8th Level Gish [Archive] - Wizards Community

8th Level Gish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SgiathatchTaren
06-25-04, 10:38 PM What I'm trying to make is a 8th level Gish, using a sorcerer type magic class (mainly sorcerer or warmage (Miniature's Handbook) possibly even Battle Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana).

I'd like as much spellcasting as possible (3rd level spells prefered), with a minimum of +8 to hit with a 18-20 threat weapon (and that's including bonuses from str/feats etc, prefer +10 or better) and a good AC (prefer high mobility, but not required) with no XP penalty

Any Non-ECL/LA Race (human/elven/half-elven prefered)

Stat scores are: 18, 17, 17, 16, 15, 14 (place them in any order)

Core books, all splat books (3E and 3.5E), Dragon Magazine, possibly some things from Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, and Dragonlance campaign settings (and supplements).

Money for equipment is 27,000gps, custom items accepted (need market price for them and if possible, what's needed to make it)

The build I have is:
Battle Sorcerer 4 (is considered to be sorcerer, so is a favored class), Fighter 1, Spellsword 1, Dragonslayer 1, Eldritch Knight 1

Magic-Blooded High Elf (+2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Wis, +2 Cha)

Stats (After Racial and Level Adjustments)
Str 18
Dex 22
Con 13
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 22

Feats: Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Spell Focus (Evocation), Weapon Focus (Scimitar)

+2 Mithral Chain Shirt (5,100gp)
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000gp)
Cloak of Charisma +2 (4,000gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000gp)
+1 Scimitar (Keen) (8,000gp)

Attack is +13 with scimitar
AC is 23 (24 w/dodge)
CL 6

Thank You for your time and your advice
samoosa691
06-25-04, 11:05 PM i'd suggest you look at the link in my signiature, very detailed and done very nicely by josephkell... very helpful.
SgiathatchTaren
06-25-04, 11:20 PM I have (still am actually), but all I've seen so far aren't actually very good at low levels or don't fit the concept. I may find what I want, but I'd like it optimized for 8th lvl, not 20th (will never get there, might get to 14) and it seems a lot of them are wizard based. I'll admit, I could be missing a build or two that are there that would fit (I'm only human), and if so, please point it/them out, cause there is a lot of posts on that thread and it seems like it's going to take me forever to get through it, lol, but anyways, thanks for the advice
Lforino
06-25-04, 11:29 PM You should look at the White Dragon spawn template from Dragonlance. I do not remember all the details but you get some jacked abilities plus one level of Sor.
If someone has it handy please post it for SgiathatchTaren

Lou
Blade2718
06-25-04, 11:34 PM Pal2/Sorc6/Spellsword3/EK9

BAB +16, 16th caster level, amazing saves from divine grace, ASF reduction.
SgiathatchTaren
06-26-04, 12:03 AM Doesn't White Dragon Spawn have a level adjustment? if it does, I can't use it.

And remember, 8th lvl, not 20th, and I should have added, I prefer NG, CG, CN or N for alignment (might change that for worthy enough build)
Blade2718
06-26-04, 12:19 AM Originally posted by Blade2718
Pal2/Sorc6/Spellsword3/EK9

BAB +16, 16th caster level, amazing saves from divine grace, ASF reduction.
For 8th lvl, Pal2/Sorc6, then go:
Spellsword 1/ EK 5
Lforino
06-26-04, 12:21 AM Originally posted by SgiathatchTaren
Doesn't White Dragon Spawn have a level adjustment? if it does, I can't use it.

And remember, 8th lvl, not 20th, and I should have added, I prefer NG, CG, CN or N for alignment (might change that for worthy enough build)

It has a +1 LA, but it give you a caster level.
SgiathatchTaren
06-26-04, 01:24 AM Ok, modified the build a little, thanks blade

Battle Sorcerer 4 (is considered to be sorcerer, so is a favored class), Paladin 1, Spellsword 1, Dragonslayer 1, Eldritch Knight 1

Magic-Blooded High Elf (+2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Wis, +2 Cha)

Stats (After Racial and Level Adjustments)
Str 18
Dex 22
Con 13
Int 16
Wis 12
Cha 22

Feats: Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Weapon Focus (Scimitar)

Special Abilities are:
Detect Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Divine Health (Paladin)
Aura of Courage, +1 damage to dragons (Dragonslayer)
-10 ASF (Spellsword)

