Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Yekoj 02-18-04, 09:15 PM	Out of politeness for other board-members if you know the context from which the challenge originates please don't give it away--i.e. NO SPOILERS PLEASE. (It is such an amusing suprise to spring on players.) So here is the challenge: Post four 4th level characters that can kill a Young Adult Blue Dragon (102 hp's). Given the dragons excellents senses (per normal) it is very hard for the characters to sneak up on it. Moreover, they have _no good cover_ in which to hide from it. Finally, if they start to win it can simply fly away and recuperate. I await your brilliantly powerful 4th level characters. :) Yekoj
LordArkan 02-19-04, 12:25 AM	How about some rules for what our 4th level characters are? Also, I trust you mean a YOUNG blue dragon, and not a young ADULT blue dragon? (You said 102hp, while a young adult has 189)
Yekoj 02-19-04, 12:46 AM	Sorry, here are more details: ANY four 4th level characters (i.e. a roughly normal, albeit min-maxed adventuring party). Also the characters don't know about the dragon before hand. I.e. they don't have a bushel of Dragon-bane arrows in their backpacks. Basically, just make a party that can "dish-it-out" in combat sufficiently well at 4th level to be able to kill a young dragon with the following stat's (so you don't have to look'em up yourself). Young Blue Dragon HP 102 Init +0 Spd 40 ft., burrow 20 ft, fly 150 ft (poor) AC 21, touch 10, flat-footed 21 Attack +15 melee (d4+1 wings) SA breath weapon - 60 ft line of lightning 6d8 electricity damage SA spell-like ability - 3/day create/destroy water (DC 17) Blindsight 90 ft. Imm. to sleep, paralysis, electricity Quadruple normal vision range in bad light, double normal vision range in good light, darkvision 300 ft. Lawful Evil Fort +10 Ref +8 Will +9 Str 17 Dex 10 Con 15 Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 12 Bluff +13 Concentration +14 Diplomacy +15 Intimidate +3 Listen +13 Search +13 Sense Motive +8 Spot +13 Cleave, Fly-by-Attack, Power Attack Hover - can attack with bite & 4 claws; hemispherical cloud 90 ft radius snuffs small fires, obscures vision, blinds those inside and for 1 round after they exit. Concentration DC 16 to cast a spell inside. Tactics: The dragon hovers near any cluster of PC's moving around from opponant to opponant. If hurt significantly in melee he flies up in the air and blasts away with his breath weapon from a distance.
Fiendish Dire Weasel 02-19-04, 12:54 AM	I think LordArkan was asking what rules are the 4th level PCs to be made under. Can they all have 30's in all thier stats and epic level magic items with max HP every one of thier gestalt levels? Or do they have 12,11,11,10,10,9 for stats with 1hp/level and have to have 1 level of Sorc and Wiz? "Normal" varies quite a bit from game to game.
Yekoj 02-19-04, 01:13 AM	Sorry. How about: 25 point buy no Unearthed Arcana BS whatever the "normal" amount of gold is per the DMG at 4th level no item worth more than 1/4 of this amount of gold (per the DMG) no Dragon Magazine only one template per character max no third party material average hit points/level (i.e. d10 = 5.5) stay in one universe (i.e. no Knight of the Crown / Shiba Defender / Chosen of Bane / Cleric of Wastri) Basically, I'm just sort of stumped on how four 4th level characters have any shot at dishing out 102 points of damage to an enemy that can fly without getting butchered. (I.e. my only ideas on how to deal with such a challenge involve trickery, negotiation, etc. I'm wondering if the "brute force" angle is even possible.) Yekoj
Stoned Golem 02-19-04, 02:08 AM	Hmm, the best way I can think of to kill dragons offhand is with Lahm's Finger Darts from the BoVD. With Lahm's in a wand your primary caster could fire off two fingers a round for automatic 2d4 Dex damage. If you can start off invisible outside the range of its blindsense and possibly have two or more people using it at once, either from memory, scrolls, or with UMD, you stand a good chance of dropping its Dex to 0 before it even knows what's happening. Incidentally, since dragon's don't gain Dex as they age, a Maximized Lahms of 9th or higher caster level can paralyze any dragon if you can get through its SR. If I ever play an archmage with the supernatural ability trick, that'd probably be my pick because a lot of big nasties have low Dex.
balefire42 02-19-04, 02:12 AM	Wizard 3/Rogue1 shoots the dragon with a ray of enfeeblement, on average reduces the dragons strength to 12. Cleric 4 casts bulls strength on the below character Half-ogre Barbarian 1/Fighter 2 Feats: Owlbear Berserker, Imp. Unarmed Strike, Imp. Grapple, Earth's Embrace Str: (17) 23 [31] Dex: (14) 12 Con: (14) 16 [20] Int: (8) 6 Wis: 8 Cha: (8) 6 () denotes base stat, [] denotes stat with bull's strength and rage Grapple check while raging: 3 BAB + 4 size + 4 imp. grapple + 10 strength = +21 Grapple Damage: d6+10 Above character grapples the dragon, which thanks to ray of enfeeblement has a grapple check of +13. The goal is to pin the dragon (dealing d12 damage each round) long enough for the rest of the party to beat it to death. The cleric buffs himself, and beats on the dragon with a two-hander, the wizard pokes it with chill touches (with sneak attack because the dragon is grappled) The fourth member of the party could be anything, maybe a bard with words of creation using an alphorn to provide a +3 bonus to hit and damage for everyone else. At this point everyone just beats on the grappled dragon and hopes that it never manages to escape the grapple. If it manages to fly into the air, there isn't much that can be done. (besides shooting it with Lahm's Finger Darts)
Druid Roxors 02-19-04, 02:32 AM	pfft, easy!! 4 druids, level 4 Each with a Staff of Languor (Masters of the wild), Spell focus and greater spell focus, 18 wisdom. All of them shoot at the same time and the dragon is paralized. thats (4d6-4)x4 Strenght damage, on a will save, AND its per round! What do i win!? (you obviously get a staff that is caster level 8 minimum and each use costs 10 charges) Edit: In fact, make it two druids, since enhancement penalties do not stack correctly. The other two can be other fun classes like wizards, 2 wizards with ray of Enfeeblement.
