9th level arcane and divine [Archive] - Wizards Community

9th level arcane and divine [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jgjob1288
04-27-06, 01:56 PM I've done some searching, and I haven't found any decent builds that can cast 9th level arcane and divine spells before reaching epic level. Is it possible?

Can anyone help me out, or at least point me in the right direction? Thanks

Edit:
Also, not to be picky, but It'd be really great if the arcane aspect of it were like the wizard or archivist. So essentially, I want a build that can cast pretty much everything under the sun.
Tenken
04-27-06, 02:22 PM Wizard3/Druid3/Mystic Theurge4/Arcane Hierophant10 (progression: Wizard3/Druid3/Mystic Theurge2/Arcane Hierophant10/Mystic Theurge2)
JulesCARV
04-27-06, 02:35 PM You could try to do... hm... stuff with the Ur-Priest, Blighter, or Apostle of Peace, and the Sublime Chord, mixing them with dual-progression class for 9 levels (mystic theurge, fochlucan lyrist, arcane hierophant, whatever).
ChrisAsmadi
04-27-06, 02:47 PM Bard 7/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8

Gets 8th level Bardic Casting, 10th level Sublime Chord casting and 10th level Sublime Chord casting. And for the icing on top, Telepathy.
GDarius
04-27-06, 02:56 PM Wizard 10/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8
or
Wizard 9/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8

Gives you 9th level arcane and divine spells by level 20, with a CL 18 for arcane spells and a CL 19 (or CL 11, depending on how you split those hairs) for Divine Spells. You also have the ability to rebuke undead.

The downsides: you must be evil, you don't have spontaneous healing or inflicting, and you need a high WIS and INT to make this work well. Also, you have to get 6 ranks in bluff as cross-class skills, which takes until level 9.
Poder Miserável
04-27-06, 03:48 PM you can always get Practiced spellcaster twice for optimal caster level results so a wizard3/druid3/MT4/Arcanehierophant7 already has 17th caster level on both arcane and divine on ECL 17 ;)
swanyusd
04-27-06, 04:13 PM If you check out hte "ultimate gish" competition link at the top of the page, go to the actual competition. Caelic has a build in there with 9th lvl arcane and divine w/BAB +16. Pretty impressive stuff.
Caelic
04-27-06, 04:30 PM you can always get Practiced spellcaster twice for optimal caster level results so a wizard3/druid3/MT4/Arcanehierophant7 already has 17th caster level on both arcane and divine on ECL 17 ;)

Yes, but what the build doesn't have is 9th level spells. Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level, not your spells per day.

While I remain fond of the Ur-Singer (which has already been listed,) the build I'm currently playing with is this:

Illumian (UurKrau) Bard 2/Druid 4/Arcane Hierophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

This is the 9th level arcane/9th level divine/16 BAB build mentioned. It relies on the Improved Krau feat to enter both Arcane Hierophant and Sublime Chord earlier than would otherwise be possible. The resulting build's arcane progression is a bit odd--you have a gap where your third level spells should be--but does get 9th level sublime chord and druid spells.
Analysis
04-27-06, 04:57 PM ... the Bamboo Spirit Folk (for Trackless Step) Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Arcane Hierophant 4 which gets CL 17/17 arcane/divine casting and can know, quite literally, every spell in the game. Also, INT is your casting stat for both classes.
JulesCARV
04-27-06, 05:10 PM Illumian (UurKrau) Bard 2/Druid 4/Arcane Hierophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

So... how do you get Evasion? Also, how do you qualify for Sublime Chord without 3rd level arcane spells?
NineInchNall
04-27-06, 05:15 PM Improved Krau lets him cast two of his 2nd level spells as 3rd level. I don't know how he's getting evasion. Maybe a ring.
Caelic
04-27-06, 05:28 PM So... how do you get Evasion? Also, how do you qualify for Sublime Chord without 3rd level arcane spells?