Saves are:
Fortitude 16
Reflex 13
Will 17

+2 Mithral Chain Shirt (5,100gp)
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000gp)
Cloak of Charisma +2 (4,000gp)
Ring of Protection +1 (2,000gp)
+1 Scimitar (Keen) (8,000gp)

Attack is +13 with scimitar
AC is 23 (24 w/dodge)
CL 6

I can't justify losing another caster level for just Smite Evil since Dragonslayer already gives me Aura of Courage

Hopefully I did my math right

[Edit]

Plus, Pal 2/Sorc 6 would not let me wear armor without spell failure
JosephKell
06-26-04, 02:06 AM If I were doing Level 8, I would do Fighter or Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 2

However, if you are a gish, you NEED Spellsword 4 because that is when you get Channel Spell. Channel Spell is the BEST feature of the Spellsword.
SgiathatchTaren
06-26-04, 02:13 AM Why Pal 2? We (the group I play in) have the 3E PHB, and it seems that Pal 1 and dragonslayer 1 (granted, there are other classes to this) would be better, unless Pal has been changed in 3.5E (we're using 3E and adding 3.5E books, but don't have the 3.5E phb, dmg, or mm)
JosephKell
06-26-04, 02:24 AM Dragonslayer requires a BAB of +5 and a few feats (Iron Will and Dodge).

I prefer Fighter 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 because of how simple it is.
1. NO FEAT REQUIREMENTS
2. NO SPELL REQUIREMENTS
3. NO SKILL REQUIREMENTS

Wow, that is pretty awesome.

The only place to put Dragonslayer in is inplace of an Eldritch Knight level, which isn't all that bad on its own, and it is very easy to throw in the two feats, but each feat you throw into a build is a feat you delay or have to skip over.

-Jonathan
SgiathatchTaren
06-26-04, 02:35 AM I can understand that, but this character will never hit 20th level, it'll get to 14-15 max, and how the build is now, I can just keep up on the eldritch knight to 15 (I think that's EK9 total), be missing just 2 CL, and 1 BAB, his spells are mainly for ranged combat, since the party has a wizard buffer, this guy is kind of a healer (thanks to my DM saying I can use a concept from QS to get the healing domain spells added to spells known) and blaster when it's needed, I guess I shouldn't have called him a gish cause he doesn't exactly fit the definition you put down (or someone else did) for gish
mellowship
06-26-04, 06:12 AM Originally posted by SgiathatchTaren
Why Pal 2? We (the group I play in) have the 3E PHB, and it seems that Pal 1 and dragonslayer 1 (granted, there are other classes to this) would be better, unless Pal has been changed in 3.5E (we're using 3E and adding 3.5E books, but don't have the 3.5E phb, dmg, or mm)
Because in 3.5, Paladin doesn't get Cha to saves until level 2.

If you can use Unearthed Arcana, racial Paragon levels might add something to the build. I don't care much for Battle Sorcerer; losing the spells known *hurts* for a sorcerer, and losing the spells per day means less Arcane Striking (which ought to be the number-one tactic for a Gish).

Rage Mage is an underrated approach for Gish builds. While Spell Raging, your caster level equals your character level, so for caster-level-dependent effects, you can keep up with a primary caster. If you want something with barbaric flavor, it's not a bad way to go. A good build would be something like
Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Rage Mage 2/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 7.
Take a Weasel familiar to shore up your crappy Reflex save a bit.

However, if your build doesn't lose more than four caster levels, and you're not stuck on being a barbaric type, taking Practiced Spellcaster is slightly more efficient (since Rage Mage requires Combat Casting, you're out one feat either way).
Sang-Drax
06-26-04, 09:16 AM Don't get Battlesorcerer, it stinks. You'll end up with 8hp more and 1 BAB more for the cost of 1 spell known and 1 spell per day per spell level. It's just not worth it - and I'm currently playing with one.

I would go pal2/sor4/spellsword 2

If you have feats to spare, get Education at 1st level, then go

pal2/sor4/spellsword3/eldritch knight 7/sacred exorcist 4 and you can use divine might and wear twilight mithril full plate with no ASF. BAB +17, CL 16th. Get Practiced Spellcaster and you'll cast spells as a 20th level sorcerer at level 20. Still, you'll have only 8th level spells, and only when you reach 20th level.

