Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lago AM3P 11-13-03, 08:49 PM	What the title says. Order of Levels: Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 5 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Eldritch Knight 4 Feats: Starting Stats: Cha: 18 Int: 18 The rest really don't matter, as polymorphing and shapechanging are a staple of your higher-level diet. As for which stat to boost, it really depends on what you want out of your Eldritch Knight. Boost charisma if you want to see that divine shield power get a little crazier, or boost intelligence if you care more about saves and bonus spells. It depends on what you value. Similarly, with a little feat re-swapping, you can also set this character up to work with sorceror levels if you don't like splitting the difference. The build I'm using picks up wizard levels, as wizardly buffs are a huge staple of this character, and the guy I have in mind MUST use quicken spell. No way around it. (Level 1) Human Bonus: Improved Shield Bash (DotF Version) (Level 1) Fighter Bonus: Extend Spell Level 1: Improved Shield Bash (PHB Version) Level 3: Craft Wondrous Item / Chain Spell, depending on whether this character is put in a stupid arena fight or not. (Level 6) Wizard Bonus: Quicken Spell Level 6: Spell Penetration (Level 7) Eldritch Knight Bonus: Power Attack Level 9: Persistant Spell Level 12: Divine Might Level 15: Divine Shield Level 18: Greater Spell Penetration. The guy I wanted boosts charisma over intelligence. Since he paid for those rip-off inherent bonuses, his charisma by level 20 is 34. If the DM lets you get away with it (and he really shouldn't), you can just polymorph any object yourself into whatever you want and then cast a 'alter self' so that you're back into your original form. He's also paying for a rod of greater quickening (limited wish), so money's going to be tight from the outset. Oh, well. This guy also spends all of his 9th level slots for the day on extended shapechange (with a rod of extension). There's a 2-hour gap when the triple shapechanges don't function, but, it's really not a big deal since he's an arcane caster and thus can't kick ass all day long. The sacred exorcist level also gives the benefit of dispel and detect evil spells, which are normally complete barney were it not for the fact that they let you cast divine spells; now it's totally time to use a prayer bead of karma. For simplicity's sake, rather than hunt through Monster Manuals for an appropriate form or abusing the living heck out of shapechange, the character will just simply spend most of his time in titan form while using 'persistant alter-self' to give himself his old form, pocketing the stats. So. Oh, also, the character uses a shield as a weapon sized for a large-sized character. This allows him to wield a light wooden shield in one hand, mostly for the damage bonus for spikes. For the AC, keep in mind that this probably doesn't apply, as ghostform was written when the shield bonus wasn't kept separate, so the shield bonus magically applies now. If this really bothers you, you can make the shield a ghost touch shield. Attack Bonus: +55 (16 BAB + 12 Enhancement from Divine Shield + 6 (Quickened Limited Wish: Divine Might) + 20 Base Strength Bonus + 3 Strength Enhancement -2 Mis-sized weapon.) Attacks: +55* +55/+50/+45/+40 Damage Bonus: 1d6 + 12 Enhancement + 12 Divine Might + 6 Divine Favor + 34 Strength + 10 (Use Magic Device: Wand of Extended Spikes)--> 1d6+74. Can power attack for up to 32 damage more. AC, in Ghostform: 10 (Base) + 6 (Dexterity) + 2 (Shield) + 6 (Monk's Belt: Wisdom) + 12 (Deflection, from Ghostform) + 1 Monk AC Bonus + 12 (Shield Enhancement) -- 49 AC. Spells of Note. Spells with a * by it mean that whenever the character gets an advance warning of knowing that he'll have to kick some ass, he'll extend-cast this spell ahead of time and prep the slot with something else. Hide Life: Cast this sometime in his career before. Chain Contingency: Cast this sometime in his career before. *Persistant Ghostform: ONLY cast ahead of time, otherwise character will just use the incorporeal form from all of the shapechanges. Persistant Alter Self: Made to change the character back into what he really is so he can fit into dungeons while pocketing the phat strength bonus. Similarly, if there's some creature you can get access to that flies, change into THAT. *Energy Immunity: ONLY cast ahead of time, and only cast extended. Astral Projection: Why not? This character is already out-of-this-world crazy as it is. Dominate Monster: This spell is layer-castered (extended, of course) on one or two mooks, such that when the Eldritch Knight gets some free time he'll Magic Jar + Imbue Familiar With Spell Ability: This is cast on some mook you can control, like a golem or an umber hulk or something. The familiar inhabits the monster's body, you discreetly cram the body into a bag of holding, and then you do your thing. Silent Image: Quickened - When you just can't think of anything to cast. Time Stop: Duh Clone: You never know. Ugh... this is getting too cheesy, even for me. I'll work on this character sometime later, if I can control my shame for wrecking the game so horribly. Or if anyone cares.
