Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Random Sasquatch 12-01-05, 02:00 AM	Hey CO crew, I've jumped ship and am now gaming with another crew as of 42 minutes ago The new DM is throwing me in at 9th level and our mission is to save the world of forgotten realms from an all-powerful necromancer that is stripping powers from the gods. We are the "chosen ones", and our abilities (87 point buy!!!!) are well above the high level campaign mark . I need a character that can exploit this and roam the world of forgotten realms without worry. Here are the rules: All WOTC books are allowed (including ebberon and unearthed arcana) Divine magic is currently gone (due to the fact that the gods have gone into hiding). Other characters are:a druid, a mage, a fighter, a rogue and a psionicist 87 point buy monstrous races are allowed templates are allowed *One unique ability is allowed (ex. rogue is able to shadow jump at will) we are working up to 30 levels but if your build is only 20 that's a good start. Where do I go with this? Help.
PhoenixInferno 12-01-05, 02:09 AM	What do you want to play? One unique ability allowed? What the heck does that mean? Could it be something like an Efreet's spell-like Wish?
JJeff 12-01-05, 02:13 AM	Just wanted to ask this: 87 point buy as in 15 (15 points) 15 (15 points) 15 (15 points) 14 (14 points) 14 (14 points) 14 (14 points) or 18 (16 points) 18 (16 points) 18 (16 points) 18 (16 points) 17 (13 points) 16 (14 points)
Random Sasquatch 12-01-05, 02:21 AM	I was thinking about playing a monk or some sort of paladin, but I'm open for suggestions. As for the unique ability: I, myself, am not really sure. I doubt that the spell-like ability wish would be allowed, but I still want to find a way to use this to my advantage. Maybe ask for something minor and then find a way to exploit it into some form of invincibility. 87 points, as in, 18 18 18 18 17 16 _______________________________
tsuyoshikentsu 12-01-05, 03:01 AM	WHY!?! WHY DO I NEVER GET DMS LIKE THIS?!?!?! Ahem. Sorry about that. You know what I'd do? Whatever I wanted. Seriously, I'd go with some of the quirkier builds. Supermount springs to mind, or my Halfling Sniper. (Stoutheart Halfling Fighter 5/Warsling Sniper 6/Cagtop Archer 4/Deepwood Sniper 2/Peerless Archer 3) As for special abilities... I dunno about the supermount, but let the sniper be able to see anything up to 2000 feet away without making a spot check. It doesn't sound too broken until you get fourty feet of vertical clearance. ;)
White_Phoenix 12-01-05, 03:54 AM	There is only one thing you can do: Make a half-orc wizard with a rabbit fetish! Maximize your Perform(dancing) and Profession(cobbler) skills. Also learn some really bad jokes about deities to impress your party's clerc. A rabbit grooming kit is also one of those must-have items. Serious though, any character can be optimized. There is no such thing as "The Best Character" because it all depends on the campaignsetting and your DM. Why not first decided what you think is FUN to play and then optimize that? Good luck with your build.
Lusden Veharo 12-01-05, 04:28 AM	Having a dump stat being a 14 (you have a point left over in the point buy, sure, but everything else is a 18) just screams "MAKE ME A GISH YOU FOOL!" at me. You have the dexterity to make light or no armor practical, the strength to dish it out hard and accurately, and the constitution to completely ignore any low hit dice you suffer from. Heck, even a two level Monk dip might pay off if you need to be even harder to kill; Evasion, +3 to all saves, and your wisdom to AC (minimum +4, easily hitting +7 with a little effort) may be worth it. This is sure to far from optimized, but might provide a good starting point: Paladin 4/Battle Sorceror 4/Spellsword 1/[something with +1 BAB and +1 spellcasting] 1/Eldrich Knight 10/[+1 spellcasting] 5/[anything] 5 At level 9, you're a tank, plain and simple. With a +8 BAB and a d8 hit die or better at every level you're not sacrificing accuracy, a combo of Power Attack/Divine Might/True Strike means you can dish out awesome damage with each blow, and you get the max benefit from a chain shirt (+4 armor, +4 max dex). Your next levels until well into Epic all see your spellcasting improve while not losing anything in combat ability-18 Constitution makes up for the paltry d6 hit die of the Eldrich Knight. You have an extremely limited spell selection and a party that already provides all the general magic you'll need, so snag a full list of self-buffs. All the stuff post-Epic is up to you, though you'll want to make sure the first five levels all advance spellcasting. You end up with Epic spells much later than the rest of the group, but they can already cover the important stuff and you're a warrior with buffs anyway.