*or*

pal2/sor4/spellsword1/eldritch knight 9/sacred exorcist 4

if you don't bother casting spells in full plate. Get 1 more caster level and raises Reflex by 1 point compared to the previous build above.

*or yet*

pal2/sor4/spellsword3/eldritch knight 7/raumathari battlemage 4

You don't really need Education, but RB is really heavy featwise, ,but you gain Channel Spell and other stuff withou losing a CL (but lose 1 BAB). You'll also cast spells 1 level higher with the Sword Focus feature.

RB is from Unapproachable East.
SgiathatchTaren
06-26-04, 01:25 PM Ok, thanks mellow, I didn't know that, so I guess I'm back to using fighter again. The Battle Sorcerer doesn't hurt that much because of a concept my DM pointed out to me to let me add the healing domain spells to my spells known (QS by Mongoose I believe), and with Cha that high, I don't really loose spells per day until somewhere around 5th level spells (except for loosing the 1 0th level).

I'm not sure why everyone keeps saying to get the Channel ability from either Spellsword or another PrC. I'm not sure what the real benefits are for it (granted, hitting someone and a fireball explodes on them is interesting, but ultimately deadly for me too) or I'm just too inexperienced with it to understand it.

Well, I think I should expand on what I've said to begin with. The reason I'm making this character like this is DM request, he wanted me to play a fighter/sorcerer like I used to, which for me was using magic to do slight buffs (like shield and blur) throw some fireballs at them, then close in and mow them down. But with this party, they really need a healer of some sorts, my DM gave me the ability to have healing in this class, so I'm trying to keep it where I lose as few CL as possible so the healing ability will stay up with the party (bunch of fighters and a mage). That's why I can deal with losing a few spells per day but not the ability to cast certain level spells. Also he'll need to be able to run point in the group (they're followers, not really leaders) so the need for armor to hopefully survive an ambush, then he can pull back to do some blasting or stay in the middle and do what damage he can with his sword. So I guess him having to do multiple roles is the difficult part of this build plus his need to survive (deadly game, so far everyone has died at least once, most have died 2-4 times already and had to make new characters, which I'm trying to avoid).

I hope that explains better and I'm not trying to be close-minded to the suggestions you give, it's just a kind of demanding role I'll be placed in
mellowship
06-27-04, 04:38 AM Originally posted by SgiathatchTaren
Ok, thanks mellow, I didn't know that, so I guess I'm back to using fighter again. The Battle Sorcerer doesn't hurt that much because of a concept my DM pointed out to me to let me add the healing domain spells to my spells known (QS by Mongoose I believe), and with Cha that high, I don't really loose spells per day until somewhere around 5th level spells (except for loosing the 1 0th level).
Hrm. Sounds like a seriously juiced-up version of the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine. It's not core, but hey, if your DM lets you use Mongoose stuff, more power to you.

I'm not sure why everyone keeps saying to get the Channel ability from either Spellsword or another PrC. I'm not sure what the real benefits are for it (granted, hitting someone and a fireball explodes on them is interesting, but ultimately deadly for me too) or I'm just too inexperienced with it to understand it.
Fun spells to channel with are single-target touch or ray spells that don't give saving throws. The Raumathari Battlemage's channeling is pretty weak, since it's limited in the spell levels you can use with it, but the Spellsword's channeling is awesome. What's really great about it for a sorcerer is that it gets around the increased casting time for spontaneous metamagic. Channeling a metamagicked spell uses a move action just like channeling a regular spell, rather than the full-round action it would take to cast a metamagicked spell.

A good spell for Channeling is Vampiric Touch. Not only does it do a decent amount of damage, it gives you extra temporary hp. If you're attacking spellcasters, try Channeling a Maximized Empowered Touch of Idiocy. Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation are also fun. Since your DM is letting you use healing spells, Channeling Heal makes for a nifty undead-killer.

