8th level starting, Changling... warshaper? [Archive] - Wizards Community

8th level starting, Changling... warshaper? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
villianousmorality
07-14-06, 09:37 AM Okay folks, here's the deal. My schedule at work has changed such that I'll be able to play in a game with my roommate and several other people starting this wednesday, for about a month. It's starting at 8th level, uses core and completes, and I'm fairly certain I'll be able to point at the Monster Manual 3 for a changling and get a yes, anything else will need approval and I'm not sure how lenient the DM will be. I'll be rolling stats, and am confident in getting good stats to work with. Here's the bare bones of a build, IE no stat modifiers added into anything. I'll have 27k starting gold, no higher than +2 enhancements on weapons and armor, and access to minor wonderous items I can afford.

Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warshaper 4
Changling

BAB +7/+2
Fort +10+2 resistance
Ref +1+2 resistance
Will +1+2 resistance
AC: (+7 breastplate, +dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection)

Items: Amulet of natural armor 2k, ring of protection 2k, +2 breastplate 4200, +2 greatsword 8050, gauntlets of ogre's power +2 4k, cloak of resistance +2 4k

Rage 3/day, Fast movement, Uncanny dodge, Morphic immunities, weapons, body, reach, healing

A little under 11k left to spend

Feats: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Extra Rage, Intimidating Rage, Improved initiative

All in all, a +4 to str and con before raging, reach with a greatsword, fast healing, immune to stun and crits.

Let me know what you think and any improvements I could do to the build. Feats, where my skills should lie, other than the obvious intimidate, what I should buy, all that jazz. Thanks in advance.
NoldorForce
07-14-06, 10:22 AM Throw in a level of monk. That way, you can route your iterative attacks to your feet (only the monk's version of IUS does this-the feat itself doesn't), leaving your hands free for the next trick. One of the biggest strengths of the warshaper class is Morphic Weapons, allowing you to gain multiple and potentially indefinite natural weapons. Even if you're limited to one natural weapon of each type (the wording is open to interpretation), you could still pick up over ten different natural weapons after a bit of searching in Monster Manuals for varying names. Look at my signature if you're instead limited to having an anatomical basis for each natural weapon.

By the time you're done, you won't need a +2 greatsword-just stick with your mountain of attacks (Multiattack is your friend) and grab a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists. Wielding a weapon with a changeling warshaper is only advisable if there's something special about the weapon that natural attacks can't do (such as the spiked/scorpion chain which has reach).

Additionally, your character has immunity to sneak attacks. While Morphic Immunities doesn;t say so, the sneak attack description states thatAny creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks.

Depending on whether you have the stats for it, you may want to ditch the breastplate and stick with a high Wisdom instead, given the above monk level.

The changeling warshaper combination is certainly a useful if unintended one, enough that I believe that WotC may want to rename the PrC as "changeling paragon".
Pinky's brain
07-14-06, 10:39 AM If you cast a spell on yourself multiple times with differrent effects only the last one remains in effect ... IMO the spell effect stacking rules apply to all magical effects.
NoldorForce
07-14-06, 01:07 PM If you cast a spell on yourself multiple times with differrent effects only the last one remains in effect ... IMO the spell effect stacking rules apply to all magical effects.The "only the last one remains in effect" clause is preceded by the word usually, and generally applies when a sequence of spells (identical or distinct) combine to make certain spells in the sequence irrelevant-for example, Timeless Body combined with effects applied during its duration makes them irrelevant.

Additionally, the PrC's flavor text ("It's not until the soldier you're fighting grows a tentacle and fangs..." [emphasis mine]) implies the ability to grow multiple natural weapons, as does the lack of a comment on multiple Morphic Weapons at a time. Finally, the last sentence in its description reads (partly) "A warshaper can change morphic weapons as often as it likes".

As above, my opinion on what is reasonable to permit under Morphic Weapons is to require the character to have an anatomical basis for the natural weapon-hence the dracha comment in my signature.
HelloRaptor
07-14-06, 01:18 PM Natural Weapons don't fall into the usual iterative attack bonuses, neh?

Regardless..

I'd suggest swapping out Improved Initiative for Destructive Rage, and Extra Rage for Steadfast Determination (I think that's what it's called).

