Post/Author/DateTime	Post
carnivore 12-20-04, 07:51 AM	In this fourum it has been discussed and agreed that a 4 member Iconic party would consist of the following members: 1)Tank 2)Divine spell caster 3)Arcane spell caster 4)skill monkey the first three roles have been explored with great success and many good builds have been shown to work quite well for each of the roles. However the fourth role has not been explored as much to my knowledge. So this is an attempt to do that. First I will suggest that the 4th role is not skill monkey, but rather Synergy Monkey. Each of the other iconic members will be able to cover the majority of skills that are important, but the 4th member should be able to blend the strengths of the tank, arcane, and divine casters so that the group will function greater than each could individually. Rather than simply being better in skills the Synergy monkey should make the Tank a better tank, the Arcane Caster a better Arcane Caster, the Divine Caster a better Divine Caster. And the whole team should function better as a group. The Synergy Monkey should be able to affect all members of the group, but also directly contribute to the outcome of encounters. They should be able to support all the others, and be fun to play themselves. There are several classes that can do this, but I was thinking of an interesting use of some classes that has not been used (as far as I can tell). Here are a couple of builds that can do this: Ranger 2/ Marshal 3/ Chameleon 10/ Master Thrower 5 Or Ranger 2/ Bard 2/ Marshal 3/ Chameleon 8/ Master Thrower 5 Both builds use Marshal, Chameleon, & Master Thrower The first build is: Human 10 Str 10 27 Dex 16+ 6 item+5 inherent 16 Con 10 20 Int 14+6 item 16 Wis 10+6item 32 Cha 16+6 item+5 inherent+5levels Ranger 1 .Track, Able Learner, city slicker(RoD)to get disguise as a Class skill Marshal 1 ...Skill focus (diplomacy) ..AURA(motivate DEXTERITY) Ranger 2 .Point Blank shot, Rapid shot Marshal 2 AURA(motivate CHARISMA) Marshal 3 Chameleon 1 Weapon focus(dagger) Chameleon 2 BONUS VARIABLE FEAT Chameleon 3 Chameleon 4 .Precise shot Master Thrower 1 .Quickdraw ..trick(palm throw) Master Thrower 2 Master Thrower 3 .exotic weapon (Skiprock) .trick(TRIP SHOT) Master Thrower 4 .Snatch Arrows Master Thrower 5 .Improved Crit trick(weak spot) Chameleon 5 .Weapon focus(skiprock) Chameleon 6 Chameleon 7 Chameleon 8 .two weapon fighting Chameleon 9 Chameleon 10 BAB +16 When possible , always use full attack , two weapon fighting, rapid shot, and use skiprocks, so your attacks look like this: +12/+10/+12/+10, +12/+10/+12/+10, +12/+10/+12/+10, +7/+5/+7/+5, +2/+0/+2/+0, -3/-5/-3/-5 (NOTE: these do not include Dex bonuses to hit, otherwise they would be +8 higher)ALL Ranged Touch Attacks At first glance it looks like a lot of attacks, but not much damage and that would be true. But Damage is not our goal, TRIPPING is our goal. If we can help our team mates control the battlefield, we can help them do their jobs better. As long as no one can get to the spell casters, they are free to cast their spells without getting hit by AoOs. If we can keep the enemy down then the Tank has an easier job of mopping them up. What makes this build such a strong Tripper is .Marshal synergy, by means of his Marshal Aura “Motivate Dexterity”. The Trip shot trick of the MTh is an opposed Dexterity check VS the opponents Strength check. To hit he makes a ranged Touch attack(very easy), the an opposed roll .+8 Dex+11( Cha Marshal)+4(trip shot)=+23! +1d20 (10 average roll)= +33!!!! Which is enough to trip most creatures(that walk), also with a Trip attack you can take a rider off his horse. ALL of this at Range so they cant do anything about it back!!! And they cant get closer to attack you!!! While his ability to help on the battlefield is OK, he also contributes to ALL his teammates at the same time , everyone gets +11 to initiative, and all dex checks including their own trip attacks ,Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move, Silently, Open Lock, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, Use Rope checks. INITIATIVE is very important as whoever gets initiative will usually win an encounter (between equal forces)or at least allow you to avoid a losing encounter with a stronger force. Hide and Move silently will help you stay out of combats that are bad for you. Balance, Ride, and Tumble all help in combat to allow you to perform better and ignore the hazards of the battlefield. He also helps all members with their Charisma skills by means of his Marshal Aura “Motivate Charisma”; this affects .. Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather info, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, USE MAGIC DEVICE. When out of combat these skills are some of the STRONGEST skills to have. And something to remember is that most of the time you WILL NOT BE IN COMBAT! This will also help the cleric Turn Undead (or other) and help the Artificer with UMD, and definitely benefit the Party face if it is not Himself. Already he can use Diplomacy on Animals and magical Beasts at +1d20+35 or undead at +25(base numbers not counting ranks in Diplomacy which would be maxed out at 23, so final would be +58 & +48 respectively) these also do not include items which would further boost the skill checks, or ability boost class skill. He also has spell casting ability at 20th level Caster, ALL SPELLS, ARCANE & DIVINE 6th lvl and lower(provided he has them in his spell book) He can cast CometFall as a 20th lvl cleric or Heal or Acid fog and Chain Lightning as a 20th level wizard, whatever the situation calls for. The Bonus Variable Feat at Second Level will allow even more flexibility as he would be free to pick(only 1/day, chosen at start of day) these when the situation calls for them: 1) Undead Empathy----to use Diplomacy on Undead 2) Investigate--------to enhance the Search Skill 3) Urban Tracking—to enhance the Gather Info skill 4) Improved 2 weapon fighting –for extra martial prowess 5) Jack of All Trades------to use any Skill untrained 6) Metamagic feats 7) Divine feats 8)Improvised weapons----to throw anything at hand(useful if your weapons are not available) Each day he can truly be the tool box so as to allow the other members of the party focus on what they do best, once he uses his spells he can refocus to a Martial and Stealth Aptitude and be ready to go, just as good or even better than the Tank. All of this does not even consider the Ability increase that stacks with his current bonuses (+4 to all Attacks and damage)(+6 to one ability(CHARISMA or choice)). And he adds to the skills of all of the other party members at the same time due to his Marshal Auras. The second build also uses the same classes, but includes Bard for bardic music and sacrifices 2 Chameleon levels , however it gains more attacks and does not require anything special to get Disguise as a class skill. It could also be done with Rogue instead of Bard for more skills. Ranger 1 .Track, Able Learner, Exotic weapon(skiprock) Bard 1 Marshal 1 ... Point Blank shot, Skill focus (diplomacy) ..AURA(motivate DEXTERITY) Ranger 2 . Rapid shot Marshal 2 AURA(motivate CHARISMA) Bard 2...................... Weapon focus(skiprock) Marshal 3 Chameleon 1 Chameleon 2 Precise shot BONUS VARIABLE FEAT Chameleon 3 Chameleon 4 Master Thrower 1 . two weapon fighting, Quickdraw . ..trick(palm throw) Master Thrower 2 Master Thrower 3 . trick(TRIP SHOT) Master Thrower 4 .Improved two weapon fighting, Snatch Arrows Master Thrower 5 .Improved Crit ..trick(weak spot) Chameleon 5 Chameleon 6 .greater two weapon fighting or Bardic music effect Chameleon 7 Chameleon 8 The Key is to keep the BAB at +16 minimum, so you keep the quantity of iterative attacks as high as possible and in preparation for going into EPIC. This build gets (using the full attack ) 4 base attacks +1 rapid shot + 1 two wpn fight + 1 improved two wpn fight +1 greater two wpn fight= 8 attacks With palm throw 2 x 8 = 16 and using skiprocks(richochet attack) 2x 16 = 32 Touch Attacks Using the same strategy all the attacks would be trip attacks. Even if you wanted to do damage 32 x 1d4 (2 average) = 64 damage each round A third build that also would accomplish this is : Marshal 7/ Master Thrower 5/ Chameleon 8 This would give more Marshal Auras to choose from. The best for most parties are(in order of importance, IMO) Motivate Dexterity Charisma Intelligence Determined Caster(bonus to overcome SR) Wisdom. All in All I think the 4th member of any Iconic Party Should be a SYNERGY MONKEY, not just a skill monkey. Well what do you think, .any coments, or opinions(please try for positive ones)? :D
Korwin 12-20-04, 09:08 AM	I thought you can trip only with strength? The defender only can use Dex or Str...