A Man In Black 11-13-03, 08:57 PM	Heehee! Cherrypicking the worst of the cheest from both DotF AND T&B. Gotta love any build that abuses Hide Life, Clone, Chained Contingency, Divine Might, DOTF Imp. Shield Bash, AND Divine Shield.
Lago AM3P 11-13-03, 08:59 PM	I haven't even touched anything but core, T&B, and DotF. Or assigned items, other than a rod of greater quickening, a masterwork large light wooden shield, standard spellbook, a prayer bead of karma, and a wand of spikes. Otherwise, the power of this Eldritch Knight can go up yet further--way the hell up.
Kenkai 11-13-03, 09:11 PM	why not limited wish divine power? it will give you a 20 BAB.
Lago AM3P 11-13-03, 09:16 PM	Because such a setup will require two rounds worth of quickened spells, and: Will cost 600 XP. Spending 300 XP per battle is not a huge deal at the level this character does it. Spending 600 XP still isn't a HUGE deal but, but considering how short high level combat is and how stupid-high this character's attack bonus already is (not to mention that it restricts you from casting other quickened spells now and level 7-9 spells in other combats), there really isn't much need for it.
Furdaddy 11-14-03, 02:56 AM	Isn't it impossible to Polymorph into a Titan because they have more than 15 hit dice?
draegl0th 11-14-03, 03:21 AM	Originally posted by A Man In Black Heehee! Cherrypicking the worst of the cheest from both DotF AND T&B. Gotta love any build that abuses Hide Life, Clone, Chained Contingency, Divine Might, DOTF Imp. Shield Bash, AND Divine Shield. Are you in the wrong place?
A Man In Black 11-14-03, 07:19 AM	Originally posted by draegl0th Are you in the wrong place? How many builds do you see that abuse ALL of those at once?
draegl0th 11-14-03, 07:27 AM	Which rule specifically states that you can't? This is the Character Optimization board, after all :rolleyes: If you are too stubborn or simple-minded (or both), then you shouldn't be here the first place.
Setanos 11-14-03, 07:43 AM	Question: How come you go with .../Sacred Excorcist 1/Eldrich Knight 4 to finish off instead of .../Sacred Excorcist 3/Eldrich Knight 2? Since Sacred Excorcist is a 3/4th BAB progression, you'd loose no additional BaB, continue spellcasting progression, and gain 2 more levels of d8 Hps, and what ever goodies you get from Sacred Excorcist levels 2-3, instead of the bland d6 hp and +1 spellcasting level
SerpentMage 11-14-03, 08:56 AM	For that matter, why not go SE 4/EK 1 as those last 5 levels...same BAB, higher hps, better saves (9/4/10 vs 9/4/9), and extra abilities beyond the +1 spellcasting level. Seems like a no-brainer.
Setanos 11-14-03, 09:23 AM	Yeah thats what I get for posting so early...totally right SerpentMage, you can go to 4th level on 3/4th classes only loosing 1 BaB.
Lord Arkhaven 11-14-03, 09:29 AM	What about this build Wizard 6/Fighter 2/Eldritch Knight 10/Arch Mage 2 I think I would concentrate on bows when I wasn't casting magic spells. Three of the four bow feats below are bonus feats so only one character feat is used for bow. By taking Conjuration focus (for Archmage) the next logical step is Augment Summoning, which adds nice flavour to the character. Any suggestions for improvement? I think a couple levels of Archmage is cool but is it worth it because of the feats it uses? Race: Elf Level 1: (Wizard 1) Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (Enchantment) Level 2: (Fighter 1) Point Blank Shot Level 3: (Wizard 2) Spell Focus (Conjurations) Level 4: (Fighter 2) Precise Shot Level 5: (Wizard 3) Level 6: (Wizard 4) Augment Summoning Level 7: (Wizard 5) Craft Magic Arms & Armour Level 8: (Knight 1) Rapid Shot Level 9: (Knight 2) Skill Focus (Spellcraft) Level 10: (Knight 3) Level 11: (Knight 4) Level 12: (Knight 5) Many Shot Level 13: (Knight 6) Level 14: (Knight 7) Level 15: (Knight 8) Empower Spell Level 16: (Knight 9) Level 17: (Knight 10) Level 18: (Archmage 1) Quicken Spell Level 19: (Archmage 2) Level 20: (Wizard 6)
Balthanon 11-14-03, 09:35 AM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P What the title says. Order of Levels: Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 5 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Eldritch Knight 4 This doesn't quite get to the title. You might as well add in the last five levels of the build. I'm guessing off hand you're finishing off Eldritch Knight and adding another 3 levels of Sacred Exorcist and 1 of Wizard. The addition of the Eldritch Knight has made getting 9th arcane spells and a 16 base attack fairly easy, I think, it doesn't quite have the allure it used to on these boards. Originally posted by Lago AM3P The sacred exorcist level also gives the benefit of dispel and detect evil spells, which are normally complete barney were it not for the fact that they let you cast divine spells; now it's totally time to use a prayer bead of karma. Adding a domain onto your