Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zom 01-24-05, 09:34 PM	This is similar to my cleric thread, however, the group now has a cleric, so I'm going to go sorcerer. This game is core only. Is +5 BAB worth it for a tradeoff of two caster levels? I figure it will help at low levels (basically getting precise shot and point blank at 1st level with fighter) with slightly higher hp and ranged opportunities when I run out of spells. However, the group already has 4 frontliners, so I doubt I'll be in melee much. I also figure it will help with the ray line of spells. My plan is to either go sorcerer20 or fighter1/sorcerer9/eldritch knight 10. 1. Is it common for sorcerers to run out of spells in combat at low levels? When does this usually pick up so you no longer have to use your bow? 2. Is +5 BAB a decent tradeoff for two caster levels?
epchristi 01-24-05, 11:55 PM	I assume the BAB bonus of +5 includes all the levels of Eldrich Knight, correct? In that case, what you are really asking is, is +1 BAB and a feat worth 1 level of sorcerer casting, correct? (I suppose one could argue you need proficiency with all martial weapons.. and that in fact you are trading off two feats..) That is a tough question two answer, IMHO. What are two 9th level spells worth? Or what if you even drop Eldrich Knight.. what are 3 9th level spells worth.. I mean, that's the tradeoff, right? I would assume at 20th level.. anything you can do with a bow is outclassed by your spells.. so any bow feats, IMHO, would be a waste. By 6th level, when you get fireball (and 4 of them if you have a decent CHA) there will be little need for a bow and arrow. If you delay that a level by taking fighter.. that's a whole level your group goes without some massive fire-power. (Pardon the pun.) If it were my PC, I wouldn't give up any caster levels if I could help it. Especially if there were already frontliners in my existing group. I would be content to sit back and wait for the ability to fling some really cool spells. I just think by the time 20th level rolls around, you will have wasted a fair number of feats on an ability to shoot a bow that you will never really use. But I know divine casters far better than sorcerers, so someone who knows more than I, might have an opinion.
Zom 01-25-05, 12:18 AM	Forgot to mention we're starting off at level 1. Thanks for your input. What I meant was, by level 20, I would have +5 BAB, so a total BAB of +15. By doing so I would lose two caster levels (one from a fighter level, one from eldritch knight). So, it would be a slight boost in the beginning, and then an increase in the middle levels. But you're right, I'd have to take into account the delay in progression. I just don't want to be twidling my thumbs in combat for the 1st 5 levels.
epchristi 01-25-05, 12:35 AM	It seems that if you could get to +16 BAB, then the tradeoff might be better. This would give you 4 attacks going epic. (If you are.) I have seen sorcerer builds that get to +16 BAB.. but I still think waiting for spell casting levels is a bad idea. I wish I knew more prcs.. I suspect there are prcs that give you some abilities that stack with sorcerer caster levels. Spellsword is one I have seen mentioned a lot.. but I don't know which book it's in. Another is from unearthed arcana, and that's the battle sorcerer variant, but you give up daily spell slots, which seems like a bad idea... but it gives HD8 and gives 3/4 BAB progression. But.. unless it's +16 BAB or better, I don't think it's worth any caster levels. One last thought.. an archer sorcerer also doesn't make much sense, because with polymorph, and +16 BAB, you will do far more damage in melee. :)
charlesatan 01-25-05, 01:45 AM	Other similar prestige classes you might want to look into are the Spellsword (from Complete Warrior) and Dragonslayer (from Draconomicon). You can also search the forums for "Gish". Now to me, aside from the base attack, another good reason to go Eldritch Knight is the increased hit points. So in addition to whether losing two caster levels is worth it for a better base attack bonus, that's also another benefit you're getting. Personally, it depends on what you want. If you want to focus on spellcasting (which is also a good idea since you did mention you already have 4 frontliners so that you don't compete with their niche), I suggest you go straight Sorcerer 20 (or find a prestige class that gives you full spellcasting ability). The only time I go for Eldritch Knights/Spellswords/Dragonslayers is usually when I want to go into melee myself, and I trade off offensive power (in terms of spells) for defensive prowess (more hit points, better saves). I mean an eldritch knight/spellsword/dragonslayer can probably deal more damage than a fighter of equal level (thanks to feats like Arcane Strike or spells like Polymorph), but of course, you don't have as much staying power as them (because of your lower hit points) and the fact that you use up spells to augment yourself. As for sorcerers running out of spells to cast, it depends on the frequency of combat. I mean if you get one encounter per day, not likely since it's been my experience combat doesn't run longer than five rounds at most. But if you're facing like four encounters a day, some spell management might be called for. And you can always carry a crossbow to make the occassional attack. Sure, 1d8 damage might not be a lot, but sometimes, all it takes is 1 more point of damage to fell your opponents. It also depends on the spells you use. At 1st-level, the Sleep spell can take out as much as 4 opponents. If you were using, say, Magic Missile, you'd probably take out 1 opponent at most, and that's assuming you roll high on the dice.
