Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Retcon 01-08-07, 02:28 AM	So, this is what I have to work with: *8 levels *No campaign busters (DM would kill an "obviously" obusive build) *A build using PHB, the Complete books, and a few other major Wizards books (Daconomicon, Spell Compendium, and such) *Surviveable in a very tough campaign with lots of arcane and divine magic use, and with alot of water (campaign involves hopping from island to island and dealing with what's underneath). *Evil ok, neutral ok, good with a good reason (an evil and a good character already in group, and the evil character is thiefy/sorcery and played by a smart ass who would cause problems for a "goody-goody" who couldn't put him in his place.) I like playing clerics as long as they aren't heal-monkeys, fighter-types with a bit of flair, thief is already covered, and arcane only if its got some stank on it. Basically, this character will have to pass muster on the DM's "its not silly,cheap, or stupid" DM test. Avoiding lots of cross-classing, one-shot wonder stuff, and blantant rule exploits would be good. The DM isn't super stickler, he's just conservative and likes simple and clean looking characters -- he will not read the sheet in depth or anything, hes just a bit old-school. He will be fine with a character he sees a "tough", "useful", etc. Any help would be excellent and appreciated, thanks.
PhoenixInferno 01-08-07, 02:29 AM	Druid.
Adolph_Kheebler 01-08-07, 02:59 AM	Are you using psionics? If so I'd go with a Telepath/Thrallherd unless you know you're fighting alot of undead or constructs. Even then if you build your thralls correctly you can still be awesome.
Shado 01-08-07, 03:55 AM	Is Tome of Battle available? You could play a straight up Crusader 8 which easily qualifies as a "fighter with flair" and with the proper maneuver choices, you can still heal and buff the party. A simple build with the feat Stone Power and the Crusader's Steely Resolve ability (15 at 8th level) allows for some serious damage mitigation. Coupled with the Martial Spirit Stance and Crusader's/Revitalizing Strike... you'd be a mountain of a meat shield. (And if you're not getting hit, you're healing the party through combat! No spending turns healing.) If you'd like a like a little more depth, but a similar theme, ask about the adaptation section of the Ruby Knight Vindicator PrC. Basically allows for entry into the PrC with any deity choice for a Cleric. Crusader 1/Cleric 4/RKV 3 is pretty strong. If casting power isn't a priority, try Crusader 1/ Cleric 4 / Crusader +1 /RKV 2 Helps a bit with maneuver/stance choices. Even if RKV adaptation isn't OK'd, Crusader/Cleric builds are really fun to play and are very synergistic. (And hell, Wee Jas isn't awful.) Stone Power is less useful without decent Crusader levels, but Vital Recovery can be useful. If you do mix Crusader and Cleric, pick up Practiced Spellcaster. If you want more battlefield control, Crusader's access to Devoted Spirit allows access to the Thicket of Blades stance. Combined with a Spiked Chain, Combat Reflexes and maybe even a race with reach (or easy access to Enlarge) can be nasty. Grab Improved Trip to get the extra attack post Trip. Additionally, the White Raven school has some terrific maneuvers for team tactics.
DeimoZz 01-08-07, 05:11 AM	I have to agree with PhoenixInferno, Druid is quite good in campaigns that deal with sea travelling a lot. The Ability to get an aquatic companion or to wild shape in one yourself is quite good. Besides if you manage to cast 9th lvl spells at some time during the campaign you can cast Tsunami! Surf's up dude!!
Eldharis 01-08-07, 08:48 AM	Its prob already been said but just skipped down to type this but druid FTW!
PhaedrusXY 01-08-07, 11:22 AM	Just to repeat what everyone else has already said... druid. They are probably the strongest core class in any game, and they are even more so in sea-based campaigns.
Edea 01-08-07, 11:26 AM	And since you're starting off at 8th, you'll already have the Natural Spell feat and enough uses/duration of your wild shape ability to stay in animal form for 16 hours (i.e. "all day"). Definitely do the druid.
jameswilliamogle 01-08-07, 11:44 AM	I just tried to help out another core druid player. If you have draconomicon, I think you can take Draconic Wildshape, too. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11119633&postcount=3
Retcon 01-08-07, 04:17 PM	First off, thanks a bunch for your replys -- much appreciated! So, druid huh? I have had limited experience with druids (Druid/Animal Lord in 3.0 -- a cat lord to be specific, and not fun to play) so I didn't think of that class right off but I'm open to it. Good point on the druid/water synergy, and yeah I should have access to the Draconomicon feat -- any other ideas on ways to Op a island hopping Druid in a brutal campaign? For example: *Race *Templates? (Feral, etc) *Feats? *Spells of note? *Weapons/Armor/Items? Thanks again! :D
VoxPVoxD 01-08-07, 04:21 PM	There's a druid spell called Cloak of the Sea that gives you blur and freedom of movement while underwater. All in all I recommend the Druid Handbook (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=733400). Lots and lots of helpful info (including aquatic-specific stuff!)
carnivore 01-08-07, 04:23 PM	race....Aventi from Stormrack....basically Humans that can breath water :D
Pangeon 01-08-07, 09:48 PM	If you don't want to go Druid, I'd reccomend a Warlock with the Swimming the Styx invocation (complete mage.) Swim speed and water breathing FTW. Or, a dex-based air goblin fighter type (maybe swordsage?) Look Ma, no breathing!