Lorimo the Disbeliever 02-19-04, 03:01 AM	Druid + scroll of Miasma. In order to hold his breath dragon must know the meaning of foul smell. I.e. make Spellcraft check. And sadfully, he got zero points in it.
fruits and vegetables 02-19-04, 04:46 AM	4 half ogre archers with srength bows appropriate to their strength. that should do it fairly easily as long as they use range penalties when the dragon tries to escape. oh, and since they only get one attack anyway they can use move actions to give themselves a few extra rounds of attack.....unless the dragon flys upward anyway. which will probably happen after noticing this.
Neonsamurai 02-19-04, 05:44 AM	Balefire's approach looks good. That would be about the way i'd go as well.
fruits and vegetables 02-19-04, 06:06 AM	4, halfogre/barbarian 1/ranger 1/fighter 1 all have strength bows appropriate for strength. halfogre for stat boost, increased size for larger weapon for more damage. barbarian for stat boosts. ranger can have favored enemy dragons. fighter for extra feat. that's pretty good. this is a weak party in most other respects though.
Boondoggle 02-19-04, 07:37 AM	First, Yekoj, the dragon in question needs to be updated to 3.5, or you need to specify that these are 3E characters. Secondly, this dragon won't retreat. In fact, it will do everything in its power to keep the PCs from driving it away. (That's as close as you'll get to a spoiler :D ) I think the best tactic for that level would be ray of enfeeblement on the dragon, bull's strength & enlarge person on the raging fighter/barbarian who is holding the trailing rope of the net entangling the dragon and using improved trip to keep the dragon prone and easy to hit while the TWF fighter/rogue flanks and dishes out sneak attack damage. The wizard will use touch of idiocy once the dragon is prone so the cleric's doom is more likely to stick. Then the cleric will commence to beat on the dragon while the wizard uses chill touch to add insult to injury, and, of course, take the AoO the dragon will likely be producing every round.
Funny Slaughter 02-19-04, 08:35 AM	tripping is indeed a possible way to go. half-giant/half-ogre(template) barbarian1/fighter1 str 18 + 6 racial +4 rage = 28 (+9) trip: 9 (str) + 8 (size) + 4 (wolf berserker) + 4 (improved trip) = +25 young blue: +3 (str) i would say we have a winner :) since this is quite overwhelming we can focus on grapple and trip at once: half-giant/half-ogre(template) monk1/fighter1 IUS, imp. grapple, expertise, improved trip trip: 7 + 8 + 4 = +19 grapple: BAB 1 + 7 (str) + 8 (size) + 4 (imp. grap) = +20 young blue: +15 a fair chance to grapple the dragon, trip is nearly garantueed. the only probem is to get the dragon on the ground gs Funny
adiaven 02-19-04, 09:15 AM	gs, how do you get a +8 size bonus against a young blue dragon? how big is a half giant half ogre?
Funny Slaughter 02-19-04, 09:34 AM	half-giant is medium but considered large. by applying half-ogre he gets large and is considered huge. see the psionic excerpt on the wotc-site for more info gs Funny
Previn 02-19-04, 10:58 AM	Heh, my group 'brute forced' that encounter. It was some time ago (a year or two), so let me see if I can remember what we did. I'll try to keep it as spoiler free as possible. The group was: Human Rogue, 4th Human Wizard 4th Human(?) Ranger 4th ?? Fighter 4th What I remember: The rogue had snuck in and was scouting the area. The dragon was inside, sleeping, but otherwise doing it's thing that it was there to do the people there. Upon spying the dragon, the rogue waved the rest of the group up to the entrance to the area the dragon was in. They held there while the rogue tried to sneak across and get a sneak attack on the dragon. He didn't make it, the dragon getting up and letting a breath weapon loose as the first combat action of the encounter. The rogue evaded, and the ranger and fighter saved, the wizard took it full on, and was left with 3-5 hp. The parties' first round was attacks, the ranger and rogue engaged in flanking (ranger in front the rogue behind), and the fighter used a bow to add to the damage, and mage retreated back and out of the immediate area, and drank a potion to recover hp. Second round the dragon engaged the rogue and removed about half of his hp, and the group engaged it again. The mage moved back in and began magic missiling it. Flanking postions were maintained. Third round the dragon engaged the ranger, removing most of her hp, and the group continued the beating, with the ranger getting a critical. This round after shooting the fighter dropped his bow and drew a sword. Fourth round, the dragon breathed again, catching the ranger and fighter, and droping the ranger to less than 8 hp, and fighter to less than half. The ranger delayed for the rogue to sneak attack, then moved back to the fighter and quafed a potion to heal. This put the fighter and ranger in the entrance/exit way, the rogue behind the dragon and the mage out past the fighter and ranger. The rogue had fumbled his weapon this round, and picked up one that was on the conviently on the ground, a mace of some sort. Fifth round the dragon was hurting at this point, and took an attack on someone, maybe the rogue (?), and then made for the entance/exit to either escape, or get in the air to use it's breath weapon. It sucked up 3 attacks for doing so (it was relying it's ac to protect it from them), one of which was a critical, and died. After the encounter, we all agreed that if the dragon had been out in the open or had made it out alive, it would have been the end of us. But we were not an optimized party in any sense of the word. {Edit: Oh, heavens no. We can't have indented parapgraphs now can we?!?:headexplo }
LordArkan 02-19-04, 11:11 AM	You realize the Hover tactic won't work, as a Young Dragon is not Large size? Therefore, no debris, no blinding, no concentration checks.
