4th level bard...time to multiclass? [Archive] - Wizards Community

4th level bard...time to multiclass? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
codpiece
07-31-06, 07:44 AM i am currently using a 4th level bard, and have been playing around with the possibility of multiclassing either next level or very soon. the choices were either rogue or druid. i like the druid because the eventual magic is tempting, but the rogue gives me some practical skills and whatnot.

if its any help with advice, my stats are:

str: 13
dex: 18
con: 10
int: 13
wis: 16
cha: 18

thanks for the help!
Tweedledope
07-31-06, 10:47 AM Well...if you do decide to multiclass, I don't think you should go Rogue because you are already very...roguish. However, if you do dip into Druid, you can easily qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist which is one of the best Bard/Sublime Chord builds around.

-=TD=-
solbergb
07-31-06, 12:45 PM Rule #1 on primary casters (and yes, bards are primary casters).

THOU SHALT NOT DILUTE CASTER LEVELS!!!!!

Pretty much if you multiclass into anything except one of the rare full-casting, full-bardsong PRC's you'll very quickly stop being a bard at all and you will immediately suffer a loss of effectiveness compared to a straight bard.

I'm not kidding. This is not a guideline. This is the truth. Taking even one level of nonbard pretty much will permanently cripple your spellcasting (which is already a bit behind the norm because it has a delayed spell progression). It will also impair your bardsong progression.

If you multiclass away from bard, your goal had better be to become a noncaster-style character, because that is what you'll become.

Fohlucan Lyracist is irrelevant until you are higher than level 10, and requires a ton of suboptimal multiclassing, meaning your character will pretty much suck from levels 5-11. Which may be the rest of your life.

If you *must* stop being a bard, I'd go with rogue3/bard7/arcane trickster.

But you'd probably be better off as straight bard for the next 6 levels or so.
Tytalus
08-01-06, 12:52 AM (and yes, bards are primary casters).

:rofl:

No, seriously, think about what you want to achieve in the end. If you like spellcasting, shoot for something like

Bard9/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord1-2/Virtuoso8-9

9th level spells, better bardic music. If that's not your style, looks for the bard guide on these boards (via the stickies) for other suggestions, like melee bards etc.

Rogue and Druid only if you are heading for Fochlucan Lyrist, but then you've already taken too mant bard levels.
codpiece
08-01-06, 02:05 PM well, in the end i guess i would agree with staying as a bard, as my song and spells would be stunted. thanks for the help guys, i enjoy brutal honesty, and thats what i was looking for.
Todd
08-01-06, 02:14 PM Bard 4 / Binder 2 / Anima Mage 1-4 / Sublime Chord 1 / Anima Mage 5+

Would yeald a very caster focused build that can do a lot of fun stuff.

Bard 4 / Druid 4 / Master Thrower 2 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10

Isn't bad at all, ending up with 18 BAB & 14th level casting for both Bard & Druid. I don't think that it would reall be all that bad in the mid levels either though the following might be better:

Bard 7 / Master Thower 2 / Druid 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 9

IMHO this would be playable at most levels. Only level 10 would really be much of a pain since the loss of BAB will hurt and 1st level Druid casting isn't doing much for you at that point. Still you end up with 9th level arcane spells, 16 BAB, and 10th level druid casting for fun.
JulesCARV
08-01-06, 02:55 PM No need to multiclass, but if you want to, and have unlimited access to books, magazines, etc...

The best way I know of to go for Fochlucan Lyrist is bard 4/druid 1/green whisperer 3/Master thrower 2/Sublime chord 2/Fochlucan lyrist 8.

(why sublime chord 2/fochlucan lyrist 8 and not sublime chord 1/fochlucan lyrist 9? Simply put, unless you have Able Learner, Education, Open Minded, Skill knowledge (knowledge (arcana)) or some other skill-rank helping feat, it's impossible to meet the fochlucan lyrist prerequisites by 11th level in this build. Also, Song of Arcane Power is nice.)

The thing is, with 13 intelligence, you can only do it if you're a human, and you can only do it as a 13-intelligence human if you put essentially every skill point into meeting prestige class prerequisites. Also, it would have been better if you'd worked a druid level somewhere among those bard levels (i.e., taken two levels of bard, then a level of druid, then two more levels of bard, or somesuch: taking druid at the end means buying Perform cross-class as a druid). It costs three feats to boot -- point-blank shot, precise shot, and weapon focus (thrown weapon) -- by level 8.