Stuu 12-01-05, 05:02 AM	Divine magic is currently gone (due to the fact that the gods have gone into hiding). So the Druid doesn’t get his spells either? I’m not sure how you are healing yourselves after combat. I’d go with a build that has at least some bard in it to get the arcane cure spells if you haven’t figured out another way. I’ve never played a bard or I’d offer you a build. I think a lot of people play them as archers. With a high strength score and a strength composite bow you could probably do better damage then a lot of archers.
deathwishjoe 12-01-05, 05:10 AM	okay heres what I'm going to suggest. it takes from a few things I've worked on myself and a few tricks I've seen on the boards here. My suggestion for the addition is to allow gestault sorcerer to keep your spell casting up. if that doesnt fly have FoP and possibly mindbender grant full spellcasting progression. human divine minion of Set LA +2 wizard 5 mind bender 1 fiend of possession 6 mindbender 2-7 feats 1 cosmopolitan (handle animal) 2 extend spell 3 spell focus (enchantment ) 4 shadow weave 5 greater spell focus (enchantment) --------------------------------------- the rest will be gained after level 9 6 insidious magic 7 extra spell (restoration) //I know its a cleric spell but we can say he found an arcane version 8 spell focus (necromancy) 9 Greater spell focus (necromancy) this is one mean nasty manipulative character. he'd probably be busy subverting the local populace but someone has messed with his God and now hes out for blood. hes not one for direct confrontation and in combat will go etherial to avoid damage. instead he will use undead and summons to do his damage. for non combat rolls this guy is THE master manipulator. invisability and ventrilloquism to throw your voice say underground. then cast charm XXX on the target and walk into the room normally while they're charmed. by level 12 we should have 2 important spells to help us manipulate in other ways. restoration and a spell from BoVD called power leech. find someone no one will notice missing for a few minuites like someone whos sleeping and then cast extended power leech on them. drain them of all there CHA and any other stats you wish and then ether restoration on your target so no one realizes what happened or restoration on yourself to make up for the loss in WIS. remember that you can cast restoration while the spell is draining them to refill your target untill your finished draining them. after a target gets drained you should have a really good CHA and can use diplomacy like nobodies business. remember that if you get the gestault sorcerer and your boosting your cha for every 8 cha you gain you get a bonus spell you can use for restoration. another thing you can do is to use power leech or feeblemind to drain a monster of all its int and then use handle animal on it to teach it tricks. I'd suggets power leech as with an int of 2 you can train it quite well and it doesnt loose anything except wizard levels of spell casting. I immagine a bunch of lobotomized trolls who are in communication with you telepathically and that beat stuff up for you while your hiding in the ethereal plain.
Dain 12-01-05, 08:16 AM	Builds that make use of high ability scores: 1) Gish - Human Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 w. Able Learner - Dwarf Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Runesmith 4/Spellsword 1/Eldritch Knight 10 The first one is the most fun, IMO, with insane skills, and it's also the most ability score dependant, the latter being slightly less dependant upon ability scores but more powerful in the high levels. 2) Paladin-type character - Dwarf Paladin 4/Fighter 1/Pious Templar 4/Battlesmith 1/Hammer of Moradin 10 : Get your 18 charisma, 18 wisdom and 1,5/2 times your 18 strength to damage with a Warhammer + specialization. Let's go! 3) Champion of Corellon Larethian - Elf Scout 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/CoCL 2/Dervish 10. Get your 20 Dex, 18 Int and 1,5 times your 18 Str to damage with an Elven Courtblade by 10th level. Plus all of the Dervish goodies later. ........................................ ........................................ .. Anyone of these builds would make fine use of your stats. - Dain
Seerow 12-01-05, 09:16 AM	Unearthed Arcana explicitly allowed and no mention of Gestalt? Im dissapointed.
