Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Evangeline 10-02-06, 09:58 PM	Hi everyone, I'm fairly new here, and to roleplaying! I am playing in my first game, and I chose to be an elven wizard. Her name is Evangeline, and her character sheet is at the bottom of this post. I started her out at 5th level to be equal to the other player character's levels, and I just got 6th level. I have a few days until we play again, but I don't know what I should do! I can probably change some things about her, not race or ability scores, but I could rearrange feats and skills if I need to, since I only played her two times. The dungeon master told me that would be okay, since I am new and all. I would like her to be very good at making magic items, especially potions and things like cloaks and boots and amulets. So that would be brew potion and craft wondrous item, right? Are there any feats or classes I can take to be better at this? I haven't picked a familiar for her yet, so I could do that too, or maybe sweet talk the dungeon master into letting me swap out the familiar for a bonus feat. I have already asked about artificer, and that is not allowed. Neither are anything to do with psionics. Other than that, everything is possible, though anything not 'core' (?) requires the dungeon master's approval. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- EVANGELINE Human Wizard 5 Experience Points: 18,973 True Neutral 26 hit points Abilities: Str 12, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 10 Initiative: +3 (+3 dex) Speed: 30 ft (6 squares) Armor Class: 17 (10 base, +3 dex, +4 bracers of armor) Base Attack/Melee Attack/Ranged Attack/Grapple: +2/+3/+4/+3 Saves: Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +4 Skills: Concentration +10, Craft (alchemy) +7, Craft (Bookbinding) +8, Craft (Gemcutting) +11, Craft (Tattooing) +12, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Knowledge (arch & eng) +5, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5, Knowledge (geography) +5, Knowledge (history) +5, Knowledge (local) +5, Knowledge (nature) +5, Knowledge (nobility) +5, Knowledge (planes) +5, Knowledge (religion) +6, Profession (Brewer) +6, Spellcraft +12 Feats: Brew Potion, Eschew Materials, Extraordinary Artisan, Legendary Artisan, Scribe Scroll Spells: (Cantrips) All PHB + PHB2 + Spell Compendium Cantrips (1st) Dead End; Deflect, Lesser; Detect Secret Doors; Enlarge Person; Expeditious Retreat, Swift; Feather Fall; Identify; Instant Search; Kelgore's Fire Bolt; Light of Lunia; Magic Missile; Magic Weapon; Raging Flame; Spirit Worm; Stand; Tenser's Floating Disc; Unseen Servant; Whelm; Wings of the Sea. (2nd) Battering Ram; Dark Way; Electric Vengeance; Energy Surge, Lesser; False Life; Flaming Sphere; Fly, Swift; Gust of Wind; Kelgore's Grave Mist; Phantom Foe; Share Talents; Unseen Crafter; Whelming Blast. (3rd) Displacement; Haste; Junglerazor; Lightning Bolt; Melf's Unicorn Arrow; Ray of the Python; Scintilating Sphere; Vampiric Touch. Magic Items: Bracers of Armor +4 (+4 armor bonus to armor class) [forearms], The Nine Pointed Star (+3 Luck bonus on all saving throws, may use dimension door as a standard action, up to a total of 760 feet per day) [neck]. Available Gold (in silver, gold, platinum, mithral, and adamantium coins, and some small gems): 34,808 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- So I would appreciate any advice you may have on new classes, feats, skills, and spells; as well as changing any of my feats, skills, or spells!
jstorrie 10-02-06, 10:11 PM	You're about reaching the point where you could specialize in different ways. Some common wizard archetypes include: Blasters (relying on spells that do damage - a fun but subpar way of going) Controllers (relying on illusions, summons, and battlefield control spells like Evard's Black Tentacles) Disablers (relying on 'save or die' spells like Tasha's Hideous Laughter, and disabling spells like Enervation or Ray of Weakness - generally considered the strongest 'battle wizard') Problem-solvers (relying on divinations, skills, and utility magic to overcome non-combat challenges) Gishes (mixing in martial combat ability for added versatility) Arcane tricksters (same, but with roguish abilities) Buffers (relying on spells that support the party, such as Haste, Polymorph Any Object, etc.) Which of those sorts of directions interest you? You could specialize in one, or hybridize in a few. That decision will determine which spells, skills, prestige classes and feats will best suit your character.
jstorrie 10-02-06, 10:14 PM	As an aside I will add that you may want to trade or loan that Nine-Pointed Star to a character who can take the Sun School feat from Complete Warrior, if any of your party members can get it. That feat allows a character to make a free melee attack after being teleported, which the character could use to surprise people, get past front lines, or take out high-priority targets.