This puts your Con bonus to Will saves instead of Wisdom (SD), and has you set to enter Frenzied Berserker at your next level. While it does net you only 1 Rage per day at that point, the first level of Frenzied Berserker also gives you 1 use of Frenzy. If you use them at the same time, that nets you a +10 bonus to strength, and some hard core hitting power. Continue up Frenzied Berserker while picking up Extra Rage/Frenzy, and grab Leap Attack asap. With reach, you can do a jumping charge and land a good 10 feet away from an enemy while still doing a crazy attack to damage ratio with Power Attack.
NoldorForce
07-14-06, 02:10 PM Having some way to pounce is always useful. There's a list here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=589526).
Pinky's brain
07-14-06, 03:00 PM The "only the last one remains in effect" clause is preceded by the word usuallyNoldorForce ... the PHB is the primary source, try checking it in there (Im talking about the Same Effect with Differing Results rule).

As for the flavour text, the warshaper is meant for creatures who have more potent types of shapeshift abilities than the changeling.
villianousmorality
07-14-06, 03:30 PM I'm going to play a whopping four games with this guy, I'm merely looking for a way to capitalize on the high strength. Frenzied Berserker's not really an option, as I don't particularly expect to level, and don't desire to kill the entire party before I leave, otherwise I'd have spent the other 11k on poison. Does anyone have suggestions that fit what I was asking for, things to spend my money on, or feats? Steadfast determination is the only real suggestion that fits that criteria. Destructive rage I don't think I'll find useful unless going for Frienzied Berserker. As for the multiweapon fighting... I don't really want to have to spend a great deal of time trying to convince the DM of anything, just kind of sit down and go. The reach with a greatsword sounds neat to me.
Abe Lincoln
07-14-06, 04:15 PM Okay, this might not be what you want at all but here I go:
Unless you're in love with it, I'd probably drop Intimidating rage and grab weapon focus greatsword. Why? Because I'd go from a +2 enchant to a +1 enchant and then either keen or an elemental damage (1d6 > 1, and keen with your str should just straight up HURT).

For items, I've got a couple favorites. Ring of sustence for 2.5k is beautiful because you can keep watch most the night and then sleep while the casters prepare their spells. Plus no more of that "food" or "drink" stuff to worry about. My DM throws lots of different monsters at us so I've gotten huge mileage out of Helm of comprehend languages. Pricey at 5.2k gold but it lets you know that the orc is shouting for his buddies to flank you. Heward's handy haversack at 2k is a steal, although with your str you probably dont need it. A +1 buckler isn't a bad idea for anyone. Just strap it on and if you're getting pummeled drop the greatsword and gain 2 ac. About 1k gold.

If there's a cleric in the party, buy 25 +1 spell storing shurikens (4k gold ish). Have the cleric cast the 3rd level inflict spell into them. Lots of pain in a short amount of time, although there is that pesky -4 because of non-proficiency.

Just some thoughts. Let me know if this isn't really the direction you want to go.
NoldorForce
07-14-06, 04:16 PM NoldorForce ... the PHB is the primary source, try checking it in there (Im talking about the Same Effect with Differing Results rule).I know what you're referring to...I'm referring to its transcription from the SRD. As I'd said, there's a note of "usually". Again, I refer you to the final sentence of the class feature's description.As for the flavour text, the warshaper is meant for creatures who have more potent types of shapeshift abilities than the changeling.That's a judgement call. However, considering what changelings are able to do, according to descriptions in various Eberron sources, I believe they're capable of the things the warshaper class description allows.
Pinky's brain
07-14-06, 05:05 PM Again, I refer you to the final sentence of the class feature's description.Sorry, I didn't notice that part of your arguement ... the fact that it uses the term "change" though doesn't do a whole lot of good for it.

Saying that when it says "change morphic weapons" it means you can change an existing set of morphic weapons which provide multiple attacks is much more of a stretch than to simply take "change" at face value ... everytime you use it you can change your morphic weapons (weapons can be plural like fangs, but they can only provide "a natural attack" of course).
kilroo
07-14-06, 07:17 PM I'm going to play a whopping four games with this guy...