As mentioned, Improved Krau gives me the third level spells; Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra net me Evasion (and Uncanny Dodge as a bonus.)
jgjob1288
04-27-06, 06:15 PM ... the Bamboo Spirit Folk (for Trackless Step) Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Arcane Hierophant 4 which gets CL 17/17 arcane/divine casting and can know, quite literally, every spell in the game. Also, INT is your casting stat for both classes.

I like this one. The only problem I have with it is the Arcane Hierophant. It doesn't really fit IMO with the archivist. Is there any other class or PrC that would fit any better? Any maybe allow the race to not be confined.
Caelic
04-27-06, 06:26 PM Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10--the iconic AH build. Works with any race, 9th level arcane and divine. No muss, no fuss, no controversy.
jgjob1288
04-27-06, 06:54 PM Thats good too, but it is possible get something like that with the Archivist instead of druid, but without the race requirement?
Caelic
04-27-06, 06:56 PM Not if you want ninth level casting in both classes, no. I'm pretty sure I could kludge up SOME kind of build that'd give ninth level Archivist spells and ninth level Sublime Chord spells, but it'd be awkward as all get-out and probably not very playable.
Tenken
04-27-06, 07:26 PM Yes, but what the build doesn't have is 9th level spells. Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level, not your spells per day.

I'm confused. 17th level in both wiz and druid means that they get 9th level spells. Why do you say that they don't?
fnord
04-27-06, 07:39 PM I'm confused. 17th level in both wiz and druid means that they get 9th level spells. Why do you say that they don't?
Caster Level 17, not spellcasting level 17. Practiced Spellcaster increases caster level (and thus duration, range, SR penetration, etc.) but doesn't get you new spells per day.
Caelic
04-27-06, 08:07 PM And before someone says, "Well, how do you know they don't mean to increase your spells?"--we know that because the feat explicitly says so.

This feat does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It increases your caster level only, which would help you penetrate spell resistance and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.
psly4mne
04-27-06, 10:15 PM Archivist/Sublime Chord?

BambooSpiritFolk Bard 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 6/Arcane Heirophant 1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Heirophant +9 (using Sanctum Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge).
18th level Archivist casting, 10th level Sublime Chord casting, 8th level Bard casting. Mix in Practiced Spellcaster as desired.
fnord
04-27-06, 11:09 PM Archivist/Sublime Chord?

BambooSpiritFolk Bard 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 6/Arcane Heirophant 1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Heirophant +9 (using Sanctum Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge).

I think the point was to avoid having to be a Bamboo Spirit Folk. But hey, it's an interesting build.
psly4mne
04-27-06, 11:43 PM If you don't mind being an elf and taking a slightly less good build,
Bard 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 4/Geomancer 1/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Heirophant 1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Heirophant +9 (using Sanctum Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge and Sublime Chord)
17th level Archivist casting, 10th level Sublime Chord, 6th level Bard
Analysis
04-28-06, 03:17 PM I like this one. The only problem I have with it is the Arcane Hierophant. It doesn't really fit IMO with the archivist. Is there any other class or PrC that would fit any better? Any maybe allow the race to not be confined.

I would interpret the Arcane Hierophant in this build as something of a natural world researcher; interested in the elements, plants and animals but from a scientific rather than religious perspective. Your Archivist spells might be mostly Druid spells, making you some sort of Archivist of Nature.

As for the race, I believe the only other way save Druid is to be an elf or half-elf, then take a level of Wildrunner before entering AH (though this means losing 9th level spells until level 21). If you find another solution, please let me know.
psly4mne
04-28-06, 04:57 PM As for the race, I believe the only other way save Druid is to be an elf or half-elf, then take a level of Wildrunner before entering AH (though this means losing 9th level spells until level 21). If you find another solution, please let me know.The above build with Wildrunner gets 9th level Archivist and Sublime Chord spells as a (half-)elf
Analysis
04-28-06, 05:22 PM The above build with Wildrunner gets 9th level Archivist and Sublime Chord spells as a (half-)elf