Yekoj 02-19-04, 11:32 AM	A few comments: Boondoggle is right--the dragon is 3.0e (hence the hover business). Also, I'm not really looking for 4 Half-Ogres w/bows or 4 Druids with Staves (no offense to either poster--thansk for your ideas!) I'm just trying to get a feel for the intended relation between "DM nice-guy tactics" and "player min-max" required for this encounter to be doable. For example, I think Previn's DM let them off easier than he might have. Some DM's are "mean" and focus all of the enemies' attacks on the weakest PC in an effort to thin their ranks. "Nice" DM's spread the damage around evenly so that everybody is beat up but nobody is dead. Obviously, this encounter gets a lot harder if the dragon doesn't waste it's breath weapon on the rogue and focuses all its efforts on killing the mage ASAP before flying up into the air and trusting in its ranged superiority to carry the day. So far the consensus seems to be that the best party tools are: 1) ability damage 2) grapple with 3) distance weapons/spells being a less potent third option So I wonder: Do all min-maxed low-level party need a grappler / netter to deal with flying enemies? And, do all good min-maxed low-level parties need some ability drain methods of attack to deal with big HP / DR enemies? Yekoj
Previn 02-19-04, 12:37 PM	Originally posted by Yekoj For example, I think Previn's DM let them off easier than he might have. Some DM's are "mean" and focus all of the enemies' attacks on the weakest PC in an effort to thin their ranks. "Nice" DM's spread the damage around evenly so that everybody is beat up but nobody is dead. Obviously, this encounter gets a lot harder if the dragon doesn't waste it's breath weapon on the rogue and focuses all its efforts on killing the mage ASAP before flying up into the air and trusting in its ranged superiority to carry the day. I think you need to re-read what I posted. The first breath weapon hit all four party members, the second got the two fighters, who were in the way of the dragon preventing it from getting to a more advantagous postion. The dragon also didn't have a reason to chase a mostly dead low level mage when it would have taken 3 AoO and had three people capable of dealing signifigantly more damage than the wizard, who in this encounter is pathic. Second, if you have a "mean" DM in this encounter, your party is dead. The dragon will always be ready for you, flying and just nailing you with breath weapons every d4 rounds. A party unprepaired at 4th level won't have the resources to deal with a dragon that is above their party level. The point isn't to kill the PCs, that's not called "mean" DMing, it's called BAD DMing. You don't put the PCs up against a CR6, and then stack the encounter area against them, and then give the creature perfect tactics. Originally posted by Yekoj So I wonder: Do all min-maxed low-level party need a grappler / netter to deal with flying enemies? And, do all good min-maxed low-level parties need some ability drain methods of attack to deal with big HP / DR enemies? No and no. The dragon is only so dangerous because it is a dragon. Take away the flying, or the breath weapon and you have an encounter that a low level group can handle. The problem here is that you are trying to take a CR that is above the players, and give it every concievable advantage. You should check out encounter designer's website, his message boards give a number of groups that have successfully dealt with this encounter without being optimized for the task.
PhaedrusXY 02-19-04, 01:45 PM	Originally posted by Yekoj So I wonder: Do all min-maxed low-level party need a grappler / netter to deal with flying enemies? And, do all good min-maxed low-level parties need some ability drain methods of attack to deal with big HP / DR enemies? Yekoj Well, in the "Party Essentials" or whatever that thread was called, I basically argued that every group should have some kind of grappler/tripper. I don't think that is 100% true, but both are such powerful and useful techniques in many situations, that they can be a substantial addition to a party. They can make the difference between an encounter being extremely difficult or impossible to instead being trivial or moderate. At the higher levels, a Polymorphed or Shapechanged PC can fill the need for the most part, but at low to mid levels you don't have those options. As far as the average party not having any options to deal with the "mean DM" version of the dragon jumping them and strafing with it's breath weapon, I disagree. Every wizard I play has the Rope Trick spell either memorized or on a scroll at all times (and I think this should be the case for all wizards). If this happens, you all can just hop into the Rope Trick and wait for it to leave, or prepare yourselves and exit to fight it.
SiegeSage 02-19-04, 01:50 PM	Having DM'd this encounter, I agree that it is quite tough, our group experienced two character deaths (out of six people, cautious play would have kept them alive) - but it also gave rise to one of the greatest moments in my groups gaming career, and started a trend with a character that became somewhat absurd. The dragon killed one character (Monk) in melee, barbecued another (the mage) with his breath weapon (silly mage cast flaming sphere next to the dragon with a +14 reflex save, heh), The dragon had taken significant damage from ranged fire from the goup - as well as the short melee it was involved in. It decided to drop down onto the sorceror that had been hammering it with spells and crossbow bolts. Little did the dragon know that the sorceror had used a stone salve to become almost impervious to it's attacks. After the dragon used a full attack on the sorc, the party dropped it to 20HP and it decided to flee into the sky. 4 AOO's later the dragon was at 3HP and about to take off when the stoneskinned sorc decided to try and grapple it to keep it from getting away. We laughed. We rolled. He won. Dragon got a 3, he rolled a 20. Even with his grapple mod of 1 he still caught the dragon, then he rolled and hit the dragon - for three points of subdual. One captured young blue dragon later. . . The character preceded to do the same thing (roll incredibly well while I rolled incredibly poorly) to the next two dragons he met. Anecdotes aside though - the only reason they won it was because of stoneskin. The dragon, if played to it's inteligence, should probably wipe the floor with the PC's. as an aside - why can't/won't the dragon run away? My take on it was that it was merely a nice lair - not something it would die over (fight yes - die no).
Yekoj 02-19-04, 02:11 PM	Previn: I'm sorry. I did misread your post. Also, my terms "nice" and "mean" DM were, as you point out, inaccurate. That said, I'm not sure that a CR of 2 higher than the party level + "stacked" terrain + perfect tactics is ALWAYS "bad" DMing. I would expect that if Snow Savant's Bard, Funny's Fighter / Barbarian / Rogue, my Druid, and mean liar's Monk were to face the blue dragon with perfect tactics we would have a shot at coming out on top (probably due to Snow's clever use of bluff, diplomacy, and Summon Monster I rather than anything the rest of us might do... :) Phaedrus: I'm starting to warm to your claim that a tripper/grappler ought to be part of "Party Essentials" (and rope trick now that you mention it). SiegeSage: You are correct that the module designer tried to "soften up" the dragon by placing certain restrictions on its behavior. However, I didn't want to hear about how to "scare it off"--I was interested in whether there were solid tactics that a moderately min-maxed party could use (without knowing that they would be facing a dragon) to KILL it--I'm bloodthirsty :). This has actually been really interesting. I may start posing other 'archtypical' battle challenges to see what people suggest as good tactics. Yekoj
Matt Neuman 02-19-04, 03:23 PM	The party I ran through this had a hard time with this encounter, but it wasn't all that bad. I think 2 party members were knocked unconcious, but survived. IIRC our party was a not very min-maxed group of: human barbarian 2/fighter 2 half-elf cleric 3/fighter 1 human rogue 1/wizard 3 (eventually became a Arcane Trickster) human monk 4 It's been a while, but I remember thinking how lucky they had been. IIRC, they got lucky with a web spell in the first round which effectively gave them time to prep for the encounter, while the dragon (and, ergo the party) was in total cover. When the dragon wiggled part-way out of it, they peppered him with ranged attacks for quite a considerable amount of damage. Still, he got off a couple of BWs which cooked a party member or two before they got him.