Green Whisperer is from Dragon 311
Master Thrower is from Complete Warrior
Sublime Chord is from Complete Arcane
Fochlucan Lyrist is from Complete Adventurer

Of course, if you don't mind ending with a base attack bonus of +15 rather than +16, then there's an easier way. Just be a bard 4/druid 1/green whisperer 3/rogue 2/sublime chord 2/fochlucan lyrist 8. Meeting the skill prerequisites is easier, and spellcasting's the same. You don't have a thrown weapon trick, though.

The way I'd do it is one of two ways: bard 4/druid 1/green whisperer 5/sublime chord 1-2/mystic theurge 8-9. The tradeoff here is Song of Arcane Power vs. one more druid level. That gives you 14th-15th level druid casting, 19th caster level sublime chord casting.

The alternative is bard 4/druid 3/green whisperer 3/sublime chord 1-2/arcane hierophant 8-9.

Both of these builds will destroy your bardic music. Sorry.

If you took Able Learner at 1st level, then congrats: you're mostly there. Just take a level of rogue, then continue on being a bard, but this time, with a rogue's maximum ranks in rogue skills too.

Otherwise, you have a somewhat more difficult path: you could take a rogue level, then pick your two favorite rogue skills, and just take the Skill Knowledge feat from Unearthed Arcane to turn two of them into class skills. Or, if you're human, you could use the Human Paragon route, which doesn't even require being a rogue. Pick your ten favorite rogue skills that aren't also bard skills, and then take one as an adaptive skill. Then maybe take Skill Knowledge too, to turn a further two skills into permanent class skills (it's a spent feat, but then, you get a feat from being a human paragon too). You'll need one level of rogue for Trapfinding, though.

So maybe bard 4/rogue 1/human paragon 3/bard 12. Or, if you want to incorporate more of that Sublime Chord optimization stuff, bard 4/rogue 1/human paragon 3/bard 1/virtuouso 1/sublime chord 1-2/virtuouso 8-9, spending your human paragon bonus feat on skill knowledge. Then you can pick Spot, Search, and Disable Device as permanent class skills. Or search, disable device, and open lock. Or whatever.
ed209
08-01-06, 08:27 PM i am currently using a 4th level bard, and have been playing around with the possibility of multiclassing either next level or very soon. the choices were either rogue or druid. i like the druid because the eventual magic is tempting, but the rogue gives me some practical skills and whatnot.

