4 full attack actions in a single round?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

4 full attack actions in a single round?? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tal'eth
11-07-03, 01:51 PM Bladesinger + Teflammar Shadowlord + Thrall of "something or other" from book of vile darkness

The "Thrall" class has a class feature called "Dual Action" which allows the character to perform 2 full round actions in the same round twice per day. With BS, you can cast a dimension door spell while performing a full round action as a free action. With TS, you can perform a full round attack action anytime you use an ability/spell with the dimension door effect (Shadow Pounce is the ability name).

The character performs a full attack attack action and casts dimension door as a free action, teleporting him, let's say, to the other side of his opponent. Upon arriving at new location, performs a full attack action per the Shadow Pounce ability. Repeat per Dual Action ability.

Is this legal/right, or am I reading it wrong?
Lago AM3P
11-07-03, 02:05 PM Well, first of all, since you can only cast one quickened spell per round pre-epic, you can't repeat the teleport+full attack action that the Shadowlord gives you.

Secondly, dimension door got changed in this edition so that it no longer allows you to take actions after you use it; the Shadowlord was written before the revision, so if its ability got nerfed by the revision, oh well.

So it's really just two full-round actions, exclusively from the Thrall class.

How would one be able to qualify for this silliness is another thing entirely...
Zrave
11-07-03, 02:18 PM You could only full attack 3 times, because the Bladesinger's Song of Celerity ability is only usable once per round.

You could full-attack 4 times if you had a quickened dimension door.
Tal'eth
11-07-03, 02:20 PM Thanks for your response Lago!

I was unaware that the BS ability to cast a spell as a free action while performing a full attack action would be considered as quickened spelling and, therefore, count towards the 1 quickened spell per round limit (pre-epic). As far as qualifying for these classes, it can be done pre-epic, unless I calculated wrong.

Thanks again!
Tal'eth
11-07-03, 02:21 PM Ahhh....Thanks Zrave!

That was an important detail about Song of Celerity that I was forgetting, heh
Balthanon
11-07-03, 02:22 PM Originally posted by Lago AM3P
Secondly, dimension door got changed in this edition so that it no longer allows you to take actions after you use it; the Shadowlord was written before the revision, so if its ability got nerfed by the revision, oh well.

You've never been able to take actions after using dimension door. The Shadowlord's ability supercedes that and allows you to take a full attack action after using it.
Zrave
11-07-03, 02:26 PM As for the previous poster stating that dimension door got changed. I checked my 3.0 PHB and it also says that you can take no actions after the spell, so I assume that this would work.

Oh, I looked it up its Thrall of the Demogorgon :P
Lago AM3P
11-07-03, 02:28 PM Son of a...!

He's right, folks.
Lago AM3P
11-07-03, 02:47 PM Good Job, Taleth. I think that you've discovered a potential infinite loophole right in its tracks.

I've been trying to find one of my own for months, now, but I was beaten to the punch.

Though, couldn't you throw a ring of wizardry on that with shapechange stored into that, and alternate between, say, a blink dog and a choker and squeeze two extra rounds worth of full-round actions out of that?
Tal'eth
11-07-03, 02:57 PM Lol, Lago!

I really wasn't trying to be uber-munchkin or anything. I have just been working on my next character who happens to be a Ninja headed for TSL. When I saw the Thrall class, it just got me thinkin. Besides, when there's a barbarian in your group that might want to take you out at some point, I want all the aces up my sleeves that I can get :)
RabidWeasel
11-07-03, 04:01 PM Lago, what infinite loophole is this?

You can't take any actions after casting a dimension door spell, with the exception of a single additional full attack action for free due to shadow strike.

Therefore, no matter how many times you could DD per round, you can't use more than 1 dimension door because you can't take an action after casting it (unless you class a free action as 'not an action'.

Therefore, the most full attacks you can get is 3; one for each full round action, and 1 for the shadow pounce celerity'd/quickened DD.
PhaedrusXY
11-07-03, 05:33 PM Originally posted by RabidWeasel
Lago, what infinite loophole is this?

You can't take any actions after casting a dimension door spell, with the exception of a single additional full attack action for free due to shadow strike.