Snow Savant 02-19-04, 03:46 PM	Out of politeness for other board-members if you know the context from which the challenge originates please don't give it away--i.e. NO SPOILERS PLEASE. Is it okay now to ask where this challenge came from? Also, you could probably rig up a scenario where an Ether Scarab (SM-II spell) could open up a Planar Rip to the Negative Energy Plane. Then you cast Greater Slide (2nd Level spell - MH book) to scoot him right through it. POOF - No more Dragon. Battering Ram could also push him into the Planar Rip. That's a Cleric/Mage combo right there (or Bard/Mage - Whee!). Use the party Tanks to facilitate the combo. XO, Snow :cloud9:
Yekoj 02-19-04, 03:52 PM	I'll email you privately Snow. BTW, I just KNEW you would be able to to dispose of a dragon with a Summon Monster spell! Yekoj
Cynosure 02-19-04, 08:44 PM	Snow, you're forgetting that summoned creatures cannot use teleportation or planeshifting modes of movement while summoned. This actually seems like a fairly easy encounter to me. My DM is absolutely insane and has placed us in encounters that would make most people's head spin. I believe we killed a CR 17 with two characters at level 8 or 9 with no advantages given to the players. Here's how I would do it: First, we have paladin 4 mounted with a lance and spirited charge and Smite Evil. Second, a Human Fighter 1/rogue3 1 Fighter Quick Draw, Flick of the Wrist, Combat Reflexes 2 Rogue 3 Rogue Expert Tactician 4 Rogue Third, a Fighter 4 Specializing in Archery. Fourth, a Wizard or Sorcerer 4 Tactics: Paladin charges and smites with his +1 lance wielding it in 2 hands. That's 3d8+21+4 for smite, averaging 38 damage. The rogue moves in, uses flick of the wrist with his +1 short sword and takes his expert tactician attack. Assuming he has 14 strength, that's two attacks at 3d6+3 each, averaging 26 total damage. So far that's 64 points of damage. Not bad. The archer uses rapid shot and fires twice at mister blue dragon. We'll assume the archer has a 16 strength, a +1 composite Longbow with a +3 strength bonus. Let's also assume that he bought some +1 flaming arrows beforehand. I know he can't buy 50 because that would cost 8000, but 5 only cost 800 gp. :) Damage from that is 1d8+1d6+3+2+2, That's an average of 30 damage in 2 hits. Added to our 64 damage already that's a total of 94 damage. Only 8 to go. We'll get our remaining character to cast Scorching Ray for 4d6 damage. Average of 14 damage, that's a grand total of 108 damage to poor mister blue. Not only have I killed your dreaded blue dragon with a party of level 4's, I have managed to kill him in the first round. I know this is assuming that they all hit, but you have to assume some things in a hypothetical situation such as this. The characters I've listed here all have an attack bonus of anywhere from +6 for the rogue, to a +9 for the archer, so it's not too far fetched that they would all hit. Even so, they could survive a round or two if need be.
Previn 02-19-04, 09:18 PM	Originally posted by Cynosure Paladin charges and smites with his +1 lance wielding it in 2 hands. That's 3d8+21+4 for smite, averaging 38 damage. The rogue moves in, uses flick of the wrist with his +1 short sword and takes his expert tactician attack. Assuming he has 14 strength, that's two attacks at 3d6+3 each, averaging 26 total damage. So far that's 64 points of damage. Not bad. The archer uses rapid shot and fires twice at mister blue dragon. We'll assume the archer has a 16 strength, a +1 composite Longbow with a +3 strength bonus. Let's also assume that he bought some +1 flaming arrows beforehand. I know he can't buy 50 because that would cost 8000, but 5 only cost 800 gp. :) Damage from that is 1d8+1d6+3+2+2, That's an average of 30 damage in 2 hits. Added to our 64 damage already that's a total of 94 damage. Only 8 to go. We'll get our remaining character to cast Scorching Ray for 4d6 damage. Average of 14 damage, that's a grand total of 108 damage to poor mister blue. Not only have I killed your dreaded blue dragon with a party of level 4's, I have managed to kill him in the first round. I know this is assuming that they all hit, but you have to assume some things in a hypothetical situation such as this. The characters I've listed here all have an attack bonus of anywhere from +6 for the rogue, to a +9 for the archer, so it's not too far fetched that they would all hit. Even so, they could survive a round or two if need be. Yeah, that AC 21 is so easy to hit. You only miss half the time on a d20 roll with a +9 to the roll. :rolleyes: You also wouldn't be in a position to charge, in this situtation due to the nature of the encounter area. And you assumed that you sunk up on a foe you didn't know was there, and that all of the characters went before it, and that it wasn't in a position you couldn't reach (possible due to the encounter area), and that every attack hit and did average damage. You know what they say about assuming don't you? Congratulations, you've just described the dream scenario of the player: everything stacked in your favor. :nonono:
Cynosure 02-19-04, 09:52 PM	First of all, why wouldn't I be in a position to charge? The first post described nothing at all about an encounter area in which I couldn't charge. You assumed I couldn't charge. Secondly I never assumed the party snuck up on it, you did. I assumed that they all went first. Almost all dragons have 10 dex, and that particular dragon does not have improved Initiative, therefore his initiative is restricted solely to what was rolled on the dice. Less than all of the characters in my hypothetical party, except maybe the wizard. Third, no one ever mentioned it being in a location which I couldn't reach due to environmental conditions, you assumed that I believed otherwise. I went with what information was given. Congratulations, in your post telling me how much I assumed about the encounter, you assumed more than I did. You know what they say about assuming don't you? :sad: I agree that it has a lot of chance involved, but so does every battle. It could easily swing in either parties favor. This is no dream scenario, Previn. In a Dream scenario, I could've taken out a Great Wyrm Blue Dragon in one hit with a level 1 commoner.