carnivore 12-20-04, 09:15 AM	normally, but the class feature of the "trip shot " trick of the master thrower allows you to make an opposed Dex VS opponents Str for trip attacks. :D
JRedGiant 12-20-04, 09:27 AM	Can I get the source on Chameleon? I assume this is where you're getting Open Lock as a class skill. Is there a way to do this build that also gives Search and Disable Device? Finally, can you take Trip Shot before Palm Throw? IIRC, Palm Throw just gives you more attacks, which isn't as important as getting those first trips down. Unfortunately my Complete Warrior's is at my DM's house.
carnivore 12-20-04, 09:30 AM	look in my signature for Chameleon. you could substitute rogue for bard in the builds to get the other skills. trip shot and palm throw can be in any order, weak spot must be last. :D
carnivore 12-20-04, 04:21 PM	:bump:
Quoriil 12-20-04, 04:30 PM	Chameleon Requirement: Human or Doppelganger doesn't change much but as a human you'd get -2 on listed skip-rock attacks. Otherwise, I love this thing. :)
carnivore 12-20-04, 04:56 PM	Chameleon Requirement: Human or Doppelganger doesn't change much but as a human you'd get -2 on listed skip-rock attacks :) Good catch, i completely forgot, however the attacks are actually better as i was doing this in a hurry and applied the -2 to all the attacks, i will go back and correct it later. :D
JRedGiant 12-20-04, 05:15 PM	Just a thought... The Motivate Dexterity aura gives everyone in your party a bonus to Dex checks, including the ranged trip attack. The Art of War aura gives everyone in your party a bonus to all trip, bull rush, disarm and some other check. Either one works for your trip, but depending on the individual party the Art of War aura "might" be better. It's a player choice and I think Motivate Dexterity will usually win out...the bonus to initiative checks is huge.
Jalokin 12-20-04, 07:32 PM	As I am not familiar with the Marshal, and am not a very big fan of the Chameleon, I would say go with a Bard, even Bard 20. Focus on Bardic Music, and Skill Synergies, for example, 5 Ranks Decipher Script=+2 UMD for Scrolls, 5 Ranks Spellcraft=+2 UMD (this might also be for scroll only, don't have PHB at hand, and to lazy to search the SRD :P ). Basically, with Scrolls/Wands, this guy fills in the niches of the party, he can Fireball, and then Cure Light Wounds, he also buffs the other party members, especially the tank (Bull's Strength anyone?). Anyway, that's my two cp. :cool:
carnivore 12-20-04, 09:58 PM	to see what the marshal class has to offer , i have a link in my sig. the bard is not bad but a combination of Marshal and chameleon work much better and have more to offer. Ranger 2/ Bard 2/ Marshal 3/ Chameleon 8/ Master Thrower 5 will give you far more than Bard 20 will ever give you. i have a link to the Chameleon in my sig also if you want to check it out :D
Bestopheles 12-21-04, 12:14 AM	In this fourum it has been discussed and agreed that a 4 member Iconic party would consist of the following members: 1)Tank 2)Divine spell caster 3)Arcane spell caster 4)skill monkey the first three roles have been explored with great success and many good builds have been shown to work quite well for each of the roles. However the fourth role has not been explored as much to my knowledge. So this is an attempt to do that. First I will suggest that the 4th role is not skill monkey, but rather Synergy Monkey. Each of the other iconic members will be able to cover the majority of skills that are important, but the 4th member should be able to blend the strengths of the tank, arcane, and divine casters so that the group will function greater than each could individually. Rather than simply being better in skills the Synergy monkey should make the Tank a better tank, the Arcane Caster a better Arcane Caster, the Divine Caster a better Divine Caster. And the whole team should function better as a group. The Synergy Monkey should be able to affect all members of the group, but also directly contribute to the outcome of encounters. They should be able to support all the others, and be fun to play themselves. There are several classes that can do this, but I was thinking of an interesting use of some classes that has not been used (as far as I can tell). Here are a couple of builds that can do this: Ranger 2/ Marshal 3/ Chameleon 10/ Master Thrower 5 Or Ranger 2/ Bard 2/ Marshal 3/ Chameleon 8/ Master Thrower 5 Both builds use Marshal, Chameleon, & Master Thrower The first build is: Human or Strongheart Halfling 10 Str 10 27 Dex 16+ 6 item+5 inherent 16 Con 10 20 Int 14+6 item 16 Wis 10+6item 32 Cha 16+6 item+5 inherent+5levels Ranger 1 .Track, Able Learner, (cosmopolitan(before changes) or Versatile)to get disguise as a Class skill Marshal 1 ...Skill focus (diplomacy) ..AURA(motivate DEXTERITY) Ranger 2 .Point Blank shot, Rapid shot Marshal 2 AURA(motivate CHARISMA) Marshal 3 Chameleon 1 Weapon focus(dagger) Chameleon 2 BONUS VARIABLE FEAT Chameleon 3 Chameleon 4 .Precise shot Master Thrower 1 .Quickdraw ..trick(palm throw) Master Thrower 2 Master Thrower 3 .exotic weapon (Skiprock) .trick(TRIP SHOT) Master Thrower 4 .Snatch Arrows Master Thrower 5 .Improved Crit trick(weak spot) Chameleon 5 .Weapon focus(skiprock) Chameleon 6 Chameleon 7 Chameleon 8 .two weapon fighting Chameleon 9 Chameleon 10 Interesting build, and thanks for the detail. A couple notes though: 1) STrongheart halflings can't be Chameleons under RAW. 2) I'm not sure where the versatile feat is from. While the old Cosmopolitan would work (I think), if you had a feat like City Slicker from RoD to get disguise as a class skill, you'd still need a feat to get get bluff as a class skill for your ranger level to get into Chamelon by 6. Jason
Todd 12-21-04, 12:35 AM	Bad post. Ignore.
