4th Lvl Core Min/Max Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

4th Lvl Core Min/Max Build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fergsta2
05-28-04, 09:20 PM I need help for a upcoming campaign, DM has ruled only core PHB builds allowed(after he saw my Feral Half-Elf, Half-Minotaur, Half-Ogre, Mineral Warrior Barbarian, and our friends Feral Insectoid Wild Dwarf Barbarian builds! Guess he was not expecting such a fearsome duo :) ).

So nevertheless he has put his foot down, and we are back to the drawing board...so just to cause trouble we are looking for a couple builds using all core PHB, to make the characters as powerful as possible. 32 point build.

I was thinking for mine perhaps Human-Ftr/Rog/Bbn/Sor all the first levels cherry picking the first level benefits of each with a 50% BAB, xtra feat. Just not sure which I would make the first, the BBN for the full d12 HD or the Rogue for all the skill points.

Was thinking of taking power attack, weapon focus(morningstar) and perhaps scribe scroll, for a bunch of scrolls of True strike and beefing with Mage Armor.

I know it will be weak at later levels, but I want to come out of the gates with guns blaring, and I will probably move toward the fighter ongoing.

has anyone done this before, need to get the most bang for the buck, and if i can get a bunch of builds together I can work with the other four players to put together a solid min/maxed party, give the DM soemthin to think about...course he could just stomp us all, but I would assume that he would want his new PC to live in my sessions ;)

Thanks
Funny Slaughter
05-28-04, 09:29 PM rogue3/barbarian1/fighter2 is one of the best combos in the game, swashbuckler as an option.

i wouldnt take a sorcerer-level, you can get all these low-level spells as potions and you lose to much (BAB, HP etc)

power attack, weapon focus(morningstar) and perhaps scribe scroll

while power attack is a good feat for nearly any melee-ist you have to pay attention when to use it, look for a calculation on this board.

WF is a suboptimal feat, better to invest into something you can use with every weapon.

scribe scroll is useless, go and buy some potions.

gs
Funny
fergsta2
05-28-04, 09:59 PM which class would you take first the Rog or BBN? skills or hit points?

perhaps should go with power attack, dodge, mobility, improved initiative as feats

what would the best weapon to use be, I chose morningstar as it does both bludgeoning and piercing damage and does the damage of a longsword.

So for a 4th lvl start Rog2\Ftr1\Bbn1

Then plan for fighter at the next level and spring attack and utilize the extra speed of the BBN.

Then Rog3 for the extra sneak attack.

I am not sure how far this campaign will go, but just want to have some direction.

Also not sure about the potion buying, if he thinks I am going to abuse the potion, we just wont find any potions of true strike in stock(me taking power attack is a dead give away)...
Blade2718
05-28-04, 11:08 PM Which is more important to you, combat sustainability or non-combat versatility? Sounds like you value the former, so go Barbarian.

Morningstar is fine, just don't use WF. For a feat, its less-than-perfect.

For a core build, I happen to think Rog16/Ftr2/Bbn2 is good all-around, with lots of skills, good sneak attack, two bonus (fighter) feats, rage, fast movement, improved uncanny dodge, evasion, and three Rogue special abilities.
IceFractal
05-29-04, 03:14 AM Unless you're going for TWF or a shield heavy build, consider a two-handed weapon.

You get the 2 to 1 favorable power attack ratio, it doesn't interfere with sneak attack, and unless you were going for high dex/weapon finesse (which doesn't work with a morning star anyway) its an optimal choice.

Consider the following options:
Greatsword - Yes, its overused, but for a reason, this is as good as it gets in regard to sheer power.
Glaive or other reach weapon, and Improved Unarmed Strike - You can attack with reach (goes well with Spring Attack) and still threaten adjacent squares for AoOs.
Glaive or other reach weapon, and Armor Spikes - If you don't want to spend a feat.
Spiked Chain - Another way to threaten both close and reach ranges.
Another good thing about reach weapons is that they often enable tripping and disarming tactics, while remaining out of attack range and thus avoiding AoOs.

So maybe a Rog/Bar/Ftr build with Spring Attack, using reach weapon primarily, with Improved Trip or Disarm. Spring in, Sneak Attack or disarm from the safety of reach, and Spring out unscathed.

If you can get feats from CW allowed (the general feats are pretty close to core), then consider Sprint (raises speed, good with Spring Attack), and Hold the Line (get AoOs on people who charge you, also combos well with Spring Attack if you move far enough).
fergsta2
05-29-04, 06:20 AM I think it is going to be fairly combat intensive(knowing the group, only a couple of us are role players, the rest just want to attack stuff).

