Post/Author/DateTime	Post
King Uther 04-23-05, 07:15 PM	Thri-Keen Fighter Assumes psionics are considered as spells Thri-Keen LA+2 Thri-Keen 2 Racial Hit Dice Willing Deformity Fighter 1 Thrall to Demon, Combat Expertise Fighter 2 Dodge Thrall of Demagorgon 1 ToD 2 Weapon Focus: slashing ToD 3 ToD 4 Any Class Mobility Dervish 1 Derv 2 Derv 3 Multi-Weapon Fighting Derv 4 Derv 5 Derv 6 Improved Multi-Weapon Derv 7 Derv 8 Derv 9 Greater Multi-weapon Derv 10 Can only be done by lvl 21. Thrall of Demagorgon at level 4 allows you to make 2 full-round actions twice per day. Dervish allows you to double one full round actions worth of attacks Assuming: 1 weapon of speed, all multi weapon feats Bases attacks: 14(4 main, 9 off-hand, 1 speed) With both classes abilities: 42 (14regular, 14more for dervish, 14 more for another full round action)
Welcome 04-23-05, 07:26 PM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the two 'speed' attacks are doubled by the dervish's thousand cuts ability. In fact, I was never quite sure having two weapons of speed actually gave you two extra attacks and not just one. Makes sense both ways, I guess.
Moon-Lancer 04-23-05, 07:28 PM	could you explain what Demagorgon does at fourth level in more detail?
lokkesmadr 04-23-05, 08:16 PM	It's the same sort of ability as the Aspect of Demogorgon and the Chronotyryn, except limited to twice per day. You get to make two full rounds worth of actions in one round (sort of, the details differ from case to case but the general result is much the same). Hence, you can spend a round using thousand cuts and make two full attacks during it. If thousand cuts refers to a 'round' rather than a 'full attack' then the concept works. However, multiple weapons of Speed, by the RAE (rules as explained), don't stack so the attacks are already reduced. Effectively, any magic item ability that uses a named spell doesn't stack with that spell or with any other effects which rely on that spell. Thus, even though the description of the Speed quality doesn't preclude two weapons both adding an attack the rules as explained in either the FAQ or the Sage articles (can't recall which, probably Sage) do preculde it. Still you can add a psychotic number of attacks by sticking natural attacks onto the scheme. A quick application of polymorph can add 12 or more attacks to your full attack, doubled to 24. That's 40 total without really trying
Xaktsaroth 04-23-05, 08:19 PM	could you explain what Demagorgon does at fourth level in more detail? Right from the BoVD, pg. 68: "Dual Actions (Su): Twice per day, a 4th-level thrall of Demogorgon can take two full rounds' worth of actions in the same round." Not sure about the speed thingie, I'll have to double check, but at the very least, it's a good launching point. :P
King Uther 04-24-05, 08:45 PM	Assuming you can convince your DM that psionics are the same as spells, which in many cases they are: 1Thri-Keen LA+2 2 3 Thri-Keen Racial Hit Dice 4 Racial Hit dice 5 Fighter 1 6 Fighter 2 7 Thrall of Demogorgon 1 8 ToD 2 9 ToD 3 10 ToD 4 11-20 Dervish With the Multi-Attack feats, You have a base of 14 attacks(4main, 9 off-hand, 1Speed) With Dual Actions and a Thousand Cuts in place, you can make 42 attacks in one round. Anyone got better?
