Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mazarick 09-25-06, 09:00 PM	Help! Ridiculous I know... I've retyped this post three times now, thank you wizards.com...so I'll make it short. I imagine this character able to sneak into any location, mostly through skill but definitely not above the aid of magic items. When they are into their objective, they can either negotiate with excellent results or assassinate with rather final results :P, and then either entering into a melee with a few of the guards at a time or making a quick escape, at the whims of the character, with no traps interfering. The other members of the party are rather disgusting, and it's hard for me to optimize to the level that my friends have...where they are the enslaving, soul destroying wizards or the frenzied barbarian colossal siege engine of infinite destruction, I wish to be the finesse of the group...but it's hard for me to even be useful to the group with my optimization abilities, let alone match them. I figure neutral evil or chaotic evil...or perhaps chaotic neutral. We are using the UA rules for buying back LA, so I have four LA just to toss out... I've been keeping it simple though and figure human with the Shadow-walker template (UE). Two weapon fighting, highly mobile, knows where to stick it to really hurt. I figure Elusive Target, the two weapon fighting tree, and the intiatives are all important... Prestige classes I'd prefer in the build, Telflammar Shadowlord (UE), Assassin (DMG) and Invisible Blade (CW). Runs multiple thieves guilds all under different guises, as well as smuggling rings, perhaps slave/drug trade as well. We have an obscene amount of money to play with as well, but I prefer my characters core abilities to be excellent in case of an anti-magic field or something, if you understand my mindset. I'm not really looking for a complete build, just as many tips as you're willing to give me. It's ridiculous I know, but I think we might have fun with this campaign. I've been agonizing over the race alone for three days, so ANY help is greatly appreciated.
DarknessEternal 09-25-06, 09:21 PM	Why would a 60th level character need to sneak anywhere?
Mazarick 09-25-06, 10:14 PM	Hahaha Only because I want it too ;)
dominus_casuum 09-25-06, 11:26 PM	Uhhh...cleric with the Trickery domain. Wait, you want to actually play a rogue? Okay, um...assassin isn't so hot at epic, because nearly EVERYONE has immunity to death effects. Same with sneak attack (immunity to critical hits), so I'd take the feat rogue variant from Unearthed Arcana and not take assassin. Just my 2 cp though...I generally focus on magic/psionics builds and (lately) on the massive effort to balance melee with magic that is Tome of Battle.
dog45 09-25-06, 11:59 PM	Here's some ideas. Void Incarnate (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030418a)- Take this class for the Improved Mettle of Fortitude and Will, not for the silly Void Presence ability. Because even at simple epic levels if youre not immune to mind affecting then you are someones *****. Scout + Blade Dancer (OA, 3.0) - Okay, heres the link to the Lancer (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5436939)instead of explaining this combo. Teflammer would work well with the Lancer on some crazy level, but if you take Assassin, take it for their spells, not their death attack. You could do this...Scout 18/PsyWar2/Blade Dancer 10/Void Incarnate 10/Teflammer 10/Assassin 10. As any +4 ECL or lower race.
Mazarick 09-26-06, 12:36 AM	Dominus_casuum: Thanks for the heads up...I've admittedly never played an epic campaign as anything but a caster...the full scope of abilities of enemies still hasn't hit me yet. dog45: Thank you much for the Void Incarnate link! Taking a look at/considering the lancer and such, seems pretty interesting. Much appreciated! Oh, and according to the DM, we're mostly not going to be dealing with equivalent level NPCs, only in certain specific circumstances. Most of the campaign is going to be large numbers of creatures 1-40...small numbers of 45-50 and so on. It's really an odd campaign, I guess he wants us to be really powerful...I dunno.
dominus_casuum 09-26-06, 01:59 AM	Dominus_casuum: Thanks for the heads up...I've admittedly never played an epic campaign as anything but a caster...the full scope of abilities of enemies still hasn't hit me yet. dog45: Thank you much for the Void Incarnate link! Taking a look at/considering the lancer and such, seems pretty interesting. Much appreciated! Oh, and according to the DM, we're mostly not going to be dealing with equivalent level NPCs, only in certain specific circumstances. Most of the campaign is going to be large numbers of creatures 1-40...small numbers of 45-50 and so on. It's really an odd campaign, I guess he wants us to be really powerful...I dunno.If you want to be a total ass-kicker against groups, War Hulk is nice. You need large size (come on, you can afford the LA at that level), and if I were you, I'd take EWP: Spiked Chain, Weapon Finesse (if you have REALLY good Dex), and tons of levels. +2 strength per level is nice, especially at Epic where you don't get BAB from classes, the Dex synergy is nice if you have a godly mod (you'd better at level 60), and the 10th-level ability is to die for. Full attack against EVERY CREATURE WITHIN REACH. Doesn't fit well with the rogue concept, but still nice, if one of your friends is playing a meleer.