Denethor 12-01-05, 11:05 AM	It depends on what u intend to do with it. I don't have my books here, but if u are going for a warrior-type, I'd suggest something like: Swash 3 / Pal of Freedom 4 / Ftr 1 / Dervish 10 / CoCL 2 U'd get Str + Int + Dex + Cha (with Divine Might) to damage. Focus on raising ur Dex and Cha, and u'll have pretty high AC and Saves too. Other than that, u could try take a look both at the Gish thread and at the Sublime Compilation for Gish characters. Getting a gish with Turn Undead for Divine Might would be another great option for you.
Dain 12-01-05, 11:19 AM	Denethor - your build imposes experience penalties.
Dain 12-01-05, 11:20 AM	Unearthed Arcana explicitly allowed and no mention of Gestalt? Im dissapointed. Uhm - if it was a Gestalt game, don't you think he would have told us?
nihility 12-01-05, 11:32 AM	Step 1) Pick "access to a demiplane where time flows 1,000,000,000 times faster than the normal rate" as your unique power. Step 2) Pick a race with no maximum age, such as a Necropolitan, an Elan, or a Warforged. Step 3) Follow the general advice here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7804909) or here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=7813119&postcount=39). You can't get that many cohorts, but you don't really need to worry about it. You've got the time. The exact results are up to you, but you're shooting for something along the lines detailed in those threads. Step 4) Profit.
Denethor 12-01-05, 11:34 AM	Its not in order... just make it human, with Fighter as a favored class, and its ok, unless my memory is playing tricks on me. Btw, iirc, u can also use Holy Liberator instead of Pal - it takes minor adjustments. Something like Swash 3 / Ftr 2 / Dervish, then enter in CoCL and HL to get the other stats to dmg asap.
Squirrelloid 12-01-05, 11:47 AM	Ok, there are three reasonable things i can see being played: (1) Artificer18/Marshal2 - no explanation required, really. Not sure what you do in epic (2) Wiz5/inc8/Fatespinner5/ArchM2/Inc+10 - the uber wizard of doom. Make sure to abuse the heck out of epic spellcasting (see link in my sig). Also abuse of Autoquicken and Multispell a must. (3) Of course, since you're going to 30, something like Master Transmogrifist suddenly becomes very appealing. Because shapechange is the way to supreme power in epic. wiz5/Inc5/MasTrans10/Inc+2/xxx8 where xxx is useful by some metric is a reasonable build. However, if you have access to Dragon material, there's a nifty feat that lets you sum your spellcasting class caster levels for the school you're specialized in to determine the caster level for that spell. (I forget the name offhand, someone can fill it in). Sadly, cleric is not an option. Druid seems to be. Transmuter 3/Dru3/MT2/Arcane Heir2/MasTrans10/AH+10 has wiz CL13 and Druid CL 7 at 20th. Dont worry, we get 10 more CLs for each in epic, netting us 23 and 17 CLs respectively for a Transmutation CL of 40, and thats before Practiced Spellcaster (which counts double cause it adds to both, so 48). Now have fun designing epic transmutation spells (yes, your CL really matter for this). This build will start shining around level 24, when it qualifies for epic spellcasting. And your familiar is also damn spiffy. You'll be dependent on polymorph for a long time though (or draconic polymorph, a definite improvement). I think you also end up with wildshape, but that is hardly a priority for now. Actually, Trans3/Dru3/MT2/AH10/MasTrans10/AH+2 might be the better way to do that. (Wiz 16/Dru 15 with CLs 20 and 19 with Practiced Spellcaster at 20th, 13th level familiar/animal companion in one). This lets you grab Epic Spellcasting at 21st, with a transmutation CL of 40 right then. A dip into Archmage for Mastery of Shaping (to use with AMF) is not a bad idea for MDJ protection)