I like how this is shaping up, I think I am liking reach, if I use a glaive and wear a spiked mithril shirt(I have 5400gp to spend), I can take improved trip, Improved initiative, Dodge and mobility then spring attack with my next level.

what kit should I buy +1 weapon or +1 armor? Magic items?
Funny Slaughter
05-29-04, 06:54 AM sounds pretty good, just be sure that you have combat expertise as it is a prerequisite for improved trip.

i was allowed FR-stuff so i had quite some more options and my DM is still trying to figure how he can beat my trip-check, he will think even more when i get my marshal-cohort next level :)

but even without all the extra-wolfberserker-stuff trip is a great feat, especially used in conjunction with spring attack and reach.
your partymembers will appreciate all the enemies thrown to their feets, pretty sure :D

gs
Funny
fergsta2
05-29-04, 07:53 AM Thanks for your help, the more I think about it the more I like it. No-one has played a tripper(or grappler, or anything else for that matter) in our group, so it will be a nice change. i swear the grappling rules must have been written by Ed Greenwood, I had to read them a hundred times to get them, and every time someone grapples we all groan, stop, re-read what you can do, when pinning, etc...tripping is not so bad though...be different, and I know it will be unique.

So I will take: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and

Lvl 1 Rog1 Dodge, Mobility
Lvl 2 Ftr1 Combat Expertise
Lvl 3 Bbn1 Improved Trip
Lvl 4 Rog2
Lvl 5 Ftr2 Spring Attack
Lvl 6 Rog3 Improved Initiative

It should take a while to get to Lvl 6 so that should do me, now i need to figure out the most optimum 32 Point buy allocation for this dude, and how best to spend the 5400 gp
fergsta2
05-29-04, 09:49 AM How does:

STR 18
DEX 14
CON 11
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 8

Look?
(Added my 4th lvl point to STR)

I want to have STR for melee DMG and tripping, and DEX I need for AC and INit, but also prereq for feats as is INT. Put WIS to +1 so I have at least some Will.
handforged
05-29-04, 10:03 AM I would probably drop Int to 13 as the extra skill point won't be incredibly necessary, and the extra point in Con will give you one HP per level, a nice bonus in a combat oriented group. You are right to worry with your will save, and I would strongly consider Iron Will.

~hf
fergsta2
05-29-04, 10:16 AM Yeah, i was thinking that too...so...

STR 18
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 13
WIS 12
CHA 8

Perhaps it makes more sense to take BBN at first level to get the full d12 rather than Rog for the skill pts then?
guarnasco
05-29-04, 10:25 AM Originally posted by fergsta2

Perhaps it makes more sense to take BBN at first level to get the full d12 rather than Rog for the skill pts then?

well...

barbarian at first level are illiterate... U better go rogue first and take the skill points than to have to burn 1 feat later if u wanna read and write for some obscure reason.
fergsta2
05-29-04, 10:26 AM so you don't become literate if you cross class? For some reason i thought you did, guess that is kinda dumb, don't know why I would think that...how would becoming a fighter help me read...
fergsta2
05-29-04, 10:46 AM Yeah, I would like to keep some well roundedness, for role-playing , otherwise, I would just play DDM all the time. So I will keep the rogue at Lvl1
Blade2718
05-29-04, 11:44 AM No, once you gain a level in a PC class that is not illiterate, you become literate.
fergsta2
05-29-04, 12:07 PM hmmm...then I was not dreaming it up, I was just going to look it up too, thanks!
zifnab2525
05-29-04, 12:24 PM With a first level of Rogue you can also sink alot of those skill-points into Search, Disable Device, and Hide/Move Silently. You won't be as potent a Rogue at later levels, but early on there isn't much difference between you and a guy who went pure Rogue. If you like being a rogue, you can cross-class with your Barb points for a while.

Stat-wise, I'd focus on the Con over the Strength, or at least split between the two. A point extra to-hit and damage isn't worth the HP you're sacrificing. If nothing else, get your Dex up and go with light armor, a chain shirt to start and then upgrade to the Mithril Breastplate (it's strong and steel and light as a feather).

Definitely grab the Improved Initiative to hammer in the sneak attack and Power Attack because... every fighter-type needs Power Attack. If you really want to go nuts, climb the Spring Attack tree all the way to Whirlwind Attack. If you really want to gross out your DM, grab the Exotic Weapon(Spiked Chain). Drop Improved Trip and Combat Expertise, and suck up the damage with your higher Con.