True. Its only weakness (subjectively) is that the arcane casting (bard + sublime chord) has a limit to known spells, unlike wizard casting.
fnord
04-28-06, 05:31 PM True. Its only weakness (subjectively) is that the arcane casting (bard + sublime chord) has a limit to known spells, unlike wizard casting.
So Bamboo Spirit Folk appears to be the only way to get Archivist/Wizard 9th/9th spells.
psly4mne
04-28-06, 05:50 PM Illumian Bard 1 / Archivist 1 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge 7 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10
Needs Improved Sigil (Krau), Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots), and Open Least Chakra (Feet) (3 feats total) to qualify.
18th level Wizard and Archivist casting.
fnord
04-28-06, 06:12 PM Illumian Bard 1 / Archivist 1 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge 7 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10
Needs Improved Sigil (Krau), Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots), and Open Least Chakra (Feet) (3 feats total) to qualify.
18th level Wizard and Archivist casting.
I stand corrected. You're good. You should also need Polyglot to qualify for Fochluran Lyrist, though, for a total of 4 feats.
psly4mne
04-28-06, 09:08 PM I stand corrected. You're good. You should also need Polyglot to qualify for Fochluran Lyrist, though, for a total of 4 feats.
If you RP it right, you can avoid the extra expenditure. I bet there are plenty of Blighters out there who would gladly teach you Druidic for a nickel, just out of spite. PH states that a Druid can lose druidic status for teaching a non-Druid Druidic. It stands to reason that it is possible to learn Druidic as a non-Druid.
Caelic
04-28-06, 09:37 PM If you RP it right, you can avoid the extra expenditure. I bet there are plenty of Blighters out there who would gladly teach you Druidic for a nickel, just out of spite. PH states that a Druid can lose druidic status for teaching a non-Druid Druidic. It stands to reason that it is possible to learn Druidic as a non-Druid.

I'm sorry, I'm REALLY tired of hearing, "Oh, just roleplay running down the street to the local Blighter!" It's not roleplaying; it's an attempt to get by a requirement without paying anything for it. And, strictly by RAW, it doesn't work (although this is certainly one of those cases where the rules contradict common sense.) Speaking Druidic is a class ability of the Druid, and is technically lost when he becomes an ex-druid.
AvaronGansdell
04-28-06, 09:47 PM with archivist there really isent a whole lot of reasons to want to mix arcane into the character. with access to every cleric, druid, ranger, paladin, exalted, and domain spell you can learn to cast basicly any spell in D&D. Domain spells alone net you 70% of the wizards spell list.

but the wizard/druid/MT/Hirophant is a solid build and besides with only 3 levels in the bace class all you really get is there casting system. and in MT type builds I think its good to have atleast one half no reliant on spellbooks inacse something goes horribly wrong.
psly4mne
04-28-06, 10:11 PM I'm sorry, I'm REALLY tired of hearing, "Oh, just roleplay running down the street to the local Blighter!" It's not roleplaying; it's an attempt to get by a requirement without paying anything for it. And, strictly by RAW, it doesn't work (although this is certainly one of those cases where the rules contradict common sense.) Speaking Druidic is a class ability of the Druid, and is technically lost when he becomes an ex-druid.
Like it or not, it's what the Player's Handbook says. If you don't like it, you can mix in a level of Druid (in place of a level of Mystic Theurge), dropping the final Wiz and Arch levels to 17. Or you can pay for a permanent Tongues. Or you can shape Soulspeaker Circlet and bind it to your Crown chakra (that would require either a flaw or Psychic Reformation in the above build).

However, that is not really required. Fochlucan Lyrist requires the skill Speak Language (Druidic). Speak Language is a class skill for Bards. Your DM might require you to actually have someone to learn from (hence the local Blighter), but that is in the same boat as not allowing you to take ranks in Profession (Sailor) while living in the middle of the desert - not RAW.
Caelic
04-28-06, 10:16 PM Like it or not, it's what the Player's Handbook says.