Therefore, no matter how many times you could DD per round, you can't use more than 1 dimension door because you can't take an action after casting it (unless you class a free action as 'not an action'.

Therefore, the most full attacks you can get is 3; one for each full round action, and 1 for the shadow pounce celerity'd/quickened DD. The Teflemmar Shadowlord's Shadow Pounce says you can make a full attack after anything with the teleportation descriptor. I don't remember it saying you can only do this once per round. You can't make an infinite amount of full attacks with this, but you can make several... assuming your DM lets you pull off this cheese at all. I haven't even tried with my Shadowlord, because I think it is too cheesy. Getting a full attack during the suprise round is enough for me :) But theoretically you could:

1) Use your Shadow Step (or whatever the Dimension Door through shadows ability of the Shadowlord is) to jump next to your opponent. Shadow Pounce lets you make a full attack.
2) Use the Bladesinger ability to cast another Dimension Door while making your first full attack. Jump to the other side of your opponent. Make another full attack because of Shadow Pounce.
3) Use Quicken Spell-like Ability to use Dimension Door again. Make another full attack.
4) Get another full attack because of the Thrall of Demogorgon levels. (I'm not sure how this works, I'm assuming you can only get one more full attack per round with it).

So yes, it looks like it is technically legal to get 4 full attacks in a round. The only thing I see that might keep this from working is if the Bladesinger ability counts as a quickened spell for the round. I don't have the book with the Bladesinger in it, so I am unsure of this.
mean_liar
11-07-03, 07:52 PM :king:

Totally ubertastically cheezy. I love it.
Hanniball
11-07-03, 07:57 PM 4 full attacks is correct AFAIK. Nice find Tal'eth.
catharz
11-10-03, 12:31 AM I don't think that Song of celerity is considered 'Casting a quickened spell.' I can't see anything in the description of the ability that says it is. Anyone got some kind of errata on this I don't know about?

I was operating under the impression that Song of Celerity only required a Full attack action, and that therefore a Bladesinger/Shadowlord (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111662&perpage=30&pagenumber=1) would have no trouble at all getting more full attack action in one round then they have Dimension door spells prepared. *grumbes*

Anyway, Thrall of demogorgon seems like a better bet for a character who gains Dimension Door as a spell-like ability, as they could then do a full attack/quicken spell-like/pounce full attack/double action full attack/double action quicken spell-like/pounce full attack just as well as a bladesinger who can only Celerity once per round, and requre much less of a level investment (and no elvishness).
Sisyfos
11-10-03, 01:52 AM And of course if one reads TS as I read it, his ability just gives him chance to react while casting those teleports. Thus he is actually able to cast "teleport" while attacking. -> No extra full attacks at all no matter how many bloody times you jump around in a round.

How to tell this more clearly: casting a dimension door does not take TS's full concentration for the round in my campaigns. Its the DD which is quickened in a limited sense that it allows TS to still do his normal attack after casting it. Casting two DDs a round would not help his situation in any way as he would not have a second full attack action to use at the end of the second DD. This is probably the right interpretation of the intentions of the writers of TS.

Sisyfos
PhaedrusXY
11-10-03, 03:10 AM Originally posted by Sisyfos
And of course if one reads TS as I read it, his ability just gives him chance to react while casting those teleports. Thus he is actually able to cast "teleport" while attacking. -> No extra full attacks at all no matter how many bloody times you jump around in a round.

How to tell this more clearly: casting a dimension door does not take TS's full concentration for the round in my campaigns. Its the DD which is quickened in a limited sense that it allows TS to still do his normal attack after casting it. Casting two DDs a round would not help his situation in any way as he would not have a second full attack action to use at the end of the second DD. This is probably the right interpretation of the intentions of the writers of TS.