Slyver 12-01-05, 05:24 PM	You mentioned monk as a possible choice. Here is a combat heavy monk, decent mage killer, battlefield wanderer. 1 monk stunning fist, dodge, combat expertise 2 monk combat reflexes 3 monk weapon focus unarmed strike 4 monk 5 monk 6 monk karmic strike, improved trip 7 shou diciple 8 shou diciple mobility 9 shou diciple two weapon fighting 10 shou diciple weapon focus scimitar 11 shou diciple 12 fighter improved critical scimitar, slusive target 13 fighter improved two weapon fighting 14 dervish 15 dervish greater two weapon fighting 16 dervish 17 dervish 18 dervish improved initiative 19 dervish 20 dervish 21-30 dervish (epic at 24) IF you can buy of LA i highly recommend the saint template (if you want to be good). It is amazing for any monk build. Assuming you are starting with enough exp for exactly level 9 you would have already boght off the first level for 7000 exp and be able to buy off the last one next level. You could even start as a goliath, buy off that la at level 3, then pick up the saint template (which is usualy how saint works) and buy that off at six, and then buy off the last at level 9. (Don't worry about being behind, you gain exp faster than your comrades and will be caught up in no time with a huge array of bonuses that go great with this character). If you do go Goliath, pick a flaw to have the same feat progression (although i am not a big fan of flaws). With goliath you would wield 2 large scimitars (at least when you hit dervish). At 20th level run of the mill attack routine would look like this: 18BAB (from flurry with scimitar) 16/16/16/11/6/1 +str +weapon +dervish +weapon focus at 1d8 +str +weapon +dervish AND (from two weapon fighting) 16/11/6 at 1d8 +1/2str +weapon + dervish all critting on a 15-20 x2 Not the MOST powerful but not bad. Oh ya, for your special ability... Dimension door as a free action 1/rnd as a blink dog. OR Blink at will as a blink dog. You could maybe even call it blink dog abilities and get both awesome (for this build anyways) abilities. While blink has a chance that you will miss with your swing, it has a MUCH better chance that no one, nothing except something that can see invis AND see ethereal will in any way be able to harm you. And you could turn it on and off at will... Overall i think the blink may be better, since it is at will, but it is really tough to say. Free action dimension door... This could also be done as a straight monk for a different effect. You could have even more mage killing abilities due to the SR and the ability to take stunning first enhancing feats, although less combat prowess. Slyver
Random Sasquatch 12-01-05, 05:26 PM	Alright guys, sorry about the confusion, its not a gestult game. I like a lot of what I'm seeing here. Don't worry about EXP penailties. I don't think they are going to be imposed. This DM said that he will have no qualms about putting five 16th level adventurers up against a CR 22 or CR 24, so I wanna bring out whatever big guns I can muster. A lot of people have said go with a gish, are there any gish builds that have a really good balance of casting and melee and MasTrans could also be thrown in? Speaking of MasTrans, what are some forms I should take, I'll search on the CO board, but if someone could link me, I'd appreciate it. Trans3/Dru3/MT2/AH10/MasTrans10/AH+2 This looks like it would be pretty tough in Epic play and this Wiz5/inc8/Fatespinner5/ArchM2/Inc+10 is pretty straight forward as far as ridiculously powerful mages go. Swash 3 / Pal of Freedom 4 / Ftr 1 / Dervish 10 / CoCL 2 Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 I also like these for a noncaster, but don't know where to go past 20. I've been trying to think of builds that would be great but suffer from a really bad case of MAD, so far nothing that can really match these. Any other ideas or will I choose from one of these?
Squirrelloid 12-01-05, 05:42 PM	A gish will never compete with a straight caster, because the caster is perfectly capable of gishing at these levels. Unless of course you want to go the Iaijutsu Master/Shadowlord/Mage of doom mode, and be willing to carry lots of daggers to drop. This requires the miniHB for true abusiveness (and willing collaborating partymembers!). Thats the only gish that could be possibly worth playing. I'm glad you liked my builds though =). I think the MasTrans ones could be fun as well as obscenely powerful. Oh, remember to pick up IUS with the MasTrans options, so you get your BAB attacks, then your natural attack progression. For great justice!