spellcasting does not allow you to cast divine spells. Your spells are still arcane, you just have access to some spells that are normally divine. Originally posted by Lago AM3P For simplicity's sake, rather than hunt through Monster Manuals for an appropriate form or abusing the living heck out of shapechange, the character will just simply spend most of his time in titan form while using 'persistant alter-self' to give himself his old form, pocketing the stats. This is more than a bit questionable. Alter self can only be used to assume a form that's within one size category of your "normal form", so I'm assuming you're saying that your normal form is the one you were born with, and thus no matter what you're shapechanged as you can use it to return to your original shape. This seems off in a couple of ways. One, shapechange alters your type, which seems to me like that would be enough to set your 'normal form' as whatever you're shapechanged into. Second, this seems a lot like stacking similar types of bonuses/spells, the highest level spell shouldn't be able to be overridden by the lower.
Thyrion the Red 11-14-03, 10:14 AM	The guy I wanted boosts charisma over intelligence. Since he paid for those rip-off inherent bonuses, his charisma by level 20 is 34. sorry if i lost something but why Wizard if u boosted ur charisma? Why just not get Sorcerer?
Lago AM3P 11-14-03, 11:32 AM	Adding a domain onto your spellcasting does not allow you to cast divine spells. Your spells are still arcane, you just have access to some spells that are normally divine. I meant the spell-like abilities of dispel evil and detect evil, which are in fact divine spells, not the domain. Though the exorcism domain is a pretty sweet deal if you expect to fight a lot of undead and outsiders, which is what this character was pimping up for. This doesn't quite get to the title. You might as well add in the last five levels of the build. I'm guessing off hand you're finishing off Eldritch Knight and adding another 3 levels of Sacred Exorcist and 1 of Wizard. The addition of the Eldritch Knight has made getting 9th arcane spells and a 16 base attack fairly easy, I think, it doesn't quite have the allure it used to on these boards. The thing is, though, that with nearly all PrCs that advance arcane spellcasting (I didn't feel like combing through anything past the Big Four classbooks) also make your BAB go to crap. The BAB granted by almost all of the arcane spellcasting PrCs doesn't quite get you to 16 BAB for that fourth (and IMVHO, not really important) and final attack. You've already taken two caster level hits--I really can't see taking a third one by taking a level in something to bump up your BAB. You could make a case for it with things like paladin levels or the shiba protector PrC (as saves and hp are the only weak area of this character--but it's a considerable weakness), but it depends on how you value things. The Sacred Exorcist pushes that last bit of BAB through while advancing your arcane spellcasting to the point where you've only taken two caster level hits. This is really, really important if you want to use a sorceror in this build instead, because losing a third caster level for whatever reason no totally rockin' 9th level spells. Plus, you get a mild save bonus, an acceptable skill list, the ability to use divine feats, and the ability to use a prayer bead of karma. Little things like that give the character to pack power in his pants. Since you're using moment of prescience, hopefully,(though this character has better things to do against undead), as long as you take the Heighten Turning feat instead of Greater Spell Penetration, you can actually have a decent shot against undead foes. That's why I put the sacred exorcist levels in the middle, because it gives you a save bonus when you need it, some extra spells for free, and, most importantly, the ability to pick up the divine feats and use a prayer bead of karma. sorry if i lost something but why Wizard if u boosted ur charisma? Why just not get Sorcerer? That's a good point, in fact. My answer is that it just depends on how you value things. The character I had in mind uses a variety of wizard buffs (which tend to be way better than clerical buffs, divine powah/favah aside) in combat and whenever he gets the chance extend-casts them beforehand and loads up on utility spells. Since he likes divine feats and is interested just a little bit in turning, he pumps up charisma, which gives you a defense and attack/damage bonus that stacks REALLY well with polymorphing. If he valued spellcasting over melee, then, sure, he'd pump up intelligence. Sorceror levels have the advantage of not splitting your attack and spellcasting stats for this build, and you still get 9th level spells and a 16 BAB. Plus, it just fits the theme of an arcane combatant better. On the other hand, I envisioned