Post/Author/DateTime	Post
windmortal 05-09-06, 06:03 PM	Okay, our DM has given us permission to build a fourth level character where our adventure left off ... blast those smoosh traps. Anyway, I plan to build a monk and I've already rolled them up. 17 I figure for Wisdom, 16 for Dex, 15 for Str, 13 for Con, 13 for Int and 12 for Cha. The character will be human, unless someone can convince me otherwise, and be of lawful neutrel alignment. I guess I'm kind of being lazy, but was hoping board members would throw out their input on how to best build this character. What skills would you take, three feats for being human, where to put the ability point increase. Weapons or no? Armor or no? Oh, and I've got 1,500 gp to spend on anything I like from the players handbook. Anybody have time to share an idea? Thanks
solbergb 05-09-06, 07:28 PM	Ok...from the ground up. #1, your attribute allocations are pretty good, but I'd swap str with dex (str 16 dex 15). Here is what a point of str does for you: +1 to hit melee attacks, +1 damage all attacks +1 to grapple, trip, disarm Easier to stay in light load +1 to climb, jump, swim Here's what a point of dex does for you. +1 to armor class +1 to reflex save +1 to hit for ranged attacks only +1 to tumble, balance, move silent, hide Your job in combat is to hit things. Your secondary job is to disable them, with stunning fist, grapple, trip, etc. You can't do this without an adequate strength. 16 is barely enough, given the BAB hit you'll be taking. Now, an aside on why I don't recommend con 15 and dropping dex to 13...dex 15 is actually an important breakpoint if you take both stunning fist and improved grapple, because it means you can still meet the grapple prereqs when enlarged. It also is a decent place to stop for combat reflexes, since you rarely get more than 3 AOO opportunities in a day, but 3 isn't hugely uncommon if you get reach somehow (and you only get two when enlarged, and two is about what you normally get when enlarged). So a rough, nothing fancy build (which seems like what you want) that does everything monks normally do: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 13, int 13, Wis 17, cha 12 (I'm assuming you rolled these numbers...if you did point buy, you should have less odd numbers) Put the ability bump into constitution (so it is a 14) Human feat: Improved natural attack (monster manual) L1 Feat: Improved Grapple L1 Bonus Feat: Stunning Fist L2 Bonus feat: combat reflexes L3 Feat: Combat Expertise If you aren't allowed Improved Nat Attack, weapon focus or power attack are decent alternatives. For skills, make sure you have a minimum of 5 ranks in all of Jump, Tumble and Balance, otherwise, whatever you like. (these three skills provide synergy for each other). You'll probably want to max tumble too, at least until you get to +14 or +15 bonus. Monks have a great skill list, but not enough skill points to be good at everything. With your high wisdom, a spot/listen/sense motive focus might be good after you get your mobility skills squared away. What this gets you is: AC15, 21 when fighting defensively with full expertise (25 with mage armor, so you can "tank" if you have to, even though it isn't your primary focus) Melee attack of +6 2d6+3 or +4/+4 2d6+3 (and enlarged, 3d6+4). Your attack mod is still a touch low for level 4, but your damage is pretty good (when not fighting full defensive etc). If you have trouble hitting, switch to grappling. Grapple check of +10, which is fairly respectable for your level. When not enlarged you can pretty much crunch rogues, mages and clerics and wrestle pretty well with fighters, when enlarged you can defeat ogres and are entering the range where trolls are a 50/50 chance. Stunning Fist DC of +15, again a reasonable DC for level 4, with room for improvement if you choose to focus on it because of your high wisdom...you'll get another statbump at 8 to give it a shot in the arm. Good all around saves (+6 fort, +6 reflex, +7 will). Also, all of your "odd" attributes are providing feat requisites (int 13 combat expertise, dex 15 providing improved grapple when enlarged) except wisdom, which you'd expect to raise at level 8. Given that you started with five odd attributes, I think this layout does pretty well at making the most of them. For your level 6 feats, good choices are ability focus from monster manual (bump the stun fist DC by two) and for bonus feat I like improved trip. However since you have combat expertise, taking both improved trip and improved disarm is kind of interesting too. Alternately take EWP spiked chain (or some other reach weapon) to get more use out of your combat reflexes. Even without improved trip and proficiency, carrying a masterwork reach weapon is a good idea. It gives free attacks sometimes, so what if they're at -4 (-3 with MW bonus) to hit...they're free! Flurry with kicks. For equipment, you aren't getting much cash, so go with the basic consumables: Cold iron and silver kama's (probably not masterwork, you hit hard enough that DR5 is the same as punching them, you want them for DR10, such as a werewolf or Nymph). These items also serve as cheap items to trip folks with later, expendible...you can drop them instead of being countertripped without the anxiety that dropping a 3000+gp adamantine or magic weapon might produce. ~25gp Oil of Bless Weapon (for DR/good), oil of magic weapon (it gives your fist +1 to hit/damage and can also be used on your crossbow) 125gp Potions of enlarge person, mage armor, protection from evil and cure light wounds (for when casters don't have time for you) 150gp Crossbow for long range combat, with silver and cold iron quarrels. Doesn't have to be masterwork, in a serious ranged combat you'll use oil of magic weaopn anyway. ~50gp Masterwork reach weapon (usually used only reactively, so this needs to be MW on its own) ~335gp If spikes or brambles (SC) are allowed in the game, carry a cheap nunchuck in case the party cleric or druid wants to boost your power. backpack, bedroll, waterskin, rations, cold weather gear, etc ~15gp All of that will eat about 700gp, or half your cash. Investing the other half of your cash in a wand of CLW is probably the best use of your cash (or wand of mage armor, if your party lacks a willing arcanist). Another approach would be to get the cloak of resistance+1 and spend the other 500gp roughly as described above, but with a nonmasterwork reach weapon. If you have a wizard rather than a sorc, and the DM allows it, a pearl of power level 1 (to lend to the wiz, to ensure you get mage armor whenever the wiz gets mage armor) is absolutely the best use of your cash, and use the other 500gp to get the potions above (less mage armor) and a nonmasterwork reach weapon. If you have a sorc without mage armor, consider buying a bunch of scrolls of mage armor, so you'll have some protection when your'e expecting a fight. Seriously, with grapple, a tripping reach weapon, combat reflexes and stunning fist, you may discover that AC isn't as important as you would expect on a melee character. A lot of the time your enemies don't reach you, or are hampered by stun fist or grappling and can't use their best attacks. When you start getting real cash, the +2 attribute items (gaunts of ogre power, amulet of health or periapt of wisdom) and the best resistance cloak you can find are better choices than AC boosters. (of course if you find ring+1 or whatever on an enemy, go ahead). For a long time, prot evil and mage armor are better AC boosters than anything you can possibly afford. At some point an adamantine kama is really handy. Aside from DR penetration, it is a multipurpose tool, letting you chop wood for the fire or break open that locked chest with a flurry of blows....