Evangeline 10-02-06, 10:43 PM	I think the fact that I want to mainly make potions and wondrous items would mean the best route would be as a 'buffer'... since those are the spells that would be best suited to those things, right? If not, then the other option I would choose would be either a problem solver or a disabler.
horndgod 10-02-06, 11:41 PM	Are you playing a human or an elf?
jstorrie 10-03-06, 12:22 AM	A buffer/problem solver is a good mix, as that gives you things to do both in and out of combat. The appropriate 'core' prestige class for this would be Loremaster. You can get into Loremaster at level seven with the proper feat and skill choices, so let's redesign your feats and skills with that in mind. Craft Potion is a bit of a bomb. As an arcane caster, you can't make healing potions, and anything else you'd want to make a potion of you can handle with a scroll or wondrous item. I'd recommend you dump this, although you could certainly replace it with another crafting feat. One main thing to keep in mind is that crafting items takes a lot of time, and if your party doesn't now and then hunker down in a city for three months to wait while you make something, the feats will essentially be wasted. Craft Wondrous Item is a clear exception here, though, for the relatively cheap and quick to produce pearls of power which basically act like batteries, giving you more spells to cast. Human bonus feat: Skill Focus: Knowledge (pick one of local, history, arcana, religion, or the planes) Wizard bonus feat: Scribe Scroll 1: Extend Spell 3: Improved Initiative Wizard 5 bonus feat: Craft Wondrous Item 6: Improved Toughness Try to purchase scrolls to add to your spellbook in the future with spells that either increase the effectiveness of your party members in combat, or solve problems outside of combat (knock and shatter for locks, divination for mysteries and being lost, charms and illusions to get through social situations, etc.) By the time you take your first Loremaster level at level 8 you'll probably have a better handle of the rules. For your skills: As a human with starting Int 18, you should have 7 skill points per level to work with - this'll go up to 10 per level when you start taking Loremaster, as they have more skill points and you'll also have gotten another bonus stat point at level 8 to raise your Int to 20. I suggest you choose as your seven skills: Concentration Spellcraft Decipher Script Four different Knowledge skills There isn't much point to taking Craft or Profession skills, or in taking small amounts of any skill - if you aren't going to max something, you probably won't succeed on your skill checks with it, so don't bother wasting the points. If your party travels a lot, though, you may consider taking Ride (if you're generally land-based) or Swim (if you're generally sea-based) although you will have to cross-class that. When you start taking Loremaster levels you can use the extra skill points to pick up another Knowledge or cross-class in any miscellaneous skill that your DM seems to test often.
Evangeline 10-03-06, 05:01 PM	You say craft potion is a bit of a bomb... I am thinking of potions of resistance, mage armor, shield, ironguts, protection from XXX, corrosive grasp, deep breath, comprehend languages, detect XXX, empathy7, guided shot, true strike, sniper's shot, scholar's touch, charm person (give it to the person to be charmed), burning hands, shocking grasp, ... okay, am only less than halfway through first level spells that I was thinking of. I can hand them out to the rest of the party, and/or use them myself. We will have as much down time as I need, as I asked about that - for making potions and wondrous items both. So, I would definitely like to keep alchemy and brew potion; they are part of my character background. Thank you for the rest of your advice too; but I think there ae benefits to the craft and profession skills; I certainly have already saved a lot of gold and provided many tools and weapons with alchemy.
Doodle 10-03-06, 06:29 PM	You may want to consider the following.... Feats (sourcebook): Exceptional Artisan (ECS) - reduce magic item creation times by 25% Extraordinary Artisan (ECS) - reduce magic item creation materials cost by 25% Legendary Artisan (ECS) - reduce magic item creation XP costs by 25% Prestige Classes (not usually considered optimal as they all lose 1 caster level): Maester (CAdv) - better at crafting magic items - must be a gnome, but maybe your DM would excuse that. Effigy Master (CArc) - you can make constructs which can act as your familiar. Me.