Midnight_v 01-08-07, 09:57 PM	No just druid. no templates or anything human druid is fine. Further, read that druid's handbook twice. Druid is good because you basically get to have two chracters you and your animal companion. Don't even bother with prestige classes druid 20 is great. But don't be neutral be neutral evil so you don't have to cry when your animal companion dies (or you kill it to get a better one) (^_*) you could take abberation wildshape if you get bored with the ususal animals but you prolly never will, one of them lets you brethe underwater but you can wildshape into a giant octopus so why bother. . . I see your DM is kinda strict so max out you''re knowledge nature to keep a list of "animals seen" you can shape into. Futher, a great spell is Murderous mist which in the Spell compendium and blinds enimies if they fail a reflex save, odd, huh? Other great spell... "Venomfire" Feats... natural spell. Swordsage 2 good but for your ac but I suggest waiting on that till you're really comfy being a Druid.
Daxen 01-08-07, 10:12 PM	I will cast my votre for Neutral Evil Druid as well. Human for the extra feat. There are a lot of ways to go with it. The summoner route. The Wild Shaped killer route. The caster of elemental mayhem route. Have fun with it. Have him intent on the Sea "reclaiming" all these islands or something. People suck, sharks are better.
Aramek 01-08-07, 10:21 PM	Gnomes make the best druids. 1) Spell Focus: Conjuration 3) Augment Summoning 6) Natural Spell 9) Nothing else 12) matters because 15) you kick 18) TOO MUCH ASS!!!11 I don't remember who said this, but I'm in love with it.
StagEverwilde 01-08-07, 10:34 PM	i'll put my vote my vote in for the NE human druid i've seen the builds for these C.o.D.zillas
VoxPVoxD 01-08-07, 11:02 PM	Murderous mist which in the Spell compendium and blinds enimies if they fail a reflex save It's no Blinding Spittle, that's for sure.
SunTzuWarmaster 01-08-07, 11:15 PM	Player of mine is having fun with a Raptorian Druid (Races of the wild). Essentially it is a human with wings. Nothing beats it for utility, having the ability to fly naturally, and wildshape into something that can dig and swim is highly valued. Somewhere between produce flame, animal growth, diving attacks, call lightning, and summonings, the druid and his animal companion can do quite well.
mercury529 01-09-07, 01:28 AM	May I ask why people are so resoundingly behind NE as opposed to true neutral? There is no need to kill a companion you no longer want as you can just release it correct? Also, I see no penalty in the PHB for a death of a companion. Is the decision a flavor one? If so, in the spirit of optimization isn't true neutral a better decision? Being true neutral does not restrict any spell you can cast, whereas as NE forbids you from casting spells with the [Good] descriptor.
Midnight_v 01-09-07, 08:49 AM	It's no Blinding Spittle, that's for sure. No... but it is notable. Hits multiple opponents grants concealment, it an additional battle field control spell. Everything cant be as good as blinding spittle. What about venomfire then? Oh and about the NE part.... thats to free you from being the stereotypical greenpeace druid. You could be a druid of an alternate ecology a aberrant druid from an alternate prime or an frostfell druid wanting to bring about perpetual winter, but if you're a druid with non-traditional views i.e. on out of sync with the current ecology it would generally be considered NE. From an optimizational standpoint what "good" spells are we missing out on exactly? Druid spell tend overall dont' have alignment descriptors. The point is by being bad-guy-druid you dont' ever have to deal with typical druid moral qualms and play the character as you wish. Doesn't mean he has to go around sacrificing baby seals and whatnot. . .but nor do you have to side with the elves and fey either. Evil gives you options. . . The only reason in this case to not be evil is to avoid being smited in which case Chaotic neutral is superior, which is a alignment that allows you to justify almost any course of action. Dealing with "difficult" Dm's 101
mercury529 01-09-07, 09:58 AM	I do not see how being true neutral forces you into any course of action. More than any other alignment, I see neutral as the self-preservationist. A neutral character can act in its own self-interest without regard for any code of conduct. Playing an evil character makes you more likely to alienate allies who can aid you in your temporary goals. Playing a chaotic character makes you seem undependable and untrustworthy to allies. A neutral character is not forced by alignment to act a certain way. He is only required to fluctuate relatively evenly between both sides. You can easily cherry pick your opportunities for being good (specifically ones that are more beneficial than being evil), in order to "buy" yourself the ability to commit the evil acts. And, if you have no problem with NE, you can always make the alignment shift when it is particularly to your advantage at some point in the future. To me, the "greenpeace druid" has always seemed to be lawful neutral (perhaps I am wrong). They seem very tied into a code of conduct they follow that is independent of good and evil but strongly regulated by their own personal convictions. A neutral druid seems to me to be free to do what you suggested as long as there is some way to justify its good for himself and that which he seeks to protect. Perhaps you are right on Evil possibly giving you more flexibility (I still feel personally that neutral offers more on that front), but even so, you can always shift alignment if you need that flexibility with a great character-defining moment. And along the way you can appreciate the advantages: no detect/prot/smite evil and the ability to cast good aligned spells (even if there are few). And perhaps I am mistaken, but I did not think you could summon opposite-aligned creatures, which also closes some doors (summoning a Unicorn for instance for their healing capabilities).