In that case...I'm kinda tempted to suggest that you consider one of the following IF you can use the PHB2.

Knight 4/Warshaper 4 if you can't get away with either of the others

Knight 3/Fighter 1/Warshaper 4 if the fact that you're starting at 8th and not playing for long means the DM will let you start with this despite the fact that this build has been taking multiclassing experience penalties for four levels (if you do level up even with the penalties you're taking now, take Fighter and fix it)

or Knight 3/Fighter 2/Warshaper 3 if you don't mind giving up the fast healing.

Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Cleave, and then if you can get the fighter levels to squeeze them in Great Cleave and maybe something else. I'd either use or carry as backup a Guisarme or Ranseur so you can trip or disarm people if you need to. I'd recommend that you NOT be lawful. Be an ex-knight. It's simpler with that few Knight levels to give up your Knight's Challenge abilities than it is to follow a Knight's Code. Explain it in your backstory if need be. (If this is too cheesy for you, never mind, the code's not that bad.)

You are now the center of a mobile 20 foot radius Bulwark of Defense, which means your opponents treat that area as difficult terrain, which combined with your tendency to chop through a couple of them at a time (or trip them, or take their weapons away) makes anywhere near you a rather dangerous place to be. (You'll have to attack anyone who gets adjacent to you with your morphic weapons instead of your regular weapon, but hey.)

This is a slightly different direction to take the character, obviously, so if it's not your style no problem, but I just get a kick out of it.
villianousmorality
07-15-06, 01:47 PM Actually, the knight thing? That's good ****. That's really good ****. Yeah, I think I'm going to change some stuff, and do that. The knight's code doesn't bother me, and I was contemplating true neutral, or Lawful Neutral anyway. I'm going to play around with knight for a little bit, and probably post an updated skeleton.
kilroo
07-15-06, 11:28 PM Yeah, I like it. I'm hoping to play one sometime in a longer running campaign...I want to try to work some aberrant feats into it, mainly Inhuman Reach, and then down the line (admittedly WAY down the line) pick up Defensive Sweep. There are lots of fun ways to use this trick.