...and, lo, as always, "It's what the Player's Handbook says" trumps "It makes sense."

Siiigh. Nevermind. I forgot; the almighty RAW must be worshipped. Praise the almighty RAW.

I'm off to make my eight thousand GP use-activated item of True Strike.
NineInchNall
04-28-06, 10:16 PM I'm sorry, I'm REALLY tired of hearing, "Oh, just roleplay running down the street to the local Blighter!" It's not roleplaying; it's an attempt to get by a requirement without paying anything for it. And, strictly by RAW, it doesn't work (although this is certainly one of those cases where the rules contradict common sense.) Speaking Druidic is a class ability of the Druid, and is technically lost when he becomes an ex-druid.

Actually, according to the SRD the Druid's ability to speak Druidic comes from getting Druidic as a bonus language. *shrug*
psly4mne
04-28-06, 10:29 PM ...and, lo, as always, "It's what the Player's Handbook says" trumps "It makes sense."Can you explain exactly how it is that a Druid can teach Druidic to a non-Druid (as the Player's Handbook says), but non-Druids can't learn Druidic?

NineInchNall, that is true also. Speaking a language is not a class feature.

Anyway, if it bugs you so much, use one of the three solutions in my above post (2 of which don't even lose another caster level). I also technically could have used a Ring of Evasion for the Evasion requirement, but I like the Impulse Boots solution better.
Caelic
04-28-06, 10:34 PM Can you explain to me exactly how it is that a Druid would teach Druidic to a non-Druid, given that by doing so he's going to lose all his abilities?

I'm certainly not going to grouse about the Impulse Boots solution, given that, AFAIK, I was the first one on the boards (one of the first, at any rate) to use it.

The whole hand-waving, "We'll just assume that he learns Druidic somewhere or other" approach annoys me, though; I'll admit it. I think it's silly to have a character enter what's essentially a Druidic order by consorting with the enemies of that order.

Yes, you can justify it by RAW. You can also justify 8000 gp continuous True Strike items by RAW--hence my above comment.

RAW isn't all it's cracked up to be.
psly4mne
04-28-06, 10:51 PM Can you explain to me exactly how it is that a Druid would teach Druidic to a non-Druid, given that by doing so he's going to lose all his abilities?Nothing a little Atonement wont fix... ;)

The whole hand-waving, "We'll just assume that he learns Druidic somewhere or other" approach annoys me, though; I'll admit it. I think it's silly to have a character enter what's essentially a Druidic order by consorting with the enemies of that order.I have to agree with you here. Many people here (myself included) have a tendency to forget that there is an organization associated with a prestige class. We tend to wave such things off as "RP requirements." That said, there are two ways to get into the Lyrists as a non-Druid: major deception (and probably evilness, and likely association with Blighters) and ridiculously contrived circumstances (unlikely to occur in a real game).
The first is certainly possible if you don't mind the added burden of deception. It is helped along by the presence of Druid spells and Polymorph on the Archivist "list."
The second is not so practical. Have your character raised among Druids, and take Speak Language (Druidic) as a skill at first level. Or some other such contrivance.

Alternatively, relegate the Evasion requirement to a ring and bind Soulspeaker Circlet to the Crown chakra. Or get permanent Tongues. There are ways around the requirement.

EDIT: I noticed my favorite simplistic dual-casters haven't shown up on this thread.
Illumian[Aeshkrau] Drd 3/Wiz 1/MT 4/AH 10/MT +2 (Improved Krau)
BambooSpiritFolk Drd 2/Wiz 1/MT 6/AH 10/MT +1 (Sanctum Spell)

The second has an extra level of Wizard casting, while the first has an extra level of Wildshape and LOTS of spell slots thanks to Wildshape + Aeshkrau