Jeremymc 04-25-05, 11:51 AM	With the Multi-Attack feats, You have a base of 14 attacks(4main, 9 off-hand, 1Speed) With Dual Actions and a Thousand Cuts in place, you can make 42 attacks in one round. Anyone got better? Do you mean for a melee fighter build? This build? Or just in general? Because it's pretty easy to make a MasTran that beats this. So does anything that doubles or triples things act like critical rules, where instead of damage doubling as per the series x2, x4, x8, x16, it doubles as per the series (original) x2, (original) x3, (original) x4, etc? Is that the general rule for 3.5? And I'm almost positive that the 3.5 version of HASTE doesn't stack with any other doubling attributes (i.e. twf, etc..), but instead simply provides one EXTRA attack with a full attack. So that would mean: 39 +1 speed. 40 attacks.
gabrion 04-25-05, 02:41 PM	Two things. 1) If you are 21st level, 42 attacks is beatable. If you are an Epic Thri Keen, you should be using Perfect Multi-Weapong fighting, so you will get all of your attacks with each hand. That alone will give you 16 attacks to start with. Also, I think their has been controversy over whether or not TWF or MWF gives a monk extra attacks in their flurry, but I've always read that it does. If that is the case, you should take a level of monk and when you flurry you will have 20 attacks per round to start with. Then follow directions below. 2) I think Jeremeymc was the first person I saw with this idea, but since he didn't post it, I will! Let me start by saying get rid of the dervish levels. Replace them with 4 levels of Teflammar Shadowlord (UE), and some arcane spell casting class. To be totally effective here, you will need to summon a monster of any sort right beside your enemy. You should also have a rod or two of quicken spell. btw, I'm assuming you are a monk with MWF, IMWF, GMWF. Steps: a) Full round attack. Should be 14 (5 primary, 9 off hand). b) Quicken benign transposition. With the TeflS 4th level ability, this gives you another full round attack. Total now should be 28. c) Use the ToD ability to do all of this again for 56 attacks in one round. Another thing to keep in mind is that many builds can't take multiple attacks in a suprise round, but if you can attack first, use the shadow walk ability and do another 14 attacks. So if you suprise and win initiative, in the first round of combat you can do 70 attacks. My favorite thing to do here is get a necklace of natural attacks and give it the Wounding and Marrowcrushing abilities. Each one does a point of CON damage, so even if you miss with all of your low attacks, you will still do about 100 CON dmg (unless they are immune of course). Enjoy.
lostone 04-25-05, 02:56 PM	I think the highest number of attacks I've seen is 144. But that was an anthropomorphic squid build IIRC.
Verkon 04-25-05, 04:39 PM	hasted, rightious wrath of the faithful, cleric in Marilith form with perfect multiweapon fighting, with dervish lvl's and depending on your interpurtation of perfect multiweapon fighting that is 36 atk's per round 60 with dervish doubleing, 120 if you had duel actions. derish i am almost positive states that you don't double your atk's from hast. with dusk wood maces with spikes, divin might, and persentant spells= insanity.
Helmed Horror 04-25-05, 04:56 PM	interesting... BTW, for your any class level... you might want to have swashbuckler....d10 hit die, +1 BAB and free weapon finesse.
Jeremymc 04-25-05, 04:57 PM	Dude. That's totally not me. Not only do I hate the T.Shadowlord, I totally have no idea what a "benign transposition" is. I can only assume it's some insane Psionic power? I've never seen that squid build? How did the player get it up to 144? For a melee fighter, that seems relatively impossible. No one nerfed it? Or found a problem with 144 attacks per round? There has to be one. And can someone explain to me what "Dual Action" is, and why it seems to DOUBLE your attacks per round? Something seems fishy to me when a 4th level class ability is able to give you the same power as 10 class levels of Dervish. Are we ABSOLUTELY SURE that it acts in this way?? By RAW, I can technically build a MasTran that gets an unlimited number of attacks per round (well, a number limited only by the amount of creatures that are able to attack a single target every round). It's pretty easy. The same sort of build can also yield an unlimited number of really high HP spellcasting clones. Or firebreathing dragons. Just gotta vary your shape. BTW. That last build with the Multiweapon fighting Cleric is pretty much impossible. First off, a Cleric who could take Dervish levels and have perfect Multiweapon fighting would need an AWFUL LOT OF FEATS. I don't know how many, or even if he has enough slots, but I'd venture to say that every feat a cleric has would be pumped into silly combat feats. Secondly, I'm pretty sure a Dervish has to fight with slashing weapons. Thirdly, the word is "interpretation". Fourthly, 36 doubled is not 60. But is rather 72. Fifthly, doesn't the Marilith get primary attacks with her primary weapon hand, and then a SINGLE attack with each of her other hands at FULL BAB? The Marilith Monster entry already HAS perfect multiweapon fighting (I think), and that's how the monster is listed as attacking? Does perfect Multiweapon grant a second attack with each off-hand? If it does, that means 4 main hand attacks, and 10 off-hand attacks and a tail slap. Which is 15. Which doubles to 30. Which doubles again to 60 (if you're doubling it that way. If you're using the critical damage pattern, it "doubles" again to 45). Soo.... I kinda dunno how in the world we got up to 120? And Lastly, now that I think about it, does that FIRST build have enough feats to qualify for Dervish? It doesn't look that way.