carnivore 12-21-04, 07:10 AM	i edited the build and corrected the BAB, as for the required ranks in Bluff, Bluff is a class skill for Marshal. :D
JRedGiant 12-21-04, 12:01 PM	In actual play, my healer 9/marshall 3 cohort has gotten a lot of use out of the "add damage to flanking attacks" aura and next session (she just got marshall 3) I'm really looking forward to "motivate dexterity". But I just can't see "motivate charisma" being terribly useful, unless you have a UMD user in the party. I think aura utility would be largely campaign dependant...know your party and know the situations you get in before you go picking your auras.
carnivore 12-21-04, 12:07 PM	try Diplomacy......very powerful effect, also Bluff :D also for turn undead
Scud-O 12-21-04, 02:56 PM	Just a thought... The Motivate Dexterity aura gives everyone in your party a bonus to Dex checks, including the ranged trip attack. The Art of War aura gives everyone in your party a bonus to all trip, bull rush, disarm and some other check. Either one works for your trip, but depending on the individual party the Art of War aura "might" be better. It's a player choice and I think Motivate Dexterity will usually win out...the bonus to initiative checks is huge. If I am not mistaken (and I could be, since my book is at home), Motivate Dexterity is a Minor Aura and Art fo War is a Major Aura. A Marshal can have one of each, Minor and Major, running at one time. If you have both of these running, you could really double your added CHA bonus to your trips, couldn't you (assuming they don't give the same TYPE of bonus...)? Now that I think about it, I think they both give Enhancement bonuses, so it might not work. I'll have to look it up when I get home.
carnivore 12-21-04, 02:59 PM	the major aura is quite weak as it is fixed +1,+2,+3, however the minor aura is only limited to your Charisma bonus, the higher the better :D
carnivore 12-21-04, 03:00 PM	look in my sig for a link to the marshal class , it will help clear up a lot :D
JRedGiant 12-21-04, 03:43 PM	If I am not mistaken (and I could be, since my book is at home), Motivate Dexterity is a Minor Aura and Art fo War is a Major Aura. A Marshal can have one of each, Minor and Major, running at one time. If you have both of these running, you could really double your added CHA bonus to your trips, couldn't you (assuming they don't give the same TYPE of bonus...)? Now that I think about it, I think they both give Enhancement bonuses, so it might not work. I'll have to look it up when I get home. Art of War and Motivate Dexterity are both Minor Auras. They both give circumstance bonuses which do not stack.
Naja 12-21-04, 03:45 PM	Well, no comment from me on Marshal Auras (since my last chars always have at least one level of Marshal...), but: First: Chameleon aside, you don΄t have Trapfinding. (I know, Cham. gives that, but your Focus can be spent elsewhere) Solution is to take at least one level of Rogue. I recommend at least two for Improved Evasion with MT2. Second: If your focus is to reach BAB 16+, why in heavens name just take 7 levels of +1 BAB-classes? Go for 4 (ok 5) or 8. MT 5 is to sweet to discard, but Ranger levels to not add anything to the party in this build. Third: all heavily multiclassed characters should be discussed with the DM for getting Fractional Saves and BAB. ΄Else they turn out to be overpowered in Saves or underpowered in Saves and BAB. So a optimal preface will be: Rogue2/Mar3 for Chameleon, then MT. Rog4/Mar3/Cha8/MT5 for level 20 would be my bet (and it would fit better into the Iconic-4 party, for you need some skills to fulfill all holes there).