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jgjob1288 04-27-06, 01:56 PM	I've done some searching, and I haven't found any decent builds that can cast 9th level arcane and divine spells before reaching epic level. Is it possible? Can anyone help me out, or at least point me in the right direction? Thanks Edit: Also, not to be picky, but It'd be really great if the arcane aspect of it were like the wizard or archivist. So essentially, I want a build that can cast pretty much everything under the sun.
Tenken 04-27-06, 02:22 PM	Wizard3/Druid3/Mystic Theurge4/Arcane Hierophant10 (progression: Wizard3/Druid3/Mystic Theurge2/Arcane Hierophant10/Mystic Theurge2)
JulesCARV 04-27-06, 02:35 PM	You could try to do... hm... stuff with the Ur-Priest, Blighter, or Apostle of Peace, and the Sublime Chord, mixing them with dual-progression class for 9 levels (mystic theurge, fochlucan lyrist, arcane hierophant, whatever).
ChrisAsmadi 04-27-06, 02:47 PM	Bard 7/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 2/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8 Gets 8th level Bardic Casting, 10th level Sublime Chord casting and 10th level Sublime Chord casting. And for the icing on top, Telepathy.
GDarius 04-27-06, 02:56 PM	Wizard 10/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8 or Wizard 9/ Mindbender 1/ Ur-Priest 2/ Mystic Theurge 8 Gives you 9th level arcane and divine spells by level 20, with a CL 18 for arcane spells and a CL 19 (or CL 11, depending on how you split those hairs) for Divine Spells. You also have the ability to rebuke undead. The downsides: you must be evil, you don't have spontaneous healing or inflicting, and you need a high WIS and INT to make this work well. Also, you have to get 6 ranks in bluff as cross-class skills, which takes until level 9.
Poder Miserável 04-27-06, 03:48 PM	you can always get Practiced spellcaster twice for optimal caster level results so a wizard3/druid3/MT4/Arcanehierophant7 already has 17th caster level on both arcane and divine on ECL 17 ;)
swanyusd 04-27-06, 04:13 PM	If you check out hte "ultimate gish" competition link at the top of the page, go to the actual competition. Caelic has a build in there with 9th lvl arcane and divine w/BAB +16. Pretty impressive stuff.
Caelic 04-27-06, 04:30 PM	you can always get Practiced spellcaster twice for optimal caster level results so a wizard3/druid3/MT4/Arcanehierophant7 already has 17th caster level on both arcane and divine on ECL 17 ;) Yes, but what the build doesn't have is 9th level spells. Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level, not your spells per day. While I remain fond of the Ur-Singer (which has already been listed,) the build I'm currently playing with is this: Illumian (UurKrau) Bard 2/Druid 4/Arcane Hierophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9 This is the 9th level arcane/9th level divine/16 BAB build mentioned. It relies on the Improved Krau feat to enter both Arcane Hierophant and Sublime Chord earlier than would otherwise be possible. The resulting build's arcane progression is a bit odd--you have a gap where your third level spells should be--but does get 9th level sublime chord and druid spells.
Analysis 04-27-06, 04:57 PM	... the Bamboo Spirit Folk (for Trackless Step) Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Arcane Hierophant 4 which gets CL 17/17 arcane/divine casting and can know, quite literally, every spell in the game. Also, INT is your casting stat for both classes.
JulesCARV 04-27-06, 05:10 PM	Illumian (UurKrau) Bard 2/Druid 4/Arcane Hierophant 4/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 9 So... how do you get Evasion? Also, how do you qualify for Sublime Chord without 3rd level arcane spells?
NineInchNall 04-27-06, 05:15 PM	Improved Krau lets him cast two of his 2nd level spells as 3rd level. I don't know how he's getting evasion. Maybe a ring.
Caelic 04-27-06, 05:28 PM	So... how do you get Evasion? Also, how do you qualify for Sublime Chord without 3rd level arcane spells? As mentioned, Improved Krau gives me the third level spells; Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra net me Evasion (and Uncanny Dodge as a bonus.)