windmortal 05-09-06, 09:21 PM	How can I take stunning fist when my BaB isn't +8 yet?
windmortal 05-09-06, 09:23 PM	That's great advice, from the ground up. Thanks. Oh about that last post, I see monks receive the stunning attack at first level automatically. Sorry.
Gargs454 05-09-06, 09:56 PM	One problem I see with the proposed build (and please correct me if I'm wrong). But isn't there a BAB requirement for Improved Natural Attack? IIRC a monk has to be about level 6 before he can qualify, but this is off the top of my head. Assuming that INA is not available at level 1, I would take Ability Focus (Stunning Fist). This gives you a boost to your Stunning Fist save DC which will certainly come in handy. Otherwise I don't really have a problem with the recommendations in the above build. For gear, that's all good advice. The only other suggestion, if you're considering going with a Disarm build, would be to get at least one Sai as it gives you a boost to your disarm attempts. You would also want to obviously consider Imp. Dis. then at level 6.
Thanatos42 05-09-06, 10:49 PM	Aye, it requires BAB of +4. If you're going straight monk, that's level 6. One of my favorite monk tricks is wielding a masterwork guisarme. You can make unarmed attacks with your hands full, so you still threaten 5 ft away. It helps you make better use of combat reflexes (unless for some reason you pick deflect arrows at 2nd) and gives you the ability to trip. Sure, you take a -4 penalty to attack roles because you're non-proficient, but it's also a touch attack (since you're tripping). As for your ability selection, I think you've got it dead on. Your two most important abilities (in my opinion) are wisdom and dexterity. Then strength/constitution, and finally intelligence/charisma. You definitely do not want to wear armor. So your only real expense is the mw guisarme. Any other minor magic items you can grab can be really useful (i'm especially fond of rings of jumping).
windmortal 05-10-06, 07:53 PM	Does anyone else have any ideas?
catharz 05-10-06, 08:34 PM	Warforged is a great race for a monk. The penalty to wisdom may look bad on the surface, but look deeper... You don't actually need a high wisdom to be an effective monk. The -2 Cha won't hurt (oh no, only 10!). Although -2 wisdom is effectively -1 AC, your composite plating adds 2, and gives you the option of having armor enhancements (something few monks can boast). If you don't stake Stunning Fist, you can dump wisdom and focus on physical combat. Depending on your feat choices, there are a number of ways to do this. 1) Finesse/Attacks of Opportunity: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 16->18, Int 13, Wisdom 15->13, Charisma 12->10. You could instead put the 15 in Strength or Intelligence. You have to rely on Power Attack to deal the damage. At 1st level an AC of 10+2+3+1 = 16, while not great, is pretty good for a monk. 2) Brute force: Str 17, Dex 15, Con 16->18, Int 13, Wisdom 13->11, Cha 12->10. You could play around with this too, switching Wisdom and Dexterity, for example. This kind of a character can deal a lot of damage with unarmed strikes, especially once you get access to a Battlefist. Both characters have respectable HP for a fighter. Oh yes, and you get an attack sequence which looks like (at 4th level) Unarmed strike +4/+4, slam -1, or Unarmed +6, slam +1. It may not seem like much, but even at that low attack bonus the slam can be very nice to have, especially if you have Improved Trip. Lastly (and this holds true for any monk), there is no shame in pipping in fighter. It can be a pain if you discover that your DM won't let you continue to advance monk levels, but having access to better weapons, and more importantly armor, can be very helpful for a low level character. Plus, power wise, the monk class (like fighter) is approximately two levels long. If you go with Monk 2/Fighter 2 you don't loose much except stunning fist DC.
runestar 05-10-06, 11:21 PM	Are you sure that the warforged's composite plating will not interfere with a monk's special abilities? If so, than that's great... :)
catharz 05-11-06, 01:16 AM	Are you sure that the warforged's composite plating will not interfere with a monk's special abilities? If so, than that's great... :) It isn't "armor." It provides an armor bonus, and can be enhanced like armor (much like bracers of armor). It even gives ASF. But it isn't "armor." Unfortunately that does not extend to mithril and adamantine bodies. If it did...*imagines a 1st level waforged monk with adamantine body* But yes, warforged are great monks, as good in Eberron as Kalashar.