LefferDP 04-26-05, 12:20 AM	Wouldn't skiprocks increase the number of attacks in a round dramatically? I can't remember how many times they skip each, but assuming you had two enemies, you could get quite a few by bouncing them off one another. Antropomorphic squip with Perfect MWF + Master Thrower and that's 8 x 4 x 2 = 64 without skipping or extra enhancements like haste.
Cynic_Devine 04-26-05, 04:54 AM	Lets see here- Thri-kreen with perfect multi-weapon fighting gives you 20 & BAB gives you 4 Fang of Lolth adds 2 more limbs putting you at 32. Tauric template adds 2 more putting you at 34. Monk adds 2 more attacks putting at 34. Lightning Fist puts at 36 Speed adds 9 attacks putting you at 45. Master thrower doubles that to 90. Thrall of Demigorgan doubles that to 180. So a Monk 11/Rogue 5/Fang of Lolth 9/Master Thrower 5/Thrall of Demigorgan 4 should do the job. Granted it is a 35th level character & nerfed by infinite deflection. You can do the same job with: Thri-kreen Monk 11/Rogue 5/ Fang of Lolth 9/ Dervish 10/ Thral of Demigorgan 4 ( which nets you 153 attacks per round).
LordKiwi 04-26-05, 05:15 AM	Can't remember the exact name of it, but in the Fiend Folio there is a fiendish graft that grants an extra attack a round and costs just 5,000 gp. You have 720k at level 20 so that's +144 attacks. Add that on whatever else you care to build. You may want to increase your size a bit, preferably by adding a large snake with the tauric template so you don't look quite so ridiculous (may end up looking like the 100 armed abomination from the ELH). Even if you don't take it to extremes it's still an easy way to get more attacks. Lord Kiwi,
lostone 04-26-05, 09:33 AM	I don't remember the 144 attack build and apparently did not subscribe to it. If search was working I'd search for it, pretty sure it had 144 in the title of the thread. It involved skiprocks (unenchanted I think, maybe using vow of poverty so they are all magical, etc) and palm throw from master thrower. Here's an alternate build off the top of my head: Anthropomorphic multiheaded squid. This gives 8 arms and 2 legs (squids have 10 tentacles but two are made into legs from anthropomorphic template). The Multi-headed template gives superior multi-weapon fighting, giving full iterative attacks with each arm. So assuming 4 attacks with each arm gives 32 attacks. Using all speed weapons gives total of 40 attacks. (If you read speed weapon in 3.5 it states the the wielder gets an additional attack with this weapon, so it reads like it should stack for each seperate weapon). Palm Throw allows throwing two weapons per attack effectively giving 80 attacks. Or use Dervish for 72 attacks.