Azinor 01-25-05, 04:57 AM	You can also trade few levels of sorcerer for Sacred Exorcist : better BAB, turn undead, detect evil at will. Fighter1/Sorcerer4/Eldritch Knight2/Sacred Exorcist5/Eldritch Knight8 BAB16, CL18, consecrate presence, more feats or Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight1/Sacred Exorcist4/Eldritch Knight9 BAB16, CL19
oak 01-25-05, 05:16 AM	You can also trade few levels of sorcerer for Sacred Exorcist : better BAB, turn undead, detect evil at will. Fighter1/Sorcerer4/Eldritch Knight2/Sacred Exorcist5/Eldritch Knight8 BAB16, CL18, consecrate presence, more feats or Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight1/Sacred Exorcist4/Eldritch Knight9 BAB16, CL19 The first example wouldn't qualify for Sacred Exorcist (version from Comp. Divine, correct?) would it? You would need 10th level casting to get the 5th level dismissal spell required for Sacred Exorcist, no? In the second example, I think you'd also have the problem of qualifying for Eldrich Knight (you need to be proficient in all martial weapons). I never noticed that the new Sacred Exorcist could progress arcane casting (assuming you have Dismissal as an arcane spell) instead of divine. Cool... Cheers, - Edward
Azinor 01-25-05, 05:33 AM	my mistake, I missed the spell requirement part. The fixed builds would be : Fighter1/Sorcerer4/Eldritch Knight7/Sacred Exorcist5/Eldritch Knight3 BAB16, CL18, turn undead, detect evil, consecrate presence, more feats or Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight5/Sacred Exorcist4/Eldritch Knight5 BAB16, CL19, turn undead, detect evil
charlesatan 01-25-05, 08:36 AM	I never noticed that the new Sacred Exorcist could progress arcane casting (assuming you have Dismissal as an arcane spell) instead of divine. Cool... - Edward Actually even the old one did as well.
epchristi 01-25-05, 10:30 AM	Sorcerer6/Eldritch Knight5/Sacred Exorcist4/Eldritch Knight5 BAB16, CL19, turn undead, detect evil This doesn't qualify for Eldritch Knight because you don't have proficiency with all martial weapons. But this is certainly the concept to shoot for.
