Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CompleteSatori 08-11-04, 09:51 AM	Barbarian 4/ Fighter 2/ Frenzied Berserker 10 C.G. Half Ogre-Half Troll Human Str 38 (44)[62] Dex 18 (24) Con 24 (30)[38] Int 06 (12) Wis 08 (14) Cha 04 (10) H.D.- 14d12+2d10+160/224 A.C.- 10+7dex+7ar+13na = 37 Base Saves- 14/4/4 (33/13/11[15]) Base Attack- 16/11/6/1 1 -Barbarian- [Destructive Rage], [Intimidating Rage*]/ Fast Movement, Rage 1/day 2 -Barbarian- Uncanny Dodge 3 -Barbarian- [Reckless Rage]/ Trap Sense +1 4 -Barbarian- Rage 2/day 5 -Fighter- [Power Attack*] 6 -Fighter- [Cleave]/ [Combat Reflexes*] 7 -Berserk- 8 -Berserk- 9 -Berserk- [Dodge] 10 -Berserk- 11 -Berserk- 12 -Berserk- [Combat Expertise] 13 -Berserk- 14 -Berserk- 15 -Berserk- [Karmic Strike] 16 -Berserk- 17 -LA- ---------- 18 -LA- ---------- 19 -LA- ---------- 20 -LA- ---------- Gear- +4 Tomes of Strength/Constitution, +1 Tome of Dexterity, Arm of Nyr x2, Belt Magnificence, Cloak of Resistance +5, Ring of Evasion, +2 Aurorum (Furious, Keen, Eager, Wrathful Healing) Large Greatsword, Ring of Freedom of Movement, +1 Mithril (Nimble) Breastplate, Mithril Buckler, Amulet of Natural Armor +5. See, losing 4 levels (5th bought off at 15th level), isn't such a bad thing when you are a Troll FB! He still hits at +45 when hes Raging/Frenzied, and he does as much damage (2d8+39+enhancement) without Power Attack as anything else does WITH Power Attack. Coupled with Fast Healing 5, Reach, and enormous physical stats, hes pretty much good to go. And he's even somewhat harder to hit than a rock! Any thoughts? Would any of you even consider playing this character? EDIT: Built with a 25 point buy.
Caelic 08-11-04, 10:07 AM	This is one of those builds that's strong at level 20, but isn't going to look NEARLY as good if you're actually starting at a lower level. Let's change the question slightly: would you play a character with a 30 Strength, a 20 Con, and 17 hit points...in a game where everyone else is sixth level? All of a sudden, the build doesn't look quite so appealing.
DeadEye 08-11-04, 10:11 AM	Half Ogre's in Savage Species... where's Half-Troll? I've heard it mentioned in passing, but I didn't know there was an official WotC version. Can anyone let me know where I can find it?
Fwib 08-11-04, 10:17 AM	I think the Half-Troll template is from Fiend Folio and that the Half-Ogre above is not the Half-Ogre race from Savage Species, its the Half-Ogre template from that Dragon magazine, 3?? To tell the truth, I can't see why anyone ever uses that Half-Ogre template solo, as the Half-Minotaur Template from the same magazine is _even_more_ cheesy and ridiculous for the same +1 LA.
Lord Arkhaven 08-11-04, 10:19 AM	So this gomer is Half Ogre, Half Troll, and yet somehow human too? Sit down son, it's time we had a talk. When a man and a woman love each other they may feel the need to express that love...
Thannin 08-11-04, 10:25 AM	Originally posted by Lord Arkhaven So this gomer is Half Ogre, Half Troll, and yet somehow human too? Sit down son, it's time we had a talk. When a man and a woman love each other they may feel the need to express that love... Its the old question of what really happens when you apply those templates/prestige classes. An 20th level character looking like this has got to raise some eyebrows. half ogre, half troll,half celestial,half dragon,half elf,half human dragon disciple 10/sorc 1/barbarian 5 with the half celestial template from BOED. Of course I took half elf for the base race, how else would ya get half human and half elf :). So I have six halves, anyone else get more?Thats assuming you're allowed to add two base templates.