Mazarick 09-26-06, 02:29 AM	If you want to be a total ass-kicker against groups, War Hulk is nice. You need large size (come on, you can afford the LA at that level), and if I were you, I'd take EWP: Spiked Chain, Weapon Finesse (if you have REALLY good Dex), and tons of levels. +2 strength per level is nice, especially at Epic where you don't get BAB from classes, the Dex synergy is nice if you have a godly mod (you'd better at level 60), and the 10th-level ability is to die for. Full attack against EVERY CREATURE WITHIN REACH. Doesn't fit well with the rogue concept, but still nice, if one of your friends is playing a meleer. Oh wow...perhaps I should go pick up the MiniHB. Just checked that out on wizards.com, hilarious class. I'd take it for fun if not for the "No time to think" ability. I'm quite sure my melee friend will worship you for pointing it out though ;)
demonsinmyhead 09-26-06, 04:17 AM	CLEAVE...you need it w/ all that shank your gonna be gettin....o and try to take as many classes that give you death attack...theres more than assassin so you can get that dc pretty high if you pump intel....and changling wouldnt be too bad if you run mulitple guilds under different personas
Reis 09-26-06, 04:23 AM	Self concealment and the perfect wight PrC from the epic level handbook are always nice. by 60th level you can have nonmagical 100% concealment all the time and some crazy use of shadow form.
Mazarick 09-26-06, 12:04 PM	Self concealment and the perfect wight PrC from the epic level handbook are always nice. by 60th level you can have nonmagical 100% concealment all the time and some crazy use of shadow form. Haha, it's fun to think about being incorporeal from Perfect Wight, with Self Concealment x 5...and the immunity to force effects from Void Incarnate. Please folks, keep em coming, these are really helpful!
Pinky's brain 09-26-06, 12:06 PM	60 levels without having epic spellcasting is silly.
EpicParagon 09-26-06, 12:16 PM	Okay, if you are going to actually "make it" to this level- then congratulations! But if you are composing one out of thin air for S & G's, than you have a total misassumption of what DnD is. A PC of this stature would personify that of the Gods. So if you are going to "make him up" you might as well make him a God or an avatar of Olidamarra or Mask. Mind you, I mean no disrespect at all. Ah! And if you are in a campaign of such a high level, try playing a Monster race like a Leshay from the Epic Level Handbook. You will be UNSTOPPABLE!
Mazarick 09-26-06, 01:09 PM	Okay, if you are going to actually "make it" to this level- then congratulations! But if you are composing one out of thin air for S & G's, than you have a total misassumption of what DnD is. A PC of this stature would personify that of the Gods. So if you are going to "make him up" you might as well make him a God or an avatar of Olidamarra or Mask. Mind you, I mean no disrespect at all. Ah! And if you are in a campaign of such a high level, try playing a Monster race like a Leshay from the Epic Level Handbook. You will be UNSTOPPABLE! Yeah we're doing it for S&G's. We're of the opinion that we don't want our power to be at the will of our worshippers...too much responsibility to keeping them happy or scared :P We're still not even at the ECL the leader of the Garrote is...the D&D Multiverse is much bigger than just godhood =p
LordBOB777 09-26-06, 01:23 PM	go into Savage Species for some pretty nice Templates. You could play a Black Ethergaunt fromthe Fiend Folio, though at level 60 I dont know if it would be that much of a help. Make yourself a Paragon from the Epic Level Handbook. I remember running a half-dragon Ogre Mage Barbarian. It was pretty fun. Or maybe use the multi-headed Template from Savage Species, now THAT was fun!