Previn 02-19-04, 11:23 PM	Originally posted by Cynosure First of all, why wouldn't I be in a position to charge? The first post described nothing at all about an encounter area in which I couldn't charge. You assumed I couldn't charge. Secondly I never assumed the party snuck up on it, you did. I assumed that they all went first. Almost all dragons have 10 dex, and that particular dragon does not have improved Initiative, therefore his initiative is restricted solely to what was rolled on the dice. Less than all of the characters in my hypothetical party, except maybe the wizard. Third, no one ever mentioned it being in a location which I couldn't reach due to environmental conditions, you assumed that I believed otherwise. I went with what information was given. Congratulations, in your post telling me how much I assumed about the encounter, you assumed more than I did. You know what they say about assuming don't you? :sad: I agree that it has a lot of chance involved, but so does every battle. It could easily swing in either parties favor. This is no dream scenario, Previn. In a Dream scenario, I could've taken out a Great Wyrm Blue Dragon in one hit with a level 1 commoner. I don't assume anything. I know the encounter quiet well. It's from a published modual from WotC, and I've both fought it as a player, and later run it as a DM. Had you bothered to read all the posts you would know this. I know exaclt what this encounter is, I've got the book open to it right now. Second you did imply that they snuck up, unless you think a dragon is going to let a party get within 30' (the rogue's movement) without hitting them with a breath weapon. Your hypothetical party has at best, +4 to their initiative save the wizard who could have +9. For every character to go first is improbable, to assume it is foolish. Third, the dragon can fly, and had you bothered to read all of the posts, you would have been able to correctly infer that there were places the dragon could be which would not be accessable. Yes, you can copy and paste. Pity you obviously didn't understand what I was saying and thus failed use the witty and cutting remark that I made in the proper context. You also failed to read all the posts, show that I assumed nothing. Not a dream senario? How was it not? What wasn't in your favor? You won initiative, got to within 30' of the dragon without it doing anything, had perfect terrain, never missed when you had a 50% or better chance to miss, and never did less than average damage. Get your head out of the clouds, you stacked EVERYTHING in your favor. It's not debatable.
Cynosure 02-20-04, 12:24 AM	I don't assume anything. I know the encounter quiet well. It's from a published modual from WotC, and I've both fought it as a player, and later run it as a DM. Had you bothered to read all the posts you would know this. I know exaclt what this encounter is, I've got the book open to it right now. I do realize that you've been involved in it, I have read the posts. I was not saying that you assumed anything about the encounter, I'm saying that you assumed something about my post. I must use what information is in the given thread, thus it is impossible for me to ascertain the terrain of said encounter without a detailed map. Second you did imply that they snuck up, unless you think a dragon is going to let a party get within 30' (the rogue's movement) without hitting them with a breath weapon. Your hypothetical party has at best, +4 to their initiative save the wizard who could have +9. For every character to go first is improbable, to assume it is foolish. Again, without a map or any description of the terrain of the encounter, I cannot possibly work around all the elements of the terrain. When no one gives me a terrain type, I must tailor the combat for a flat plane or an open room with minimal obstacles. It is very possible for a party to walk around a corner and see a dragon, in which case both the dragon and the party are surprised relegating no surprise rounds and reliance on initiative order. A Dragons blindsight does not see through physical barriers. I do realize that it is improbable that all the players go first, however a single bad roll (5 or less) on the dragons part and the party almost definitely will. Third, the dragon can fly, and had you bothered to read all of the posts, you would have been able to correctly infer that there were places the dragon could be which would not be accessable. That's funny, because in the sake of fairness I re-read all the posts. Not a single one mentioned a location to which the dragon could move that would be inaccessible to the players. Instead, I found several references where the dragon moved to a 'better' or 'more tactical' locations. This does not infer an inaccessible location. If you want, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say the dragon went first and fired off a breath weapon. You, yourself stated that a wizard failed on his saving throw and did not die. Therefore, even if all failed none would be dead unless the damage rolled was high. As his move action, he flies into the air. That's perfectly fine, as the Wizard pops off a scorching ray, and the archer fires two shots. The Wizard, then takes his move action to get out of range. The rogue and the Paladin ready an action to attack the dragon when it comes within range if they have no ranged weapons (Which would be quite stupid). The Dragon, having an above average intelligence realizes that he has control of the situation and that taking a couple of AoO's is no big deal at this point. He swoops down and performs a fly-by on his largest threat: The archer. Both the Rogue and the Paladin's readied action goes off, THEN they get an AoO for the dragon moving through their threatened area. After all this, the Archer pops off a couple more shots. The dragon should have taken a good amount of damage by now. Etc. etc. etc. You must not have read the last line of my first post... which would end this entire debate. I'm not debating the fact that the encounter was in the parties favor, just that my hypothetical party could kill that dragon. Even so, they could survive a round or two if need be.
