Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AngusDeVille 01-21-06, 07:05 AM	Ok guys - I think this is the right place for the kind of help I'm after. I am trying to convert a 2nd ed character to 3rd ed - 70th level to be precise. It was a paladin/cleric/wiz character. So ... after lots of reading, I have put together a version of the character that I was looking for some feedback on. Firstly, the level of the character is 70 (which I am planning on bringing down to 69 by casting some wishes to improve some stats). So with 69 levels to play with, and keeping in mind the idea of where the character came from I have come up with the following : Fighter 4 Cleric 1 Prestige Paladin 12 Cleric 3 Saint (+2 levels) Pr Paladin 3 Wizard 5 Mystic Theurge 10 Divine Emissary 6 Initiate of the sevenfold veil 7 Wizard 8 Fist of Raziel 5 Spare 3 Wishes 1 All in all, you get decent caster levels for both divine and arcane, as well as lots of smites - which if they ever go critical they auto confirm. Decent resistances, BAB etc ... Any feedback on the above? Are there any big flaws or no-no's? Maybe some ideas for improvement? This is version 1, I also am thinking of making a similar character only sorceror based - to synchronise with the paladin abilities ... depending on how feedback goes for this. Oh, and the final adjusted stats after wishes and adjustments for saint are: Base Racial WISH Saint Total Level Other Final STRENGTH 14 14 19 19 1 0 20 CONSTITUTION 16 14 19 21 21 7 0 28 DEXTERITY 14 16 21 21 5 0 26 WISDOM 13 13 18 20 20 4 0 24 INTELLIGENCE 18 18 23 23 0 23 CHARISMA 15 15 20 24 24 0 24 Any feedback welcome - was looking to get some ideas on how to make this character workable, as it hasn't been play tested at all. Thanks all.
CompleteSatori 01-21-06, 08:50 AM	Boooooring! 70th level is not optimization, you could take 70 levels of Commoner and even with cross class ranks in Use Magic Device you could be a god.
P33KAJ3W 01-21-06, 08:54 AM	Boooooring! 70th level is not optimization, you could take 70 levels of Commoner and even with cross class ranks in Use Magic Device you could be a god. That was the least helpful post I have seen on this board. I think you did a great job porting the PC, just make sure you have a firm grip of the Epic rules, they are in the SRD.
Khazra Reborn 01-21-06, 09:03 AM	70th level is not optimization, you could take 70 levels of Commoner and even with cross class ranks in Use Magic Device you could be a god. Or you could optimise 70 levels and destroy that character in a turn... I think you have a nice mix of classes there but i have to ask whether the saint templates worth it because every epic level is such a big deal?
BelRex 01-21-06, 10:27 AM	I can offer a suggestion on the level loss from using wish spells. Look for a rod of excellent magic. Then create a more powerful version of it. Or trade it with another NPC caster, 2000 exp per day free forever..for a loss of X amount of exp now..could be a good tradeoff. Or see if your DM will allow quest items to substitute for exp for the wish spell. Things like the heart of a great wyrm are worth 5000exp.
Caelic 01-21-06, 10:53 AM	Just one thought: why cast the Wishes yourself? A character of that level should have sufficient wealth that +5 Tomes are a drop in the bucket.
system breaker 01-21-06, 12:05 PM	Just one thought: why cast the Wishes yourself? A character of that level should have sufficient wealth that +5 Tomes are a drop in the bucket. Seconded! It only costs 825000gp for 6 +5 tomes. I have no idea what standard gold for a level 70 character is, but I assume it's at around 10^8gp.
