Post/Author/DateTime	Post
acorania 10-21-05, 08:21 PM	I have a player joining my game who would like to have a cleric with the following crazy combo. I have only just started looking up all the rules related to this, but it seems legit so far and also strikes me as crazy powerful. I allow flaws in my game, so he has taken 2. Human Cha Mod: +3 Domains: Air and Fire Feats: Extra Turning Extra Turning Divine Metamagic (Quicken Feat) Divine Metamagic (Twin Spell) So unless I am reading things wrong he has the following for turn attempts: Turn/Rebuke Undead: 3 + 3 CHA + 4 Feat + 4 Feat = 14 Turn attemps Air Domain Special Ability: 3 + 3 CHA + 4 Feat + 4 Feat = 14 Turn attemps Fire Domain Special Ability: 3 + 3 CHA + 4 Feat + 4 Feat = 14 Turn attemps Total Turning attemps of various types: 14 reg + 14 air + 14 fire = 42 attempts And of course that many attempts make him go crazy with the quicken and twinning spell divine metamagic feats (5 turn attempts each use). Is this legal? Am I missing something? This seems crazy at first level!!! Sean Mahoney
Lilt 10-21-05, 08:27 PM	Divine metamagic can only be used with turn/rebuke undead attempts, not with the elemental turn/rebuke attempts. Divine metamagic has also been errated so that you need the relevant metamagic feat to take the divine metamagic equivalent. IE: You need Quicken Spell to take Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell). Check the Complete Divine errata. It's also noteworthy that, post-errata, Divine Metamagic can only be applied to to divine spells.
DisposableHero_ 10-21-05, 08:30 PM	also note that since the CD errata you must have the metamagic feat in question before you can take the divine metamagic version. So quicken spell and divine metamagic (quicken spell) is legit for this build, but divine quicken and divine twin are not. He may also want to consider the libris mortis domain that grants extra turning, as its more useful for a divine meta user than the elemental turns.
tsuyoshikentsu 10-21-05, 08:55 PM	First of all, Air and Fire turns can't be used to power DM. I tried to do this with an Archivist and found out it didn't work. Second off, there are ways besides disallowing characters to work around that. Have him fight against a bunch of evil lackeys of an NPC, watch him waste all of his turn attempts... and then throw some undead at him. I guarentee you, the other PCs will have a big "sure wish we had some GRENADES!" moment. EDIT:He may also want to consider the libris mortis domain that grants extra turning, as its more useful for a divine meta user than the elemental turns. lol, We're trying to STOP this guy, not help him! :D
Lilt 10-21-05, 09:10 PM	First of all, Air and Fire turns can't be used to power DM. I tried to do this with an Archivist and found out it didn't work. Second off, there are ways besides disallowing characters to work around that. Have him fight against a bunch of evil lackeys of an NPC, watch him waste all of his turn attempts... and then throw some undead at him. I guarentee you, the other PCs will have a big "sure wish we had some GRENADES!" moment.Actually he's likely to have a few turnings left-over. With the new legal build (with the undeath domain for another extra turning) he'd have 18 turns. As he uses them 5 at a time, he'd probably have 3 left-over to explode the undead with.lol, We're trying to STOP this guy, not help him! :DNot really, these are the character optimisation boards, not the character termination boards. The guy obviously has a concept. His original ideas were incorrect but there's no reason we can't also leave the guy with an optimised (and legal) character at the end of it.
LordArkan 10-22-05, 12:39 AM	Where are you getting the idea that Extra Turning applies to your domain turning abilities?
PhoenixInferno 10-22-05, 01:17 AM	Where are you getting the idea that Extra Turning applies to your domain turning abilities? It came from a Rules of the Game article - which I personally disagree with. And since it doesn't say Official Eratta or Official FAQ, I don't pay any attention to it, rules wise. Though it IS a useful read and sometimes funny to see how much the developers are destroying their own game.
tsuyoshikentsu 10-22-05, 01:40 AM	Actually he's likely to have a few turnings left-over. With the new legal build (with the undeath domain for another extra turning) he'd have 18 turns. As he uses them 5 at a time, he'd probably have 3 left-over to explode the undead with. So throw more undead at him. Any problem can be solved with a suitable number of zombies. Not really, these are the character optimisation boards, not the character termination boards. The guy obviously has a concept. His original ideas were incorrect but there's no reason we can't also leave the guy with an optimised (and legal) character at the end of it. Read the post. He's a DM trying to find a problem with a PC's build.