jgjob1288 04-27-06, 06:15 PM	... the Bamboo Spirit Folk (for Trackless Step) Wizard 3/Archivist 3/Mystic Theurge 10/Arcane Hierophant 4 which gets CL 17/17 arcane/divine casting and can know, quite literally, every spell in the game. Also, INT is your casting stat for both classes. I like this one. The only problem I have with it is the Arcane Hierophant. It doesn't really fit IMO with the archivist. Is there any other class or PrC that would fit any better? Any maybe allow the race to not be confined.
Caelic 04-27-06, 06:26 PM	Druid 3/Wizard 3/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10--the iconic AH build. Works with any race, 9th level arcane and divine. No muss, no fuss, no controversy.
jgjob1288 04-27-06, 06:54 PM	Thats good too, but it is possible get something like that with the Archivist instead of druid, but without the race requirement?
Caelic 04-27-06, 06:56 PM	Not if you want ninth level casting in both classes, no. I'm pretty sure I could kludge up SOME kind of build that'd give ninth level Archivist spells and ninth level Sublime Chord spells, but it'd be awkward as all get-out and probably not very playable.
Tenken 04-27-06, 07:26 PM	Yes, but what the build doesn't have is 9th level spells. Practiced Spellcaster increases your caster level, not your spells per day. I'm confused. 17th level in both wiz and druid means that they get 9th level spells. Why do you say that they don't?
fnord 04-27-06, 07:39 PM	I'm confused. 17th level in both wiz and druid means that they get 9th level spells. Why do you say that they don't? Caster Level 17, not spellcasting level 17. Practiced Spellcaster increases caster level (and thus duration, range, SR penetration, etc.) but doesn't get you new spells per day.
Caelic 04-27-06, 08:07 PM	And before someone says, "Well, how do you know they don't mean to increase your spells?"--we know that because the feat explicitly says so. This feat does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It increases your caster level only, which would help you penetrate spell resistance and increase the duration and other effects of your spells.
psly4mne 04-27-06, 10:15 PM	Archivist/Sublime Chord? BambooSpiritFolk Bard 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 6/Arcane Heirophant 1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Heirophant +9 (using Sanctum Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge). 18th level Archivist casting, 10th level Sublime Chord casting, 8th level Bard casting. Mix in Practiced Spellcaster as desired.
fnord 04-27-06, 11:09 PM	Archivist/Sublime Chord? BambooSpiritFolk Bard 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 6/Arcane Heirophant 1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Heirophant +9 (using Sanctum Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge). I think the point was to avoid having to be a Bamboo Spirit Folk. But hey, it's an interesting build.
psly4mne 04-27-06, 11:43 PM	If you don't mind being an elf and taking a slightly less good build, Bard 1/Archivist 2/Mystic Theurge 4/Geomancer 1/Wildrunner 1/Arcane Heirophant 1/Sublime Chord 1/Arcane Heirophant +9 (using Sanctum Spell to qualify for Mystic Theurge and Sublime Chord) 17th level Archivist casting, 10th level Sublime Chord, 6th level Bard
Analysis 04-28-06, 03:17 PM	I like this one. The only problem I have with it is the Arcane Hierophant. It doesn't really fit IMO with the archivist. Is there any other class or PrC that would fit any better? Any maybe allow the race to not be confined. I would interpret the Arcane Hierophant in this build as something of a natural world researcher; interested in the elements, plants and animals but from a scientific rather than religious perspective. Your Archivist spells might be mostly Druid spells, making you some sort of Archivist of Nature. As for the race, I believe the only other way save Druid is to be an elf or half-elf, then take a level of Wildrunner before entering AH (though this means losing 9th level spells until level 21). If you find another solution, please let me know.
psly4mne 04-28-06, 04:57 PM	As for the race, I believe the only other way save Druid is to be an elf or half-elf, then take a level of Wildrunner before entering AH (though this means losing 9th level spells until level 21). If you find another solution, please let me know.The above build with Wildrunner gets 9th level Archivist and Sublime Chord spells as a (half-)elf