Of course, you get into some silliness with the reach rules, but hey.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
villianousmorality 07-14-06, 09:37 AM	Okay folks, here's the deal. My schedule at work has changed such that I'll be able to play in a game with my roommate and several other people starting this wednesday, for about a month. It's starting at 8th level, uses core and completes, and I'm fairly certain I'll be able to point at the Monster Manual 3 for a changling and get a yes, anything else will need approval and I'm not sure how lenient the DM will be. I'll be rolling stats, and am confident in getting good stats to work with. Here's the bare bones of a build, IE no stat modifiers added into anything. I'll have 27k starting gold, no higher than +2 enhancements on weapons and armor, and access to minor wonderous items I can afford. Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Warshaper 4 Changling BAB +7/+2 Fort +10+2 resistance Ref +1+2 resistance Will +1+2 resistance AC: (+7 breastplate, +dex, +1 natural, +1 deflection) Items: Amulet of natural armor 2k, ring of protection 2k, +2 breastplate 4200, +2 greatsword 8050, gauntlets of ogre's power +2 4k, cloak of resistance +2 4k Rage 3/day, Fast movement, Uncanny dodge, Morphic immunities, weapons, body, reach, healing A little under 11k left to spend Feats: Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Extra Rage, Intimidating Rage, Improved initiative All in all, a +4 to str and con before raging, reach with a greatsword, fast healing, immune to stun and crits. Let me know what you think and any improvements I could do to the build. Feats, where my skills should lie, other than the obvious intimidate, what I should buy, all that jazz. Thanks in advance.
NoldorForce 07-14-06, 10:22 AM	Throw in a level of monk. That way, you can route your iterative attacks to your feet (only the monk's version of IUS does this-the feat itself doesn't), leaving your hands free for the next trick. One of the biggest strengths of the warshaper class is Morphic Weapons, allowing you to gain multiple and potentially indefinite natural weapons. Even if you're limited to one natural weapon of each type (the wording is open to interpretation), you could still pick up over ten different natural weapons after a bit of searching in Monster Manuals for varying names. Look at my signature if you're instead limited to having an anatomical basis for each natural weapon. By the time you're done, you won't need a +2 greatsword-just stick with your mountain of attacks (Multiattack is your friend) and grab a +1 Amulet of Mighty Fists. Wielding a weapon with a changeling warshaper is only advisable if there's something special about the weapon that natural attacks can't do (such as the spiked/scorpion chain which has reach). Additionally, your character has immunity to sneak attacks. While Morphic Immunities doesn;t say so, the sneak attack description states thatAny creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. Depending on whether you have the stats for it, you may want to ditch the breastplate and stick with a high Wisdom instead, given the above monk level. The changeling warshaper combination is certainly a useful if unintended one, enough that I believe that WotC may want to rename the PrC as "changeling paragon".
Pinky's brain 07-14-06, 10:39 AM	If you cast a spell on yourself multiple times with differrent effects only the last one remains in effect ... IMO the spell effect stacking rules apply to all magical effects.
NoldorForce 07-14-06, 01:07 PM	If you cast a spell on yourself multiple times with differrent effects only the last one remains in effect ... IMO the spell effect stacking rules apply to all magical effects.The "only the last one remains in effect" clause is preceded by the word usually, and generally applies when a sequence of spells (identical or distinct) combine to make certain spells in the sequence irrelevant-for example, Timeless Body combined with effects applied during its duration makes them irrelevant. Additionally, the PrC's flavor text ("It's not until the soldier you're fighting grows a tentacle and fangs..." [emphasis mine]) implies the ability to grow multiple natural weapons, as does the lack of a comment on multiple Morphic Weapons at a time. Finally, the last sentence in its description reads (partly) "A warshaper can change morphic weapons as often as it likes". As above, my opinion on what is reasonable to permit under Morphic Weapons is to require the character to have an anatomical basis for the natural weapon-hence the dracha comment in my signature.
HelloRaptor 07-14-06, 01:18 PM	Natural Weapons don't fall into the usual iterative attack bonuses, neh? Regardless.. I'd suggest swapping out Improved Initiative for Destructive Rage, and Extra Rage for Steadfast Determination (I think that's what it's called). This puts your Con bonus to Will saves instead of Wisdom (SD), and has you set to enter Frenzied Berserker at your next level. While it does net you only 1 Rage per day at that point, the first level of Frenzied Berserker also gives you 1 use of Frenzy. If you use them at the same time, that nets you a +10 bonus to strength, and some hard core hitting power. Continue up Frenzied Berserker while picking up Extra Rage/Frenzy, and grab Leap Attack asap. With reach, you can do a jumping charge and land a good 10 feet away from an enemy while still doing a crazy attack to damage ratio with Power Attack.
NoldorForce 07-14-06, 02:10 PM	Having some way to pounce is always useful. There's a list here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=589526).
Pinky's brain 07-14-06, 03:00 PM	The "only the last one remains in effect" clause is preceded by the word usuallyNoldorForce ... the PHB is the primary source, try checking it in there (Im talking about the Same Effect with Differing Results rule). As for the flavour text, the warshaper is meant for creatures who have more potent types of shapeshift abilities than the changeling.