Endarire 10-04-06, 02:25 AM	If a scroll and potion of a spell have about the same effect, I advocate the scroll because it's cheaper and you have the feat. -EE
Hanniball 10-04-06, 02:54 AM	...I am playing in my first game, and I chose to be an elven wizard... Human Wizard 5 Experience Points: 18,973 True Neutral Are you a human or an elf? It would be very helpful in assiting you. charm person (give it to the person to be charmed) Potions use the base DC for spells that allow saving throws. Thus, a potion of Charm Person will only ever have a DC of 12. That is far too low to be reliable. Wondrous item creation is far more encompassing than Brewing potions will ever be. I would suggest applying the Legendary/Extraordinary Artisan feats to Craft Wondrous Item as opposed to Brew Potion. This will delay their acquisition, but will pay off later on. Available Gold (in silver, gold, platinum, mithral, and adamantium coins, and some small gems): 34,808 :mymy: Please recognize that this is the wealth available to characters, typically, twice your level. Pump out those items before the DM realizes this! :devil: Either way...just my 2 cp
nittanytbone 10-04-06, 11:02 AM	I also agree that Craft Wondrous Item is far more useful than Brew Potion. I know you said you want to focus on crafting, but with your awesome 19 int you have really high DCs for spells. Throwing in a Spell Focus or two would really give you some tough DCs to beat, making you excellent at offensive magic. Add in that Headband of Intellect +2, and you're talking about DC of 10+Spell Level+5 (21 int)+2 (spell focus), which is REALLY darn tough for most folks to hit.
dvlsadvct 10-04-06, 11:52 AM	Mage of the Arcane Order (CA) is a boon to any Wizard. I would suggest you take a good look at that. The spellpools can come in very handy when needing to make a magic item. Oh yeah, craft potion is weak. You would be much better off with wands. If it is in your story though, I guess you are stuck with it.
Raphael_Maure 10-04-06, 01:17 PM	Note that "alchemy" in the 3.5 D&D game is not in any way synonimous with "potions". I'd point out that the Craft Wondrous Items feat enables you to create "Elixirs", which are thematically the same same as potions, but with different mechanics: they do things not normally covered by any standard spell. Look them up in the DM's Guide (under Wondrous Items). "Elixir of Love" equals the potion of Charm person you mentioned. If you brew elixirs (your DM may be kind enough to let you "make up" new ones following the example of E. of Hiding/Sneaking/Swimming) and you make use your Craft (Alchemy) skill, you fit your concept with no need to select a sub-optimal feat (that is, Brew Potion for a non-healer who can already Scribe Scrolls). I second that you'd rather limit your range of skills, especially trimming away some of the multiple Craft skills you currently have; then max your Craft (Alchemy) and use it whenever you can, especially to identify potions found in treasure troves.
rilem 10-04-06, 02:12 PM	Count another vote for Wonderous Item. Use scrolls and wands for low-level buffs. Raphael is spot-on with his recommendation of elixirs. Here's a brief list, just in core: Elixir of love Elixir of hiding Elixir of sneaking Elixir of swimming Elixir of vision Silversheen Sovereign Glue Salve of slipperiness Elixir of fire breath Dust of disappearance Marvelous Pigments Stone Salve Unguent of Timelessness Universal Solvent This gives you far more flexibility than Craft Potion and keeps you in flavor.
Grey_Mage 10-04-06, 02:27 PM	Are you a human or an elf? It would be very helpful in assiting you. *snip* Wondrous item creation is far more encompassing than Brewing potions will ever be. I would suggest applying the Legendary/Extraordinary Artisan feats to Craft Wondrous Item as opposed to Brew Potion. This will delay their acquisition, but will pay off later on. From the Feats Im going to say human. Second off the "Artisan" Feats dont apply to any single item creation feat... they apply to all of them. The only prereq is that you have one already... wich the wizard gets for free at level 1. Really all Id say is go ahead and take out brew potion and insert craft wondrous item, or simply take craft wondrous as your sixth level feat. If you do switch them out... consider taking craft magic arms and armor? Or Craft Wand? You might also consider taking Energy Substitution. Your Eschew Materials feat covers the metamagic prereq, and for a "problem solver" theres nothing like being able to avoid energy resistance- Personally for effectiveness Id pick acid, but it depends on what your characters comfortable with.
rilem 10-04-06, 02:36 PM	Acid works for flavor, too — all that mucking about with solvents and potions, she's gotten good at chemistry.
Evangeline 10-05-06, 12:59 AM	Sorry, I did make a mistake. She is Human, not Elven. As to scrolls, wands or wondrous items versus potions; scrolls and wands can only be used by me or other spellcasters. Wondrous items cost a lot more and take longer to make. I still think potions are worth it to help out the party in mid-combat. Could someone maybe do an analysis like I have seen done on a lot of other things in these boards to show cost per use for scrolls, wands, potions, and wondrous items? Also, time required o craft them? that way maybe I could see why potions are being looked down upon so badly. To me they seem an effective tool. I did come here for advice, and I do not intend to ignore that advice. I just want to understand the 'why' behind it. Thanks so much!