Mazarick 09-26-06, 02:30 PM	go into Savage Species for some pretty nice Templates. You could play a Black Ethergaunt fromthe Fiend Folio, though at level 60 I dont know if it would be that much of a help. Make yourself a Paragon from the Epic Level Handbook. I remember running a half-dragon Ogre Mage Barbarian. It was pretty fun. Or maybe use the multi-headed Template from Savage Species, now THAT was fun! Gah, of course I left Savage Species at my friends house. Now you've gone and piqued my curiosity >.<
Lilt 09-26-06, 03:39 PM	Play one of the epic Slaadi. They have such ridiculous stats, such ridiculous abilities, and no LA. I made an ECL 25 white slaad monk with an AC of 81, I'm sure you could do more by level 60. They have lots of skill points and a very nice skill selection. Also consider the Phrenic template from the XPH. Many of the abilities scale well with HD, meaning you've got 6/day mind-thrusts for 60d10. The save DC will be respectably high too at 40+Cha mod. That's incedentally the same as the DC for your 1/day psionic dominate, but don't let the 1/day part confuse you. You can use it to simultaneously dominate 23 creatures of any dominateable type for 60 days each. Don't forget your 3/day Defensive Precognition psi-likes too. That's a +19 insight bonus to AC and Saves for 60 minutes, and Power Resistance 70 should be useful often too. A Phrenic Black Slaad would kick some ass. Trying to qualify for epic spellcasting is a good idea too though. Maybe use UrPriest or something to qualify for it quickly? Some martial adept abilities would certainly be nice too. I mean, a single level of some martial adept class after level 40 can give you access to a 9th level maneuver. Heck, a swordsage could get access to 2 of them from one level.
Pinky's brain 09-26-06, 03:52 PM	Play one of the epic Slaadi. They have such ridiculous stats, such ridiculous abilities, and no LA.Actually they are LA-1 and LA-2.
Lilt 09-26-06, 04:40 PM	Actually they are LA-1 and LA-2.They've been errated. It'd be funny to go a 12-headed black slaad if you want to go the multiheaded way. Black Slaadi have a very damaging chaos spit attack. They'd have an LA of +8, but you'd have 12 ranged touch attacks for 20d4 each, plus 10d4 for 11 rounds. That totals at 3.9k damage average from a volley. Don't forget your 48 tongue attacks for 10d4 chaos damage each either.
Pinky's brain 09-26-06, 04:54 PM	Oops.
LordBOB777 09-26-06, 07:27 PM	umm..... where is the Black Slaad
Mazarick 09-27-06, 11:21 PM	Hahahahaha! Oh man, thanks for that Lilt... Again, you guys are really helping me get the full depth of level 60, I greatly appreciate it!
dominus_casuum 09-28-06, 12:11 AM	Hahahahaha! Oh man, thanks for that Lilt... Again, you guys are really helping me get the full depth of level 60, I greatly appreciate it!Full depth of level 60? Hell, we ain't done nothing. Try seeing what you can do with a caster by 20th level - especially a druid20/masterofmanyforms10/rogue2/bard1/wizard1/fochlucanlyrist26. That can rogue pretty well, actually, and it gets all the brokenness of 50+ druid casting AND 27th wizard casting. Oh yeah, and the wild shape. Never forget the ability to wild shape into creatures with absolutely insane HD.
Mazarick 09-28-06, 12:23 AM	Hahaha, yeah...I've played around with a few caster builds. I helped my friend set up a drider character with (I think) clr3, brd1, fochlucan lyrist 10 (only 10 cause DM said past 10 it's 1/2 progression, unless someone can prove otherwise...if you can by all means =p), mystic theurge 10 incantatrix 10 or some such...I can't really recall. It's becoming more and more apparent to me though, that sneak attack and death attack are mostly useless. So far I've decided Human with the mineral warrior and shadow-walker templates suit me...also void incarnate 10, telflammar 5 and horizon walker 6 appeal to me, but I haven't figured up the lead in or the rest of the (many) levels. If theres some template out there that lets me dimension door or teleport (possibly without error?) at will...that'd save me six more levels =p
efraker 09-28-06, 12:41 AM	The poster who cautioned you against anything with a death effect or based upon critical hits is 100% right. If your DM is not a simpering moron, you will never have the opportunity to use either on anything you couldn't one-shot anyway. You really, seriously, ought to look into the Tome of Battle. It is to martial characters what the 95 Theses is to Christianity. Here's something off the top of my head. It only has 59 levels because Dry Lich is a +5 LA, not a +4. Unless you're human it will have an xp penalty for multiclassing, but I'd bet you're not playing with xp penalties to multiclassing, this being a 60 ECL campaign and all. Dry Lich is worth it because it has the undead immunities, you've got Mettle to cover you on the Fort saves, and it's got "Undead Toughness", allowing you to treat Charisma as if it were Constitution, for purposes of hitpoints. So basically you get 60+59d12+3+60+[Cha-mod*60] hitpoints. Which is 506.5, before your Cha mod. Let's say you've got a Cha of 30 (and since almost everything you do is Charisma based, it should be well above that). That's an extra 600 hitpoints, taking you over a thousand... and with all the undead immunities, and the phylactery. Caster levels: 24/Cleric, 9th level spells. 