Caelic 08-11-04, 10:27 AM	Reminds me of a quote from a middle school music essay I once read: "Handel was half Italian, half German, and half English. He was a rather large man."
michael_noah 08-11-04, 10:35 AM	I actually played a half-troll FB through CotSQ. It's a beautiful thing.
Fwib 08-11-04, 10:36 AM	I usually assume that most of these 'Half-' templates are just 'One of your close ancestors was a-', which solves pickyness about how many halves you have.
Caelic 08-11-04, 10:51 AM	I just find most of the half-templates distasteful for aesthetic reasons. A half-dragon, I can see--dragons can change shape. A half-troll, though? A half-giant, half-human? How the HECK did that work? The logistics boggle the mind.
Snow Savant 08-11-04, 11:02 AM	Keep in mind, at 15th level, your party Wizard will be PAO'ing the party tank into a superior race ... for absolutely free. And giving the tank racial abilities that exceed the Half-Troll template. Meanwhile, the tank can continue rising in levels of a class/PrC that grant class abilities that don't change when the PAO spells are converting racial abilities from one to another.
EatFlan 08-11-04, 11:05 AM	As a 1/2 troll do you get fast healing or Regeneration? Regeneration would cause a small problem b/c don't you think that your Arms of Nyr would pop off after a few days b/c you have new fresh stubby arms. Regardless they are sized for medium unless your paying more for the extra long monkey set. AND i doubt the arms are meant for people who chop off their own arms. Nyr is a name change off of Tyr i do believe, ancient Aesir God (vikings) who lost his arm due to his intense bravery in the mouth of Fenris. So at some point before reaching your optimum level you became a dual super gimp and somehow lived.
CompleteSatori 08-11-04, 12:10 PM	I would play this character from level one, personally. His natural Con before Rage is a 20, and after, a 26 (Reckless Rage), plus the 1 level of barbarian, I think he would rock at 6th level, you just have to be a somewhat careful person. And as you gain levels, it only becomes more egregious. I actually like this build vs a 20th level Class character, since he has so many benefits that cannot be taken away, Fast Healing 5, Rend/Claw/Bite, Reach etc, where I cannot depend on whatever Mage is in my party to be PAO'ing me, or anyone else for that matter. In my gaming experience across the country, there has only been one group where you could count on magical backup from the party mage (more than GMW at least), since most people play characters bent towards battlefield control or blasting etc. I ALWAYS build my characters to stand alone, because assuming you are going to get help from someone else is a ticket to death when the group mage may not be there for you. As for giving up class abilities, to be honest, I like my tanks incredibly hard to kill, and thats all I require. This is merely another route for Frenzied Berserks, who only ever fulfill a limited number of roles in a party, and most of them involve hit points and damage. EDIT: Snow, I believe that Fast Healing and Reach at 6th level would more than make up for his low hit points (as you said, 17)
Caelic 08-11-04, 01:20 PM	I dunno, Satori. Like I said: 17 hit points at level six. 19 with Rage (you don't have Reckless Rage to start.) Your armor class isn't going to be particularly great. Unless your DM is going out of his way to keep your character alive, I see almost no way he COULD survive. A sixth-level party will routinely face opponents capable of doing more than 17 points of damage in a shot. One average damage sixth level fireball will put you down for the count. Reach will only go so far towards keeping enemies from meleeing you, particularly since you didn't take Large and in Charge or Hold the Line. Being "somewhat cautious" is all well and good, but how are you going to fulfill your role as tank when one good shot from a typical enemy will drop you? Most groups I've been in wouldn't take too kindly to, "I'm just gonna hang out here in the back, guys...but don't worry, in another five levels or so, I'll be a kick-butt tank! Until then, protect me."
Kylian 08-11-04, 02:21 PM	Gotta love the sarcastic comments and general hilarity of these boards. :) I'll have to agree with Snow though; polymorph generally beats those heavier LA templates. Well, unless you're an epic leShay character or something, but even then just having those extra 20+ character levels are most likely better still.