Verkon 04-26-05, 10:02 AM	jeremymc 36 is with perfect multi weapon with the interpertation and that you get your hast atks with off hands, deverish specificly states that you do not get your hast atks in the doubling so like i said 36 goes to 60. you only need 6 feats for thrall of demigorgon and dervish combined, granted this build would take 32 lvl's. and further more cleric focusing on melee feats are some of the best melee charctors u can think up.
lostone 04-26-05, 10:28 AM	And can someone explain to me what "Dual Action" is, and why it seems to DOUBLE your attacks per round? Something seems fishy to me when a 4th level class ability is able to give you the same power as 10 class levels of Dervish. Are we ABSOLUTELY SURE that it acts in this way??Here:Dual Actions (Su): Twice per day, a 4th-level thrall of Demogorgon can take two full rounds' worth of actions in the same round.But this is in the BoVD and not intended for player use, intended for mature players, blah blah blah. The requirements are icky (chaotic evil, willing deformity feat, must participate in ritual sacrifice of an innocent...and more, but these are the ones that will eliminate 99.9% of characters).
Jeremymc 04-26-05, 11:25 AM	I'm almost positive that 3.5 Haste doesn't give you any extra attacks with other limbs, but only gives you one extra primary attack at your full BAB. Taking 2 rounds' worth of actions would double that to 2 bonus attacks. The only thing stopping me from saying that I AM positive is that I don't have the book in front of me. In a similar vein, I'm almost positive that the Mutiheaded template/perfect Multiweapon fighting does NOT give you 4 attacks with EACH arm. The Ettin has one attack with each arm, and it has only 2 arms. As far as I remember, each Ettin head controls one arm independently, which gives it 2 arms to attack with. You might be able to get 2 sets of iterative attacks out of that, but there's no way you can expand that into 8. Barring, of cours, having 8 heads. But that would be a HUGE +LA, and be extremely silly. Look at the Marilith monster entry in the MM III. It has superios (if not perfect) multiweapon fighting and six arms. All arms count as primary attacks, but it only gets one set of iterative attacks with one arm. If you made a 2-headed Marilith, I can see it getting 2 sets of iterative attacks and 4 additional attacks from the 4 remaining arms. But there's no way that would give it six sets of iterative attacks. And lastly, the benefit gained with a SPEED weapon is as per the Haste spell (see weapon creation requirements). Haste does NOT stack with haste, regardless of the source of each. Therefore the Speed ability does not stack with another weapon's speed ability.
lostone 04-26-05, 11:58 AM	In a similar vein, I'm almost positive that the Mutiheaded template/perfect Multiweapon fighting does NOT give you 4 attacks with EACH arm. The Ettin has one attack with each arm, and it has only 2 arms. As far as I remember, each Ettin head controls one arm independently, which gives it 2 arms to attack with. You might be able to get 2 sets of iterative attacks out of that, but there's no way you can expand that into 8. Barring, of cours, having 8 heads. But that would be a HUGE +LA, and be extremely silly.Ok, I apparently did not remember something quite right, but a lot of people were either missing this or flat out ignoring it because for a while I saw anthropmorphic squids all over using fully iterative attacks with two heads (it may have been back on the savage species board when that was around).Because each head controls one arm (or anaolous weapon-using limb), a multiheaded creature has no penalty on attack rolls for attacking with multiple weapons, and the number of attacks and the damage bonus for each weapon are calculated as though the weapon were held in the primary hand.I think people were missing the because each head controls one arm part and reading everything after the paranthesis (especially the number of attacks...for each weapon are calculated as though the weapon were held in the primary hand). So to get 7 additional heads it would have to be huge size, get 14 additional HD and +4 LA, making this epic.And lastly, the benefit gained with a SPEED weapon is as per the Haste spell (see weapon creation requirements). Haste does NOT stack with haste, regardless of the source of each. Therefore the Speed ability does not stack with another weapon's speed ability.The Speed wording is open to interpretation.Speed: When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder’s full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.) Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price +3 bonus.Since it's the weapon granting the extra attack, multiple weapons would each grant an extra attack for the hand that is wielding it. Yes I see the text in paranthesis, however the wording by RAW is open to interpretation. And the fact that Speed uses the haste spell during creation is irrelevant. The properties of magic items are often vary from the spell and often go against the wording of the spell, only having a vague relation to the disired property of the magic item. Disruption weapon property that outright destroys undead on a failed save uses Heal which would reduce an undead to 1d4 remaining hitpoints but not destroy it. Distance weapon doubles the range of the weapon, it uses clairaudience/clairvoyance, which grants no ability to move a weapon at an enemy. Merciful uses cure light wounds but adds nonlethal damage to the attack. Thundering uses deafness/blindness and adds damage.The spells seem to be more symbolic and reflect the magical energies used to create the item, but the item doesn't perfectly emulate the spell used.