Previn 02-20-04, 07:46 AM	Originally posted by Cynosure Again, without a map or any description of the terrain of the encounter, I cannot possibly work around all the elements of the terrain. When no one gives me a terrain type, I must tailor the combat for a flat plane or an open room with minimal obstacles. No you ask, or PM the original poster or someone else who knows the encounter. Originally posted by Cynosure It is very possible for a party to walk around a corner and see a dragon, in which case both the dragon and the party are surprised relegating no surprise rounds and reliance on initiative order. A Dragons blindsight does not see through physical barriers. I do realize that it is improbable that all the players go first, however a single bad roll (5 or less) on the dragons part and the party almost definitely will. Except that you assumed a flat plan or open room, so you can't claim some magical corner that suddenly disappears when it's not convient. The dragon would have long since had time to do something as the party approached your flat plan or open room. Originally posted by Cynosure That's funny, because in the sake of fairness I re-read all the posts. Not a single one mentioned a location to which the dragon could move that would be inaccessible to the players. Instead, I found several references where the dragon moved to a 'better' or 'more tactical' locations. This does not infer an inaccessible location. I suggest you look up word the infer. Originally posted by Cynosure If you want, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say the dragon went first and fired off a breath weapon. You, yourself stated that a wizard failed on his saving throw and did not die. Therefore, even if all failed none would be dead unless the damage rolled was high. As his move action, he flies into the air. That's perfectly fine, as the Wizard pops off a scorching ray, and the archer fires two shots. The Wizard, then takes his move action to get out of range. The rogue and the Paladin ready an action to attack the dragon when it comes within range if they have no ranged weapons (Which would be quite stupid). The Dragon, having an above average intelligence realizes that he has control of the situation and that taking a couple of AoO's is no big deal at this point. He swoops down and performs a fly-by on his largest threat: The archer. Both the Rogue and the Paladin's readied action goes off, THEN they get an AoO for the dragon moving through their threatened area. After all this, the Archer pops off a couple more shots. The dragon should have taken a good amount of damage by now. Etc. etc. etc. You must not have read the last line of my first post... which would end this entire debate. I'm not debating the fact that the encounter was in the parties favor, just that my hypothetical party could kill that dragon. Why would the dragon ever come down from flying in a normal encounter like this? All he need do is toast the oppostion from the air. This is also a tactic that the dragon is suposed to employ in this situtuation. And you still make the massive mistake of assuming that everything hits. Which last line? The one where you brag like twelve year old about how good you are and make the mistake of assuming that a less than 50% to hit = all hits? Let's not forget the one where you think you can kill a blue wyrm with a level 1 commoner?:turkey: {Edit: glaring grammatical errors}
Boondoggle 02-20-04, 08:27 AM	Ok, you both need to stop with the flaming; this is a good thread and doesn't need to be locked, much less hijacked by quote-block upon quote-block of the previous message when neither have much to do with the actual encounter. For the record, the dragon can take to the air, out of reach of the PCs and it can also move to an enclosed room, although it prefers not to during the fight. It doesn't want to leave the area as it has a vested interest in the location. A mounted charge would be possible, but difficult and might require some luck and/or careful tactics to execute successfully in teh space.
Snow Savant 02-20-04, 03:27 PM	Snow, you're forgetting that summoned creatures cannot use teleportation or planeshifting modes of movement while summoned. The Ether Scarab is not "using" the planar rip. He is "creating" it. Hence the allowance ... since it fits in with the specific verbiage of the rule.
JosephKell 02-20-04, 04:42 PM	Diplomacy. Definately Diplomacy Who in their right mind fights a dragon anymore? Make a deal with the dragon to take one trinket and show it off saying that there is a cowardly young dragon with all this good stuff to entice stupid adventurers to go try to get it, thus the dragon can kill off and take all the gear of those adventurers. Become the Dragon's Vassal. Blues are extraordinarily understanding, they are like the evil dragons most likely to bond with lesser races.
Boondoggle 02-20-04, 04:44 PM	summoned creatures cannot use teleportation or planeshifting modes of movement while summoned. Actually, the issue is moot because that clause has been removed with the revision. Now the only restrictions on summoned creatures are further summons and spells costing xp.
Boondoggle 02-20-04, 04:48 PM	Originally posted by JosephKell Diplomacy. Definately Diplomacy It's a good idea, but in this case I think most DMs wouldn't allow it to work. The situation is such that the dragon isn't willing to leave or allow others to pass. The reasons for this, well, that would spoil the fun :D
Previn 02-20-04, 04:50 PM	Originally posted by JosephKell Diplomacy. Definately Diplomacy Who in their right mind fights a dragon anymore? Make a deal with the dragon to take one trinket and show it off saying that there is a cowardly young dragon with all this good stuff to entice stupid adventurers to go try to get it, thus the dragon can kill off and take all the gear of those adventurers. Become the Dragon's Vassal. Blues are extraordinarily understanding, they are like the evil dragons most likely to bond with lesser races. Classic! I love it. DM: You see a maasive blue dragon, it starts to inhale.... Player: I use diplomacy. {rolls} Hey, a 34! DM: ... DM: The dragon is willing to help you now. Ah dimplomacy, is there any encounter it can't screw up?;) {Edit:Boondoggle's right, technically the dragon wouldn't be receptive to it in this instance.}
Cynosure 02-20-04, 05:23 PM	Ok, you both need to stop with the flaming; this is a good thread and doesn't need to be locked /agree I was just trying to get the point across that it could be done, and it wasn't all THAT difficult. Regardless, it's not constructive at all to argue such things, so I'll not say another word about it. Actually, the issue is moot because that clause has been removed with the revision. Now the only restrictions on summoned creatures are further summons and spells costing xp. Sorry about that, didn't know that was removed. Just for the Record... Infer - To conclude from evidence or premises. insufficient evidence = no inference Assume - To take for granted; suppose. Suppose - To assume to be true or real for the sake of argument or explanation. A dimplomacy, is there any encounter it can't screw up? Diplomacy is the most broken skill... We had a player who focused in it once, and our entire combat oriented party never fought again. :D
boytbpc 05-22-04, 09:55 AM	Time to tell us how Yekoj. Its been long enough, so spoil the fun and tell me how.