PhaedrusXY 10-22-05, 10:06 AM	So throw more undead at him. Any problem can be solved with a suitable number of zombies.I'm going to stick this in the Quotes thread. Very funny. Read the post. He's a DM trying to find a problem with a PC's build.So what? They already trashed the guy's build. Not hurting anything by leaving him with a little something so he doesn't feel like the DM is picking on him. D&D isn't a DM vs. Players competition.
Aerk 10-22-05, 11:58 AM	D&D isn't a DM vs. Players competition. It... it isn't? Oh.
zivpeled 10-22-05, 05:22 PM	Turn/Rebuke Undead: 3 + 3 CHA + 4 Feat + 4 Feat = 14 Turn attemps Air Domain Special Ability: 3 + 3 CHA = 6 Turn attemps Fire Domain Special Ability: 3 + 3 CHA = 6 Turn attemps Total Turning attemps of various types: 14 reg + 6 air + 6 fire = 24 attempts (i have made corrections in the counting here as reflected by my points) first thing first lets reduce the panic level here ... extra turning only efects the turn/rebike undead not the diffrent types. second thing to use the DM cheez you need the meta magic feat in the first place. third i think he can only use true turn/rebuke undead attempts to charge the DM. so at best he has 14 usable atemptes .... in that case let him rip with them and then bring in the zombies. one or two incaunters like this and he will be hoging those turn attempts like they are gold, just in case....
darkmatter 10-22-05, 06:43 PM	So people seem to think that the solution to the DM cleric is to constantly use undead. Isn't that going to make the campaign be very one-sided and boring. Also if you start using undead all the time, won't he just save a few more turning uses? If you plan the campaign around thwarting the players, it will suck for you and for them because it will be obvious.
Namarus 10-22-05, 06:59 PM	Build an evil cleric exactly like his and use him for bolstering his undead :)
EvilVegan 10-22-05, 07:08 PM	Well turn undead is generally worthless (in my experience) and it is typically easier just to beat things up with a big stick and use the turn attempts for feats that use them. Also, let the guy get some night sticks later on, see how he then feels about wasting 2 feats on extra turning.
tsuyoshikentsu 10-23-05, 02:34 AM	So people seem to think that the solution to the DM cleric is to constantly use undead. Isn't that going to make the campaign be very one-sided and boring. Let's take a look at the Monster Manual's list of creatures by type. In the "Undead" section, we find: Allip, bodak, devourer, ghast, ghost, ghoul, lich, mohrg, mummy, nightshades, shadow, skeletons, spectre, vampire, vampire spawn, wight, wraith, and zombies. WIth these mosters alone, you could get a pretty varied campaign. (Albeit one where ghost touch is a touch (pun intended) powerful.) Also, two of these are categories, and five I recognize off-hand as templates. And this is just the MM -- imagine what happens when you add in, say, Libris Mortis or what I expect in Heroes of Horror to the mix. Also if you start using undead all the time, won't he just save a few more turning uses? The entire idea is to punish him for wasting all the turning uses on metamagic. Also, if he doesn't, everyone in the party instantly likes him for having the foresight to bring grenades. If you plan the campaign around thwarting the players, it will suck for you and for them because it will be obvious. Hah, not true. I'm DMing a campaign right now, and I just put the chars up against a situation specifically designed to kill one of them. It worked perfectly, and they didn't suspect a thing.
smrtgmp 10-23-05, 05:11 AM	Hah, not true. I'm DMing a campaign right now, and I just put the chars up against a situation specifically designed to kill one of them. It worked perfectly, and they didn't suspect a thing.As a player, that gets real old, real fast. They might not have noticed it this time, but if you do it regularly they will. Unless they're idiots, in which case natural selection demands that they die horribly.
Da Dinictus 10-23-05, 05:32 AM	also note that since the CD errata you must have the metamagic feat in question before you can take the divine metamagic version. So quicken spell and divine metamagic (quicken spell) is legit for this build, but divine quicken and divine twin are not. He may also want to consider the libris mortis domain that grants extra turning, as its more useful for a divine meta user than the elemental turns....So how many feats would you need for persisting divine spells, now?
tresh 10-23-05, 05:39 AM	Where are you getting the idea that Extra Turning applies to your domain turning abilities? From d20 SRD Extra Turning [General] Prerequisite Ability to turn or rebuke creatures. Benefit Each time you take this feat, you can use your ability to turn or rebuke creatures four more times per day than normal. If you have the ability to turn or rebuke more than one kind of creature each of your turning or rebuking abilities gains four additional uses per day. So player in question gets 42 turn atempts per day, but can't use all of them for powering Divine Metamagic (only turn undead apllies).