villianousmorality 07-14-06, 03:30 PM	I'm going to play a whopping four games with this guy, I'm merely looking for a way to capitalize on the high strength. Frenzied Berserker's not really an option, as I don't particularly expect to level, and don't desire to kill the entire party before I leave, otherwise I'd have spent the other 11k on poison. Does anyone have suggestions that fit what I was asking for, things to spend my money on, or feats? Steadfast determination is the only real suggestion that fits that criteria. Destructive rage I don't think I'll find useful unless going for Frienzied Berserker. As for the multiweapon fighting... I don't really want to have to spend a great deal of time trying to convince the DM of anything, just kind of sit down and go. The reach with a greatsword sounds neat to me.
Abe Lincoln 07-14-06, 04:15 PM	Okay, this might not be what you want at all but here I go: Unless you're in love with it, I'd probably drop Intimidating rage and grab weapon focus greatsword. Why? Because I'd go from a +2 enchant to a +1 enchant and then either keen or an elemental damage (1d6 > 1, and keen with your str should just straight up HURT). For items, I've got a couple favorites. Ring of sustence for 2.5k is beautiful because you can keep watch most the night and then sleep while the casters prepare their spells. Plus no more of that "food" or "drink" stuff to worry about. My DM throws lots of different monsters at us so I've gotten huge mileage out of Helm of comprehend languages. Pricey at 5.2k gold but it lets you know that the orc is shouting for his buddies to flank you. Heward's handy haversack at 2k is a steal, although with your str you probably dont need it. A +1 buckler isn't a bad idea for anyone. Just strap it on and if you're getting pummeled drop the greatsword and gain 2 ac. About 1k gold. If there's a cleric in the party, buy 25 +1 spell storing shurikens (4k gold ish). Have the cleric cast the 3rd level inflict spell into them. Lots of pain in a short amount of time, although there is that pesky -4 because of non-proficiency. Just some thoughts. Let me know if this isn't really the direction you want to go.
NoldorForce 07-14-06, 04:16 PM	NoldorForce ... the PHB is the primary source, try checking it in there (Im talking about the Same Effect with Differing Results rule).I know what you're referring to...I'm referring to its transcription from the SRD. As I'd said, there's a note of "usually". Again, I refer you to the final sentence of the class feature's description.As for the flavour text, the warshaper is meant for creatures who have more potent types of shapeshift abilities than the changeling.That's a judgement call. However, considering what changelings are able to do, according to descriptions in various Eberron sources, I believe they're capable of the things the warshaper class description allows.
Pinky's brain 07-14-06, 05:05 PM	Again, I refer you to the final sentence of the class feature's description.Sorry, I didn't notice that part of your arguement ... the fact that it uses the term "change" though doesn't do a whole lot of good for it. Saying that when it says "change morphic weapons" it means you can change an existing set of morphic weapons which provide multiple attacks is much more of a stretch than to simply take "change" at face value ... everytime you use it you can change your morphic weapons (weapons can be plural like fangs, but they can only provide "a natural attack" of course).
kilroo 07-14-06, 07:17 PM	I'm going to play a whopping four games with this guy... In that case...I'm kinda tempted to suggest that you consider one of the following IF you can use the PHB2. Knight 4/Warshaper 4 if you can't get away with either of the others Knight 3/Fighter 1/Warshaper 4 if the fact that you're starting at 8th and not playing for long means the DM will let you start with this despite the fact that this build has been taking multiclassing experience penalties for four levels (if you do level up even with the penalties you're taking now, take Fighter and fix it) or Knight 3/Fighter 2/Warshaper 3 if you don't mind giving up the fast healing. Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Cleave, and then if you can get the fighter levels to squeeze them in Great Cleave and maybe something else. I'd either use or carry as backup a Guisarme or Ranseur so you can trip or disarm people if you need to. I'd recommend that you NOT be lawful. Be an ex-knight. It's simpler with that few Knight levels to give up your Knight's Challenge abilities than it is to follow a Knight's Code. Explain it in your backstory if need be. (If this is too cheesy for you, never mind, the code's not that bad.) You are now the center of a mobile 20 foot radius Bulwark of Defense, which means your opponents treat that area as difficult terrain, which combined with your tendency to chop through a couple of them at a time (or trip them, or take their weapons away) makes anywhere near you a rather dangerous place to be. (You'll have to attack anyone who gets adjacent to you with your morphic weapons instead of your regular weapon, but hey.) This is a slightly different direction to take the character, obviously, so if it's not your style no problem, but I just get a kick out of it.
villianousmorality 07-15-06, 01:47 PM	Actually, the knight thing? That's good **. That's really good **. Yeah, I think I'm going to change some stuff, and do that. The knight's code doesn't bother me, and I was contemplating true neutral, or Lawful Neutral anyway. I'm going to play around with knight for a little bit, and probably post an updated skeleton.
kilroo 07-15-06, 11:28 PM	Yeah, I like it. I'm hoping to play one sometime in a longer running campaign...I want to try to work some aberrant feats into it, mainly Inhuman Reach, and then down the line (admittedly WAY down the line) pick up Defensive Sweep. There are lots of fun ways to use this trick. Of course, you get into some silliness with the reach rules, but hey.