Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jeryg 02-19-04, 01:43 PM	here is the idea : Fighter 2 / Swashbuclker 3 / Sorc 1 / Dervish 1 / Exotic Weapon Master 1 / Arcane Duelist 10 the trick is to use a double slashing weapon (double scimitar is my choice here), so that you can elect it as your "chosen weapon" for the Arcane Duelist PrC. go for the TWF chain (Imp. TWG and GTWF) + flurry of strikes (exotic weapon master) + extra attack from flurry of swords (arcane duelist level 10). thats already 8 attacks. flurry of swords creates 1d4 + 3 images of yourself (lets say 7 because we are min/maxers :)), which all deal all the same attacks as yourself (subdual damage, yes, but still pretty nice). with you thats 8 times 8 attacks = 64 attacks. given, you don't have an impressive BAB at level 18 (+12), but you add your int bonus to damage, you have a +4 bonus to add to your weapon's own (can go over +5), you have another +1 to hit and to damages from dervish level 1, you have Karmic strike, and you have free weapon finesse from swashbuckler. add in a move action from your dervish dance and you've got a pretty good blade dance whirlwind frenzy of death. details : Fighter 1 EWP (double scimitar), Dodge, Combat Expertise Fighter 2 Weapon Focus (double scimitar) Swashb 1 mobility Swashb 2 Swashb 3 Sorc 1 TWF Dervish 1 Exotic Weapon Master 1 (flurry of strikes) Arcane Duelist 1 Karmic Strike Arcane Duelist 2 Arcane Duelist 3 Arcane Duelist 4 Improved TWF Arcane Duelist 5 Arcane Duelist 6 Arcane Duelist 7 Improved critical (double scimitar) Arcane Duelist 8 Arcane Duelist 9 Arcane Duelist 10 Greater TWF last 2 levels : up to you, but i suggest Knight of the Middle Circle 1 and something else 1 or you cant take a level of rogue and a level of Guild Thief to get 2D6 sneak... if you catch the opponent flat footed, you get potentially 128D6 sneak attack on him :D behold :behold: edit : oh yeah, it's "only" 10 times per day... edit 2 : replaced improved init feat by improved critical at level 15
adiaven 02-19-04, 02:07 PM	whats arcane duelist from?
Jeryg 02-19-04, 02:15 PM	its on the Wizards web site : http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a
quester 02-19-04, 02:25 PM	Nice try but a double weapon is not one of the allowed weapon for the arcane duelist. It says, "Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Proficiency (rapier, short sword, dagger, or any variation of these weapons as given in Sword and Fist)." A double weapon in not even remotely related to any of the weapons listed. Still and all a nice build.
Jeryg 02-19-04, 02:40 PM	thats only the requirements to enter the Prc... it doesnt say you cant use the powers of the class with something else...
Mith 02-19-04, 02:44 PM	I don't think it mentions an actual restriction to what weapon the arcane duelist can use anywhere. That's merely a pre-req. Edit: Darn, got beat out!
HoshiAdam 02-19-04, 02:56 PM	Why double scimitar? Unless double scimitar is already a finessable weapon, it doesn't help, since the slashing blades ability from Dervish only applies to regular scimitars.
quester 02-19-04, 03:01 PM	Its listed as a preq. becouse that what you can use in that class. That like saying that you have a preq. as long bow for for init. of the bow, but can use the its skills with a dagger. Think about it a little and try and live by or at least within the rules.
nihility 02-19-04, 03:07 PM	Originally posted by quester Its listed as a preq. becouse that what you can use in that class. That like saying that you have a preq. as long bow for for init. of the bow, but can use the its skills with a dagger. Think about it a little and try and live by or at least within the rules. He is completely within the rules. From the website: Chosen Weapon: Since much of the arcane duelist's apparent ability is tied to magic, the arcane duelist can imbue a specific melee weapon with powers to make herself appear more skilled. The arcane duelist must choose a specific melee weapon to be her chosen weapon. If that melee weapon is lost, she can choose another, but it takes seven days for a chosen weapon to bond to the arcane duelist so that she can use it with other powers of this class. Note that it says "specific melee weapon," not "rapier, short sword, or dagger." Thus, any melee weapon is usable within the rules. If your "quester-version Arcane Duelist" has additional restrictions, that's fine, but it is not relevant to this discussion. Jeyrg: nice idea, and nice work. Edit: note that the Order of the Bow Initiate has several abilities that specifically refer to the use of a bow. Also consider the Duelist PrC. Using a rapier is certainly "in flavor" for the Duelist, and several of the Duelist class abilities specifically refer to the use of light or one-handed piercing weapons. Other abilties, such as Canny Defense, only refer to "wielding a melee weapon," and thus may be used with any melee weapon.
Jeryg 02-19-04, 03:08 PM	i'm sorry but that IS within the rules... alot of builds on this forum are based on such strange combinations. just think about the divine trickster.
djinni 02-19-04, 03:18 PM	Originally posted by quester Its listed as a preq. becouse that what you can use in that class. That like saying that you have a preq. as long bow for for init. of the bow, but can use the its skills with a dagger. Think about it a little and try and live by or at least within the rules. An order of the bow initiate can use his abilities with a dagger, as long as he has taken weapon focus with it, and it is being thrown at the time (and so meets the prereq of a "ranged weapon"). just because someone trains with a specific weapon most of the time doesn't mean they can't apply what they've learned with that weapon to other weapons...