Cappo 01-25-05, 11:07 AM	This doesn't qualify for Eldritch Knight because you don't have proficiency with all martial weapons. But this is certainly the concept to shoot for. That's what Militia from PGtF is for ;)
epchristi 01-25-05, 11:17 AM	That's what Militia from PGtF is for ;) So.. there you have it. CL 19, BAB +16.. but he said the game was core only. But if he can sneak in complete divine and PGtF, then he's set! :)
El_Machinae 01-25-05, 12:24 PM	I've started games at first level, and I really did empathise with the sorcerer for the first few levels - they really feel like they don't have much to contribute, and being so weak, they have to be rather cowardly. Most early XP gained by the sorcerer was due to watching the fights, rather than actively participating. For long-term play, starting at first level, I wouldn't disparage starting with a fighter-type class. You'll lose a bit of the sorcerer oomph, but you'll contribute a lot more at the lower levels. There's no urgent need to start as a fighter though. You could also consider Paladin (detect evil, and use Paladin wands), Ranger (-2 HP, 2 saves, 16 additional skill points, favored enemy), Barbarian (+2 HP, fast movement, 8 additional skills). Compare those vs. the bonus of precise shot. Might be worth it. As well, once you're out of spells, there's no reason to not break out the studded leather and heavy shield.
PhaedrusXY 01-25-05, 12:44 PM	If you're starting at first level, then yeah I'd be tempted to go with ftr1/sorc6/EK10 to start. That way, you can just use your low level spells to buff yourself and wade into melee. I'd try picking spells with no somatic component and just wear armor, at least at first. If you think you'll play longer than that, I'd figure out what other prestige class to go into after Eldritch Knight. There is no point in going back to sorcerer at all.
epchristi 01-25-05, 12:57 PM	What's wrong with just sitting back at lower levels and shooting a crossbow? I mean, 1d8 per round during the first couple of levels helps out just fine. Throw in a magic missile (or even true strike) now and then and you are fine. I think even at first level.. a plain sorcerer is just fine.. and then you don't pass on the caster level and extra spells at 20th.. or even delay them at earlier levels. The sooner you get to third level spells the better. In the mean time, glitter dust or other various and interesting spells compensate in the short run. Just my $0.02. If you can use more books.. then the CL 19 BAB +16 build with sacred exorcist is really a slick idea. That seems worth the tradeoff at that point.
Zom 01-25-05, 06:43 PM	What's wrong with just sitting back at lower levels and shooting a crossbow? Nothing (well, I like bows better anyways, but that isnt the problem), the problem is the -4 penalty for firing into melee, as we have 3-4 frontliners at all times. It's a hard decision but I should have it soon.
epchristi 01-25-05, 09:05 PM	Nothing (well, I like bows better anyways, but that isnt the problem), the problem is the -4 penalty for firing into melee, as we have 3-4 frontliners at all times. Does that mean you are always fighting 3-4 monsters? I know we were always fighting more than 3-4.. and often with a crossbow (playing a cleric) I could get off 2 or three shots before we were even engaged. Also.. with the high CHA of the sorcerer, perhaps you are the group spokes person as well.. (diplomacy?)
Zom 01-25-05, 10:22 PM	We're going to be in a level 1-20 dungeon crawl, so I expect space to be tight with little room to maneuver, and little downtime as well. I may be the spokeman, or the rogue may do it. As a sorcerer I’m not getting too many skillpoints, and the rogue at least gets sense motive. Ouch, I just realized sorcerers don’t even get diplomacy. I don’t know why the book says they can be a face for the party, they don’t even get diplomacy.
Devant 01-26-05, 01:10 AM	Do you have another primary arcane caster in your party?
Zom 01-26-05, 01:14 AM	I will be the only arcane caster for the party, the only other caster we have is a 1/2 druid and possibly a cleric. From what I understand about this dungeon is that there are hardly any scrolls and there will be no downtime, so sorcerer seemed a nice fit (plus I've always wanted to play one). I figure a core game only lowers the power shift a little between the wizard and sorcerer, so if any this is the time to play one.