Analysis 04-28-06, 05:22 PM	The above build with Wildrunner gets 9th level Archivist and Sublime Chord spells as a (half-)elf True. Its only weakness (subjectively) is that the arcane casting (bard + sublime chord) has a limit to known spells, unlike wizard casting.
fnord 04-28-06, 05:31 PM	True. Its only weakness (subjectively) is that the arcane casting (bard + sublime chord) has a limit to known spells, unlike wizard casting. So Bamboo Spirit Folk appears to be the only way to get Archivist/Wizard 9th/9th spells.
psly4mne 04-28-06, 05:50 PM	Illumian Bard 1 / Archivist 1 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge 7 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10 Needs Improved Sigil (Krau), Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots), and Open Least Chakra (Feet) (3 feats total) to qualify. 18th level Wizard and Archivist casting.
fnord 04-28-06, 06:12 PM	Illumian Bard 1 / Archivist 1 / Wizard 1 / Mystic Theurge 7 / Fochlucan Lyrist 10 Needs Improved Sigil (Krau), Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots), and Open Least Chakra (Feet) (3 feats total) to qualify. 18th level Wizard and Archivist casting. I stand corrected. You're good. You should also need Polyglot to qualify for Fochluran Lyrist, though, for a total of 4 feats.
psly4mne 04-28-06, 09:08 PM	I stand corrected. You're good. You should also need Polyglot to qualify for Fochluran Lyrist, though, for a total of 4 feats. If you RP it right, you can avoid the extra expenditure. I bet there are plenty of Blighters out there who would gladly teach you Druidic for a nickel, just out of spite. PH states that a Druid can lose druidic status for teaching a non-Druid Druidic. It stands to reason that it is possible to learn Druidic as a non-Druid.
Caelic 04-28-06, 09:37 PM	If you RP it right, you can avoid the extra expenditure. I bet there are plenty of Blighters out there who would gladly teach you Druidic for a nickel, just out of spite. PH states that a Druid can lose druidic status for teaching a non-Druid Druidic. It stands to reason that it is possible to learn Druidic as a non-Druid. I'm sorry, I'm REALLY tired of hearing, "Oh, just roleplay running down the street to the local Blighter!" It's not roleplaying; it's an attempt to get by a requirement without paying anything for it. And, strictly by RAW, it doesn't work (although this is certainly one of those cases where the rules contradict common sense.) Speaking Druidic is a class ability of the Druid, and is technically lost when he becomes an ex-druid.
AvaronGansdell 04-28-06, 09:47 PM	with archivist there really isent a whole lot of reasons to want to mix arcane into the character. with access to every cleric, druid, ranger, paladin, exalted, and domain spell you can learn to cast basicly any spell in D&D. Domain spells alone net you 70% of the wizards spell list. but the wizard/druid/MT/Hirophant is a solid build and besides with only 3 levels in the bace class all you really get is there casting system. and in MT type builds I think its good to have atleast one half no reliant on spellbooks inacse something goes horribly wrong.
psly4mne 04-28-06, 10:11 PM	I'm sorry, I'm REALLY tired of hearing, "Oh, just roleplay running down the street to the local Blighter!" It's not roleplaying; it's an attempt to get by a requirement without paying anything for it. And, strictly by RAW, it doesn't work (although this is certainly one of those cases where the rules contradict common sense.) Speaking Druidic is a class ability of the Druid, and is technically lost when he becomes an ex-druid. Like it or not, it's what the Player's Handbook says. If you don't like it, you can mix in a level of Druid (in place of a level of Mystic Theurge), dropping the final Wiz and Arch levels to 17. Or you can pay for a permanent Tongues. Or you can shape Soulspeaker Circlet and bind it to your Crown chakra (that would require either a flaw or Psychic Reformation in the above build). However, that is not really required. Fochlucan Lyrist requires the skill Speak Language (Druidic). Speak Language is a class skill for Bards. Your DM might require you to actually have someone to learn from (hence the local Blighter), but that is in the same boat as not allowing you to take ranks in Profession (Sailor) while living in the middle of the desert - not RAW.