Critical Mass 05-22-04, 07:13 PM	I DMed a group through this campaign. It was a drastically un-optomized group of Fighter, Rogue, Sorc, Bard, Druid. No one was "scouting," they just all walked in the door and saw the dragon. The melee all charged right in and the casters stood right behind them flinging Magic Missiles and summoning animals (Go little wolverine! Get the dragon!). The Fighter's longsword and bard's whip weren't exactly putting the dragon in much danger, whereas the dragon simply sat there meleeing and taking advantage of the perfect breath weapon setup (and the PCs never moved). It was a massacre. :(
ck2001wendt 05-22-04, 08:03 PM	Don't know if these thoughts are still needed, but: This is a really easy encounter for a party with the proper tools and tactics. If you know you're facing a dragon (even if you don't know the color) it shouldn't be any problem at all. Party: Iconic. Modifications: Rogue is a Wiz 1/Rge 3 AT in training; Cleric can cast Resist Energy and can use scrolls of Protection from Energy. -Make sure your party stays in a skirmish formation so no more than one or two can be hit by the initial breath weapon, but also keep them all within 30 feet so they can aid one another with Cure potions or scrolls of Prot v. Energy. -Use Scrolls of Protection from Energy (375 GP each) in the first round to take away the breath weapon. A high Dex Wizard with Imp Init should beat the dragon, as should a proto-AT Rogue. A Cleric will have about a 50% chance (no Imp. Init for either). For any of these characters that do win Init, make sure they protect 1) the Wizard, 2) the Cleric, 3) the Fighter. This means 50 points of energy resistance, or two breath attacks (doing average damage, assuming failed saves) on each protected character. -Wands of Ray of Enfeeblement are the way to go. 1) Ranged touch attacks and 2) Ability damage are the bane of any dragon (see the Dragon Slaying thread?). Give one to your high-Dex Wizard (perhaps an Elven Rayfighter?) type and one to your Rogue. That's 7 average Str damage a round. Touch AC 10. You WILL hit. 2 or 3 rounds of that and you've taken away the Dragon's melee capabilities completely (not to mention parlyzed it). -While the Wizard and Rogue are wailing away with their Wands, 1) have the Cleric use Prot v. Energy on any unprotected characters; 2) have the Cleric and Fighter use Cure potions, scrolls or spells to keep every one hale and 3) if it doesn't look like anyone's badly wounded, have the fighter do ranged attacks to keep its attention. Obviously, victory isn't assured here, but really it never is. These tools will just make it much easier to face this particular foe. Not having these particular tools will make it significantly harder to win.
Vodalen 05-22-04, 11:06 PM	Originally posted by ck2001wendt -Wands of Ray of Enfeeblement are the way to go. 1) Ranged touch attacks and 2) Ability damage are the bane of any dragon (see the Dragon Slaying thread?). Give one to your high-Dex Wizard (perhaps an Elven Rayfighter?) type and one to your Rogue. That's 7 average Str damage a round. Touch AC 10. You WILL hit. 2 or 3 rounds of that and you've taken away the Dragon's melee capabilities completely (not to mention parlyzed it). Problem is, damage from Ray of Enfeeblement is a)not actually ability damage, but an negative enhancement penalty, so multiple instances don't stack, and b)it can't reduce a creature to less than 1 strength. I do think that ability damage is a great way to take out dragons, but I'd choose Finger Darts instead
Frosthammer John 05-23-04, 03:25 AM	I am really interested in knowing where this comes from, could someone give me a hint to the book its from or Email me its source? Welkrin@yahoo.com I think a party with a specialist grappler and a good combination of other abilities would work well.
ck2001wendt 05-23-04, 11:30 AM	Vodalen said: ---------------------------------------------------- Problem is, damage from Ray of Enfeeblement is a)not actually ability damage, but an negative enhancement penalty, so multiple instances don't stack, and b)it can't reduce a creature to less than 1 strength. I do think that ability damage is a great way to take out dragons, but I'd choose Finger Darts instead ------------------------------------------------------ Have to admit you got me on the 1 Str...was being lazy and didn't check the spell hard enough. Still, dropping a Young Blue dragon to 1 Str, while it allows them to attack, reduces their attack bonus to +7/+2/+2 etc....which isn't that terrible against a 4th level fighter in chain. Also, claw damage is now 1d6-4 and bite is now 1d8-4. Since it can still move, you still have to worry about the BW, but things like Web become much more viable. I will, however, have to contest your reading of Ray of Enfeeblement damage. From the SRD (or the PHB, if you like): "The subject takes a penalty to Strength equal to 1d6+1 per two caster levels (maximum 1d6+5). " That's an UNNAMED penalty to Str. Not an enhancement penalty, whereas spells like Owl's Wisdom and Bull's Strength are specifically Enhancement Bonuses. Unnamed penalties stack, and there's nothing in the spell description to say it can't affect an enemy multiple times.
Bond, James Bond 05-24-04, 09:05 AM	Originally posted by ck2001wendt Unnamed penalties stack, and there's nothing in the spell description to say it can't affect an enemy multiple times. [/B] As far as I know, effects of the same spell never stack. Source : DMG or PHB, cant be more precise, as I dont have my books with me at the moment, sorry.
Grim Sage 05-24-04, 10:12 AM	In 3.0, all modifiers had a type; bonuses with the same type didn't stack, and unnamed bonuses from the same spell source didn't stack. in 3.5, only bonuses have a type, bonuses with the same type never stack, unnamed bonuses or penalties from the same spell source don't stack, and penalties don't have a type and always stack (unless they come from the same spell source as listed above) EDIT: Clarification
pfooti 05-24-04, 01:08 PM	Heh, I'm about to run this very encounter next session. My complaint: my party doesn't have a wizard or a sorc. They think a bard is "good enough". Oh well, maybe after half of 'em die, and are unable to be raised (since the dragon will keep the bodies), one of them will be convinced that a wizard is a good idea. :P Also: the party should know about the dragon ahead of time (don't forget that guy they meet) and should be able to retreat at will. I assume that his desire to not leave his lair too far behind includes not chasing them when they run away to heal up. And since he can't cast heal spells, a few days of whackin' and waiting might work. And finally, since he can't hover anymore, he's a little easier to kill. He would probably do a flyby attack over and over if he takes to the air, but that means not getting a full attack and perhaps leaving the lair too far behind. I'd say that the Dragon in Question, if he stayed on the ground, would be a good challenge for a party of 4-6 players.