Raphael_Maure 10-05-06, 06:24 PM	I’ll explain. Note that the following analysis assumes you have the Scribe Scrolls feat (which all Wizards get as a 1st level bonus feat), so you can make magical scrolls already. Being “spells in a bottle”, potions are better compared with scrolls. Scroll: less expensive to craft (half the base price – meaning, half the gp and xp cost – of corresponding potion) Potion: anybody can use it anytime, not just you or other spellcasters. You see why Cure wounds potion > Cure wounds scroll, since “Cure” spells are often used as emergency life-savers. As a Wizard, however, you can’t brew any Cure potions. (…well… not exact… I know of at least one “trick” to make you able to… but it would cost you one more feat, and I don’t think it’s worth it… except maybe if your party utterly lacks a Cleric or similar healer…) Scrolls are instead a cheaper way to carry a reserve of all-purpose “backup” spells above your daily casting limit. I am thinking of potions of resistance, mage armor, shield, ironguts, protection from XXX, corrosive grasp, deep breath, comprehend languages, detect XXX, empathy7, guided shot, true strike, sniper's shot, scholar's touch, charm person (give it to the person to be charmed), burning hands, shocking grasp, ... You see, unlike Cure spells, those spells you listed are usually referred to as “buff” spells. Those are best cast just before an encounter, provided you have some advance warning of the encounter you are going towards: if you’re about to enter the lair of a black dragon, you’d better cast Protection from Elements (acid) on yourself and your companions before you meet the dragon face to face – otherwise, it might just be too late. Successful adventurers actively look for advance knowledge of incoming encounters (make some research about the dungeon before leaving town, always send an invisible rogue ahead of the bulk of the party to scout the way, stop to carefully listen for any noise beyond doors, all the while doing as little noise as possible yourself, etc.) – successful Wizards, even doubly so (because they need to memorize the right spells for the job). If you find yourself spending combat rounds to “buff” your comrades against a previously unknown threat, that means you’ve been taken by surprise and you’re in danger; ideally, such a situation shouldn’t occur often, if at all. Carrying “spare” spells in scroll form to take care of emergencies is good. Every party member carrying lots of potions in fear that their Wizard pal may not be there to cast a crucial spell when needed is usually over-preparing for a situation which will almost never happen. Or, if such a situation happens oftentimes, then you’re probably doing your job wrong. Either way, it’s not “optimized”. Typically, you’ll be there to cast yourself any “buff” spells your party may need, either from memory or scrolls. Wondrous Items are a different matter at all. They either have no spell analogue or produce a continuous effect where a spell would have a limited duration. Craft Wondrous Items is arguably the “best” Item Creation feat because Wondrous Items are so varied: they vary in price and power from as cheap as a potion to almost as mighty as artifacts, and they can produce just about any kind of effect. Therefore, the feat stays useful to casters of all experience levels. And in case your DM lets you invent your own "custom" items (following pricing guidelines in the DM's Guide), then the sky's the limit! :D Of course, crafting wondrous items takes time and resources, but that’s true of crafting in general. If you fear that your Wizard will never be let time to craft items because adventures continuously “come to her”, then you shouldn’t take any Craft Items feat (and you should reconsider playing a Wizard in the first place). If your adventuring party owns a base of operation from which they stage expedition to dungeons more-or-less at leisure, and you can plan things like “next week/next month we’re leaving for the Crypt of the Lich King”, then consider taking multiple Craft Items feats. But if your Wizard only takes one Craft feat in all of her life (besides Scribe Scroll), make it Craft Wondrous Item and you won’t be disappointed. Period. ;)
Evangeline 10-05-06, 10:20 PM	Thank you for the explanation. That does make a lot of sense. Scrolls are cheaper, and the potions I could make should be 'cast' before an encounter if possible. On the occasions that I can't, it is not (or should not be) often enough to be worth the cost of a feat and the extra (double) time, GP, and XP to cover. Now, I thought if I had an 'assistant' such as the party cleric or druid, I could make the potion and have them cast a spell into it for me...is that not true? I just want to be sure before I commit to a change that the change is indeed 100% worthwhile. Even with a full cleric, half cleric, and a half druid, the party is carrying 2 wands and several dozen potions of Cure XXX Wounds (mostly moderate) - and using them constantly - if I can make those potions for half cost, it may be beneficial to keep the feat. I am not certain now, though. Again, thanks! I can see the light now ;)
Evangeline 10-05-06, 10:30 PM	And, to get back to the advancement part of the question, I have looked at Loremaster, and I do like the concept; but that leaves me a few levels to get into. So between now (5th, about to take 6th) and then (7th, about to take 8th)... what should I go with? Should I stay as a 'basic' Wizard? Or is there some other prestige class that may synergize with Loremaster? Also, I like the look of some of the Archmage's abilities; but I am unsure if they would be worth the effort of qualifying for in addition to qualifying for Loremaster...? Thanks!
