8th level Rogue "type" [Archive] - Wizards Community

8th level Rogue "type" [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Potlok
08-30-05, 01:56 PM Hi everybody! My last 8th level VoP Druid died because apparently my DM doesn't know about CR :S:S:S so I will be starting at 8th level and it has to be a rogue type character, don't know if I'll be having any money to start so all I would need help is for the build.

I have access to any book, included quintaessentials but not dragon mag.

I want to have a rogue type that has good skills but can also surprise the DM with some good combat or spell stuff.

Thank you in advance! :)
Tedly224
08-30-05, 02:15 PM I would recommend taking a look at the Build and guide FAQ stickie threads at the top of the forum for the information you're looking for.

In fact, in most every forum when you have a basic question like this, it's best to look there first.
Lilt
08-30-05, 03:19 PM The Quintessentials (or any other 3rd party supplements for that matter) aren't often discussed on these boards. I'd suggest that you read through those books yourself, and compare/contrast the abilities in them with suggestions you find here. If you don't feel up to the task, perhaps post vague details about the ability you're wondering about taking from the book and ask wether people here think it's worthwhile. From what I've seen, the quintessential series contains some quite powerful character options.
Potlok
08-30-05, 03:26 PM yeah, I've read some, but also I read the normal D&D books and yet I don't find those great min/max feats & PRC's that you guys make into strong builds :( I'll read more and post something interesting if I get there.

Thanks :P
Matt Neuman
08-30-05, 03:30 PM Think about what sort of Rogue you want to build.

Trap guy?

Big Sneak Attack Guy?

Stealth guy?

Face man guy?

Any of these can fill multiple roles, but it's best to pick an area you want to excel in and work from there.
Potlok
08-30-05, 03:34 PM definately trap finding and disabling guy, sry i didnt specify before, my DM LOOOOOOOOOVES to kill PC's with traps and I personally hate THAT! lol
Lilt
08-30-05, 03:56 PM Does a Chameleon character sound like what you might want?

Chameleon is a PrC from Races of Destiny and makes a character ultimately versatile. The idea is that you can use it to change what you're good at from one day to the next so, with a bit of thinking, you can target your opponent's weaknesses whilst minimising your own. One great strength of the chameleon is that when in the arcane/divine foci it can cast spells from any arcane/divine class. There are enough spell lists out there, scattered across various classes, PrCs, ETC, that you can get nice blasty spells whilst in divine focus and curative spells whilst in Arcane focus, plus access to many spells sonner than other classes might get them. Some examples are Heal as a 5th level spell through the Adept NPC class spell list, Polymorph and Scorching Ray as divine spells through the Adept list, Curative arcane spells ETC through Bard.

I am presently playing a Human Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Chameleon 1 in a game that's on-hold over the summer, and I can say that I'm very happy with his versatility. With 2 more levels of Chameleon, I can't imagine you being at a loss for tactical options, especially given the 2nd level chameleon ability (a bonus feat that you can change every day)
Potlok
08-30-05, 04:10 PM I saw the chameleon, but I really didnt know if the lack of skills could be worth the aptitude change and all that, seems cool and versatile, sure, but it is worth it....? I'll have to talk to my DM and see if I get some money so I can boost disable device and search to go through chameleon without the skill hit.

Thanks! :D
Matt Neuman
08-30-05, 04:26 PM Here is the skill monkey trap guy I'm playing in the CO Maure Castle online game.

He's level 12, but it should give you an idea of how I went about tackling this character type. Take a look at the combat notes section as it talks about skills/traps.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6177259&postcount=5

Hope this helps.
Lilt
08-30-05, 04:58 PM I saw the chameleon, but I really didnt know if the lack of skills could be worth the aptitude change and all that, seems cool and versatile, sure, but it is worth it....? I'll have to talk to my DM and see if I get some money so I can boost disable device and search to go through chameleon without the skill hit.It depends on what your intelligence is, really. I had intelligence 16 as a human, which still gave me 8 skill points per level as a chameleon. The skills that are probably best kept close to max are Search, Disable Divice, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, and Use Magic Device with remaining skill points going into a number of skills like Survival, Open Lock, Spellcraft, and Concentration. Yes, you may not have the full skill-monkey status of a rogue, but you still have a number of other skills that you bought up to reasonable levels (knowledges, bluff, disguise ETC) using your 12sp/level rogue and 10sp/level ranger levels.

