a magic item that protects you from death effects. Get the two ioun stones that make you not need food, water, or air. Max out Use Magic Device and get any wand you think you might need (greater invisibility, cure critical wounds). Spend your one epic feat on Damage Reduction. There you go, a nigh-unstoppable fighter with massive strength. Oh yeah, probably want to also spend 290,000gp on a mantle of epic spell resistance (SR 40).
Stirgar 02-20-04, 10:56 AM	Druids and wizards are obvious choices. Because either have access to epic spellcasting. Plus the druid might also have a few wildshaping options as noted by others here. Improved Elemental is very nice and won't chew up many epic feats if you want to go toward epic spellcasting. As a side note, I *think* that the last 'Does it stack?' column on the website explained that you can't stack inhenerent bonuses (thus the ones from tomes) even if they affect different stats. Only the highest one prevails. That is why the author (Skip?) stated to be careful with tomes and manuals. So you can't have +5 to every stats via tomes and manuals, unless I'm mistaken.
Eagle Prince 02-20-04, 11:05 AM	You can have +5 inherent to all six attributes. How it doesn't stack is if you read a +2 manual and a +3 manual, you don't end up with a +5 bonus, just the higher +3 bonus.
Stirgar 02-20-04, 11:18 AM	Reread the article and I'm afraid you're wrong! Bah, just kidding! You're absolutely right. It says '+5 inherent bonus to any single ability score'. Cheers.
Penguin Master 02-20-04, 11:24 AM	Epic Manual of (insert really cool name): Grants +5 inherent bonus to all stats. Market Price: 1,512,500 gp How about this? if you were to grant all ability scores the same bonus simultaneously the limitation shouldn't apply. If you're not into spellcasting, use a rogue and crank your sneak attack. then take Lingering damage, sneak attack of oppurtunity, and a few improved sneak attacks don't hurt, also epic dodge is an excellent feat. Furthermore, you'll need at least minimal spellcasting knowledge or you'll be severely lacking in combat at that level.
thebigh 02-20-04, 01:44 PM	Thanks alot you guys for all the suggestions. I really appreciate the effort. I am humbled by your mastery in the art of minmaxxing. I see the positives in your builds, the fighter one is appealing, due to my lack of spell knowlege, though it seems to play epic, spells are nasty! I will have to learn them. Any more suggestions are welcomed!
Funny Slaughter 02-20-04, 01:53 PM	without spells you wont come even close to the powerlevel of a caster. if you want to play a fighter-type choosing some creature with regeneration is a good suggestion, if something beats you badly you wont die. in a planar campaign i played a cornugon once, my record was around -350 hitpoints because some dumb monster didnt left me after i got healed two times. as a wildshaped druid you have to write up some things and can leave most of the spellcasting out, just by being a big dragon you will be as powerful as any epic fighter could be. but i think by the time you dig into some of the spells a druid can cast you dont want to be without them. developing epic spells is something for people with a lot of creativity and time, i just took some buffings my DM developed when i played my epic cleric once. (+20 to all stats or something like this :) ) gs Funny
Penguin Master 02-20-04, 05:12 PM	Speaking of Epic Spells I created a spell that will dominate someone permanently, without the use of the permanent factor. Dominating blast DC 81 Evocation, Enchantment (compulsion, mind-affecting) range 75 ft duration instantaneous area: 20ft radius save: will partial You blast the area with a mental fire and they take 10d6 points of damage and become dominated (as dominate monster) A succesful will save negates the dominating and reduces damage by half. A creature immune to mind-affecting effects takes no damage. Since only the shortest duration of all epic seeds used on a single epic spell apply, the instantaneous duration of the energy seed is infinately shorter than the 20 hr duration of the compel seed the final duration is instantaneous. And with no duration specified, the compulsion is everlasting. And since spells with durations of instantaneous cannot be dispelled this one cannot either. Only a wish, miracle, or a mordenkainen's disjunction (i think will remove it).