Well, I think I should expand on what I've said to begin with. The reason I'm making this character like this is DM request, he wanted me to play a fighter/sorcerer like I used to, which for me was using magic to do slight buffs (like shield and blur) throw some fireballs at them, then close in and mow them down. But with this party, they really need a healer of some sorts, my DM gave me the ability to have healing in this class, so I'm trying to keep it where I lose as few CL as possible so the healing ability will stay up with the party (bunch of fighters and a mage). That's why I can deal with losing a few spells per day but not the ability to cast certain level spells. Also he'll need to be able to run point in the group (they're followers, not really leaders) so the need for armor to hopefully survive an ambush, then he can pull back to do some blasting or stay in the middle and do what damage he can with his sword. So I guess him having to do multiple roles is the difficult part of this build plus his need to survive (deadly game, so far everyone has died at least once, most have died 2-4 times already and had to make new characters, which I'm trying to avoid).

I hope that explains better and I'm not trying to be close-minded to the suggestions you give, it's just a kind of demanding role I'll be placed in
Well, if you're serious about not losing too many caster levels, but want to make a reasonably tough Gish, then Fighter 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 6/Sacred Exorcist 4 is a good way to go. Your 16 caster levels aren't the most you could have, but you end up with BAB +18 and the ability to turn undead (and thus, access to Divine feats).

The progression would look something like so:
1 Fighter 1. Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative
2-5 Battle Sorcerer 1-4. Spell Penetration
6-10 Spellsword 1-5. Greater Spell Penetration, Empower Spell (Spellsword bonus), Arcane Strike
11-14 Eldritch Knight 1-4. Improved Toughness (EK bonus), Practiced Spellcaster
15-18 Sacred Exorcist 1-4. Divine Might, Divine Vigor
19-20 Eldritch Knight 5-6.

The feats aren't really set in stone, though I'd say Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Arcane Strike, Practiced Spellcaster, and Divine Might are must-haves. You could replace the Spell Penetration feats with whatever, or the Empower Spell with whatever metamagics float your boat, and the Divine Vigor with another Divine feat of your choice, without compromising this build. For instance, the Arcane Preparation/Quicken combo is really quite nice for a sorcerer, though it doesn't do anything for you until you can cast 5th level spells. Before that, Arcane Preparation and a Quicken metamagic rod will be of some use.