tsuyoshikentsu 10-23-05, 12:59 PM	As a player, that gets real old, real fast. They might not have noticed it this time, but if you do it regularly they will. Unless they're idiots, in which case natural selection demands that they die horribly. No, situations where your character's obviously going to die get old real fast. If you make it look like a close fight AND make it look like the Laws of Probability hated them AND don't do it too often, you're fine. In my case, I did it because I, personally and as the person writing the storyline, hated that character. I had to create rules for a whole new race for her, and she just roleplayed it the same way she's roleplayed it for years. Since in this point of the game no resurrection magic outside of reincarnate is available, she now has to think outside the box. Besides, with this undead thing, it usually looks like you tried to tailor to his character and failed... at least to other players. If you're accused of trying to make him look stupid, just shrug and say, "Hey, I hadn't planned on him burning all his turn attempts like that."
acorania 10-23-05, 02:15 PM	Divine metamagic can only be used with turn/rebuke undead attempts, not with the elemental turn/rebuke attempts. Divine metamagic has also been errated so that you need the relevant metamagic feat to take the divine metamagic equivalent. IE: You need Quicken Spell to take Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell). Check the Complete Divine errata. It's also noteworthy that, post-errata, Divine Metamagic can only be applied to to divine spells. As a side note, I play in FR so I was able to tell him he had to have a god, that should make it tougher to have 2 elemental domains, although I haven't looked to see if there is a god with all of them. Sean Mahoney
acorania 10-23-05, 02:18 PM	lol, We're trying to STOP this guy, not help him! :D Honestly I am happy helping him as well. I am proud and happy that he is coming up with crazy builds in all honesty... I am just shocked at this one... so I will allow it if it is legit... but I am going to be a stickler about it. Sean Mahoney
tsuyoshikentsu 10-23-05, 10:44 PM	Honestly I am happy helping him as well. I am proud and happy that he is coming up with crazy builds in all honesty... I am just shocked at this one... so I will allow it if it is legit... but I am going to be a stickler about it. Sean Mahoney See, now I feel bad for yelling at the other guy. Sorry, other guy!
scarymike 10-23-05, 11:09 PM	Honestly I am happy helping him as well. I am proud and happy that he is coming up with crazy builds in all honesty... I am just shocked at this one... so I will allow it if it is legit... but I am going to be a stickler about it. Sean Mahoney Well, as the rest of the thread pointed out, its not legit. Only 14 of his turn attempts are legit for Divine Metamagic, and even then he still needs quicken spell and twin spell in order to qualify for Divine Metamagic (Quicken) and Divine Metamagic (Twin Spell). -Mike
Dauntless 10-24-05, 03:30 AM	Considering how many times he will be capable of doing this, this doesn't seem much more poweful than effectively spending three feats (greater turning, quicken, divine quicken) to replicate Sudden Quicken. Sure SQ has massive pre-reqs, but at least all those pre-reqs can be used individually as well, instead of just powering the SQ.
Funny Slaughter 10-24-05, 03:50 AM	Considering how many times he will be capable of doing this, this doesn't seem much more poweful than effectively spending three feats (greater turning, quicken, divine quicken) to replicate Sudden Quicken. Sure SQ has massive pre-reqs, but at least all those pre-reqs can be used individually as well, instead of just powering the SQ. doh, there things more powerful then others? gs Funny
acorania 10-24-05, 12:03 PM	Alright... so I have communicated all this to my player who is now searching for another character concept and grumbling a lot. Thanks for the help. For fun though, what I am hearing would be the most effective way to make this trick work would be: Human Cha Mod: +3 2 Flaws Domains: Undeath (Libris Mortem) & Any Extra Turning Extra Turning Metamagic: Quicken Spell Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell) Total turn attempts: 3 base + 3 Cha + 4 Undeath + 4 feat + 4 feat = 18 turn/rebuke undead or... 3 quickened spells per day Really if I were going this path I would probably go for Persistent spell instead of quicken... but still an interesting excercise... and could be used with other metamagic feats well too... hrmm... Sean Mahoney
acorania 10-24-05, 12:07 PM	Considering how many times he will be capable of doing this, this doesn't seem much more poweful than effectively spending three feats (greater turning, quicken, divine quicken) to replicate Sudden Quicken. Sure SQ has massive pre-reqs, but at least all those pre-reqs can be used individually as well, instead of just powering the SQ. Well, I wouldn't say that taking 7 total feats and getting 1 free quicken per day is equal to a first level character taking 4 feats and getting it 3x per day (see my last post). I mean, what is the earliest level you can get that 1x per day by taking the sudden version? Sean Mahoney
scarymike 10-24-05, 07:17 PM	Really if I were going this path I would probably go for Persistent spell instead of quicken... but still an interesting excercise... and could be used with other metamagic feats well too... hrmm... Sean Mahoney And I would agree. Persistant route is very powerfull. I'm running a cleric (with prcs) right now who persists divine power (divine metamatic), divine favor (cast as a 7th level spell), rightious might (divine metamagic), and greater vissage of the deity (divine metamagic). just to get that many turning attempts, I had to spend 3 feats on extra turning and buy a nightstick (libris mortis). We don't allow nightsticks to stack.