Sisyfos Of course, you are probably right, and I don't think most DMs would allow multiple full attacks in a round at all. But when it comes to crazy builds on here, people basically just use the exact wording of the rules as written, until an errata or FAQ or Sage Advice or something changes or clarifies the rule. I play a Teflemmar Shadowlord, and I haven't even bothered to try doing this, because even if my DM didn't just smack me in the head, I'd be embarassed to do it. It's too cheesy.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tal'eth 11-07-03, 01:51 PM	Bladesinger + Teflammar Shadowlord + Thrall of "something or other" from book of vile darkness The "Thrall" class has a class feature called "Dual Action" which allows the character to perform 2 full round actions in the same round twice per day. With BS, you can cast a dimension door spell while performing a full round action as a free action. With TS, you can perform a full round attack action anytime you use an ability/spell with the dimension door effect (Shadow Pounce is the ability name). The character performs a full attack attack action and casts dimension door as a free action, teleporting him, let's say, to the other side of his opponent. Upon arriving at new location, performs a full attack action per the Shadow Pounce ability. Repeat per Dual Action ability. Is this legal/right, or am I reading it wrong?
Lago AM3P 11-07-03, 02:05 PM	Well, first of all, since you can only cast one quickened spell per round pre-epic, you can't repeat the teleport+full attack action that the Shadowlord gives you. Secondly, dimension door got changed in this edition so that it no longer allows you to take actions after you use it; the Shadowlord was written before the revision, so if its ability got nerfed by the revision, oh well. So it's really just two full-round actions, exclusively from the Thrall class. How would one be able to qualify for this silliness is another thing entirely...
Zrave 11-07-03, 02:18 PM	You could only full attack 3 times, because the Bladesinger's Song of Celerity ability is only usable once per round. You could full-attack 4 times if you had a quickened dimension door.
Tal'eth 11-07-03, 02:20 PM	Thanks for your response Lago! I was unaware that the BS ability to cast a spell as a free action while performing a full attack action would be considered as quickened spelling and, therefore, count towards the 1 quickened spell per round limit (pre-epic). As far as qualifying for these classes, it can be done pre-epic, unless I calculated wrong. Thanks again!
Tal'eth 11-07-03, 02:21 PM	Ahhh....Thanks Zrave! That was an important detail about Song of Celerity that I was forgetting, heh
Balthanon 11-07-03, 02:22 PM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P Secondly, dimension door got changed in this edition so that it no longer allows you to take actions after you use it; the Shadowlord was written before the revision, so if its ability got nerfed by the revision, oh well. You've never been able to take actions after using dimension door. The Shadowlord's ability supercedes that and allows you to take a full attack action after using it.
Zrave 11-07-03, 02:26 PM	As for the previous poster stating that dimension door got changed. I checked my 3.0 PHB and it also says that you can take no actions after the spell, so I assume that this would work. Oh, I looked it up its Thrall of the Demogorgon :P
Lago AM3P 11-07-03, 02:28 PM	Son of a...! He's right, folks.
Lago AM3P 11-07-03, 02:47 PM	Good Job, Taleth. I think that you've discovered a potential infinite loophole right in its tracks. I've been trying to find one of my own for months, now, but I was beaten to the punch. Though, couldn't you throw a ring of wizardry on that with shapechange stored into that, and alternate between, say, a blink dog and a choker and squeeze two extra rounds worth of full-round actions out of that?
Tal'eth 11-07-03, 02:57 PM	Lol, Lago! I really wasn't trying to be uber-munchkin or anything. I have just been working on my next character who happens to be a Ninja headed for TSL. When I saw the Thrall class, it just got me thinkin. Besides, when there's a barbarian in your group that might want to take you out at some point, I want all the aces up my sleeves that I can get :)
RabidWeasel 11-07-03, 04:01 PM	Lago, what infinite loophole is this? You can't take any actions after casting a dimension door spell, with the exception of a single additional full attack action for free due to shadow strike. Therefore, no matter how many times you could DD per round, you can't use more than 1 dimension door because you can't take an action after casting it (unless you class a free action as 'not an action'. Therefore, the most full attacks you can get is 3; one for each full round action, and 1 for the shadow pounce celerity'd/quickened DD.