The Spellsword levels are there not only for the Channel Spell, but because all Knowledge skills are class skills, which helps in getting the 10 ranks of (religion) and the 7 ranks of (planes) needed to qualify for Sacred Exorcist.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SgiathatchTaren 06-25-04, 10:38 PM	What I'm trying to make is a 8th level Gish, using a sorcerer type magic class (mainly sorcerer or warmage (Miniature's Handbook) possibly even Battle Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana). I'd like as much spellcasting as possible (3rd level spells prefered), with a minimum of +8 to hit with a 18-20 threat weapon (and that's including bonuses from str/feats etc, prefer +10 or better) and a good AC (prefer high mobility, but not required) with no XP penalty Any Non-ECL/LA Race (human/elven/half-elven prefered) Stat scores are: 18, 17, 17, 16, 15, 14 (place them in any order) Core books, all splat books (3E and 3.5E), Dragon Magazine, possibly some things from Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, and Dragonlance campaign settings (and supplements). Money for equipment is 27,000gps, custom items accepted (need market price for them and if possible, what's needed to make it) The build I have is: Battle Sorcerer 4 (is considered to be sorcerer, so is a favored class), Fighter 1, Spellsword 1, Dragonslayer 1, Eldritch Knight 1 Magic-Blooded High Elf (+2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Wis, +2 Cha) Stats (After Racial and Level Adjustments) Str 18 Dex 22 Con 13 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 22 Feats: Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Spell Focus (Evocation), Weapon Focus (Scimitar) +2 Mithral Chain Shirt (5,100gp) Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000gp) Cloak of Charisma +2 (4,000gp) Ring of Protection +1 (2,000gp) +1 Scimitar (Keen) (8,000gp) Attack is +13 with scimitar AC is 23 (24 w/dodge) CL 6 Thank You for your time and your advice
samoosa691 06-25-04, 11:05 PM	i'd suggest you look at the link in my signiature, very detailed and done very nicely by josephkell... very helpful.
SgiathatchTaren 06-25-04, 11:20 PM	I have (still am actually), but all I've seen so far aren't actually very good at low levels or don't fit the concept. I may find what I want, but I'd like it optimized for 8th lvl, not 20th (will never get there, might get to 14) and it seems a lot of them are wizard based. I'll admit, I could be missing a build or two that are there that would fit (I'm only human), and if so, please point it/them out, cause there is a lot of posts on that thread and it seems like it's going to take me forever to get through it, lol, but anyways, thanks for the advice
Lforino 06-25-04, 11:29 PM	You should look at the White Dragon spawn template from Dragonlance. I do not remember all the details but you get some jacked abilities plus one level of Sor. If someone has it handy please post it for SgiathatchTaren Lou
Blade2718 06-25-04, 11:34 PM	Pal2/Sorc6/Spellsword3/EK9 BAB +16, 16th caster level, amazing saves from divine grace, ASF reduction.
SgiathatchTaren 06-26-04, 12:03 AM	Doesn't White Dragon Spawn have a level adjustment? if it does, I can't use it. And remember, 8th lvl, not 20th, and I should have added, I prefer NG, CG, CN or N for alignment (might change that for worthy enough build)
Blade2718 06-26-04, 12:19 AM	Originally posted by Blade2718 Pal2/Sorc6/Spellsword3/EK9 BAB +16, 16th caster level, amazing saves from divine grace, ASF reduction. For 8th lvl, Pal2/Sorc6, then go: Spellsword 1/ EK 5
Lforino 06-26-04, 12:21 AM	Originally posted by SgiathatchTaren Doesn't White Dragon Spawn have a level adjustment? if it does, I can't use it. And remember, 8th lvl, not 20th, and I should have added, I prefer NG, CG, CN or N for alignment (might change that for worthy enough build) It has a +1 LA, but it give you a caster level.
SgiathatchTaren 06-26-04, 01:24 AM	Ok, modified the build a little, thanks blade Battle Sorcerer 4 (is considered to be sorcerer, so is a favored class), Paladin 1, Spellsword 1, Dragonslayer 1, Eldritch Knight 1 Magic-Blooded High Elf (+2 Dex, -2 Con, -2 Wis, +2 Cha) Stats (After Racial and Level Adjustments) Str 18 Dex 22 Con 13 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 22 Feats: Dodge, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Weapon Focus (Scimitar) Special Abilities are: Detect Evil, Divine Grace, Lay on Hands, Divine Health (Paladin) Aura of Courage, +1 damage to dragons (Dragonslayer) -10 ASF (Spellsword) Saves are: Fortitude 16 Reflex 13 Will 17 +2 Mithral Chain Shirt (5,100gp) Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000gp) Cloak of Charisma +2 (4,000gp) Ring of Protection +1 (2,000gp) +1 Scimitar (Keen) (8,000gp) Attack is +13 with scimitar AC is 23 (24 w/dodge) CL 6 I can't justify losing another caster level for just Smite Evil since Dragonslayer already gives me Aura of Courage Hopefully I did my math right [Edit] Plus, Pal 2/Sorc 6 would not let me wear armor without spell failure
JosephKell 06-26-04, 02:06 AM	If I were doing Level 8, I would do Fighter or Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 2 However, if you are a gish, you NEED Spellsword 4 because that is when you get Channel Spell. Channel Spell is the BEST feature of the Spellsword.