Lysiander 01-21-06, 03:36 PM	Well, this is maybe a bit of a different approach, but well, I kinda dont believe in smite evil that much. *shrug* Fighter 20, Cleric 3, Sorcerer 4, Mystic Theurge 10, Marshall 1, Divine Oracle 2, Bard 1, Druid 1, Focluchan Lyrist 10, Frost Mage 4, 13 levels whatever you like. This will give you full BAB, a decent amount of feats and nice HPs before epic levels. The cleric 3 enables you to take the Initiate of Mystra feat so you can cast in wild and dead magic areas. The Divine Oracle, Druid and Bard levels allow you to enter the Fochlucan Lyrist, which speeds up you spell progression to cleric 25 (with both DO levels) and Sorcerer 28. The Marshal level takes care of spell resistance since it allows you to add your charisma to CL checks vs. SR. For anything else, Casterlevel doesnt need to be much higher beyond 24 or 25. With some items you can pump it a bit. The Frost Mage allows you to cast spells with the Piercing Cold feat that ignore Magic Immunities. So you do damage on anyone. Combined with Automatic Quicken Spell (superior to everything else with two casting classes) and Multispell this is a decent damage basis. Finally, since you have Turn Undead and a Charisma in the High Heavens thanks to epic spells, you can make use of Divine Might and Epic Divine Might to pump your meele damage. Add snowflake wardance and you Hit whatever you want since you add your charisma to attacks as well. You can do this 11 times a day with your level 1 bard and 10 FC levels. Im sure this can be optimized even further. You could easiliy substitute Paladin for Fighter, or you could abuse the sword of the arcane order feat from Champions of Valor by Starting out as a cleric, then going Prestige Paladin, tata, your cleric spell progression becomes a paladin progression, which you can use to memorize wizard spells. From there on, bring the PrC paladin to epic levels as far as it goes and reap in the bonus epic feats for whatever other powers you like. Almost full BAB (19 with F4, C1, PrCPal 15), every cleric and wizard spell in the book and all the epic feats you'll ever need along with many many smites. yay.
Khazra Reborn 01-21-06, 03:43 PM	Initiate of Mystra feat so you can cast in wild and dead magic areas Take this feat and rule the world...
Lysiander 01-21-06, 03:56 PM	Take this feat and rule the world... I think that was the basic idea of this feat, yes. :p Even worse, the flavor text and the lack of information about what happens if you "fall from grace" suggest that its not an ability granted by mystra, but a technique to avoid the lack/ warp of magic. (however, that is supposed to work, but I hear there is stuff happening in vaccums too, so nevermind that) Knowing this, go shadow adept and have fun killing whatever you like and mystra, or any other god for that matter, cant to sh*t about it unless they interfere directly. :D
Lysiander 01-21-06, 04:03 PM	Just occured to me, another, probably worse idea. Go War Wizard 20. That gives you spontanous spellcasting and access to the full spell list of the war wizard. Then, go Eldritch Master (if your allowed Dragon PrCs). Over the course of 10 levels it allows you to add 2 spellists to your available class spell lists, which, you happen to have compeletly available for spontaneous casting. Then, just add 10 levels of rainbow servant and practised spellcaster to offset the casterlevel loss. Now you have spontaenous casting from one class, full casterlevel progression and the Druid and Sorcerer/ Wizard lists from Eldritch Master, The Cleric List from Rainbow servant and the War Wizard list to chose from along with a decent BAB, no ASF and lots of room for epic progressions. Put Paladin 20 in front of that and you have basically your old character with a lot more power. And full BAB... .
AngusDeVille 01-23-06, 05:46 AM	Thanks for the feedback guys. Yes, I do understand strictly speaking this is not optimisation, however I thought this thread would be the most ideal in fleshing out a decent character, especially when considering he is being converted. The fact that he's being converted, not created from scratch also answers some of the questions posted in the threads. I cannot buy MI's or say I've bought them, because I already have MI's as well as money. So even though I recognise tomes and other items would be easily accessable to this character, at the point of conversion they aren't so I am trying to best utilise the classes raw - i.e. no magic items. I don't have access to all the books, but I will do research and see if I can find the classes put up in the thread above, and have a look to see if they fit the character mould. Irregardless of this, thanks for all the feedback, and if anyone has any other suggestions, always willing to listen to good ideas.