Pinky's brain 04-26-05, 12:22 PM	Since it's the weapon granting the extra attack, multiple weapons would each grant an extra attack for the hand that is wielding it. Yes I see the text in paranthesis, however the wording by RAW is open to interpretation.Combine that with the way haste works and the fact that the 3.0 weapons of speed explicitly didnt work that way, it was in the FAQ, and you can see why this build for instance doesnt try to use speed weapons that way. The preponderance of evidence is against it.
Jeryg 04-26-05, 12:51 PM	how to get the most attacks while being a human (i've always been doubtfull about any sort of antropomorphic squid's or tri kreen's ability to walk into a tavern and simply ask for a drink if you want my opinion...) Fighter 2 / Swashbuclker 3 / Sorc 1 / Dervish 1 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Arcane Duelist 10 / whatever 2 the trick is to use a double slashing weapon (double scimitar is my choice here), so that you can elect it as your "chosen weapon" for the Arcane Duelist PrC. go for the TWF chain (Imp. TWG and GTWF) + flurry of strikes (exotic weapon master) + extra attack from flurry of swords (arcane duelist level 10). thats already 8 attacks. haste yourself or get a weapon of speed. +1 attack. flurry of swords creates 1d4 + 3 images of yourself (lets say 7 because we are min/maxers ;)), which all deal all the same attacks as yourself (subdual damage, yes, but still pretty nice). with you thats 8 times 9 attacks = 72 attacks. given, you don't have an impressive BAB at level 20 (+14), but you add your int bonus to damage, you have a +4 bonus to add to your weapon's own (can go over +5), you have another +1 to hit and to damages from dervish level 1, you have Karmic strike, and you have free weapon finesse from swashbuckler. add in a move action from your dervish dance and you've got a pretty good blade dance whirlwind frenzy of death. details : Fighter 1 EWP (double scimitar), Dodge, Combat Expertise Fighter 2 Weapon Focus (double scimitar) Swashb 1 mobility Swashb 2 Swashb 3 Sorc 1 TWF Dervish 1 Exotic Weapon Master 1 (flurry of strikes) Arcane Duelist 1 Karmic Strike Arcane Duelist 2 Arcane Duelist 3 Arcane Duelist 4 Improved TWF Arcane Duelist 5 Arcane Duelist 6 Arcane Duelist 7 Improved critical (double scimitar) Arcane Duelist 8 Arcane Duelist 9 Arcane Duelist 10 Greater TWF XXXXX 1 XXXXX 2 last 2 levels : up to you, but i suggest Knight of the Middle Circle 1 and something else 1 or you cant take a level of rogue and a level of Guild Thief to get 2D6 sneak... if you catch the opponent flat footed, you get potentially 128D6 sneak attack on him :D
gabrion 04-27-05, 02:34 AM	Dude. That's totally not me. Not only do I hate the T.Shadowlord, I totally have no idea what a "benign transposition" is. I can only assume it's some insane Psionic power? Ya, sorry, it was actually NateNate who used an idea similar to this. Also, benign transposition is a 1st level teleportation spell from the Miniatures Handbook.