Dark_and_Stormy 10-25-05, 07:15 PM	On a related note.... Divine Metamagic is only powered by UNDEAD turnings, not elemental turnings, as noted above. The Sun Domain gets a 'greater' turn attempt, which can probably be used for Divine Meta - it's for use against undead. The Radiant Servant of Pelor makes the greater turn attempts = the amount of normal turns, not merely 1. Sun Domain is a pre-requisite for Radiant Servant. Extra Turning is a pre-requisite for Radiant Servant. Y'all see where I'm going, here, right? Assuming you can pull of the domain combo) Human Cleric 1 (Sun+Undead Domains) Level 1 Feat: Extend Spell Human Feat: Persistant Spell Domain Feat: Extra Turning Domain Ability: Greater Turning Flaw Feat1: Divine Metamagic (Persistant) Flaw Feat2: Extra Turning Total @ 1st level: (Assuming CHA+3 Mod) 3(Base)+3(CHA)+4(Undead Domain)+4(Flaw Feat)=14 Turn Undead+1 Greater Turn.... at 1st level. And the Divine Engine is well started - Persistant is available NOW. 14 Attempts can be used to power 2 Persistant Spells, and Leave a Greater Turn attempt 'in reserve'. At level 3, You could pick what ever feat you want, but assuming another Extra Turning Feat, you're now at 18+1 Attempts. Still only 2 persistant spells, but you've got a little more maneuvering room in case of naughty undead incursions. Level 6: Another Extra Turning. 22+1 in total, giving you 3 Persistant Spells (and you have 3rd level Spells now to use them on), and leaving you a single turn attempt, and your greater turn attempt in reserve. You should also have your synergy bonus from Knowledge Religion by now, as you need it maxed out for... Level 7: Paydirt. 1st Level in Radiant Servant. 3(Base)+3(CHA)+4(Undead Domain)+4(Flaw Feat)+4(Level3)+4(Level6)=22 Turn Undead attempts. 3(Base)+3(CHA)+4(Undead Domain)+4(Flaw Feat)+4(Level3)+4(Level6)=22 Turn Undead attempts. Total Turn Undead Attempts: 44. That's 6 divine spells (and Divine Power is conveniently available at this level) persistant., and a couple left over for emergencies. Note also.... Radiant Servant gives Full Martial Proficiencies... so use that Divine Power with something worthwhile.... what are you still carrying that Mace for? I kinda like it, I must confess. ;) (Note: Against my own logic, I can't see anywhere that is implicit that extra turning applies to greater turns... but it seems logical, and I can't see anywhere where it DOESN'T, either....)
kalstrand 10-25-05, 09:51 PM	Well the feat says it applies to any turning you may have.
X-Codes 10-25-05, 10:12 PM	On a related note.... Divine Metamagic is only powered by UNDEAD turnings, not elemental turnings, as noted above. The Sun Domain gets a 'greater' turn attempt, which can probably be used for Divine Meta - it's for use against undead. The Radiant Servant of Pelor makes the greater turn attempts = the amount of normal turns, not merely 1. Sun Domain is a pre-requisite for Radiant Servant. Extra Turning is a pre-requisite for Radiant Servant. Y'all see where I'm going, here, right? Assuming you can pull of the domain combo) Human Cleric 1 (Sun+Undead Domains) Level 1 Feat: Extend Spell Human Feat: Persistant Spell Domain Feat: Extra Turning Domain Ability: Greater Turning Flaw Feat1: Divine Metamagic (Persistant) Flaw Feat2: Extra Turning "Once per day, you may perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning." Greater Turning via the Sun domain is not another pool of turn attempts, it merely alters a single (or, with RSoP, 3+cha mod) turning attempts each day. Also, what in the world of bowtied knickerboxers makes you think that a DM would be sane enough to allow a character with both the Sun and Undeath domains, especially considering that many undead are destroyed or weakened by sunlight? Even a character with the Water and Fire domains makes more sense than that if they are devoted to Obad-Hai.