Anor 01-23-06, 07:02 AM	Cust out of curiosity, what do you do with a 70th level character? I mean, who and what can be a threat? And how long time does one encounter take at this level, real/in-game time?
Seeker of Undeath 01-23-06, 09:55 AM	Cust out of curiosity, what do you do with a 70th level character?Not much or anything you feel like. I mean, who and what can be a threat?Gods mostly.And how long time does one encounter take at this level, real/in-game time?Either one second or one hour. It all depends on the tactics and your initiative roll most of the time.
AviLazar 01-23-06, 10:09 AM	Base Racial WISH Saint Total Level Other Final STRENGTH 14 14 19 19 1 0 20 CONSTITUTION 16 14 19 21 21 7 0 28 DEXTERITY 14 16 21 21 5 0 26 WISDOM 13 13 18 20 20 4 0 24 INTELLIGENCE 18 18 23 23 0 23 CHARISMA 15 15 20 24 24 0 24 I think your stats are kind of weak for 70th level. See about getting items that will give you +6 to all stats (I am sure you can get 1 item that will do all 6 stats)...then, to top it off, get other items that do the same but are different types (i.e. not enhancement). And read the tomes to get more to your stats, and get some wishes to give yourself additional stat points. All your stats should be in the 30's at this level.
Lysiander 01-23-06, 11:25 AM	I think your stats are kind of weak for 70th level. See about getting items that will give you +6 to all stats (I am sure you can get 1 item that will do all 6 stats)...then, to top it off, get other items that do the same but are different types (i.e. not enhancement). And read the tomes to get more to your stats, and get some wishes to give yourself additional stat points. All your stats should be in the 30's at this level. While I agree that the stats are weak for 70th level, I'd have to point out that there are no other boni types for stats. Enhancement is all you can get, with a few rare exceptions. There are no rules for creating other type boni for Atrributes as well. Basically, the only way to increase stats beyond the scope of "normal" items are either epic items, which apparently arent available since money and items are already in existance, or epic spells. Beyond +10 or so, epic spells are the only real option when considering the money/ effect ratio. The only non enhancement boni I know of are: -Elation, BoED, +2 Morale to Str & Dex -Valiant Fury, CW, +4 Morale to Str & Con, Domain only Spell -Command Armor Enhancement, +4 Cha Competence, +2 I believe -Girrallon's Blessing/ Fuse Arms exploit +x to Str unnamed depending on Size, Cheezy. Quite honestly, keeping Attributes comparably low is an excelent way to balance epic games. Money is the prime factor why epic games beyond 30th level are rather unbalanced, because if it is handed out as recommended in the ELH the range of magic items becomes so large that there are few abilities left to actually cause damage (because of the numerous resistances & Immunities). Additionally the gaps between AC & Attack become bigger and bigger to the point where for one character to pose a challenge, everyone else cant possibly hit anything. Since Attributes directly affect AC, Attack and damage output in all its forms (Meele, Magic, etc), keeping them low is the only way to balance things properly beyond limiting money. Cust out of curiosity, what do you do with a 70th level character? I mean, who and what can be a threat? And how long time does one encounter take at this level, real/in-game time?Depending on the DM, most campaigns at that level either have equally powerfull gameworlds, or if that is not the case, the game consists primarily of roleplaying. Big politics, commanding armies etc. There isnt much that poses a challenge for a character of that level game mechanics wise. DMs really have to think outside the box here. However, there *are* ways to chalenge even these characters, and gods, as it was suggested, are the least of it. Never underestimate the power of multiple encounters, great numbers and the lack of player control in a given situation. Everything is breakable as long as the timeline is long enough. Though, admitedly, it's far from easy to come up with chalenges on a regular basis.
Sisyfos 01-23-06, 04:09 PM	One of the basics of epic optimization is to take classes or PrCs that grant Epic feats. If you just stack on pre-epic PrCs you'll get your normal bonus feats, which just do not compare to stuff like automatic quicken spell, permanent emanation, epic spellcasting, improved spell capacity etc.