Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kilroo 05-13-06, 06:24 PM	If this has been pointed out already, I apologize. I searched, but I couldn't find it already posted, even on the threads where I got the idea. Speaking of which, I'd like to credit ChrisAsmadi's post on this thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=636426) for giving me the idea. Now, this is probably pretty far from optimized. After all, if you're looking at getting 9th level arcane spells and 9th level powers you're up against what...Dirty Trick #1 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563)? ...And I think I've seen another method somewhere, but I don't remember how it worked. You also run into either a pretty limited selection of psionic powers this way, although this can be mitigated by feats to some extent. Perhaps the most useful aspect to this is the fact that it doesn't need Precocious Apprentice, uses only one "trick," and even works in campaigns where the DM has limited options to two base classes and one prestige. Also, it has no alignment restrictions or what have you. Just make sure Wizard is your favored class, and... Ardent 1 Wizard 1-3 Ardent 2 Cerebremancer 1-10 Wizard 4-7 Ardent 3 At first level, take Practiced Manifester and be sure you choose your mantles carefully, because you'll only get access to your primaries and one secondary. You can tap mantles or take expanded knowledges later if you need them, though, since there are no more required feats for the build. Due to the unusual rules for an Ardent learning powers, when you take Ardent 2, thanks to Practiced Manifester, the fact that your manifester level is 5 lets you learn a second-level power (actually you could learn a third-level power, but that's not what you want...although I suppose if you did, you could go ahead and take Wizard 4 and use your 6th level feat on an Expanded Knowledge, or what have you). Presto, you qualify for Cerebremancer (knowledge requirements, child's play, yadda yadda). When you finish with Cerebremancer, it is vitally important that you remember to take at least your fourth level of Wizard before you take your third and final Ardent level, so that your manifester level will be 17 and you can select a 9th level power. And there you have it. Vary the theme as you like; the key is that you have Practiced Manifester and at least one level of Wizard before you take Ardent 2 and that you have four levels of wizard before you take either Ardent 3 or Cerebremancer 10, whichever you choose to place later in the build. You'll be down 103 power points compared to a level 17 Ardent, but you have full level 17 wizard spellcasting. You've got the BAB and skill points of a 20th level wizard and a few extra hit points from your Ardent levels; you've lost some feats; you've got a bit of MAD, since you need Intelligence and Wisdom both, but if Mystic Theurges got by before the Archivist then so can you. Now...if you drop the idea of keeping the build within the 2 base - 1 prestige limit, what can you more experienced optimizers do with this?
ChrisAsmadi 05-13-06, 06:47 PM	This has been done before... Also... Wiz 2/Ardent 1/Cerebmancer 10/Ur-Priest 1/Mystic Theurge 5/Psionic Theurge 1 gets CL 17 Wizard(9th level spells), CL 7 Ur-Priest(7th level spells) and ML 12(16 with Practiced Manifester, so 8th level powers).
kilroo 05-14-06, 04:15 AM	If it's been done before...has anyone got the link? Also, I'd still be interested if anyone has any more input on ways to further improve on this theme that keep most of the advantages of being likely to be permitted even in a relatively restrictive campaign. The above, for example (or variations thereof; looks like you could vary the amounts of Cerebremancer, MT, and PT if you want a different emphasis), is a very nice alternative if there's no problem with being evil. Incidentally, my bad on the mistake with claiming to need the second level of Ardent to get second level powers. I had the level-up order mixed up...I forgot that feats come before picking spells and class features. (Kinda strange, to my mind...seems to me they ought to come either before you even pick your class, or after everything that is directly controlled by your choice of class.)
_J_ 05-14-06, 05:55 AM	I did a build that has 9th level psionic powers, arcane spells and divine spells, though it needs flaws. Behold: Illumian 1. Cleric 1 -- Spell focus (Evil), [Flaw] Iron will, [Flaw] Able learner, Domains: Trickery & X 2. Ardent 1 3. Ardent 2 -- Improved sigil (Krau) 4. Ardent 3 5. Ardent 4 6. Ur-Priest 1 -- Metamorphic transfer 7. Psychic theurge 1 8. Psychic theurge 2 9. Psychic theurge 3 -- Metamorphic transfer 10. Psychic theurge 4 11. Psychic theurge 5 12. Beholder mage 1 -- Practiced manifester 13. Mystic theurge 1 14. Mystic theurge 2 15. Mystic theurge 3 16. Mystic theurge 4 17. Cerebremancer 1 18. Cerebremancer 2 -- [Feat] 19. Cerebremancer 3 20. Cerebremancer 4 :D
Viklasq 05-14-06, 03:24 PM	Practiced Manifester, is that actually from any book or is it invented here on the board?
Zemyla 05-14-06, 03:32 PM	It's actually in Complete Psionic. The strange way it interacts with Ardent is the key to this build.