I don't know the prereqs off the top of my head, but you might want to look at going Occult Slayer. One of the best prestige classes in the Complete Warrior.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fergsta2 05-28-04, 09:20 PM	I need help for a upcoming campaign, DM has ruled only core PHB builds allowed(after he saw my Feral Half-Elf, Half-Minotaur, Half-Ogre, Mineral Warrior Barbarian, and our friends Feral Insectoid Wild Dwarf Barbarian builds! Guess he was not expecting such a fearsome duo :) ). So nevertheless he has put his foot down, and we are back to the drawing board...so just to cause trouble we are looking for a couple builds using all core PHB, to make the characters as powerful as possible. 32 point build. I was thinking for mine perhaps Human-Ftr/Rog/Bbn/Sor all the first levels cherry picking the first level benefits of each with a 50% BAB, xtra feat. Just not sure which I would make the first, the BBN for the full d12 HD or the Rogue for all the skill points. Was thinking of taking power attack, weapon focus(morningstar) and perhaps scribe scroll, for a bunch of scrolls of True strike and beefing with Mage Armor. I know it will be weak at later levels, but I want to come out of the gates with guns blaring, and I will probably move toward the fighter ongoing. has anyone done this before, need to get the most bang for the buck, and if i can get a bunch of builds together I can work with the other four players to put together a solid min/maxed party, give the DM soemthin to think about...course he could just stomp us all, but I would assume that he would want his new PC to live in my sessions ;) Thanks
Funny Slaughter 05-28-04, 09:29 PM	rogue3/barbarian1/fighter2 is one of the best combos in the game, swashbuckler as an option. i wouldnt take a sorcerer-level, you can get all these low-level spells as potions and you lose to much (BAB, HP etc) power attack, weapon focus(morningstar) and perhaps scribe scroll while power attack is a good feat for nearly any melee-ist you have to pay attention when to use it, look for a calculation on this board. WF is a suboptimal feat, better to invest into something you can use with every weapon. scribe scroll is useless, go and buy some potions. gs Funny
fergsta2 05-28-04, 09:59 PM	which class would you take first the Rog or BBN? skills or hit points? perhaps should go with power attack, dodge, mobility, improved initiative as feats what would the best weapon to use be, I chose morningstar as it does both bludgeoning and piercing damage and does the damage of a longsword. So for a 4th lvl start Rog2\Ftr1\Bbn1 Then plan for fighter at the next level and spring attack and utilize the extra speed of the BBN. Then Rog3 for the extra sneak attack. I am not sure how far this campaign will go, but just want to have some direction. Also not sure about the potion buying, if he thinks I am going to abuse the potion, we just wont find any potions of true strike in stock(me taking power attack is a dead give away)...
Blade2718 05-28-04, 11:08 PM	Which is more important to you, combat sustainability or non-combat versatility? Sounds like you value the former, so go Barbarian. Morningstar is fine, just don't use WF. For a feat, its less-than-perfect. For a core build, I happen to think Rog16/Ftr2/Bbn2 is good all-around, with lots of skills, good sneak attack, two bonus (fighter) feats, rage, fast movement, improved uncanny dodge, evasion, and three Rogue special abilities.
IceFractal 05-29-04, 03:14 AM	Unless you're going for TWF or a shield heavy build, consider a two-handed weapon. You get the 2 to 1 favorable power attack ratio, it doesn't interfere with sneak attack, and unless you were going for high dex/weapon finesse (which doesn't work with a morning star anyway) its an optimal choice. Consider the following options: Greatsword - Yes, its overused, but for a reason, this is as good as it gets in regard to sheer power. Glaive or other reach weapon, and Improved Unarmed Strike - You can attack with reach (goes well with Spring Attack) and still threaten adjacent squares for AoOs. Glaive or other reach weapon, and Armor Spikes - If you don't want to spend a feat. Spiked Chain - Another way to threaten both close and reach ranges. Another good thing about reach weapons is that they often enable tripping and disarming tactics, while remaining out of attack range and thus avoiding AoOs. So maybe a Rog/Bar/Ftr build with Spring Attack, using reach weapon primarily, with Improved Trip or Disarm. Spring in, Sneak Attack or disarm from the safety of reach, and Spring out unscathed. If you can get feats from CW allowed (the general feats are pretty close to core), then consider Sprint (raises speed, good with Spring Attack), and Hold the Line (get AoOs on people who charge you, also combos well with Spring Attack if you move far enough).