Jeryg 02-19-04, 03:21 PM	Originally posted by HoshiAdam Why double scimitar? Unless double scimitar is already a finessable weapon, it doesn't help, since the slashing blades ability from Dervish only applies to regular scimitars. it can be any double slashing weapon, but i favor the double scimitar over the double sword because of the high critical threat range... fell free to use a double axe if you want to :)
HoshiAdam 02-19-04, 03:40 PM	Using a double axe instead, you might consider dropping swashbuckler and taking more levels of Bard instead. It is less stat intensive, since then you only need Cha for Arcane Duelist AC and bard casting, Str for attack bonus, and Dex for TWF. Oh, and Bard 1 in your original build doesn't have 1st level spells, so it doesn't qualify for the Arcane Duelist. So you could do the build like this: Human: Dodge Bard 1: Mobility Fighter 1: EWP Orc Double Axe Bard 2: WF Orc Double Axe Fighter 2: Combat Expertise Bard 3: Bard 4: TWF Dervish 1 Exotic Weapon Master 1 Arcane Duelist 1 Improved TWF Arcane Duelist 2 Arcane Duelist 3 Arcane Duelist 4 Improved Initiative Arcane Duelist 5 Arcane Duelist 6 Arcane Duelist 7 Power Attack Arcane Duelist 8 Arcane Duelist 9 Arcane Duelist 10 Greater TWF Occult Slayer 1 Occult Slayer 2 Power attack is in there because it works well with Flurry of Strikes.
Jeryg 02-19-04, 03:46 PM	Originally posted by HoshiAdam Oh, and Bard 1 in your original build doesn't have 1st level spells, so it doesn't qualify for the Arcane Duelist. darn me, i forget the obvious sometimes... lets just replace the bard level by a sorcerer level then. i thought about going Bard 4 instead of Bard 1/ Swashbuckler 3, but i really wanted something optimal in terms of damage per hit. Bard 4 is indeed the way if you want to get a few more spells (you get invisibility which is really good if you decide to get 2 levels that get you sneak attack dices at levels 19 and 20).
Jeryg 02-19-04, 11:12 PM	actually, i recalculated and getting 2 levels of sneak attack class at lev 19 and 20 works better, provided that you go bard 4 instead of Sorc/swashbuckler 3 since you can "pounce" invisible on an opponent and sneack attack him to death... 128D6 sneak + your 64D6 + other bonuses should be enough...
Cornbread 02-20-04, 12:22 AM	Where are you getting exotic weapon master? I'm looking at the MotW version (the only one I know about) and not seeing any similarity. Could you pull off Hexblade4/Justicar of Taiia1/Dervish1/Exotic Weapon Master1/Arcane Duelist10? Without knowing the rules for EWP, I'm thinking it would require Hex4/JoT1/AD2/Drv1/EWP1/AD8. Could be wrong, though. Still, that leaves you three extra levels to play with, putting your uber-ability right around the time spellcasters are topping out their builds. Theoretically this build could max out at 4d6 sneak attack. The feats are a tough squeeze without levels of fighter. I'm not sure it can be done because you'd need to pick up Cosmopolitan for Knowledge(religion) to qualify for JoT in time. I think a more solid build all around would be Ftr4/Sorc1/[insert drv/ewp/ad progression]. Instead of trying to pick up sneak attack you can rely on magical properties. +d6 elemental bonuses to damage on your weapon will do you just as good, and if you stack it with your traditional 2d6 sneak attack you start entering the realm of insane. Great build idea, Jeryg!
Hanniball 02-20-04, 01:16 AM	Where are you getting exotic weapon master? I'm looking at the MotW version (the only one I know about) and not seeing any similarity. the complete warrior reprinted the Exotic weapon master. i agree with cornbread as to ditching the sneak attack progression in the build. it's cool if it works, but i'd rather have a flaming, frost, shock weapon that will always deal the extra D6s of damage (not counting resistances/immunities) either way...just my 0.02 cp
Jeryg 02-20-04, 10:55 AM	the problem with getting sneak attacks along the way (before actually reaching level 10 of AD), is that it eventually delays the time where you get flurry of swords... ... unless you forget about the dervish level (since its move+full attack is only 1/day) and go for : Fighter 1 EWP (double scimitar), Dodge, Combat Expertise Fighter 2 Weapon Focus (double scimitar) Rogue 1 mobility Rogue 2 Rogue 3 Sorc 1 TWF Rogue 4 Exotic Weapon Master 1 (flurry of strikes) Arcane Duelist 1 Karmic Strike AD up to level 10 that way you can get 4D6 sneak attack at level 20, but you can't get level 2 spells from Bard 4. basically you have to choose between Bard 4 / Dervish 1 Rogue 4 / Sorcerer 1 its up to you.