7 level conundrum [Archive] - Wizards Community

7 level conundrum [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zsasz_Diedne
06-20-05, 05:31 PM The Challenge

Build a PC with Divine Grace, Evasion, and the Ascetic Mage and Knight feats, wittin a 7 level framework.

Classes

Paladin, Monk and Sorcerer, prestiging into Enlightened Fist

Miscellaneous Goals(down the road)

As a high a caster level, BaB and HD as possible. As little cheese as possible (no Ur-Priest, AoP, MT etc.

All ideas and suggestions greatly appreciated.
Otto the Bugbear
06-20-05, 09:23 PM That is a conundrum.

classes: Sorcerer, Monk, Paladin

Ascetic Mage: 2nd level spontaneous spells = sorcerer 4
Divine Grace = 2nd level paladin
Evasion = 2nd level monk

That's 8 levels right there. Even going with the single class I know of with evasion at 1st level (Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries), should require the same amount of levels. The real killer is the 4 sorcerer levels.

I'm thinking that it's unlikely that, within the given criteria, you can't achieve that by level 7. The feats are easy enough within 6 levels, but the class 2 class abilities you want push it up to 8.

Anyway, a good build would end up

Monk 2 / Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Enlightened Fist 5 / Spellsword 5/ Arcane Duelist 2

netting you a BAB of +14, saves of +13/+12/+18, Cha to saves and AC twice, caster level 10th, plus much more. This is the one I'd rather play, thanks to the Charisma synergy. It has a lower BAB than the next one, but the saves are better and it just flows more smoothly.

The other one would be Monk 2 / Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Enlightened Fist 4 / Eldritch Knight 8

With a BAB of +16 and caster level of 14, it certainly has more arcane power, but loses Cha to AC, so it kinda depends on which you prefer.

Cheers

Otto :)
Gehenna
06-20-05, 09:48 PM umm...both builds would have cha to AC, that's one of the effects of Ascetic Mage. The first build would just add cha to AC twice :D
rilem
06-20-05, 10:04 PM (Cobra Strike) Monk 2 / Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Enlightened Fist 5 / Spellsword 5/ Arcane Duelist 2

Cobra Strike monk? But doesn't the enlightened fist power its abilities off of stunning fist attempts, which the cobra strike school doesn't give you?

I can't think of a way to do this in 7 levels either. I was hoping to use Witch Hunter (Kami's Grace at level1), but that requires casting Magic Circle (a third level spell).
Otto the Bugbear
06-20-05, 10:17 PM Cobra Strike monk? But doesn't the enlightened fist power its abilities off of stunning fist attempts, which the cobra strike school doesn't give you?

Yeah, you're right. I was just thinking of the Arcane Duelist feat requirements.

Cobra Strike is out then. I'll edit the post to reflect that fact.

Cheers

Otto :)
Zsasz_Diedne
06-21-05, 09:43 AM Thanks for the replies, as I thought it is not feasible with 7 levels (the four levels of sorc were indeed the wall I kept coming up against). I think Monk is going to take one for the team, and evasion will have to wait til 8th.

I'd go Eldritch Knight over Spellsword, SS has a better HD but the staggered casting is not appealing for this character, and he'll be fighting unarmed and unarmored so the class' defining features are of no use.

In the end I think I will go full EF, or 7 levels of it at the very least and maybe a level of Tattooed Monk for the Bellflower tat.
wotcwotcworc
06-21-05, 09:51 AM Illumian with Krau Rune. Get improved sigil (krau)

Sorcerer 1, Paladin 2, Monk 2.
Zsasz_Diedne
06-21-05, 11:46 AM Interestingly enough the char will in fact be an Illumian. Krau is out due to:

-He's taking the Vauluur Sigil combo

-I think you meant Sorc 3, Pal 2, Mnk 2, even so, I do not agree with this new take on Improved Sigil>Krau, but that's just me.
Otto the Bugbear
06-21-05, 06:29 PM Thanks for the replies, as I thought it is not feasible with 7 levels (the four levels of sorc were indeed the wall I kept coming up against). I think Monk is going to take one for the team, and evasion will have to wait til 8th.

I'd go Eldritch Knight over Spellsword, SS has a better HD but the staggered casting is not appealing for this character, and he'll be fighting unarmed and unarmored so the class' defining features are of no use.