swanyusd 12-01-05, 05:57 PM	I just want to put in a quick word. I'm sure many of us here have played epic games, but I wanted to point something out. To be decent at all once you hit epic, you don't want something with a high LA. It just destroys usefulness of a character(at least what I've noticed so far, there may be exceptions, but...). Also, gish is fine if you want self-buff, but you certainly won't be able to hit the high SR of epic creatures with less than full caster levels (unless one of the spells you have is "lower spell resistance" from the draconomicon, which is f-in sweet), and you can't really hit some of the high AC's unless you have a really high BAB, OR, have a combo'd out class that combines multiple abilities to hit (like the Champion of corellon build). THe saint build is very nice, especially with monk, but thats more to keep you alive better than anyone else. Its not that great for hitting epic AC's (which at levels 25-30 will be way over 50). Since it seems your party has no ability to heal itself (short of magic items you find, like potions, wands, or scrolls), perhaps the healer class from the miniHB. I dont believe you cast spells given by a deity, and you can really keep your party alive with the spells you have. That is the biggest crutch you guys have in your game, and why your DM is allowing you to be crazy powerful (at least this is what it seems like to me). Last note: I'm jealous. I wanna play. :weep:
Slyver 12-01-05, 07:14 PM	To be decent at all once you hit epic, you don't want something with a high LA. It just destroys usefulness of a character(at least what I've noticed so far, there may be exceptions, but...). I agree completely. Level adjustment is nine times out of ten (or more) a complete waste. In fact, I would have to say my biggest complaint of the 3.5 D&D system is the level adjustment rules. The UA buyoff is decent, for low LA numbers, but it does not scale well at all. Anything over two and the rules fall apart. That template ain't worth jack at 20 (or worse, 30) wih all the other ways of acheiving the same effect. I only included the templates in my build IF they can be bought off. The saint build is very nice, especially with monk, but thats more to keep you alive better than anyone else. Its not that great for hitting epic AC's (which at levels 25-30 will be way over 50). Well, lets see. My build at 30 vs AC 50... This assumes the recommended addition of Goliath as race and 18 str to start which it had better be since five stats will be... I am also not going to use epic items which should blow away what I am presenting... Full attack with Flurry BAB 18 Str 22 +6 level (1 goes to dex for GTWF) +6 item +5 Tome = 39 bonus to hit = +14 Dervish dance +9 Magic scimitar +5 Weapon focus +1 Epic bonus +5 Two weapon fighting penalty (may or may not be there, lets throw it in) -2 Total to hit = 50/50/50/50/45/45/40/40/35 Remember, this is WITHOUT epic items or feats. Should hit AC 50 pretty consistently... If I don't put the per level ability points into str which I probably shouldn't it would be 3 less than that. As for his AC: (Again, no epic items or feats, assumes Goliath and Saint templates added and bought off. Its a high powered campaign, its a good assumption). Base 10 Wis 18 +2 saint +6 levels +5 tome +6item =37 bonus = +13 x2 Dex 18 -2 Goliath +1 level +6 item +5 tome = 28 bonus = +9 bracers of armor +8 Dervish +5 monk +1 Shou diciple +3 ring of protection +5 Amulet of natural armor +5 Total AC at 30 WITHOUT anything epic added in = 72 Fighting defensivly = +7 Full expertise = +5 Total AC with - 9 to attack = 84 The only thing he can't hit is himself :) This doesn't mention the damage reduction, fast healing or any of the other goodies, like movement and battlefield control and the ability to single out targets and destroy them anywhere on the field... I wouldn't send it up against the Tarrasque by himself like some of the builds on the CO board but, I think it could hold its own, and it would be a tremendsous mage killer. Slyver
swanyusd 12-01-05, 09:33 PM	ok, well, I am proven wrong about the saint templated creature... *bows to greatness*... at least I was right about the la stuff though :D Anyway, its really too bad you cant cast divine spells, cuz add in vow of poverty/peace/nonviolence with saint, and go monk/healer... could be fun. Wouldn't even need those silly items... don't know what you do with all the cash leftover, but... could be worth looking into. You then would be very difficult to hit, although sylvan has hit it on the nail with his goliath saint build. You may want that one, since it seems frickin ridiculous. Question tho, how are that char's saves?