Blade2718 08-11-04, 02:33 PM	Well, the Fast Healing helps to keep you alive if someone knocks you to 0, but once someone hits you again for 15, you're out.
Thannin 08-11-04, 02:36 PM	Originally posted by Kylian Gotta love the sarcastic comments and general hilarity of these boards. :) I'll have to agree with Snow though; polymorph generally beats those heavier LA templates. Well, unless you're an epic leShay character or something, but even then just having those extra 20+ character levels are most likely better still. Mmm, my personal favorite if you want a really nice tmelee'r is to cast a chained magic jar on storm giants or other weak willed creatures. It works, Ive checked it over and over, its so broken :). although seriously, is my 6 halves character 3 different people glued together or something?haha
CompleteSatori 08-11-04, 04:06 PM	We could call this guy the product of intentional genetic research by a master mage, Dominate Monster breeding pogroms that involved (in this case) a Half Ogre and a Troll. You assign the proper sexual categories as you see fit, I won't go into the sexual mechanics of it :) Surviving at low levels is tough, but I am less worried about that, since this is a build picked up at high levels (15th) where the character is less breakable, and more combat viable. In all seriousness, I would love the challenge of keeping him/her/it alive for levels, and his high AC (relative) is going to help alot. Just some simple Studded Leather, Vambraces, and a Buckler give him a 28 AC without any magical gear, which he can afford at first level, much less 6th. About the Fireballs and whatnot, ya they suck, but reflex saves half the damage, and the average damage of a 6th level fireball is 21, halved down to 10. Ya that hurts, but 2 rounds later hes fine again, and just has to get into melee with someone the casters care about not killing (at this point he is Claw/Claw/Biting people, since hes got no Power Attack). There are ways, and I think he would be very survivable if played correctly. (I did, after all, turn a 1st level human Fighter with the Paragon template and one of the big sharktooth sticks from SS loose on a 21st level party and got 3 of them down and the mage almost dead before he got wasted!)
Impeesa 08-11-04, 06:04 PM	You know what else is a good deal for +5 LA? A Firbolg who's lost all his racial HD to Raise Deads. ;) --Impeesa--
Caelic 08-11-04, 06:14 PM	Originally posted by CompleteSatori About the Fireballs and whatnot, ya they suck, but reflex saves half the damage, and the average damage of a 6th level fireball is 21, halved down to 10. Ya that hurts, but 2 rounds later hes fine again, and just has to get into melee with someone the casters care about not killing (at this point he is Claw/Claw/Biting people, since hes got no Power Attack). Yeah, but what are the odds of you actually MAKING that save? Your Fortitude save is good, but your Reflex and Will saves are atrocious...and the first response of most spellcasters when they see a big ugly brute is to trot out the Will or Reflex save spells. It's not absolutely impossible for such a character to survive, but I truly believe that it would take a sympathetic DM going out of his or her way not to target the character to give him a decent chance.
CompleteSatori 08-11-04, 06:23 PM	OR being smarter than your DM! :D I totally agree that it would be difficult, but even with a standard DM it would not be impossible, just... Difficult.
catharz 08-11-04, 06:46 PM	Originally posted by Impeesa You know what else is a good deal for +5 LA? A Firbolg who's lost all his racial HD to Raise Deads. ;) --Impeesa-- :cookie:
foxylady 08-12-04, 06:15 AM	One thing that always bothered me about high-LA templates is that spells that compare the level of the caster to the HD (not ECL) of the target in order to determine their effect really screw such characters. Blasphemy is the quintessential example.
ck2001wendt 08-12-04, 07:32 AM	This looks a lot like my Half-Troll, Half-Ogre Frenzied Berserker\Soul Eater (for the extra Regen and Str boost, and a nice energy drain attack)\Warrior of Darkness (working toward the full attack at the end of a move). I donīt know if itīs been culled by the Wiz_Oīs yet, but I assure you itīs out there.