Caelic 04-28-06, 10:16 PM	Like it or not, it's what the Player's Handbook says. ...and, lo, as always, "It's what the Player's Handbook says" trumps "It makes sense." Siiigh. Nevermind. I forgot; the almighty RAW must be worshipped. Praise the almighty RAW. I'm off to make my eight thousand GP use-activated item of True Strike.
NineInchNall 04-28-06, 10:16 PM	I'm sorry, I'm REALLY tired of hearing, "Oh, just roleplay running down the street to the local Blighter!" It's not roleplaying; it's an attempt to get by a requirement without paying anything for it. And, strictly by RAW, it doesn't work (although this is certainly one of those cases where the rules contradict common sense.) Speaking Druidic is a class ability of the Druid, and is technically lost when he becomes an ex-druid. Actually, according to the SRD the Druid's ability to speak Druidic comes from getting Druidic as a bonus language. shrug
psly4mne 04-28-06, 10:29 PM	...and, lo, as always, "It's what the Player's Handbook says" trumps "It makes sense."Can you explain exactly how it is that a Druid can teach Druidic to a non-Druid (as the Player's Handbook says), but non-Druids can't learn Druidic? NineInchNall, that is true also. Speaking a language is not a class feature. Anyway, if it bugs you so much, use one of the three solutions in my above post (2 of which don't even lose another caster level). I also technically could have used a Ring of Evasion for the Evasion requirement, but I like the Impulse Boots solution better.
Caelic 04-28-06, 10:34 PM	Can you explain to me exactly how it is that a Druid would teach Druidic to a non-Druid, given that by doing so he's going to lose all his abilities? I'm certainly not going to grouse about the Impulse Boots solution, given that, AFAIK, I was the first one on the boards (one of the first, at any rate) to use it. The whole hand-waving, "We'll just assume that he learns Druidic somewhere or other" approach annoys me, though; I'll admit it. I think it's silly to have a character enter what's essentially a Druidic order by consorting with the enemies of that order. Yes, you can justify it by RAW. You can also justify 8000 gp continuous True Strike items by RAW--hence my above comment. RAW isn't all it's cracked up to be.
psly4mne 04-28-06, 10:51 PM	Can you explain to me exactly how it is that a Druid would teach Druidic to a non-Druid, given that by doing so he's going to lose all his abilities?Nothing a little Atonement wont fix... ;) The whole hand-waving, "We'll just assume that he learns Druidic somewhere or other" approach annoys me, though; I'll admit it. I think it's silly to have a character enter what's essentially a Druidic order by consorting with the enemies of that order.I have to agree with you here. Many people here (myself included) have a tendency to forget that there is an organization associated with a prestige class. We tend to wave such things off as "RP requirements." That said, there are two ways to get into the Lyrists as a non-Druid: major deception (and probably evilness, and likely association with Blighters) and ridiculously contrived circumstances (unlikely to occur in a real game). The first is certainly possible if you don't mind the added burden of deception. It is helped along by the presence of Druid spells and Polymorph on the Archivist "list." The second is not so practical. Have your character raised among Druids, and take Speak Language (Druidic) as a skill at first level. Or some other such contrivance. Alternatively, relegate the Evasion requirement to a ring and bind Soulspeaker Circlet to the Crown chakra. Or get permanent Tongues. There are ways around the requirement. EDIT: I noticed my favorite simplistic dual-casters haven't shown up on this thread. Illumian[Aeshkrau] Drd 3/Wiz 1/MT 4/AH 10/MT +2 (Improved Krau) BambooSpiritFolk Drd 2/Wiz 1/MT 6/AH 10/MT +1 (Sanctum Spell) The second has an extra level of Wizard casting, while the first has an extra level of Wildshape and LOTS of spell slots thanks to Wildshape + Aeshkrau