SoulGamit 12-01-05, 10:08 PM	*ponders* honestly, it looks like your team has every major role in a party covered, two primary spellcasters, a druid, a roguish character, and two fighters. All that's really left is... well... nothing. However, that said, you can still contribute to the party: Ask your DM for the alternate form ability of a lycanthrop as your special power and be a weredusmendu guard bat. Go Feral Human LA 1 / Fighter 1 / Animal HD 4 / Monk 2 / Warshaper 2 / Soul Eater 10 If your DM doesn't force you to get the animal HD like a normal lycanothrop then the build becomes: Feral Human LA 1 / Monk 2 / Hexblade 3 / Warshaper 2 / Soul Eater 7 / Warshaper 2 / Soul Eater 10 The trick is to use warshaper to grow as many natural attacks as possible. Also ask about adding templates to your alternate form. Magebred comes to mind, as does paragon (although no sane DM would allow that). The reason monk levels are in there is because you can use unarmed strikes with natural weapons, so you'll get a few extra attacks from your BAB. In the end, with improved multiattack and a base str of 18, your battle reutine should look something like this (not counting items or stat increases from leveling). Grow a slap, slam, claw, talon, wing, tenticle, tail, stinger hoof and arm (as well as any other natural attacks you can think of) +24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+24/+19/+14 If you don't need the animal HD, add another attack on there at +9 and then increase the to hit for all attacks by 2. This is also only at level 20, post level 20 you should try and convince your DM that the soul eater gains another energy absorbtion every 6 levels, then take another 3 levels of soul eater, then 7 of warhulk. At level 30, your full attack will look like this: +41/+41/+41/+41/+41/+41/+41/+41/+41/+41/+41/+41/+36/+31 Again, add another attack at +26 and then increase all the to hit bonuses by 2 if you don't need to add animal HD. Also note that you hit 3 people per attack.
ninjarabbit 12-01-05, 10:30 PM	A sublime gish will serve this party well as this party looks like it needs a generalist who can fill several different roles well bard8/fighter1/spellsword1/sublimechord2/sacredexorcist4/eldritchknigh4 or bard8/paladin2/sublimechord2/sacredexorcist4/spellsword1/eldrtichknight3
Slyver 12-01-05, 10:39 PM	Anyway, its really too bad you cant cast divine spells, cuz add in vow of poverty/peace/nonviolence with saint, and go monk/healer... could be fun. Wouldn't even need those silly items... don't know what you do with all the cash leftover, but... could be worth looking into. You then would be very difficult to hit, although sylvan has hit it on the nail with his goliath saint build. You may want that one, since it seems frickin ridiculous. All those vow things, apostle of peace, etc definitely have some nice points. That being said however, vow of poverty all by itself ruins it for anyone going epic. It starts to lose its appeal somewhere in levels 15-20 due to items that are standards for those levels becoming both more versatile (which they always were) AND more powerful (it took a while for that to happen, but it did) than all of the VOP abilities. Going epic with that? Big mistake imo. Unless there were some epic exhalted feats that you got every other level, and the stat bonuses continued to go up, and you got some other cool divine like abilities, i.e, you sit down with your dm and rewrite the feat, it just really isnt worth it. It creates a lower powered character in comparison AND you have to be good. Hell, break the vow at that point... Question tho, how are that char's saves? Base saves at 20 are: fort 14 ref 14 (with evasion) will 11 For stat bonuses I am going to assume tomes only for str and wis, his two primary stats. A level 30 character probably has one for each stat, but I wont use that. I am going to assume a couple non epic items however, cloak of resistence +5 and belt of magnificence (I think that is what it is called) +6 to all stats so con will be 18 + 2 goliath +2 saint +6 belt = 28 bonus = +9 dex as pointed out above is +9 wis as pointed out above is +13 Total saves at 30: fort 14 base + 5 epic + 9 con + 5 cloak = 33 ref 14 base + 5 epic + 9 con + 5 cloak = 33 will 11 base + 5 epic + 13 wis + 5 cloak = 34 I admit a two level dip into paladin would be nice as his cha is not too shabby (although the lowest of this characters stats at 24 without tome and with belt) and would certainly fit the character anyways as he has to be lawful good... However, I am just not sure it is worth it. He said he gets a special ability. I offered blink as a possibility. With that he would only have to ROLL a saving throw half the time, at least against most things. And he has already given up enough levels of dervish.