JRedGiant 12-21-04, 03:57 PM	try Diplomacy......very powerful effect, also Bluff :D also for turn undead I stand by my statement - aura utilitity is dependent on the rest of the party and the campaign. Lets take my campaign as an example. My cohort, a Healer 9/Marshall 3, has max ranks in Diplomacy, SF: Diplomacy (free from Marshall 1) and a Charisma of 23 with items. This gives me a +24 to her Diplomacy check. Is going from +24 to +30 that important? Not really. No one in the party uses Bluff, particularly not my stodgy, lawful good wizard or his cohort. We have no cleric (hence the healer cohort, btw) so Turn Undead is unimportant. Also, we have a fairly hack n slash, black and white campaign where excessive role playing and negotiation tends to put one of our players (the DM's 12 year old son) to sleep. We have three front line melee specialists, a wizard who can summon, and a ranger/archer. Given that knowledge, is Motivate Charisma better than Master of Tactics for the flanking damage bonus? Now, if you have a party with a bard, cleric, rogue with invisible blade levels who feints as a free action and a warlock who makes frequent use of UMD and an urban campaign light on combat, Motivate Charisma wouldn't just be big. It'd be indispensible. The point is that you can't just create a one-size-fits-all This Aura Is Best list for marshalls. Well, I guess you can, but he who follows it blindly without giving thought to the party and the campaign does so at his peril.
carnivore 12-21-04, 04:04 PM	ranger gives some nice skills to the mix, and feats, and saves,etc... For a full BAB base class it seems to offer the most . if you want to use rogue, try this: Rogue 2/ Ranger 2/ Marshal 3/ Chameleon 8/ Master Thrower 5 gives you everything you want and, Wild empathy(from Ranger)....which will let you use diplomacy on animals and magical beasts. the reason to keep the BAB at 20th lvl +16 minimum, is if you plan to go EPIC, you will have the Maximum # of Base Attacks. :D
carnivore 12-21-04, 04:17 PM	I stand by my statement - aura utilitity is dependent on the rest of the party and the campaign. absolutely i agree with you The point is that you can't just create a one-size-fits-all This Aura Is Best list for marshalls. Well, I guess you can, but he who follows it blindly without giving thought to the party and the campaign does so at his peril. no there is no "one-size-fits-all" aura list, .............However some auras are much better and more useful than others. i am drawing attention in this thread that the 4th mamber of a group should be tailored to magnify the abilities of the rest. many other games are not hack and slash, out of combat abilities have far greater value there. :D
carnivore 12-22-04, 02:55 PM	:bump:
Naja 12-22-04, 03:00 PM	ranger gives some nice skills to the mix, and feats, and saves,etc... For a full BAB base class it seems to offer the most . if you want to use rogue, try this: Rogue 2/ Ranger 2/ Marshal 3/ Chameleon 8/ Master Thrower 5 gives you everything you want and, Wild empathy(from Ranger)....which will let you use diplomacy on animals and magical beasts. Well, Wild empathy is possibly worth it and so on. Really, i΄d just commented on the lack of Trapfinding without using up a focus for it. This one is far more able to cover the Trapmonkey role. the reason to keep the BAB at 20th lvl +16 minimum, is if you plan to go EPIC, you will have the Maximum # of Base Attacks. :D Don΄t call me a fool. Master Thrower 4 will suffice for getting BAB +16 (hence with all iterative attacks), MT 5 as well (BAB +16). Ranger 2/What΄soever 2/Marshal3/Cha8/MT5 will add up to +16, too (as will any combination of 4-7 Classlevels of +1 and the rest in +3/4). As far as I΄m concerned, MT 5 is to sweet to discard and Ranger has to few abilities for a Trapmonkey to be taken over Rogue4 (which gives you Trapfinding, SA+2d6, Evasion [and hence Improved Evasion with MT2] and Uncanny Dodge), as well as 14 more skill points. If you΄re bothered about TWF take the Martial Rogue Variant instead and get two more feats (which can be used to qualify for MT).
mycroft65536 12-27-04, 05:36 PM	Why marshal3?