jameswilliamogle 01-09-07, 10:29 AM	The alignment argument really doesn't belong here... Since there's an evil person in the group already, being evil will align him towards that player. Neutral might balance out the party. Its totally a RP choice. From a mechanical standpoint, if the DM thinks he's playing his character Lawful, or Chaotic, then starting at true neutral will give him a little more flexibility in RP w/o losing Druid benefits. Totally doesn't matter for optimization, though.
mercury529 01-09-07, 10:33 AM	The alignment argument really doesn't belong here... He wanted to know what alignment he should take. I was trying to make a case for neutral being the best alignment choice. Midnight_v was trying to prove that neutral evil was the best alignment choice. The hope is Retcon will look at both arguments and decide which he thinks is more powerful/interesting to him. Edit: I always felt alignment did have a sizeable effect on optimization (vulnerability to detect/prot/smite evil, inability to cast opposite aligned spells, qualification for PrC, etc).
PhaedrusXY 01-09-07, 11:50 AM	Being true neutral does not restrict any spell you can cast, whereas as NE forbids you from casting spells with the [Good] descriptor.That's only for clerics. Druids aren't clerics in this edition. Really any alignment is as good as another, as far as optimizing. True Neutral is slightly advantageous for the reasons already pointed out, but the difference is very minor.
mercury529 01-09-07, 12:02 PM	That's only for clerics. Druids aren't clerics in this edition. Really any alignment is as good as another, as far as optimizing. True Neutral is slightly advantageous for the reasons already pointed out, but the difference is very minor. I did not see anything in the official errata, is there something I am missing? According to PHB pg 35: "A druid can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's". While an alignment difference may be somewhat minor (I think it becomes less minor with a character like a cleric), I hope it adds a little bit to consider for Retcon. I think it's definitely worth considering if it invalidates some nice techniques like summoning a unicorn for additional healing at lower levels.
ShubNiggurath 01-09-07, 12:11 PM	Druid is probably better, especially in a sea based campaign, but I posted in this forum an 8th level cleric build you might like (title: melee cleric build, just a little below this thread) The only problem is that he has a full plate so if you end up in water you may have a problem. You could persist air walk though and solve the problem if you can afford to lose 3 AC
PhaedrusXY 01-09-07, 12:17 PM	I did not see anything in the official errata, is there something I am missing? According to PHB pg 35: "A druid can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's".My apologies. I was so sure that I didn't bother checking. I guess I don't know everything after all. My wife will be happy to hear it. ;)
Seerow 01-09-07, 12:27 PM	My apologies. I was so sure that I didn't bother checking. I guess I don't know everything after all. My wife will be happy to hear it. ;) She'll be very happy you haven't heard about our affair ye- -oshi
Exavian 01-09-07, 03:50 PM	Another race option, if you can use Races of Destiny (don't know if that fits in with other major Wizard books), is Seakin, I believe it still gives a bonus feat and you get all kinds of fun water stuff.