Himosan 05-24-04, 02:17 PM	Originally posted by Grim Sage in 3.5, only bonuses have a type, bonuses with the same type never stack, unnamed bonuses from the same spell source don't stack, and penalties don't have a type and always stack This is false. PH p171: "Spells that provide bonuses or penalties ... usually do not stack wth themselves."
ck2001wendt 05-24-04, 03:15 PM	I stand corrected after re-reading the SRD. HOWEVER, my strategy stands. A Wizard with Ray of Enfeeblement memorized will do 1d6+2, avg damage 5. That reduces the Dragon's strength to 12 (on average), which makes him basically a good fighter (Att w. primary weapon +13/+8) with a decent full attack (d8+1, d8+1, d6+1, d6+1, d4+1, d4+1). He's not that big (med or large) so he doesn't have great reach. If you're still worried about his damage, don't get close to him. Use Protection from Energy scrolls in the first round to take away the Breath Weapon, then Ray of Enfeeblement and another Str. draining spell that will stack with the Ray to reduce his Str below 10. His melee attacks are now harmless, or managable for 4th level characters.
Himosan 05-25-04, 03:30 AM	Originally posted by ck2001wendt I stand corrected after re-reading the SRD. HOWEVER, my strategy stands. A Wizard with Ray of Enfeeblement memorized will do 1d6+2, avg damage 5. That reduces the Dragon's strength to 12 (on average), which makes him basically a good fighter (Att w. primary weapon +13/+8) with a decent full attack (d8+1, d8+1, d6+1, d6+1, d4+1, d4+1). He's not that big (med or large) so he doesn't have great reach. If you're still worried about his damage, don't get close to him. Use Protection from Energy scrolls in the first round to take away the Breath Weapon, then Ray of Enfeeblement and another Str. draining spell that will stack with the Ray to reduce his Str below 10. His melee attacks are now harmless, or managable for 4th level characters. That's not really a strategy tho, that's a total party metagame towards beating Dragons. Strategy is something the avg party can come up with. You dont need anything special to beat this critter imho. The rogue hits him with tanglefoot bags, alchemists fire and acid (assuming he cant get flanking early on). The Cleric and Wiz Buff the tank and the Tank deals out reach weapon damage and runs in and grapples the bugger once the tanglefoot grounds him. Roll bad on init and the dragon can be totally hosed; example: Rog: Move Fwd, throw Tanglefoot (dragon saves but move cut in 1/2) Wiz: Enlarge Person on Tank Crc: Bull's Str on Tank Tank: Rage, move in (charging if nec) & grapple dragon, no AoO due to flat footedness. With Str and Size alone a Half Orc can have overwhelming odds (net +7) of keeping the grapple going as long as needed. Encounter is pretty much over at that point, no special magic or feats used. And we haven't even broken out the Tower Shields.
ck2001wendt 05-25-04, 10:24 AM	----------------------------------------------- That's not really a strategy tho, that's a total party metagame towards beating Dragons. ----------------------------------------------- Be a little more careful before you throw around terms like "Metagame," which is a major insult in most RP circles. It certainly is in mine. It's not "Metagame" to try and come up with a viable strategy or equip yourself properly based on the knowledge you have in the adventure. You KNOW there's a dragon coming up (read the thread). you don't know the type, but you know it's a dragon. Some posters have said that you should even know the color before you enter combat, which would mean you'd go in with the Prot. v. Energy already cast to electricity. It's not like you stumble around a corner and the DM says "Hey, there's a blue Dragon!" If that were the case, that's a receipe for TPK, and bad DMing. If I'm a 4th level party, and I learn that I have to face a Dragon, and I know he's not Tiny, the first thing I do is call a Timeout and assess the party's resources. Then I clear the rest of the dungeon, and if I can I return to the nearest town and reprovision. If that's too "Metagame," I'd still rest for the night and make sure my Cleric and Wizard prepare Resist Energy the next day, which at least gives them some protection against that first BW. Facing a Dragon after you've already fought a series of encounters is not smart. If necessary, I'd take a day or two off in the dungeon (making monsters are returning to repopulate it) and write scrolls until I can cover the party. You say that the "average" party can't come up with this strategy, but what's more "average" than going out and buying 4 375 GP scrolls (each character's GP limit= 5,400)? Personally, I can think of far fewer parties who carry around a net than scrolls. People come up with a lot of tactics on these boards for different situations. Are they "Metagaming," or are they simply trying to match the in-world knowledge that high-INT, high experience characters could come up with? A 4th level adventurer is considerably more knowledgable tactically than Joe Peasant, and a 17-18 INT gets into Genius or Super Genius range.
Himosan 05-25-04, 01:02 PM	Sorry your original encounter had wands with ray of enfeeblement too, making it look even more gamed. In any case you know a dragon is around there but is there a magic shop in that corner you can go buy these scrolls from on short notice? Does the local shop have 4 scrolls of Protection From Energy? ========== Imho it's gamed if you rely on casting 4 spells you cant even cast normally. Besides you've ceded the dragon the sky, giving him the option to fly away and wait out the enfeeblement (once he realizes the breath wpn has no effect).
ck2001wendt 05-25-04, 01:32 PM	Wands of Ray of Enfeeblement: Ray of Enfeeblement is one of the most useful 1st level spells out there, and one of the few spells that's better in 3.5 than it was in 3.0. It's also fairly cheap. Scrolls of Prot v. Energy: For 1st level characters I would strongly recommend having enough Resist Energy scrolls for the whole party. At 2nd level I would strongly recommend having enough Prot. v. Energy scrolls to cover the whole party. At 9th level I would strongly recommend having enough Energy Immunity scrolls to cover the whole party. These aren't unreasonable acquisitions. They are within the GP limit of the specified party levels. You don't have to specify the energy type until you cast the spell, so they work in a variety of situations. Energy attacks against the party will get more frequent the higher the level, and taking away the energy attack often takes away the threat on some of these creatures. Whether you can find them or not...that's largely up to your DM's magic level and the GP limit of nearby towns. Getting the local Wizard 5 to write four scrolls for you can lead to an adventure all its own.
Himosan 05-25-04, 01:47 PM	Scrolls of Resist energy are a waste of all your gold at level 1. You could get 3 potions of CLW or 6 scrolls for the same price as 1 and with no chance of failure. Same deal with Prot From Energy at level 2.
ck2001wendt 05-25-04, 02:02 PM	Sorry...I was thinking in reference to the level of spells characters can cast. Resist Energy should be for 2nd level parties and Prot. v. Energy for 4th level parties. Immunity to Energy for 8th-9th level parties.