Stirgar 02-20-04, 05:37 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter as a wildshaped druid you have to write up some things and can leave most of the spellcasting out, just by being a big dragon you will be as powerful as any epic fighter could be. but i think by the time you dig into some of the spells a druid can cast you dont want to be without them. I don't dully grasp your point here? Do you mean that as a wildshaped druid he won't be able to cast as well as if he wasn't wildshaped? I'm no EPIC expert by any means but I'm thinking natural spell still applies to epic wildshapes, this being in my mind a good advantage over shapechange. I'm thinking you can craft some nasty spell to cook along with your dragon wildshape breath weapons. Sorry if I'm completely out of bounds here :P
Cynosure 02-20-04, 06:05 PM	Since only the shortest duration of all epic seeds used on a single epic spell apply, the instantaneous duration of the energy seed is infinately shorter than the 20 hr duration of the compel seed the final duration is instantaneous. :OMG! Um, that's a... broken... munchkin... on a stick... I love it! Instead of multiplying the cost by 5, just add 29 for the destroy seed. As if Epic Spells needed any help being broken. It's very possible for a level 25 caster to literally blow the entire Oerth away.
DreamWeaver 02-20-04, 06:25 PM	Ok, hang on their Tex with that epic spell you created that is "instantaneous". That kind of "trick" to get the permenant effect without the x5 multiplier was discussed many, many, many, ..., many times when epic first came out. It was acknowledged as cheesy, and it was also pointed out that since DM's have to approve epic spells, they could simply say no. From my point of view, as a DM, I'd let it go, but for me, when my player tried to use it, I would let the target (or targets?) be dominated for, get this now, "an instant". It's instantaneous after all, isn't it? I mean, the damage is still there because it has a lasting noticable effect after the damage affects the creature(s). The dominate effect only last for the length of the spell or its duration, which happen to be instantaneous. Essentially, yes, very munchkin like, but already heavily discussed and you should double check all epic spells for approval by your DM before you assume they will work the way you think they will. An honest, OOC discussion with your DM will probably lead to less arguements and confusion in game over your character and their abilities. Just my 2 cents. :angel:
Cynosure 02-20-04, 06:35 PM	I agree, Dreamweaver, but honestly I could see some seeds working with an instantaneous duration to make it permanent. Not the Compel seed, mind you, but perhaps Afflict? It pretty much all goes into spell description when you ask your DM. There are a few blinding spells with an instantaneous duration, so in this respect, it seems feasible.
nihility 02-20-04, 06:37 PM	If you like martial types, consider playing an epic Iaijutsu Master. You can find the progression here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030902a) . As has been stated, you'll be significantly weaker than the casters, but that's a bit misleading. It's not that you're weak, it's that they're absurdly strong. Anyway, I love the feel of the Iaijutsu Master, and mechanically iaijustu is fairly strong. Check out OA for the writeup and rules on Iaijutsu. At this level, playing some sort of level-adjusted race seems obvious, though not manditory. For the Iaijustu Master, look for races that get large bonuses to CHA. Most Fey, for example. Maybe a Pixie Iaijutsu Master? You've got to admit it would be interesting. Edit: If I did the Iaijutsu thing, here's one build off the top of my head that I might try. Human Swashbuckler 1/ Fighter 2/ OA Samurai 2/ Iaijutsu Master 10/ Singh Rager 4/ Holy Liberator 3/ Epic Iaijutsu Master 13 You've got CHA to saves (Holy Liberator), damage (Iaijutsu Master and Divine Might via HL), you can scare people with your CHA (Ki Shout into Singh Rager), you've got Diplomacy as a class almost the whole way (you can do some awesome things with epic Diplomacy), and lots of other goodies. Oh, and you can cut someone down without anyone seeing your blade move. This currently lacks Evasion, which is bothersome given the availability of Dextrous Fortitude and Dextrous Will. You could toss the Singh Rager for some Rogue levels to fix this, or possibly Shadowdancer. The latter would bag you Hide in Plain Sight, Uncanny Dodge, and darkvision as well, though entrance is costly. Rogue is probably easier.