In the end I think I will go full EF, or 7 levels of it at the very least and maybe a level of Tattooed Monk for the Bellflower tat.

I figured the EK would win out in the end, but I really like the channel spell ability, so I included that other build.

Bellflower is pretty awesome for this build. The problem lies in only having 1 level of it. Getting a big charisma boost for 1 round isn't quite as exciting in a real game as it can be in a theoretical build. Perhaps more levels of Tattooed Monk would work out, or a different tattoo could work better. There are a few that don't require a lot of levels to work good for a character.

These are the tattoos I can see taking on a single level of Tattooed Monk: (basically in order of usefulness IMO)
Pine: This, combined with the Enlightened Fist's ability to heal himself, could literally be a life-saver.
White Mask: possibly useful to most characters, but less so with a paladin type character.
Ocean: Not as useful because of the sorcerer levels; don't need to sleep, but need to rest.
Chrysanthemum: Less useful if you read it as class levels, but every little bit of healing helps out.
Pheonix: SR 16 isn't overwhelming and isn't likely to mean anything in the big encounters. However, SR16 is a number that a lot of minions, many magic items, and even traps won't be able to reliably overcome.

Sorcerer 4 / Paladin 2 / Monk 2 / Enlight Fist 5 / Tattooed Monk 1 / EK 6
or
Sorcerer 4 / Paladin 2 / Monk 2 / Enlight Fist 5 / Tattooed Monk 1 / Arcane Duelist 2 / EK 4

With these builds, decide if BAB is more important than saves. If you'd rather have more BAB, get fractional BAB and be prepared to offer fractional saves as well. If saves are more important (which I'd suggest they should be), then don't worry about losing 2 points of BAB. With fractional, the first one is at +16, without it's at +14. The second is +15 with and +13 without.