Nightwing_22 01-26-05, 01:39 PM	I have been playing a Warrior Sorceror for the past year and it is very enjoyable. Fighter1/Sorceror 6/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 2 I have lost 3 caster levels and they were all worth it. I even plan to loose another in two levels. I have an extremly high AC because I can wear armor(Mithral works best), I have a huge number of spells (even though I am don't have 6th level spells) and I have more hitpoints than most of our front line fighters. My saves are also excellent and I rarely run out of spells(My DM was shocked the last time I did). Did I mention that I always confirm the critical on my magical Rays. All you need to do make lost levels work is to take the Practiced Spellcaster feat (which give +4 to caster level [no extra spells]). This effectively replaces the the lost levels in terms of spell power and spell penetration of SR. The base Eldritch Knight is well worth the loss of some ninth level spells. As for party structure and early levels, I would suggest taking your fighter level at second level(or later), as it is easier to explain the gained proficiencies than it is a new found spellcasting ability. If you are going Sorceror, remember to pick a few utility spells as well as combat spells.
Lord Arkhaven 01-26-05, 02:26 PM	I am playing a similar character: Sorceror 6/Exalted Arcanist 5/Paladin 3/Celestial Mystic 6 (10 if we go epic) (Must be Lawful Good) The EA and CM give a lot of great abilities but you lose two caster levels. To compensate I will take Practiced Spellcaster (CD) as a feat, which can add up to 4 caster levels. I thought to add Paladin because with a high Charisma the Divine Grace will give wicked Saving Throws. Then I thought, why not go one more level of Paladin and pick up Turn Undead, that way at level 15 I can pick up Divine Metamagic The feats look like this so far. 1st - Servant of the Heavens 3rd - Purify Spell 6th - Consecrate Spell Bon - Sacred Vow Bon - Vow of Abstinance 9th - Practiced Spellcaster 12th - Maximise Spell 15th - Divine Metamagic (Maximise) 18th - Empower Spell I've played from levels 1 to 4 so far. No problems. Sorcerers are the last to run out of spells in combat I've found. The 5 caster level losses may prove crippling but I'll get 4 back for level dependent effects. The character will also be very survivable. Time will tell.
The Lone Drow 01-26-05, 02:43 PM	Guys, Zom's said it's a core-only adventure. Zom, is there any way your DM might allow the 'Complete' books? Ask him to allow only one class: The Spellsword. That way you'll be able to have a build like Sorceror 8/Fighter 1/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10 That nets you a base attack bonus of +16, only losing out on two levels of spellcasting... If you can't go for the Spellsword, here's my two cents: as much as I hate the concept, be an aasimar and polymorph the hell out of yourself.
Lord Arkhaven 01-26-05, 02:59 PM	I am playing a similar character: Sorceror 6/Exalted Arcanist 5/Paladin 3/Celestial Mystic 6 (10 if we go epic) (Must be Lawful Good) The EA and CM give a lot of great abilities but you lose two caster levels. To compensate I will take Practiced Spellcaster (CD) as a feat, which can add up to 4 caster levels. I thought to add Paladin because with a high Charisma the Divine Grace will give wicked Saving Throws. Then I thought, why not go one more level of Paladin and pick up Turn Undead, that way at level 15 I can pick up Divine Metamagic The feats look like this so far. 1st - Servant of the Heavens 3rd - Purify Spell 6th - Consecrate Spell Bon - Sacred Vow Bon - Vow of Abstinance 9th - Practiced Spellcaster 12th - Maximise Spell 15th - Divine Metamagic (Maximise) 18th - Empower Spell I've played from levels 1 to 4 so far. No problems. Sorcerers are the last to run out of spells in combat I've found. The 5 caster level losses may prove crippling but I'll get 4 back for level dependent effects. The character will also be very survivable. Time will tell.
Lord Arkhaven 01-26-05, 03:46 PM	If it has to be just core then I would do Paladin 2/Sorceror 18. Eldritch Knight overall isn't worth the one caster level loss considering you would have already lost one learning martial weapons. I would lose two caster levels for martial weapons, heavy armour & shields, +3 BAB, +2d10 Hit Points, Detect Evil, and Divine Grace but I wouldn't loose two caster levels for what the Eldritch Knight gives you over straight sorceror.