carnivore 12-27-04, 06:26 PM	2 minor Auras,.....motivate Dex and Chr,.... to get any more will reduce BAB :D
carnivore 12-27-04, 06:57 PM	a different approach would be : marshal 7/ master thrower 5/ Chameleon 8 this would give BAB +17, 5th lvl divine and arcane spls,....but would give 5 minor auras: minor auras: DEX..............dex skills,checks(including Trip Shot trick(master thrower), INITIATIVE Charisma............Cha skills,checks(including turn undead)also Artificers UMD chks Intelligence.........Int skills, checks..........including Spellcraft(help incantatrix(metamagic spell trigger items,metamagic spell effects) Wisdom.............Wis skills,checks........SPOT,LISTEN,SEARCH. ...help find traps Determined caster..........Cha bonus to caster level checks...overcome SR works nicely, however it would be better if a couple of other party members also had a level of Marshal so you could have multiple effects at the same time. exa: marshal 1/arcane caster(Cha based....Sor/warmage/or Wiz(Sacred Chord) AURA=motivate Cha marshal 1/divine caster AURA= motivate Wis marshal 1/Tank (Druid or artificer) AURA= motivate Int Synergy monkey AURA= motivate Dex this way all in the party gain the benefits simultaneously of each aura. :D NOTE: this is ok, the only thing that is limited for multiple marshals working together is GRANTING a Move Action.
carnivore 12-30-04, 08:13 AM	:lightbulb i dont have any books with me right now, but does anyone know if the ranged disarm or ranged pin feats have opposed Dex/Str checks, specificlly if you compare your Dex check to the enemies Str :D
JRedGiant 12-30-04, 09:05 AM	:lightbulb i dont have any books with me right now, but does anyone know if the ranged disarm or ranged pin feats have opposed Dex/Str checks, specificlly if you compare your Dex check to the enemies Str :D Ranged disarm allows a disarm attempt within 30 feet, meaning you make a to hit roll and then an opposed attack roll with your opponant. Ranged pin requires a ranged attack and opposed grapple check. The opponant can escape with a DC15 Strength or DC15 Escape Artist check.
Sisyfos 01-13-05, 09:21 AM	Now that is one impressive build you have there :) I like it a lot.
carnivore 01-13-05, 09:21 AM	thank you :tiphat: :D
Lilt 01-13-05, 01:17 PM	Tripping with skiprocks is interesting, but how useful tripping is without threatening so you can trip again when they try to stand-up? Plus: When you attack a prone enemy with a melee weapon you get bonuses. When you attack a prone enemy with a ranged weapon you get penalties. Still... It's a powerful build and a good team player. I'm just wondering if it really is the best way to go trip-monkey chameleon.
carnivore 01-13-05, 01:26 PM	the main idea is the ease with which you are able to trip....also you let other members of your party beat on them and you keep tripping them. the nice thing is you are not limited to tripping only, you can also mix it up or simply stick to ranged attacks , since most of them will be ranged touch attacks :D
Isthramir 01-13-05, 03:30 PM	Tripping with skiprocks is interesting, but how useful tripping is without threatening so you can trip again when they try to stand-up? When the attack of oppotunity is invoked from someone standing up they are still prone and therefor not able to be tripped. This is a common misunderstanding of the rules ... you cannot keep someone tripped just with AoOs.
GrolubFranco 01-13-05, 05:45 PM	IMHO I don΄t think the 3 iconic characters are enough, you should focus on a support tank I assume, giving flank, sneak attacking whatever. Don΄t think it΄s a good strategy having like a bard for just 4 players. The buffing start to pump when you buff like 3 characters at a time.