This is besides the fact that if you put yourself in Stealth focus then you've actually got an unnamed +2 on Search and Disable Divice skills above what a rogue would have, you can take a feat in your floating slot that gives you 5 skill points to spend as you see fit that day, from next level you can choose an ability boost of +2 int to boost your trapmonkey skills, and from the level after that the unnamed bonuses from Stealth focus increase to +4.

Yes, having a base of 4 skill points per level feels like a bit of a cramp on your skill monkey abilities, but the fact that you have fewer skill points per level yet can out-trap-monkey a rogue has to be worth something.
Seeker of Truth
08-30-05, 05:17 PM Here is the skill monkey trap guy I'm playing in the CO Maure Castle online game.

http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6177259&postcount=5

An exalted warlock ... it just seems ... wrong ... :twitch:
carnivore
08-30-05, 05:19 PM how about getting the best of both worlds:

try this:
initially this at 8th lvl:
Human
Rogue 1/ Marshal 1/ Monk 2/ Cleric 1/ Jordain Vizier 3

eventually this:
Trapfinder/Skillmonkey
Human
Rogue 1/ Marshal 1/ Monk 2/ Cleric 1/ Jordain Vizier 5/ Chameleon 10

the Jordain Vizer is from Shining South:

it gives among other things:

8 Skill points per level
Arcane SR=10+JV lvl + Cha Mod
Arcane Nondetection
ability to counter spell without using spells
2x Int and Wis mod to ALL Int and Wis Skills
Cha to all saves VS Spl, Spl-like ability, and Supernatural powers

:D
Matt Neuman
08-30-05, 05:42 PM An exalted warlock ... it just seems ... wrong ...

heh.

It works though.

:schemes:
Potlok
08-31-05, 06:58 AM Is it worth it the Vizier since I loose 4 levels of high skills? also feels really stat intense, need good int, cha, con and average dex, wis, str

Potlok :)
Lilt
08-31-05, 07:21 AM Jordain Vizier seems nice, until you realise that it has a code of honor that forbids lies (bluff anyone?), spellcasting, or using items which emulate spellcasting (no UMDing wands/scrolls for you).

Plus, Jordain Viziers are rendered infertile as they enter the PrC :eek: :noway:
carnivore
08-31-05, 03:27 PM Jordain Vizier seems nice, until you realise that it has a code of honor that forbids lies (bluff anyone?), spellcasting, or using items which emulate spellcasting (no UMDing wands/scrolls for you).

Plus, Jordain Viziers are rendered infertile as they enter the PrC
true...but this is only until you finish the 5 lvl PrC.....then you can do whatever you like........but there might be consequences from other Jordain Vizers...but at least you lose NO class abilities.

BTW, how many times has infertility bothered anyone in a game where Miracles and Wishes exist ;)

Is it worth it the Vizier since I loose 4 levels of high skills? also feels really stat intense, need good int, cha, con and average dex, wis, str

Potlok
it does get 8 skill points per level........how are you losing out on High Skills?
it also is about the same Stat wise as a Rogue.....but gets to Double the Int bonus for Int Skills, and Wis bonus for Wis skills.

:D
Potlok
08-31-05, 03:38 PM not on the viziers levels, im talking about the marshal+monk+cleric levels

Potlok
carnivore
08-31-05, 03:51 PM marshal and monk are 4 skill points per lvl,....only cleric is a 2 point per lvl class.

it would only mean the loss of 18 skill points compared to a class like Rogue.......you wont even notice it.