Cheers

Otto :)
Zsasz_Diedne
06-22-05, 09:43 AM Thanks Otto, good ideas, sadly concept has hit it's nemesis: execution. As we already have a gimped cleric taking a hit from being a Drow, this build would be a further drag on the group, so sorc is getting dropped. Just gonna whup A-- for the lord! :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zsasz_Diedne 06-20-05, 05:31 PM	The Challenge Build a PC with Divine Grace, Evasion, and the Ascetic Mage and Knight feats, wittin a 7 level framework. Classes Paladin, Monk and Sorcerer, prestiging into Enlightened Fist Miscellaneous Goals(down the road) As a high a caster level, BaB and HD as possible. As little cheese as possible (no Ur-Priest, AoP, MT etc. All ideas and suggestions greatly appreciated.
Otto the Bugbear 06-20-05, 09:23 PM	That is a conundrum. classes: Sorcerer, Monk, Paladin Ascetic Mage: 2nd level spontaneous spells = sorcerer 4 Divine Grace = 2nd level paladin Evasion = 2nd level monk That's 8 levels right there. Even going with the single class I know of with evasion at 1st level (Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries), should require the same amount of levels. The real killer is the 4 sorcerer levels. I'm thinking that it's unlikely that, within the given criteria, you can't achieve that by level 7. The feats are easy enough within 6 levels, but the class 2 class abilities you want push it up to 8. Anyway, a good build would end up Monk 2 / Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Enlightened Fist 5 / Spellsword 5/ Arcane Duelist 2 netting you a BAB of +14, saves of +13/+12/+18, Cha to saves and AC twice, caster level 10th, plus much more. This is the one I'd rather play, thanks to the Charisma synergy. It has a lower BAB than the next one, but the saves are better and it just flows more smoothly. The other one would be Monk 2 / Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Enlightened Fist 4 / Eldritch Knight 8 With a BAB of +16 and caster level of 14, it certainly has more arcane power, but loses Cha to AC, so it kinda depends on which you prefer. Cheers Otto :)
Gehenna 06-20-05, 09:48 PM	umm...both builds would have cha to AC, that's one of the effects of Ascetic Mage. The first build would just add cha to AC twice :D
rilem 06-20-05, 10:04 PM	(Cobra Strike) Monk 2 / Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 4 / Enlightened Fist 5 / Spellsword 5/ Arcane Duelist 2 Cobra Strike monk? But doesn't the enlightened fist power its abilities off of stunning fist attempts, which the cobra strike school doesn't give you? I can't think of a way to do this in 7 levels either. I was hoping to use Witch Hunter (Kami's Grace at level1), but that requires casting Magic Circle (a third level spell).
Otto the Bugbear 06-20-05, 10:17 PM	Cobra Strike monk? But doesn't the enlightened fist power its abilities off of stunning fist attempts, which the cobra strike school doesn't give you? Yeah, you're right. I was just thinking of the Arcane Duelist feat requirements. Cobra Strike is out then. I'll edit the post to reflect that fact. Cheers Otto :)
Zsasz_Diedne 06-21-05, 09:43 AM	Thanks for the replies, as I thought it is not feasible with 7 levels (the four levels of sorc were indeed the wall I kept coming up against). I think Monk is going to take one for the team, and evasion will have to wait til 8th. I'd go Eldritch Knight over Spellsword, SS has a better HD but the staggered casting is not appealing for this character, and he'll be fighting unarmed and unarmored so the class' defining features are of no use. In the end I think I will go full EF, or 7 levels of it at the very least and maybe a level of Tattooed Monk for the Bellflower tat.
wotcwotcworc 06-21-05, 09:51 AM	Illumian with Krau Rune. Get improved sigil (krau) Sorcerer 1, Paladin 2, Monk 2.
Zsasz_Diedne 06-21-05, 11:46 AM	Interestingly enough the char will in fact be an Illumian. Krau is out due to: -He's taking the Vauluur Sigil combo -I think you meant Sorc 3, Pal 2, Mnk 2, even so, I do not agree with this new take on Improved Sigil>Krau, but that's just me.
Otto the Bugbear 06-21-05, 06:29 PM	Thanks for the replies, as I thought it is not feasible with 7 levels (the four levels of sorc were indeed the wall I kept coming up against). I think Monk is going to take one for the team, and evasion will have to wait til 8th. I'd go Eldritch Knight over Spellsword, SS has a better HD but the staggered casting is not appealing for this character, and he'll be fighting unarmed and unarmored so the class' defining features are of no use. In the end I think I will go full EF, or 7 levels of it at the very least and maybe a level of Tattooed Monk for the Bellflower tat. I figured the EK would win out in the end, but I really like the channel spell ability, so I included that other build. Bellflower is pretty awesome for this build. The problem lies in only having 1 level of it. Getting a big charisma boost for 1 round isn't quite as exciting in a real game as it can be in a theoretical build. Perhaps more levels of Tattooed Monk would work out, or a different tattoo could work better. There are a few that don't require a lot of levels to work good for a character. These are the tattoos I can see taking on a single level of Tattooed Monk: (basically in order of usefulness IMO) Pine: This, combined with the Enlightened Fist's ability to heal himself, could literally be a life-saver. White Mask: possibly useful to most characters, but less so with a paladin type character. Ocean: Not as useful because of the sorcerer levels; don't need to sleep, but need to rest. Chrysanthemum: Less useful if you read it as class levels, but every little bit of healing helps out. Pheonix: SR 16 isn't overwhelming and isn't likely to mean anything in the big encounters. However, SR16 is a number that a lot of minions, many magic items, and even traps won't be able to reliably overcome. Sorcerer 4 / Paladin 2 / Monk 2 / Enlight Fist 5 / Tattooed Monk 1 / EK 6 or Sorcerer 4 / Paladin 2 / Monk 2 / Enlight Fist 5 / Tattooed Monk 1 / Arcane Duelist 2 / EK 4 With these builds, decide if BAB is more important than saves. If you'd rather have more BAB, get fractional BAB and be prepared to offer fractional saves as well. If saves are more important (which I'd suggest they should be), then don't worry about losing 2 points of BAB. With fractional, the first one is at +16, without it's at +14. The second is +15 with and +13 without. Cheers Otto :)
Zsasz_Diedne 06-22-05, 09:43 AM	Thanks Otto, good ideas, sadly concept has hit it's nemesis: execution. As we already have a gimped cleric taking a hit from being a Drow, this build would be a further drag on the group, so sorc is getting dropped. Just gonna whup A-- for the lord! :)