Dark_and_Stormy 10-25-05, 10:29 PM	"Once per day, you may perform a greater turning against undead in place of a regular turning." Greater Turning via the Sun domain is not another pool of turn attempts, it merely alters a single (or, with RSoP, 3+cha mod) turning attempts each day. Good catch. My mistake.! Also, what in the world of bowtied knickerboxers makes you think that a DM would be sane enough to allow a character with both the Sun and Undeath domains, especially considering that many undead are destroyed or weakened by sunlight? hehe. I felt dirty even as I wrote it. Nevermind that RSoP specifacally mentions: Must have Pelor as Patron Diety (and he doesn't have Undeath). I also figured you could have the planning domain instead, and use the level 1 feat for Extra Turning instead of Extend, as that would come for free from the domain, but you still have the "Must have Pelor" problem. That said, you could argue undeath is your domain so you can fight it more efficiently, I guess... You know all about the undeath condition etc. Bah. Sounds Hollow even in my own ears. On a related note, I believe the LEoF has Amuanator (spelling?) a Sun-god who has the sun and planning domains (and time, I think). Only a small tweak to get Radiant Servants of Amy, baby.
kalstrand 10-29-05, 01:05 AM	Actually the Radiant Servant grants Extra Greater Turning. Unlike the Sun Domain which replaces 1 turn attempt with a greater turn the Radiant Servant adds 3+Cha mod Greater Turning attempts/day.
ronyon 10-29-05, 08:22 AM	Sun + Undeath=Mummies and Dry Liches. A desert god of Undeath could easily have Sun. The Sun scorches all that it touches, leaving withered bodys behind... Glory and Undeath is even easier to justify, as long as becoming undead is your long term goal. The real question is , why arent there any necro-centric Domains granting the Greater Rebuking power? Something that would automatically Command a creature that would have been Rebuked. It's an obvious choice, so where is it?
tsuyoshikentsu 10-29-05, 04:48 PM	Sun + Undeath=Mummies and Dry Liches. A desert god of Undeath could easily have Sun. The Sun scorches all that it touches, leaving withered bodys behind... Whatshisname, Osiris... the Egyptian one... he'd be a good choice for this. Glory and Undeath is even easier to justify, as long as becoming undead is your long term goal. Vecna.
fnord 10-29-05, 05:23 PM	The real question is , why arent there any necro-centric Domains granting the Greater Rebuking power? Something that would automatically Command a creature that would have been Rebuked. It's an obvious choice, so where is it? Because permantant control is more powerful than destruction. The ability to control undead is powerful enough without this boost. Of course, the cleric is powerful enough without Divine Metamagic, so WotC may not see things my way.
General_Ridley 10-29-05, 06:31 PM	Nevermind- didn't notice something.
Timlagor 10-29-05, 08:55 PM	NIGHT STICKS DO NOT STACK there that's better. (well maybe 2: you only get the extra turns while you are holding the stick and you have still used that many turn attempts even after you put it awway so getting out another one will not help you) One problem you can't solve with enough zombies is the guy addicted to the Command Undead spell (he'll have time to get away and rest/buy some more scrolls while his zombies are fighting the rest). There's a reason many DMs ban Persistant Spell (broken with DM; worthless without) Radiant Servant can be adapted to other Gods at the DMs discretion. Sample Build Human Cleric /RSOP 1 Augment Healing 1 Extra Turning 3 Quicken 6 DMQ (quicken not much use til here even with DM and AH is GREAT) 9 DSP 12+ Extra Turning. Attributes in order of importance: Wis 18 Con 12+ (more if possible) Dex 12+ Cha 14-16 (depending on points/rolls) Int 10+ (technically possible to meet the skill Reqs with 8 but not nice) More Con then Dex then Str. (8 is enough str as melee isn't the plan and medium load is fine in full plate) If rolling then: Wis, Cha, Con, Dex, Int, Str. Wear Full Plate (later mithril) + Heavy Shield and cast lots of spells.
tsuyoshikentsu 10-30-05, 03:56 AM	One problem you can't solve with enough zombies is the guy addicted to the Command Undead spell (he'll have time to get away and rest/buy some more scrolls while his zombies are fighting the rest). (Note: I'm talking generic human commoner zombie here.) Actually, because zombies have DR, 16 HP, and can only take a move or standard action every round, if I commanded my zombies to run at, say, Necromancer Bob, and he commanded some, his commanded zombies would only be able to attack my zombies at most twice -- 4 damage max -- before my zombies just ran by them, because I'd just command them to keep moving. On the onther hand, since I have X zombies, where X is enough to overwhelm him, I can just have them merrily move along. Alternatively, I could just send them out in groups of 2X+1, where X is the number of zombies he can command per casting, so one'd always get by -- at least.