SgiathatchTaren 06-26-04, 02:13 AM	Why Pal 2? We (the group I play in) have the 3E PHB, and it seems that Pal 1 and dragonslayer 1 (granted, there are other classes to this) would be better, unless Pal has been changed in 3.5E (we're using 3E and adding 3.5E books, but don't have the 3.5E phb, dmg, or mm)
JosephKell 06-26-04, 02:24 AM	Dragonslayer requires a BAB of +5 and a few feats (Iron Will and Dodge). I prefer Fighter 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 9 because of how simple it is. 1. NO FEAT REQUIREMENTS 2. NO SPELL REQUIREMENTS 3. NO SKILL REQUIREMENTS Wow, that is pretty awesome. The only place to put Dragonslayer in is inplace of an Eldritch Knight level, which isn't all that bad on its own, and it is very easy to throw in the two feats, but each feat you throw into a build is a feat you delay or have to skip over. -Jonathan
SgiathatchTaren 06-26-04, 02:35 AM	I can understand that, but this character will never hit 20th level, it'll get to 14-15 max, and how the build is now, I can just keep up on the eldritch knight to 15 (I think that's EK9 total), be missing just 2 CL, and 1 BAB, his spells are mainly for ranged combat, since the party has a wizard buffer, this guy is kind of a healer (thanks to my DM saying I can use a concept from QS to get the healing domain spells added to spells known) and blaster when it's needed, I guess I shouldn't have called him a gish cause he doesn't exactly fit the definition you put down (or someone else did) for gish
mellowship 06-26-04, 06:12 AM	Originally posted by SgiathatchTaren Why Pal 2? We (the group I play in) have the 3E PHB, and it seems that Pal 1 and dragonslayer 1 (granted, there are other classes to this) would be better, unless Pal has been changed in 3.5E (we're using 3E and adding 3.5E books, but don't have the 3.5E phb, dmg, or mm) Because in 3.5, Paladin doesn't get Cha to saves until level 2. If you can use Unearthed Arcana, racial Paragon levels might add something to the build. I don't care much for Battle Sorcerer; losing the spells known hurts for a sorcerer, and losing the spells per day means less Arcane Striking (which ought to be the number-one tactic for a Gish). Rage Mage is an underrated approach for Gish builds. While Spell Raging, your caster level equals your character level, so for caster-level-dependent effects, you can keep up with a primary caster. If you want something with barbaric flavor, it's not a bad way to go. A good build would be something like Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Rage Mage 2/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 7. Take a Weasel familiar to shore up your crappy Reflex save a bit. However, if your build doesn't lose more than four caster levels, and you're not stuck on being a barbaric type, taking Practiced Spellcaster is slightly more efficient (since Rage Mage requires Combat Casting, you're out one feat either way).
Sang-Drax 06-26-04, 09:16 AM	Don't get Battlesorcerer, it stinks. You'll end up with 8hp more and 1 BAB more for the cost of 1 spell known and 1 spell per day per spell level. It's just not worth it - and I'm currently playing with one. I would go pal2/sor4/spellsword 2 If you have feats to spare, get Education at 1st level, then go pal2/sor4/spellsword3/eldritch knight 7/sacred exorcist 4 and you can use divine might and wear twilight mithril full plate with no ASF. BAB +17, CL 16th. Get Practiced Spellcaster and you'll cast spells as a 20th level sorcerer at level 20. Still, you'll have only 8th level spells, and only when you reach 20th level. or pal2/sor4/spellsword1/eldritch knight 9/sacred exorcist 4 if you don't bother casting spells in full plate. Get 1 more caster level and raises Reflex by 1 point compared to the previous build above. or yet pal2/sor4/spellsword3/eldritch knight 7/raumathari battlemage 4 You don't really need Education, but RB is really heavy featwise, ,but you gain Channel Spell and other stuff withou losing a CL (but lose 1 BAB). You'll also cast spells 1 level higher with the Sword Focus feature. RB is from Unapproachable East.
SgiathatchTaren 06-26-04, 01:25 PM	Ok, thanks mellow, I didn't know that, so I guess I'm back to using fighter again. The Battle Sorcerer doesn't hurt that much because of a concept my DM pointed out to me to let me add the healing domain spells to my spells known (QS by Mongoose I believe), and with Cha that high, I don't really loose spells per day until somewhere around 5th level spells (except for loosing the 1 0th level). I'm not sure why everyone keeps saying to get the Channel ability from either Spellsword or another PrC. I'm not sure what the real benefits are for it (granted, hitting someone and a fireball explodes on them is interesting, but ultimately deadly for me too) or I'm just too inexperienced with it to understand it. Well, I think I should expand on what I've said to begin with. The reason I'm making this character like this is DM request, he wanted me to play a fighter/sorcerer like I used to, which for me was using magic to do slight buffs (like shield and blur) throw some fireballs at them, then close in and mow them down. But with this party, they really need a healer of some sorts, my DM gave me the ability to have healing in this class, so I'm trying to keep it where I lose as few CL as possible so the healing ability will stay up with the party (bunch of fighters and a mage). That's why I can deal with losing a few spells per day but not the ability to cast certain level spells. Also he'll need to be able to run point in the group (they're followers, not really leaders) so the need for armor to hopefully survive an ambush, then he can pull back to do some blasting or stay in the middle and do what damage he can with his sword. So I guess him having to do multiple roles is the difficult part of this build plus his need to survive (deadly game, so far everyone has died at least once, most have died 2-4 times already and had to make new characters, which I'm trying to avoid). I hope that explains better and I'm not trying to be close-minded to the suggestions you give, it's just a kind of demanding role I'll be placed in