... What race are you?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
codpiece 07-31-06, 07:44 AM	i am currently using a 4th level bard, and have been playing around with the possibility of multiclassing either next level or very soon. the choices were either rogue or druid. i like the druid because the eventual magic is tempting, but the rogue gives me some practical skills and whatnot. if its any help with advice, my stats are: str: 13 dex: 18 con: 10 int: 13 wis: 16 cha: 18 thanks for the help!
Tweedledope 07-31-06, 10:47 AM	Well...if you do decide to multiclass, I don't think you should go Rogue because you are already very...roguish. However, if you do dip into Druid, you can easily qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist which is one of the best Bard/Sublime Chord builds around. -=TD=-
solbergb 07-31-06, 12:45 PM	Rule #1 on primary casters (and yes, bards are primary casters). THOU SHALT NOT DILUTE CASTER LEVELS!!!!! Pretty much if you multiclass into anything except one of the rare full-casting, full-bardsong PRC's you'll very quickly stop being a bard at all and you will immediately suffer a loss of effectiveness compared to a straight bard. I'm not kidding. This is not a guideline. This is the truth. Taking even one level of nonbard pretty much will permanently cripple your spellcasting (which is already a bit behind the norm because it has a delayed spell progression). It will also impair your bardsong progression. If you multiclass away from bard, your goal had better be to become a noncaster-style character, because that is what you'll become. Fohlucan Lyracist is irrelevant until you are higher than level 10, and requires a ton of suboptimal multiclassing, meaning your character will pretty much suck from levels 5-11. Which may be the rest of your life. If you must stop being a bard, I'd go with rogue3/bard7/arcane trickster. But you'd probably be better off as straight bard for the next 6 levels or so.
Tytalus 08-01-06, 12:52 AM	(and yes, bards are primary casters). :rofl: No, seriously, think about what you want to achieve in the end. If you like spellcasting, shoot for something like Bard9/Virtuoso1/SublimeChord1-2/Virtuoso8-9 9th level spells, better bardic music. If that's not your style, looks for the bard guide on these boards (via the stickies) for other suggestions, like melee bards etc. Rogue and Druid only if you are heading for Fochlucan Lyrist, but then you've already taken too mant bard levels.
codpiece 08-01-06, 02:05 PM	well, in the end i guess i would agree with staying as a bard, as my song and spells would be stunted. thanks for the help guys, i enjoy brutal honesty, and thats what i was looking for.
Todd 08-01-06, 02:14 PM	Bard 4 / Binder 2 / Anima Mage 1-4 / Sublime Chord 1 / Anima Mage 5+ Would yeald a very caster focused build that can do a lot of fun stuff. Bard 4 / Druid 4 / Master Thrower 2 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10 Isn't bad at all, ending up with 18 BAB & 14th level casting for both Bard & Druid. I don't think that it would reall be all that bad in the mid levels either though the following might be better: Bard 7 / Master Thower 2 / Druid 1 / Sublime Chord 1 / Fochlucan Lyrist 9 IMHO this would be playable at most levels. Only level 10 would really be much of a pain since the loss of BAB will hurt and 1st level Druid casting isn't doing much for you at that point. Still you end up with 9th level arcane spells, 16 BAB, and 10th level druid casting for fun.
JulesCARV 08-01-06, 02:55 PM	No need to multiclass, but if you want to, and have unlimited access to books, magazines, etc... The best way I know of to go for Fochlucan Lyrist is bard 4/druid 1/green whisperer 3/Master thrower 2/Sublime chord 2/Fochlucan lyrist 8. (why sublime chord 2/fochlucan lyrist 8 and not sublime chord 1/fochlucan lyrist 9? Simply put, unless you have Able Learner, Education, Open Minded, Skill knowledge (knowledge (arcana)) or some other skill-rank helping feat, it's impossible to meet the fochlucan lyrist prerequisites by 11th level in this build. Also, Song of Arcane Power is nice.) The thing is, with 13 intelligence, you can only do it if you're a human, and you can only do it as a 13-intelligence human if you put essentially every skill point into meeting prestige class prerequisites. Also, it would have been better if you'd worked a druid level somewhere among those bard levels (i.e., taken two levels of bard, then a level of druid, then two more levels of bard, or somesuch: taking druid at the end means buying Perform cross-class as a druid). It costs three feats to boot -- point-blank shot, precise shot, and weapon focus (thrown weapon) -- by level 8. Green Whisperer is from Dragon 311 Master Thrower is from Complete Warrior Sublime Chord is from Complete Arcane Fochlucan Lyrist is from Complete Adventurer Of course, if you don't mind ending with a base attack bonus of +15 rather than +16, then there's an easier way. Just be a bard 4/druid 1/green whisperer 3/rogue 2/sublime chord 2/fochlucan lyrist 8. Meeting the skill prerequisites is easier, and spellcasting's the same. You don't have a thrown weapon trick, though. The way I'd do it is one of two ways: bard 4/druid 1/green whisperer 5/sublime chord 1-2/mystic theurge 8-9. The tradeoff here is Song of Arcane Power vs. one more druid level. That gives you 14th-15th level druid casting, 19th caster level sublime chord casting. The alternative is bard 4/druid 3/green whisperer 3/sublime chord 1-2/arcane hierophant 8-9. Both of these builds will destroy your bardic music. Sorry. If you took Able Learner at 1st level, then congrats: you're mostly there. Just take a level of rogue, then continue on being a bard, but this time, with a rogue's maximum ranks in rogue skills too. Otherwise, you have a somewhat more difficult path: you could take a rogue level, then pick your two favorite rogue skills, and just take the Skill Knowledge feat from Unearthed Arcane to turn two of them into class skills. Or, if you're human, you could use the Human Paragon route, which doesn't even require being a rogue. Pick your ten favorite rogue skills that aren't also bard skills, and then take one as an adaptive skill. Then maybe take Skill Knowledge too, to turn a further two skills into permanent class skills (it's a spent feat, but then, you get a feat from being a human paragon too). You'll need one level of rogue for Trapfinding, though. So maybe bard 4/rogue 1/human paragon 3/bard 12. Or, if you want to incorporate more of that Sublime Chord optimization stuff, bard 4/rogue 1/human paragon 3/bard 1/virtuouso 1/sublime chord 1-2/virtuouso 8-9, spending your human paragon bonus feat on skill knowledge. Then you can pick Spot, Search, and Disable Device as permanent class skills. Or search, disable device, and open lock. Or whatever.
ed209 08-01-06, 08:27 PM	i am currently using a 4th level bard, and have been playing around with the possibility of multiclassing either next level or very soon. the choices were either rogue or druid. i like the druid because the eventual magic is tempting, but the rogue gives me some practical skills and whatnot. ... What race are you?