:D
Lilt
08-31-05, 03:59 PM Those limitations still mean a lot if the character is part way through the PrC for the first two levels of play.

And I know it could be un-done but... Ow.
carnivore
08-31-05, 04:08 PM actually,IIRC....the limitations are only against ARCANE magic......not Divine or Psionics....so you can use magic, just not Arcane magic ;)

:D
g23armani
08-31-05, 04:10 PM How about a Human Rogue 3/Barbarian 4/Champion of Gwynharwyf 1

Take Able learner and Nymphs Kiss at level 1

You'll end up with 6 + int modifier skill points per day that you can choose from the rogue skill list.

Trap Sense and Divine Grace (next level) will help you with your saving throws.

This Build needs HIGH ability scores however...as there isn't really a dump stat.

Rage + Spells +d12 hd will give you that combat edge you wanted.

G23armani
Lilt
08-31-05, 04:18 PM actually,IIRC....the limitations are only against ARCANE magic......not Divine or Psionics....so you can use magic, just not Arcane magic ;) The section on the rearing of the character only talks about arcane magic, but in the section which the code of conduct is defined it says they must never use spells or use magic items which replicate spell effects.
carnivore
08-31-05, 04:41 PM hmmm.....well only 1 level to endure it for....when you get to the 5th level of the PrC.....start doing whatever you want...since you wont be taking any more levels of it anyway..and you dont lose the class abilities ;)

:D
Lilt
08-31-05, 04:52 PM hmmm.....well only 1 level to endure it for....when you get to the 5th level of the PrC.....start doing whatever you want...since you wont be taking any more levels of it anyway..and you dont lose the class abilities ;) Well, you've got the whole time that you're level 8 (class level 3), then the whole time that you're level 9 (class level 4), before you can finally take level 5 and get your nads back. That strikes me as being 2 levels of play where you're unable to 'use magic device' and without use of your Cleric abilities. Unless the DM is starting them part-way-through 8th level, that is.