mellowship 06-27-04, 04:38 AM	Originally posted by SgiathatchTaren Ok, thanks mellow, I didn't know that, so I guess I'm back to using fighter again. The Battle Sorcerer doesn't hurt that much because of a concept my DM pointed out to me to let me add the healing domain spells to my spells known (QS by Mongoose I believe), and with Cha that high, I don't really loose spells per day until somewhere around 5th level spells (except for loosing the 1 0th level). Hrm. Sounds like a seriously juiced-up version of the Arcane Disciple feat from Complete Divine. It's not core, but hey, if your DM lets you use Mongoose stuff, more power to you. I'm not sure why everyone keeps saying to get the Channel ability from either Spellsword or another PrC. I'm not sure what the real benefits are for it (granted, hitting someone and a fireball explodes on them is interesting, but ultimately deadly for me too) or I'm just too inexperienced with it to understand it. Fun spells to channel with are single-target touch or ray spells that don't give saving throws. The Raumathari Battlemage's channeling is pretty weak, since it's limited in the spell levels you can use with it, but the Spellsword's channeling is awesome. What's really great about it for a sorcerer is that it gets around the increased casting time for spontaneous metamagic. Channeling a metamagicked spell uses a move action just like channeling a regular spell, rather than the full-round action it would take to cast a metamagicked spell. A good spell for Channeling is Vampiric Touch. Not only does it do a decent amount of damage, it gives you extra temporary hp. If you're attacking spellcasters, try Channeling a Maximized Empowered Touch of Idiocy. Ray of Enfeeblement and Enervation are also fun. Since your DM is letting you use healing spells, Channeling Heal makes for a nifty undead-killer. Well, I think I should expand on what I've said to begin with. The reason I'm making this character like this is DM request, he wanted me to play a fighter/sorcerer like I used to, which for me was using magic to do slight buffs (like shield and blur) throw some fireballs at them, then close in and mow them down. But with this party, they really need a healer of some sorts, my DM gave me the ability to have healing in this class, so I'm trying to keep it where I lose as few CL as possible so the healing ability will stay up with the party (bunch of fighters and a mage). That's why I can deal with losing a few spells per day but not the ability to cast certain level spells. Also he'll need to be able to run point in the group (they're followers, not really leaders) so the need for armor to hopefully survive an ambush, then he can pull back to do some blasting or stay in the middle and do what damage he can with his sword. So I guess him having to do multiple roles is the difficult part of this build plus his need to survive (deadly game, so far everyone has died at least once, most have died 2-4 times already and had to make new characters, which I'm trying to avoid). I hope that explains better and I'm not trying to be close-minded to the suggestions you give, it's just a kind of demanding role I'll be placed in Well, if you're serious about not losing too many caster levels, but want to make a reasonably tough Gish, then Fighter 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/Eldritch Knight 6/Sacred Exorcist 4 is a good way to go. Your 16 caster levels aren't the most you could have, but you end up with BAB +18 and the ability to turn undead (and thus, access to Divine feats). The progression would look something like so: 1 Fighter 1. Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative 2-5 Battle Sorcerer 1-4. Spell Penetration 6-10 Spellsword 1-5. Greater Spell Penetration, Empower Spell (Spellsword bonus), Arcane Strike 11-14 Eldritch Knight 1-4. Improved Toughness (EK bonus), Practiced Spellcaster 15-18 Sacred Exorcist 1-4. Divine Might, Divine Vigor 19-20 Eldritch Knight 5-6. The feats aren't really set in stone, though I'd say Power Attack, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Arcane Strike, Practiced Spellcaster, and Divine Might are must-haves. You could replace the Spell Penetration feats with whatever, or the Empower Spell with whatever metamagics float your boat, and the Divine Vigor with another Divine feat of your choice, without compromising this build. For instance, the Arcane Preparation/Quicken combo is really quite nice for a sorcerer, though it doesn't do anything for you until you can cast 5th level spells. Before that, Arcane Preparation and a Quicken metamagic rod will be of some use. The Spellsword levels are there not only for the Channel Spell, but because all Knowledge skills are class skills, which helps in getting the 10 ranks of (religion) and the 7 ranks of (planes) needed to qualify for Sacred Exorcist.