carnivore 01-13-05, 06:05 PM	Thats what this character does,he supports ALL the other members of the party at the same time(thru Marshal Auras). also other ways: he can give ranged support to the Tank, by tripping the foe that the tank is fighting. he can support and protect the casters , by tripping enemies who approach to engage them in melee. Exa: an Ogre is going after the Tank, 2 goblins on Worgs are going arter the Cleric, 4 Orcs are sorounding the Wizard. on your turn.....not only do you trip them all, you get to add some damage to all them too, and you havent even moved from where you started...........then your teammates start beating on the downed opponents. he can also support with spells....either casting offensive, defensive, transport, etc.....ALL at 20th lvl caster. in addition he can Mix it up in melee even though he focuses mainly on ranged attacks. His main purpose is to Aid the other members of his party to Do Thier Jobs Better, if they do good he does good, if they survive ...he survives. :D
Zaruthustran 01-13-05, 09:44 PM	Tripping is a huge boost to your party. It effectively gives each party member +4 AC and +4 attack, since a tripped creature is -4 attack and and attacks against prone targets are made at +4 attack. Plus, the target's mobility is compromised--meaning the party can more easily close or flee. A Marshal/Master Thrower is a tremendously useful party booster. For more party boost, take a couple levels of Bard, use a horn (adds +1 to attack and damage morale bonuses from bardsong) and take the bardsong feat that gives a further +1 bonus to attack and damage. Pow! All party members have +3 to attack and damage. Or +7 attack vs. a tripped opponent. :) -z
carnivore 01-13-05, 10:08 PM	let us not forget the other 1/2 of the build......Chameleon 10, gives 6th lvl Arcane and Divine Spells.....................At 20th lvl Caster, also a floating feat to give what you need when you need it(choosen at the start of the day) :D
Dain 01-13-05, 10:35 PM	I don't like the Marshall class in this context because I think the auras are wasted on a party consisting only of 4 characters, where the 2 of them (the cleric and the wizard) don't really benefit that much from the auras, because they're casting spells. Furthermore the class only grants 3/4 BAB, which means that your Marshall 7/Chameleon 8/Master Thrower 5 only has 15 BAB, not 17 as you've posted. Oh, and another thing. What is it with you and guys throwing skip rocks? :D You're obsessed! ;)
carnivore 01-14-05, 07:35 AM	:dancin: skiprocks... :w00t: ...the reason for using skiprocks is to double the number of attacks, which i think is great, because the attack does not have to do much damage for trip attacks,simply hit the target, the more attacks the more chances you have for success. you are correct about the BAB for Marshall 7/Chameleon 8/Master Thrower 5 being incorrect, but it is actually +16 ...........not +15 or +17. about the skiprocks, hmmmm maybe i am obsessed :plotting: im always looking for weapons with useful abilities that give practical benefits....especially if they increase my opportunities for hitting something. the fact that i can reach out and touch something without them touching me back is very nice :evillaugh also you are forgetting any cohorts or NPCs that might be around or an allies............you benefit ALL who are near you. :D
Slim-the-sneaky 03-13-05, 07:05 PM	:bump: :pile: :invasion: long live the bumping armies :evillaugh etc. etc. etc.
carnivore 11-30-05, 06:38 PM	:bump: to save :D
Cannonballninja 12-22-05, 10:04 AM	Very nice build - I commend you good sir. Might I ask though, where could I find myself some skiprocks? More importantly perhaps; what are their limitations on damage when you get your double attacks (could you sneak attack with them like that, or use a swashbuckler's int to damage ability?)
SoulGamit 12-22-05, 11:52 AM	Aren't Skiprocks improvised weapons, or are they actually listed somewere? Also, it'd be better to take a level or three in rogue, take craven, and use a single slashing weapon and get an item of telekinetic boomerang from races of the wild. Admittedly, it is a swift cast item but considering the nature of it, I'm sure peopel could negotiate a reasonable price. Even if you can't, that's OK. What tricks to pick aren't really that clear cut. The first two are easy, being trip shot and palm throw. The other, third trick, could be sneaky shot (if using sneak attacks), two with one blow so you can trip two people per attack, or weakspot to let you hit more often. Also note that sneaky shot works for every attack, and it's based off of a dextarity check. Rogue 4 / Marshel 3 / Master Thrower 5 / Chamelion 8 Now, I have a question, the master thrower's ability says that the +4 doesn't stack with the benefit of the improved trip feat. Does this mean you just don't get the +4 or that you don't get the +4 and you can't make the extra attack after a successful trip?
eternus 01-28-06, 07:08 PM	I'm trying to build a healing, skillful, diplomatic chameleon and started digging your diplomacy numbers, but something didnt add up... the way I understand Wild Empathy to work is, it works LIKE Diplomacy, but doesn't use your diplomacy ranks, so you arent getting a benefit on animals and magical creatures. How are you getting that benefit, or to undead? Or are you just meaning the awesome CHA boost, skills aside. Your numbers don't add up.
RandomEncounter 03-17-06, 11:36 AM	Undead empathy feat, for the empathy checks for charisma. That said, you are correct in the fact he'd only get his ranger level + cha modifier unless he used wild focus.