Raphael_Maure 10-06-06, 09:58 AM	Now, I thought if I had an 'assistant' such as the party cleric or druid, I could make the potion and have them cast a spell into it for me...is that not true? Yes, you can (checked). (Beware you're still investing a feat into something which is going to become almost useless at higher levels, due to the "spell level cap" potions have...)
Evangeline 10-07-06, 10:13 PM	And, to get back to the advancement part of the question, I have looked at Loremaster, and I do like the concept; but that leaves me a few levels to get into. So between now (5th, about to take 6th) and then (7th, about to take 8th)... what should I go with? Should I stay as a 'basic' Wizard? Or is there some other prestige class that may synergize with Loremaster? Also, I like the look of some of the Archmage's abilities; but I am unsure if they would be worth the effort of qualifying for in addition to qualifying for Loremaster...? Thanks! Just thought I would ask one last time; our game is on Monday and I need to get my character ready. Should I just take a level of mage now, and go into a prestige class at 7th? Or what would be a good option for me right now?
Endarire 10-07-06, 10:26 PM	Lest you're often grapped, stripped of your equipment, or are meeting a prereq, skip Eschew. It's no longer a metamagic. If possible, grab Iron Will and a metamagic feat like Extend, then go Incantatrix. Enchantment is a reasonable school to ban. -EE
HaikenEdge 10-07-06, 10:26 PM	I smell Mahou Sensei Negima. That said, I'd put ranks in Craft (leatherworking, metalworking or woodworking) so that, at level 8, you can qualify for Effigy Master and "create" Chachamaru. Of course, if I'm wrong, Geometer is a decent little class, although I'd never take it for more than the first 2 levels, you won't be losing anything significant.
Raphael_Maure 10-08-06, 07:39 AM	Basically, any PrC you like that gives full caster advancement and you can enter at 6th level is good for you. Most classes suggested in previous posts are from Complete Arcane. Going Archmage after that is good too. Wizard 5/Something else 10/Archmage 5 is a classic (note it's not mandatory to take all of your Something else levels before you begin Archmage). Loremaster is a nice class, the only two "drawbacks" of it being the Skill Focus prereq. (a Feat almost wasted) and the fact that 7th level is not the optimal "exit point" from Wizard (bonus Feats are good for you). However, if you can enter Loremaster with a great Int score, you may "get back" a Feat via their Secret class feature. If you're in for a gamble, you may find Human Paragon levels (from Unearthed Arcana, Race chapter) of your liking: you'd lose one caster level (something I usually loathe) but at 3rd level you'd get +2 Int (stacks with everything else), which is actually great, especially since your Int is high already! The bonus Feat at 2nd level is also nice. The Archmage Spell Power ability may offset the lost caster level, as may the Spell Penetration feat. Feats you may want to consider, now or in the future - besides Craft Wondrous Items: - Craft Magical Weapons/Armor: one of the "best" craft feats because it allows for "ad hoc" upgrades to existing items; your party will love you for it... they'll love you so much you should actually be careful not to run dry on XPs. - Craft Staffs: magical staffs rule. Wait 'till you hit the prereq. instead of spending a feat now on the far inferior Craft Wands. - Spell Focus: my favourite choice of school being Enchantment ("save or die" effects that kill nobody) - In case your (good aligned) wizard doesn't like to shed blood, open the Book of Exalted Deeds and have a good look at the Sacred Vote - Vow of Non-violence - Vow of Peace feat tree. As for equipment, since you're rich enough, you can't go wrong buying the biggest Headband of Intellect you can afford.
Endarire 10-09-06, 12:35 AM	I disagree with Craft Staff lest you're short on feats and long on EX. -EE