22/Sorcerer, 9th level spells. 12/Wilder, 3rd level powers. You're pretty much only denied your Cha & Dex bonuses to AC when you're grappled, so make sure to get some permanent freedom of movement. Since you can't benefit from armor or shields, your AC ought to be the same pretty much all the time. If your touch AC is below 50, you're doing something wrong. Come to think of it, the levels should be switched around so you take all 20 levels of Warblade very first thing. Regardless, you can iron out the details. p.s., make sure you get slippers of battledancing 1/Cloistered Cleric (Domains: Thirst, Sand, Knowledge) 2-3/Paladin of Tyranny (Divine Grace) 4-5/Monk (Ascetic Mage, Evasion, Improved Unarmed) 6-9/Sorcerer (Ascetic Mage) 10-13/Wilder (Cha-to-Touch-AC) 14-16/Hexblade (Mettle, Cha-to-Saves-vs-Spells) 16-35/Warblade (4 feats, Improved Uncanny, Int-to-Stuff, 2x stances) 36-45/Mystic Theurge (+10 sorcerer & cleric caster levels) 46-55/Walker in the Waste (dry lich, greater drought, +9 cleric caster levels) 56-59/Cerebremancer (+4 caster levels wilder/sorcerer) Feats: 1. Heat Endurance 3. Ascetic Mage 6. Improved Initiative 6. Draconic Heritage (substitution instead of familiar) 9. Blind-Fight 12. Toughness 15. Improved Toughness 17. Weapon Focus (whatever) (bonus warblade) 18. Martial Study (devoted spirit something) 21. Martial Stance (devoted spirit something) 21. Weapon Specialization (whatever) (bonus warblade) 24. Practised Caster (Sorcerer) 25. G. Weapon Focus (whatever) (bonus warblade) 27. Practised Caster (Cleric) 29. G. Weapon Specialization (whatever) (bonus warblade) 30. Practised Manifester (Wilder) 33. Melee Weapon Mastery (slashing?) 36. Weapon Supremacy (whatever) 39. Extended Spell 42. Persistent Spell 45. Danger Sense 48. Dire Charge 51. Draconic Aura (Power) 54. Draconic Aura (Senses) 57. Dual Draconic Aura 60. Divine Metamagic (Persistent)
gorfnad the shiznit 09-28-06, 02:17 AM	This goes to show how bored I really am The Shade Human NE, Shadow Creature Template (+2), Dark Creature Template (+1), Shadowwalker Template (+1) 1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2. Rogue - 3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting 4. Swashbuckler - Weapon Finesse (bonus feat) 5. Swashbuckler 6. Swashbuckler - Combat Reflexes (Int to damage...hehe) 7. Fighter - Weapon Focus: Dagger 8. Fighter - Far Shot 9. Fighter - Improved Two Weapon Fighting 10. Fighter - Weapon Specialization: Dagger 11. Invisibile Blade 12. Invisibile Blade - Craven 13. Invisibile Blade 14. Invisibile Blade 15. Invisibile Blade - Greater Two Weapon Fighting 16. Master Thrower - Quick Draw (bonus feat) 17. Master Thrower 18. Master Thrower - Rapid Shot 19. Master Thrower 20. Master Thrower 21. Assassin - Dodge 22. Assassin - 23. Assassin - 24. Assassin - Mobility 25. Assassin - 26. Assassin - 27. Assassin - Perfect Two Weapon Fighting 28. Shadow Dancer - 29. Shadow Dancer - 30. Shadow Dancer - Spring Attack 31. Shadow Dancer - 32. Shadow Dancer - 33. Shadow Dancer - Blindfight 34. Shadow Dancer - 35. Telfammar Shadowlord - 36. Telfammar Shadowlord - Iron Will 37. Telfammar Shadowlord - 38. Telfammar Shadowlord - 39. Telfammar Shadowlord - Spell Focus: Evil 40. Telfammar Shadowlord - 41. Ur - Priest - 42. Ur - Priest - Dextrous Will 43. Ur - Priest - 44. Ur - Priest - 45. Ur - Priest - Storm of Throws 46. Ur - Priest - 47. Ur - Priest - 48. Ur - Priest - Razing Strike 49. Ur - Priest - 50. Ur - Priest - 51. Void Incarnate - Dextrous Fortitude 52. Void Incarnate - 53. Void Incarnate - 54. Void Incarnate - Improved Sneak Attack 55. Void Incarnate - 56. Void Incarnate - 57. Void Incarnate - Improved Sneak Attack 58. Void Incarnate - 59. Void Incarnate - 60. Void Incarnate - Improved Sneak Attack Daggers everywhere, sneak attack up the wazu, 9th level cleric spells, 4 level assassin spells, 3rd level telfammar spells, SR verses divine spells, Steal Spell Like Ability (wish or miracle comes to mind) +4 LA (buyoff like you said), 10 levels Void Incarante, and so much more stuff that would take hours to list. If you don't want shadowdancer just substitute rogue instead and you'll get slippery mind and a little more sneak attack as well (also may free up more feats, however shadowdancer provides more fuel to pounce with). If you can take flaws then you can pick up Improved Initiative and Able Learner at 1st level or whatever else you want. Go nuts.