PhaedrusXY 02-20-04, 06:37 PM	Play a monk with one level of Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight, which is much more useful than Invisibility at Epic levels. Get the Vorpal Strike ability. Kill stuff. I'd take at least 4 levels of a full BAB class to get 4 iterative attacks.
Hanniball 02-20-04, 07:02 PM	it may be difficult, but if you really want any chance of survival in a game that epic, you'll need to be some kind of caster. the others have suggested druid a lot, and it's an excellent choice. however, cleric has the buffs to keep you going after your wild shape has failed you AND it can out-fight the fighters. a clerics only adversary in epic levels is the wizard. not that the other classes are completely insane, but wizards blow the boots off of anything they come across with any amount of preparation. cleric 29/contemplative 6 is very simple and very effective. just sit down and think of what kind of insanely powerful epic spells your DM will allow. all that really matters in epic: the epic spells. either way...just my 0.02 cp
nihility 02-20-04, 07:06 PM	Don't forget epic skills, Hanniball, particularly bluff and diplomacy. Neither cares about SR or allows a saving throw. I'm not saying that they're better than epic spells, but epic skills are probably next in line in terms of power.
Eagle Prince 02-20-04, 07:15 PM	Alright, I got a good build if you just want to annoy DM. Play a bard with lasting inspiration, inspire excellence, music of the gods, reactive countersong, probably some others I'm forgetting. Also if possible, Words of Creation from book of exalted deeds. I'd need a bit of time to really make this build sick, but basically you could buff the entire party with massive bonuses, especially with words of creation.
Penguin Master 02-20-04, 08:12 PM	From my point of view, as a DM, I'd let it go, but for me, when my player tried to use it, I would let the target (or targets?) be dominated for, get this now, "an instant". It's instantaneous after all, isn't it? I mean, the damage is still there because it has a lasting noticable effect after the damage affects the creature(s). The dominate effect only last for the length of the spell or its duration, which happen to be instantaneous. How about the wall of stone spell, it doesn't last for an instant it's effectively permanent.
Pocket Ace Pretender 02-20-04, 08:13 PM	Personally, as everyone else has sort of implied, I would take a 35th level Wizard. Get the most insane epic spells you can think of, dominate entire towns, raze mountains, raise islands, summon dragons, then blast them into oblivion just for the joy of it... Buy a lot of Int enhancing stuff, get slaves to build you an Iron Fortress of Doom, and wreak havoc on the world, in addition to your DM. Wizards are cool.
Sisyfos 02-21-04, 05:52 AM	Originally posted by Penguin Master How about the wall of stone spell, it doesn't last for an instant it's effectively permanent. Common sense rules the day.
nihility 02-21-04, 02:07 PM	thebigh: Just out of curiosity, do you have a particular image or style in mind for a character that you'd like to play? That would help us focus our efforts. For example, if you played a martial type, would you lean more towards a berserker of destruction, or a focused and precise fighter? Any input would be helpful.
Hubbs 02-21-04, 03:14 PM	I have to agree with Nihility. From the sound of it so far, the replies are based solely on what class would destroy the world first. While I'm certain all of these fine folk can help you build any sort of character, you should first establish the type you'd feel most comfortable with. Don't get into a wizard if you can't handle all the prep time for spells. And while Druids are fun, how much can you rely on turning into a dragon if you're underground, or in confined places? Also, decide if spellcasting even fits the character you choose in the end. Don't just throw it in because 'you'll not last without epic spells of Doom and Destruction.' In a month or so, a message board game I'm a part of will be re-starting in 3.5 at 30th level. Right now, we're around 23rd-24th. I run a Monk, and even I realize that the spellcaster in the group is way, way, way more powerful. Doesn't change a thing. I don't see the Monk slinging spells, and I doubt that'll be different at 30th level.