this character casting an array of single-shot buffs and more importantly being able to use quicken spell. Quicken Spell was the deciding factor for me, as I just didn't have any room for Arcane Preparation. Again, it just depends on how you value things. There's certainly room for sorceror levels here, and people can definitely make a case for that. By the way, I typed out the levels wrong. It goes: Fighter 1 / Wizard 5 / Eldritch Knight 5 / Sacred Exorcist 4 / Eldritch Knight 5. And the fighter bonus feat is used for Improved Shield Bash, while the human bonus feat is used for Extend Spell. Yeesh. One, shapechange alters your type, which seems to me like that would be enough to set your 'normal form' as whatever you're shapechanged into. Second, this seems a lot like stacking similar types of bonuses/spells, the highest level spell shouldn't be able to be overridden by the lower. Unfortunately, the order of operations with polymorph, as per the PHB example of shapechanging and being polymorphed into a goldfish, supports my extremely stupid and overpowered example. Alter Self, unfortunately, doesn't change your stats, so it stacks perfectly with shapechange, but it does only work with respect to your 'normal' form, which is pretty subjective. If that's the case, you could just persistant alter self back to some outsider biped, and slap a disguise self on that. Wizard 6/Fighter 2/Eldritch Knight 10/Arch Mage 2 When I get back from class, I'll evaluate this further, as Arch Mage levels are pimp, and I really wish the game wouldn't be so stingy with how it interacts with EK levels, which are also pimp.
Jindl 11-14-03, 11:41 AM	The ability to use a spell-like ability that mimics a divine spell, does not meet the requirements to use a prayer bead -karma. The requirement is the ability to "cast divine spells". Not the ability to use a "divine" spell-like ability. Other than that, its a pretty good build, IMO. But what about Master if Yuirwood as well? Doesn't it give +1 bab and +1 spellcasting? -Jindl
Funny Slaughter 11-14-03, 11:45 AM	The thing is, though, that with nearly all PrCs that advance arcane spellcasting (I didn't feel like combing through anything past the Big Four classbooks) take a look into crystal keeps prestige class index. they sorted it by spellcasting advancement. Master if Yuirwood as well? Doesn't it give +1 bab and +1 spellcasting? nope. medium BAB only. gs Funny
Thyrion the Red 11-14-03, 02:41 PM	well i have a pal/sorc / ek that uses quicken True strike and others... i know sorcerer with meta uses takes full round to get the spell done and so a quicken true strike wouldnt be worth... but what i took the feat arcane preparation wich allows mem the spell as i want so i mem some quicken true strike all around on 5 / 6/ 7 / 8 and soon 9 =P hehehe and u can always cast Simbul's Spell Matrix and other simbul spells that will allow u to cast the spells on the matrix as quickened... =P thats my 2cp
Lago AM3P 11-14-03, 04:07 PM	The ability to use a spell-like ability that mimics a divine spell, does not meet the requirements to use a prayer bead -karma. The requirement is the ability to "cast divine spells". Not the ability to use a "divine" spell-like ability. I see where you're coming from. Rather, why not pay for someone to cast 'Imbue With Spell Ability' on you instead so you can use the prayer bead of karma? In addition to the cost of the spell, it would probably cost an additional 16,000 gp to hand over one of those pearls that grant extra spells. Or, since this character works for a church, the clergy just might grant it to him for free. Who knows?
Lago AM3P 11-14-03, 04:12 PM	Master of Yuirwood? And be out three feats?
catharz 11-14-03, 06:03 PM	Yes, Master of Yuirwood is a really good Meele sorceror PrC. Your HD goes up two die types. You gain decent BAB, skills/points per level, Uncanny/improved uncanny dodge, and Cha to Saves. Well worth the feats. It is about equvalent to Saced exorcist in power. Here is a little alteration to the Ran/Sor/NH/MT/MoY: Ranger 1/Sor 4/Nentyar hunter 2/Mystic theurge 2/Mystic wanderer 1/Master of Yuirwood 10. Basically the hardcore steriotypical FR Elf. BAB is 'only' +12/7/2, and Sorceror spellcasting is only at 16. The upsides are d8 HD for most of the levels, charisma to saves and AC, Divine might, blah blah blah. If you really want to max it and kill some flavor, just throw in a level or Sacred exorcist instead of the last MoY.
PhaedrusXY 11-14-03, 06:32 PM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P Master of Yuirwood? And be out three feats? MotY only requires Track and Alertness. Take a level of Ranger instead of Fighter and you get the Track. Get a Familiar, and you get Alertness, but it is a cheesy way to do it and some DMs may not allow it. Either way, it doesn't take 3 feats, and it gets you Uncanny Dodge and Cha to saves if you take 9 levels of it.