fergsta2 05-29-04, 06:20 AM	I think it is going to be fairly combat intensive(knowing the group, only a couple of us are role players, the rest just want to attack stuff). I like how this is shaping up, I think I am liking reach, if I use a glaive and wear a spiked mithril shirt(I have 5400gp to spend), I can take improved trip, Improved initiative, Dodge and mobility then spring attack with my next level. what kit should I buy +1 weapon or +1 armor? Magic items?
Funny Slaughter 05-29-04, 06:54 AM	sounds pretty good, just be sure that you have combat expertise as it is a prerequisite for improved trip. i was allowed FR-stuff so i had quite some more options and my DM is still trying to figure how he can beat my trip-check, he will think even more when i get my marshal-cohort next level :) but even without all the extra-wolfberserker-stuff trip is a great feat, especially used in conjunction with spring attack and reach. your partymembers will appreciate all the enemies thrown to their feets, pretty sure :D gs Funny
fergsta2 05-29-04, 07:53 AM	Thanks for your help, the more I think about it the more I like it. No-one has played a tripper(or grappler, or anything else for that matter) in our group, so it will be a nice change. i swear the grappling rules must have been written by Ed Greenwood, I had to read them a hundred times to get them, and every time someone grapples we all groan, stop, re-read what you can do, when pinning, etc...tripping is not so bad though...be different, and I know it will be unique. So I will take: Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Lvl 1 Rog1 Dodge, Mobility Lvl 2 Ftr1 Combat Expertise Lvl 3 Bbn1 Improved Trip Lvl 4 Rog2 Lvl 5 Ftr2 Spring Attack Lvl 6 Rog3 Improved Initiative It should take a while to get to Lvl 6 so that should do me, now i need to figure out the most optimum 32 Point buy allocation for this dude, and how best to spend the 5400 gp
fergsta2 05-29-04, 09:49 AM	How does: STR 18 DEX 14 CON 11 INT 14 WIS 12 CHA 8 Look? (Added my 4th lvl point to STR) I want to have STR for melee DMG and tripping, and DEX I need for AC and INit, but also prereq for feats as is INT. Put WIS to +1 so I have at least some Will.
handforged 05-29-04, 10:03 AM	I would probably drop Int to 13 as the extra skill point won't be incredibly necessary, and the extra point in Con will give you one HP per level, a nice bonus in a combat oriented group. You are right to worry with your will save, and I would strongly consider Iron Will. ~hf
fergsta2 05-29-04, 10:16 AM	Yeah, i was thinking that too...so... STR 18 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 13 WIS 12 CHA 8 Perhaps it makes more sense to take BBN at first level to get the full d12 rather than Rog for the skill pts then?
guarnasco 05-29-04, 10:25 AM	Originally posted by fergsta2 Perhaps it makes more sense to take BBN at first level to get the full d12 rather than Rog for the skill pts then? well... barbarian at first level are illiterate... U better go rogue first and take the skill points than to have to burn 1 feat later if u wanna read and write for some obscure reason.
fergsta2 05-29-04, 10:26 AM	so you don't become literate if you cross class? For some reason i thought you did, guess that is kinda dumb, don't know why I would think that...how would becoming a fighter help me read...
fergsta2 05-29-04, 10:46 AM	Yeah, I would like to keep some well roundedness, for role-playing , otherwise, I would just play DDM all the time. So I will keep the rogue at Lvl1
Blade2718 05-29-04, 11:44 AM	No, once you gain a level in a PC class that is not illiterate, you become literate.
fergsta2 05-29-04, 12:07 PM	hmmm...then I was not dreaming it up, I was just going to look it up too, thanks!
zifnab2525 05-29-04, 12:24 PM	With a first level of Rogue you can also sink alot of those skill-points into Search, Disable Device, and Hide/Move Silently. You won't be as potent a Rogue at later levels, but early on there isn't much difference between you and a guy who went pure Rogue. If you like being a rogue, you can cross-class with your Barb points for a while. Stat-wise, I'd focus on the Con over the Strength, or at least split between the two. A point extra to-hit and damage isn't worth the HP you're sacrificing. If nothing else, get your Dex up and go with light armor, a chain shirt to start and then upgrade to the Mithril Breastplate (it's strong and steel and light as a feather). Definitely grab the Improved Initiative to hammer in the sneak attack and Power Attack because... every fighter-type needs Power Attack. If you really want to go nuts, climb the Spring Attack tree all the way to Whirlwind Attack. If you really want to gross out your DM, grab the Exotic Weapon(Spiked Chain). Drop Improved Trip and Combat Expertise, and suck up the damage with your higher Con. I don't know the prereqs off the top of my head, but you might want to look at going Occult Slayer. One of the best prestige classes in the Complete Warrior.