PhaedrusXY 11-07-03, 05:33 PM	Originally posted by RabidWeasel Lago, what infinite loophole is this? You can't take any actions after casting a dimension door spell, with the exception of a single additional full attack action for free due to shadow strike. Therefore, no matter how many times you could DD per round, you can't use more than 1 dimension door because you can't take an action after casting it (unless you class a free action as 'not an action'. Therefore, the most full attacks you can get is 3; one for each full round action, and 1 for the shadow pounce celerity'd/quickened DD. The Teflemmar Shadowlord's Shadow Pounce says you can make a full attack after anything with the teleportation descriptor. I don't remember it saying you can only do this once per round. You can't make an infinite amount of full attacks with this, but you can make several... assuming your DM lets you pull off this cheese at all. I haven't even tried with my Shadowlord, because I think it is too cheesy. Getting a full attack during the suprise round is enough for me :) But theoretically you could: 1) Use your Shadow Step (or whatever the Dimension Door through shadows ability of the Shadowlord is) to jump next to your opponent. Shadow Pounce lets you make a full attack. 2) Use the Bladesinger ability to cast another Dimension Door while making your first full attack. Jump to the other side of your opponent. Make another full attack because of Shadow Pounce. 3) Use Quicken Spell-like Ability to use Dimension Door again. Make another full attack. 4) Get another full attack because of the Thrall of Demogorgon levels. (I'm not sure how this works, I'm assuming you can only get one more full attack per round with it). So yes, it looks like it is technically legal to get 4 full attacks in a round. The only thing I see that might keep this from working is if the Bladesinger ability counts as a quickened spell for the round. I don't have the book with the Bladesinger in it, so I am unsure of this.
mean_liar 11-07-03, 07:52 PM	:king: Totally ubertastically cheezy. I love it.
Hanniball 11-07-03, 07:57 PM	4 full attacks is correct AFAIK. Nice find Tal'eth.
catharz 11-10-03, 12:31 AM	I don't think that Song of celerity is considered 'Casting a quickened spell.' I can't see anything in the description of the ability that says it is. Anyone got some kind of errata on this I don't know about? I was operating under the impression that Song of Celerity only required a Full attack action, and that therefore a Bladesinger/Shadowlord (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=111662&perpage=30&pagenumber=1) would have no trouble at all getting more full attack action in one round then they have Dimension door spells prepared. grumbes Anyway, Thrall of demogorgon seems like a better bet for a character who gains Dimension Door as a spell-like ability, as they could then do a full attack/quicken spell-like/pounce full attack/double action full attack/double action quicken spell-like/pounce full attack just as well as a bladesinger who can only Celerity once per round, and requre much less of a level investment (and no elvishness).
Sisyfos 11-10-03, 01:52 AM	And of course if one reads TS as I read it, his ability just gives him chance to react while casting those teleports. Thus he is actually able to cast "teleport" while attacking. -> No extra full attacks at all no matter how many bloody times you jump around in a round. How to tell this more clearly: casting a dimension door does not take TS's full concentration for the round in my campaigns. Its the DD which is quickened in a limited sense that it allows TS to still do his normal attack after casting it. Casting two DDs a round would not help his situation in any way as he would not have a second full attack action to use at the end of the second DD. This is probably the right interpretation of the intentions of the writers of TS. Sisyfos
PhaedrusXY 11-10-03, 03:10 AM	Originally posted by Sisyfos And of course if one reads TS as I read it, his ability just gives him chance to react while casting those teleports. Thus he is actually able to cast "teleport" while attacking. -> No extra full attacks at all no matter how many bloody times you jump around in a round. How to tell this more clearly: casting a dimension door does not take TS's full concentration for the round in my campaigns. Its the DD which is quickened in a limited sense that it allows TS to still do his normal attack after casting it. Casting two DDs a round would not help his situation in any way as he would not have a second full attack action to use at the end of the second DD. This is probably the right interpretation of the intentions of the writers of TS. Sisyfos Of course, you are probably right, and I don't think most DMs would allow multiple full attacks in a round at all. But when it comes to crazy builds on here, people basically just use the exact wording of the rules as written, until an errata or FAQ or Sage Advice or something changes or clarifies the rule. I play a Teflemmar Shadowlord, and I haven't even bothered to try doing this, because even if my DM didn't just smack me in the head, I'd be embarassed to do it. It's too cheesy.