Funny Slaughter 11-14-03, 08:17 PM	Either way, it doesn't take 3 feats its quite hard to qualify skillwise as a sorcerer, if you dont have the points for some decent int you need to take some cosmopolitan or versatile eventually. gs Funny
MikeN 11-14-03, 08:41 PM	I can get 9th level arcane and divine spells too :p Shugenja6/Druid of the Wild3/Hospitalier3/Hexer8 or the simpler version (if Warcraft d20 is not allowed for some reason) Shug8/Hospitalier3/Hexer9 (or Hosp2/Hex10). You pick spells you can cast from the arcane list (level 7, 8, 9, and 9) and you cast them as divine spells so there is no chance of spell failure... By the way, for creativity how about Barb1/Sorc6/DO4/EK9 to the build you listed...better skills and HD to start out -- primitive spellcaster, chosen of the gods, etc., really easy to roleplay/justify the character design...
Lago AM3P 11-14-03, 09:30 PM	MotY only requires Track and Alertness. Take a level of Ranger instead of Fighter and you get the Track. Get a Familiar, and you get Alertness, but it is a cheesy way to do it and some DMs may not allow it. Either way, it doesn't take 3 feats, and it gets you Uncanny Dodge and Cha to saves if you take 9 levels of it. I also noticed that Alterness came in an ioun stone form, too, so it's not big deal. I'm more worried about Track, however, as you're still out a feat (I'm talking the one from the Fighter bonus level) because you were never ever going to take Track in any case but to qualify for a PrC. Okay. Before I make any value statements, I'm going to have to see which book the Master of Yuirwood is in, or at least a sample build. The whole point of having a +16 BAB, by the way, is to limit the amount of buffs from other sources you'll have to rely on to get a decent attack and damage bonus. Since divine favor is covered through limited wish, you can cast 'heroism' persistant, and shapechange and polymorph is way better than righteous might, you're only missing out on 300XP per relevant combat and +2 to hit over a standard cleric archer. I have no idea what or where Druid of the Wild is from, either; presumably, it should let you cast lightning bolt as a divine spell, right, as the Shugenja spells ain't cutting the mustard. (by the way, if you're doing my build via Sorceror, I just noticed that your first level HAS to be paladin if you want to qualify in time, instead of fighter. It's a dam shame that they pushed back the paladin's abilities, too.) By the way, for creativity how about Barb1/Sorc6/DO4/EK9 to the build you listed...better skills and HD to start out -- primitive spellcaster, chosen of the gods, etc., really easy to roleplay/justify the character design... Well, the problem with that is that barbarian raging stacks extraordinarily poorly with spellcasting, as you might imagine. Also, I don't know what prestige class 'DO' stands for.
Lago AM3P 11-14-03, 09:42 PM	(Add-on to last post) That's a big reason why I didn't use Mystic Theurge levels, as Mystic Theurge generally leaves your BAB and caster level crap, so you're wasting actions getting them up to speed unless you're into making divine favor and divine power persistant; to do the latter, unfortunately, requires you to quicken a divine power through a metamagic rod and get a caster level boost or two so your persistant divine favor won't be so horrible. If the Eldritch Exorcist character really wanted to, he could engage in combat without the quickened divine favor from the limited wish (then his to-hit will just be really high instead of insanely high), quickening some other spell and relying on persistant ghostform to get him out of jams. The Mystic Theurge HAS to have cast divine power and divine favor cast in some manner, or he doesn't participate in melee combat. Unfortunately, the Mystic Theurge, if he wants to cast divine power persistant, can't get 9th level arcane spells, so ALWAYS has to quicken this spell or get advance notice of combat. But, more telling, is the fact that I (IMO) don't think all the 7th or 8th level spells that a cleric gets adds up to being able to cast hide life, chain contingency and making shapechange last all day. Maybe it was a different story with the old haste, but other than straight bonuses to hit, wizard buffs (ESPECIALLY with non-core material) IMO are way better than clerical buffs--so which buffs are you going to use? Wizard buffs! Then again, it all depends on how you value things. I couldn't imagine life without taking spell penetration and greater spell penetration nor without taking the divine feats Sacred Exorcist levels give you.
A Man In Black 11-18-03, 07:32 PM	Originally posted by draegl0th Which rule specifically states that you can't? This is the Character Optimization board, after all :rolleyes: If you are too stubborn or simple-minded (or both), then you shouldn't be here the first place. Calm down. I was amused by a clever build, not ripping on Lago for *gasp* minmaxing on the charop board!