Lilt 09-28-06, 07:07 AM	7. Fighter - Weapon Focus: Dagger 8. Fighter - Far Shot 9. Fighter - Improved Two Weapon Fighting 10. Fighter - Weapon Specialization: Dagger :eek: Someone actually took the 3rd level of fighter? I know we have a lot of levels to play with, but c'mon... That's just throwing one away. :p If you're wanting weapons specialisation in something then consider 3 levels of pious templar instead. That gives you DR 1/- (no harm in having a bit of DR), Mettle (Very useful), smite someone you don't like 1/day, and weapon specialisation. Really, however, I would stand with the 'don't use sneak-attack' crowd. Immunity to crits and thus sneak-attacks can be bought with a 72k magic item. That may seem like a lot of money, but remember that you'll have somewhere around 100 million GP to spend on gear. Major disruptions to you being able to sneak-attack also come from anyone with Uncanny Dodge, also anyone with Improved Uncanny Dodge (unless all of your levels are sneak-attack granting classes) Essentially: Don't make a sneak-attacker unless you *know* that you can get around any defenses that your opponent can have.
LordBOB777 09-28-06, 03:32 PM	I always wanted to put a druidic monk to good use. maybe add in Master of Many forms so you can Wildshape into a Gargantuan Dragon without having to take Epic feats to do it. MoMF grants so many different things to wildshape into that you should be prepared for anything you might run into. how about druid 20/monk20/MoMF 10/Sacred Fist 10/(20 whatever you want...I was thinking barbarian for rage and other usefull features or fighter for the BAB and the extra feats) Make sure to pick up either wilding armor so your armor is useful when you wildshape, or just get a monks belt with your INSANELY high wisdom ( it better be). Dont forget about Wilding Clasps to use for certain items so that they also become usefull while in Wildshape.
Morrsleib 09-28-06, 03:57 PM	make this 20 binder wizard crap. 20 binder give you death attack sneak attack, flicker and other goodies substitute 10 of the binder level with anima mage and you are on your way to something great roguish something
Mazarick 09-29-06, 12:28 AM	Again, thanks folks. I'm currently takin a peak into the Tome of Battle. I swear, I'm gonna be done with this character just in time for my ship date to the good ol' Air Force. Campaign Day 1: Your character dies because theres no time to play.
dominus_casuum 09-29-06, 12:59 AM	Again, thanks folks. I'm currently takin a peak into the Tome of Battle. I swear, I'm gonna be done with this character just in time for my ship date to the good ol' Air Force. Campaign Day 1: Your character dies because theres no time to play.Tome of Battle kinda replaces rogues, just so you know. A monk2/swordsage20/crusader20/anyprestigeclassesinTomeofBattlethatyouq ualifyfor18 is almost as good at roguing as a rogue build with the right feats, and the combat potential trumps sneak attack and death attack six times sideways to chicago. Besides, crusader recovery mechanic is so good I kicked my mom in the face. And if you pick Shadow Sun Ninja as one of your prestige classes, you're now BETTER at roguing than a straight 60th level rogue.
Mazarick 09-29-06, 02:36 AM	Besides, crusader recovery mechanic is so good I kicked my mom in the face. Hahaha. Not your grandma? What gives? Yeah I'm sitting here sifting through all this stuff. Void incarnate, telflammar and that dragoon thing sound fun together...with possibly some paladin dips to get some save increases, the shade template from RoF maybe? And fiending over Tome of Battle, theres a lot to take in from it...wondering if I can make some brutal sneaky charge from shadows then with (quickened spell like ability dimension door or some such) get a full attack off then perhaps use a dorje of hustle to get another move action to teleport again (can quickened spells take up a move action if you've already cast one? o.O) and get another full attack off. I dunno, I'm working on it.