GreatEye 12-01-05, 10:48 PM	With such killer ability scores, I'd go MONK GISH: Monk 2/Wizard 3/Enlightened Fist 10/ ? I think you could seriously wreck some sh*t.
DavidWL 12-01-05, 11:23 PM	I'll chime in with others saying that you really need an idea of the role you want to play. Since Unearthed Arcana is in play, I'll assume that you are using BAB stacking, Save stacking, Flaws, and generic classes (if desired). I tend to like generalists Fochlucan Lyrist with Druid and Arcane Casting Chameleon You can see my sig. for links to relavent threads A synergist might be nice Someone to make the rest of the party better could be fun ... Sorcerer 3/Marshall 2/Paladin 2/Heartfire Fanner 5/War Weaver 5/Heir of Siberys 3 -- depending on how you interpret Heartfire Fanner, you might also have full bardic music -- Heartfire fanner + Song of the Heart => 4 bonus fighter feats to all allies. Also, you might want to take song of creation (and maybe extend song). --Marshall gives 2 auras (CHA vs. spell resistance one and "the art of war" might be logical) --Greater harmonize allows bardic music as a move action (I think). => Layer Bardic music abilities, so many are in effect at one time (with extend song) ... including the ability to give all allies 4 feats! (Or more depending on how your DM rules "Words of Creation" works). => 1 marshall Aura => *Also* use War Weaver to cast 1 spell per round. Take advantage of UA Take 2 flaws Consider taking a generic arcane caster with some of the cleric-only spells. If mixing of generic and non-generic classes is allowed, this can lead to some powerful characters. Look at variant characters (feat rogue...) Use BAB stacking Use Save stacking Consider Generic classes for their *generic feats* -- ask your DM if he'll let you snag cool abilities not listed. Use level buyoff: take a +2 level adjustment template/race Your unique ability Pick a concept you like. Find a way to make it. Typically, you see things that you could "almost" fit in, or that don't *quite* work. Use your ability there. (For example: to snag bardic music. to get a Jordain Vizier's Eidetic Memory. Evasion to qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist. Possilbly something more creative.) surviving I also like survival builds, a la: Changling [shadow creature +2 LA]: Paladin 2/Hexblade 3/Ur-Priest 2/Bone Knight 10/Blackguard 2/Something 1 Take "Southern Magician" to be able to cast Lvl worth of spells per day (chainging your divine spells to Arcane -- assuming your DM allows it). In general Have fun. Pick a build you would like. Best, David
Zathyr 12-01-05, 11:27 PM	A sublime gish will serve this party well as this party looks like it needs a generalist who can fill several different roles well bard8/fighter1/spellsword1/sublimechord2/sacredexorcist4/eldritchknigh4 or bard8/paladin2/sublimechord2/sacredexorcist4/spellsword1/eldrtichknight3 He specifically mentioned Eberron materials were OK, right? That could make Knight Phantom an option. It's certainly better than Eldritch Knight here. Also, there is an (as far as I know) unofficial epic progression for VoP. It gets some nice stuff (including divine rank eventually) - would be great for a MoMF, I think.
World Savers Inc. 12-01-05, 11:56 PM	have you considered Psionics? A Psion 30 or a Psion/Illithid Slayer combination would not be bad.