:P

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Potlok 08-30-05, 01:56 PM	Hi everybody! My last 8th level VoP Druid died because apparently my DM doesn't know about CR :S:S:S so I will be starting at 8th level and it has to be a rogue type character, don't know if I'll be having any money to start so all I would need help is for the build. I have access to any book, included quintaessentials but not dragon mag. I want to have a rogue type that has good skills but can also surprise the DM with some good combat or spell stuff. Thank you in advance! :)
Tedly224 08-30-05, 02:15 PM	I would recommend taking a look at the Build and guide FAQ stickie threads at the top of the forum for the information you're looking for. In fact, in most every forum when you have a basic question like this, it's best to look there first.
Lilt 08-30-05, 03:19 PM	The Quintessentials (or any other 3rd party supplements for that matter) aren't often discussed on these boards. I'd suggest that you read through those books yourself, and compare/contrast the abilities in them with suggestions you find here. If you don't feel up to the task, perhaps post vague details about the ability you're wondering about taking from the book and ask wether people here think it's worthwhile. From what I've seen, the quintessential series contains some quite powerful character options.
Potlok 08-30-05, 03:26 PM	yeah, I've read some, but also I read the normal D&D books and yet I don't find those great min/max feats & PRC's that you guys make into strong builds :( I'll read more and post something interesting if I get there. Thanks :P
Matt Neuman 08-30-05, 03:30 PM	Think about what sort of Rogue you want to build. Trap guy? Big Sneak Attack Guy? Stealth guy? Face man guy? Any of these can fill multiple roles, but it's best to pick an area you want to excel in and work from there.
Potlok 08-30-05, 03:34 PM	definately trap finding and disabling guy, sry i didnt specify before, my DM LOOOOOOOOOVES to kill PC's with traps and I personally hate THAT! lol
Lilt 08-30-05, 03:56 PM	Does a Chameleon character sound like what you might want? Chameleon is a PrC from Races of Destiny and makes a character ultimately versatile. The idea is that you can use it to change what you're good at from one day to the next so, with a bit of thinking, you can target your opponent's weaknesses whilst minimising your own. One great strength of the chameleon is that when in the arcane/divine foci it can cast spells from any arcane/divine class. There are enough spell lists out there, scattered across various classes, PrCs, ETC, that you can get nice blasty spells whilst in divine focus and curative spells whilst in Arcane focus, plus access to many spells sonner than other classes might get them. Some examples are Heal as a 5th level spell through the Adept NPC class spell list, Polymorph and Scorching Ray as divine spells through the Adept list, Curative arcane spells ETC through Bard. I am presently playing a Human Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Chameleon 1 in a game that's on-hold over the summer, and I can say that I'm very happy with his versatility. With 2 more levels of Chameleon, I can't imagine you being at a loss for tactical options, especially given the 2nd level chameleon ability (a bonus feat that you can change every day)
Potlok 08-30-05, 04:10 PM	I saw the chameleon, but I really didnt know if the lack of skills could be worth the aptitude change and all that, seems cool and versatile, sure, but it is worth it....? I'll have to talk to my DM and see if I get some money so I can boost disable device and search to go through chameleon without the skill hit. Thanks! :D
Matt Neuman 08-30-05, 04:26 PM	Here is the skill monkey trap guy I'm playing in the CO Maure Castle online game. He's level 12, but it should give you an idea of how I went about tackling this character type. Take a look at the combat notes section as it talks about skills/traps. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6177259&postcount=5 Hope this helps.
Lilt 08-30-05, 04:58 PM	I saw the chameleon, but I really didnt know if the lack of skills could be worth the aptitude change and all that, seems cool and versatile, sure, but it is worth it....? I'll have to talk to my DM and see if I get some money so I can boost disable device and search to go through chameleon without the skill hit.It depends on what your intelligence is, really. I had intelligence 16 as a human, which still gave me 8 skill points per level as a chameleon. The skills that are probably best kept close to max are Search, Disable Divice, Hide, Move Silently, Tumble, and Use Magic Device with remaining skill points going into a number of skills like Survival, Open Lock, Spellcraft, and Concentration. Yes, you may not have the full skill-monkey status of a rogue, but you still have a number of other skills that you bought up to reasonable levels (knowledges, bluff, disguise ETC) using your 12sp/level rogue and 10sp/level ranger levels. This is besides the fact that if you put yourself in Stealth focus then you've actually got an unnamed +2 on Search and Disable Divice skills above what a rogue would have, you can take a feat in your floating slot that gives you 5 skill points to spend as you see fit that day, from next level you can choose an ability boost of +2 int to boost your trapmonkey skills, and from the level after that the unnamed bonuses from Stealth focus increase to +4. Yes, having a base of 4 skill points per level feels like a bit of a cramp on your skill monkey abilities, but the fact that you have fewer skill points per level yet can out-trap-monkey a rogue has to be worth something.