Retcon 01-10-07, 03:28 AM	Thanks for the stuff on allignment, it was helpful (I haven't decided quite yet, but it will be NE or N for sure). I am leaning towards a character concept of "Wildshaping druid who turns into nasty things and hurts you, your brother, your mother, and any other bugger!" character who is looking to returning the islands to the sea (possible because campaign is about gathering artifacts of power from the islands, which I could use to do just that). So an aquatic race would be ideal (or a human who has adopted the sea). Are there any races that have a monsterous class that stacks with druid levels? Also, any Op ideas on my companion (at 8th level) and two combat 'shapes (one for underwater, one for land, unless there is one that can fill both rolls)? Also, any Op ideas on methods of doing the damage (natural attacks, spells, weapons)? A general approach/plan (or two:D ) for the time after the DM says "roll initiative" would be great. If it helps, the two members of the party alive are a rogue/cleric (lvl6, neutral I believe, with some major mojo from absorbing the first artifact we recoverd [like it takes a vorpal weapon to kill him, etc , so call him a ECL of 8-10), and a gnome pain in the ass non-melee magic build (he's cagey, but I think he's trying for Jester or something similar, and he's lvl4 CE, [he's new to the campaign]). There is another player making a lvl 10 character but he hasn't said what it is yet (we both were killed in the same basic encounter). Also, any ideas on Op equipment affordable to a lvl 8 character? I really appreciate the help a lot, and please keep the ideas coming. edit Just a thought, but the ability to help the rogue get flanking when he is in combat, as he can do some good damage. Also, any buffs that would help him./edit
Retcon 01-10-07, 04:12 AM	Also, any ideas on these issues: *Op AC *Wildshape options (ability to 'shape into outsiders/abberations/etc possible?)
Retcon 01-10-07, 04:32 AM	In case it matters, the ability stat block I rolled (this group rolls stat blocks, and this time I rolled really well) is: 12,13,15,16,16,17 (+1 for lvl4 & +1 for lvl 8) I can assign these however, so any Op ideas for my druid's abilities? Whats dump and whats pump?
ShubNiggurath 01-10-07, 04:47 AM	Sources allowed? In any case I would go monk 1/druid 9 going to monk 1/druid 19 at 20th level. Look for my thread (monk+druid+grapple) in this forum, 1st page, for grapple tactics. Stats: STR 12 INT 16 DEX 13 CON 16 WIS 17+all level ups CHA 15 Remember to "animal growth" yourself and your companion before combat. Summon to give flanking (water elemental, Elasomsurus dinosaurs....) Your favourite WS form should be polar bear (swims, but does not breathe water) or giant octopus if you need to go deep. Your animal companion should be a polar bear (useful both on ground and in water) or an orca whale if you really want an aquatic one. Roleplay an "artic" druid.
Midnight_v 01-10-07, 08:48 AM	You're welcome about the alignment talk... I honestly didn't think it'd spark a debate with that guy, (nor did I realize it'd turned into one) but if you found it useful, great. I don't belive you can animal growth yourself anymore. I also think giant croc is considerable if you can get the "Polar" bear into a tropical setting, though I agree that is the better choice. Remember you're spell list trick it out as much as possible. Do you know what enemies you'll be facing most?
Retcon 01-10-07, 10:24 PM	I'll be facing the biggest, nastiest things the DM can find in books like Vile Darkness and others that have icky stuff in them -- he's just that way. I figure demons, devils, undead, constructs, abberations are pretty much a given. My rough character plan so far is: Alignment: NE (or NN if I need to for spell/feat/etc) Stats: 12,13,15,16,16,17 (+2 from lvl 4 & 8) Any ideas on order of assignment? Race: Human with Amphibious template (gets me a extra feat for -2 to Dex, a stat that doesn't matter anyways due to WS) --OR-- Aventi (Cool flavor, better abilities, but nothing I can't do better as a shark/croc/etc) Feats: Natural Spell, Abberant Blood, Abberant WS (maybe Abberant Reach too?), Dragon WS (lvl issues?), Assume Supernatural Ability, ??? (ideas?). Wild Shapes: *Water - Angullian (Storm, uses tools, speech to maybe), Giant Octopus. *Everwhere Else - Tortis/Turtle (if there are any), Rustmonster, Tako (What book is this from?), Cloaker, Mimic, (and any others good for exploration/combat duty). Items: Wyrmfang Amulet, ??? (ideas?) Spells: Murderous Mist (Spell Compendium), Venomfire (Spell Compendium ?), Blinding Spittle (Spell Compendium???), Cure Minor, Detect Magic, Camouflage, Endure Elements, Entangle, Faerie Fire, Vigor spells (CompD), Spider Hand (BoVD), Twilight Luck (BoED), Restoration spells (Spell), Mass Snakes Swiftness, Poison (PHB), Spirit Jaws (Spell Compendium), Arc of Lightning (CompAd), Enhance Wild Shape (Spell), Sheltered Vitality (Spell), Vortex of Teeth (Spell, use with Entangle), Call Lightning (Spell), As the Frost (PHBII), Thalassemia (Storm, !!!d6/lvl!!! goodness), (any others?) So, thoughts/suggestions/Op? I want to use WS for melee, exploration, etc (ideas welcome). I want to use spellcasting for out-of-combat healing, in-combat damage, and party buffs. Summons for utility/flanking/(your ideas here). Anyways, rough sketch. Feedback welcome.