Slyver 12-02-05, 12:10 AM	A sublime gish will serve this party well as this party looks like it needs a generalist who can fill several different roles well bard8/fighter1/spellsword1/sublimechord2/sacredexorcist4/eldritchknigh4 or bard8/paladin2/sublimechord2/sacredexorcist4/spellsword1/eldrtichknight3 I disagree that either of these is a good choice. While they make great builds that stop at 20, they are not at all epic ready. He specifically mentioned Eberron materials were OK, right? That could make Knight Phantom an option. It's certainly better than Eldritch Knight here. I'm not convinced this is true. It gains some cool but mostly flavor abilities (which can be duplicated with spell and magic item choice) at the cost of two precious feats. (One useless to get in, - one bonus). Its best ability, somatic prowess, you already have from bard. For Gish type (for this party anyways, as all of the bases are covered) I recommend Bard 8/ Fighter (or paladin/or soldier of light) 2/ Sublime Chord 1/ Eldritch knight 9 or Bard 8/ Fighter (or paladin/or soldier of light) 2/ Sublime Chord 10 or if you want to go old school gish with a little more combat prowess, a little less skill oriented/group friendly: Fighter (or paladin)2 /wiz (or sorcerer) 4/ Spellsword 5/ EK 9 There are some great threads floating around with some fantastic ideas on feats and such. I would go one of these because they are, like my monk/dervish build above, more epic friendly than the usual vogue builds. People tend to forget that all the builds that we think are so great are often optimized for one level and one level only. Which is great if you spend your entire career at level 20 and dont have to get there, and never leave. Don't worry about 9th level spells and such. If you are going epic, you will get them anyways. Who cares if you get them at 21 instead of 20? Also, there is an (as far as I know) unofficial epic progression for VoP. It gets some nice stuff (including divine rank eventually) - would be great for a MoMF, I think. I found this http://p198.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm2.showMessage?topicID= 501.topic Alot of great ideas, but without anything official (or at least official looking) there is too much room to play, which means no way to optimize for someone else as too much relies on direct interaction with the DM. Was there another progression that you were talking about? I would love to see it if so. Slyver
Gwythion 12-02-05, 12:17 AM	Make an Ur-Priest that steals divine spells from the necromancer. :P
Zathyr 12-02-05, 12:51 AM	This board uses bbcode. You just use ]url[ tags (with the brackets the right way round) to link. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=274713 is the progression I was thinking of. I tried your link but it tells me the post is no longer there. As for this, it's in the BoED forum which is under the mature supplements section, ie. I don't think it'll work for anyone under 17 or 18. And I'd forgotten about the feat requirement of KP, but I'd hardly call Still Spell useless. Maybe not as useful as others you could add, granted.. And the thing about gish builds going epic, is you can continue them with whatever +casting classes you like since bab ceases to matter after 20. *shrug* Sure there's potential for further optimization, but really why not just start taking Incantrix. ;)
Slyver 12-02-05, 03:03 AM	Cool, thanks for the tip on the bbcode. The board is formatting the url incorrecly adding white spaces after the "=" sign and such causing the cgi params to get all screwy. The link you posted doesn't work for me. It wont let me in (and I am definitely older than 18 :) .) I will try to figure out why. As for going into incantrix or somthing when bab is no longer and issue the idea certainly has merit. More bonus epic feats certainly are nice though. It would have to be looked at in more detail. As for still spells usefulness, I suppose you could keep a permamemmed rope trick or some anti-grapple spell at +1 spell slot level for those just in case times. Just curious however, have you ever used still spell? Was it effective? Was it worth the feat? Ever? IF the answer to any of these is yes, how many times? Also, in your entire gaming career, how many times have you WISHED you had the still spell feat and chosen the perfect spell to memorize. I can only remember once in the past coulpe years where it even crossed my mind. (Mountain Giant encounter) Now that to me is a useless feat. Sudden still on the other hand... That at least MIGHT come in handy.
Neo_Leviathan 12-02-05, 08:56 AM	Well it's extremely far from perfect, but here is a build that kinda strikes fear in the hearts of mages. In terms of stats, 5 18s and a 14 Put the 14 in Int. Monk 2 Hexblade 4 Occult Slayer 5 Take Dwarven Warpike proficiency (from Races of Stone, *really* nice reach weapon), and you have a great, high-damage high-crit reach weapon, *and* unarmed strike if they get in close. Now, this gives you rather large saves, and makes mages kinda nervous around you. If possible (ie, if you GM allows changing alignment part way through), throw in Vow of Poverty for the huge bonuses, and take the Kensai PrC. I'm sure it could be far far better optimised, but thats just a quick extrapolation from an NpC I threw against my players, except that guy was a Half-Fiend as well.