Seeker of Truth 08-30-05, 05:17 PM	Here is the skill monkey trap guy I'm playing in the CO Maure Castle online game. http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=6177259&postcount=5 An exalted warlock ... it just seems ... wrong ... :twitch:
carnivore 08-30-05, 05:19 PM	how about getting the best of both worlds: try this: initially this at 8th lvl: Human Rogue 1/ Marshal 1/ Monk 2/ Cleric 1/ Jordain Vizier 3 eventually this: Trapfinder/Skillmonkey Human Rogue 1/ Marshal 1/ Monk 2/ Cleric 1/ Jordain Vizier 5/ Chameleon 10 the Jordain Vizer is from Shining South: it gives among other things: 8 Skill points per level Arcane SR=10+JV lvl + Cha Mod Arcane Nondetection ability to counter spell without using spells 2x Int and Wis mod to ALL Int and Wis Skills Cha to all saves VS Spl, Spl-like ability, and Supernatural powers :D
Matt Neuman 08-30-05, 05:42 PM	An exalted warlock ... it just seems ... wrong ... heh. It works though. :schemes:
Potlok 08-31-05, 06:58 AM	Is it worth it the Vizier since I loose 4 levels of high skills? also feels really stat intense, need good int, cha, con and average dex, wis, str Potlok :)
Lilt 08-31-05, 07:21 AM	Jordain Vizier seems nice, until you realise that it has a code of honor that forbids lies (bluff anyone?), spellcasting, or using items which emulate spellcasting (no UMDing wands/scrolls for you). Plus, Jordain Viziers are rendered infertile as they enter the PrC :eek: :noway:
carnivore 08-31-05, 03:27 PM	Jordain Vizier seems nice, until you realise that it has a code of honor that forbids lies (bluff anyone?), spellcasting, or using items which emulate spellcasting (no UMDing wands/scrolls for you). Plus, Jordain Viziers are rendered infertile as they enter the PrC true...but this is only until you finish the 5 lvl PrC.....then you can do whatever you like........but there might be consequences from other Jordain Vizers...but at least you lose NO class abilities. BTW, how many times has infertility bothered anyone in a game where Miracles and Wishes exist ;) Is it worth it the Vizier since I loose 4 levels of high skills? also feels really stat intense, need good int, cha, con and average dex, wis, str Potlok it does get 8 skill points per level........how are you losing out on High Skills? it also is about the same Stat wise as a Rogue.....but gets to Double the Int bonus for Int Skills, and Wis bonus for Wis skills. :D
Potlok 08-31-05, 03:38 PM	not on the viziers levels, im talking about the marshal+monk+cleric levels Potlok
carnivore 08-31-05, 03:51 PM	marshal and monk are 4 skill points per lvl,....only cleric is a 2 point per lvl class. it would only mean the loss of 18 skill points compared to a class like Rogue.......you wont even notice it. :D
Lilt 08-31-05, 03:59 PM	Those limitations still mean a lot if the character is part way through the PrC for the first two levels of play. And I know it could be un-done but... Ow.
carnivore 08-31-05, 04:08 PM	actually,IIRC....the limitations are only against ARCANE magic......not Divine or Psionics....so you can use magic, just not Arcane magic ;) :D
g23armani 08-31-05, 04:10 PM	How about a Human Rogue 3/Barbarian 4/Champion of Gwynharwyf 1 Take Able learner and Nymphs Kiss at level 1 You'll end up with 6 + int modifier skill points per day that you can choose from the rogue skill list. Trap Sense and Divine Grace (next level) will help you with your saving throws. This Build needs HIGH ability scores however...as there isn't really a dump stat. Rage + Spells +d12 hd will give you that combat edge you wanted. G23armani
Lilt 08-31-05, 04:18 PM	actually,IIRC....the limitations are only against ARCANE magic......not Divine or Psionics....so you can use magic, just not Arcane magic ;) The section on the rearing of the character only talks about arcane magic, but in the section which the code of conduct is defined it says they must never use spells or use magic items which replicate spell effects.
carnivore 08-31-05, 04:41 PM	hmmm.....well only 1 level to endure it for....when you get to the 5th level of the PrC.....start doing whatever you want...since you wont be taking any more levels of it anyway..and you dont lose the class abilities ;) :D
Lilt 08-31-05, 04:52 PM	hmmm.....well only 1 level to endure it for....when you get to the 5th level of the PrC.....start doing whatever you want...since you wont be taking any more levels of it anyway..and you dont lose the class abilities ;) Well, you've got the whole time that you're level 8 (class level 3), then the whole time that you're level 9 (class level 4), before you can finally take level 5 and get your nads back. That strikes me as being 2 levels of play where you're unable to 'use magic device' and without use of your Cleric abilities. Unless the DM is starting them part-way-through 8th level, that is. :P