9th level spells and 9th level psionic powers possible in the same character? [Archive] - Wizards Community

9th level spells and 9th level psionic powers possible in the same character? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
tigermantis
11-21-05, 01:45 AM Well the title says it all. I would like to make a character that has maximum manifesting and arcane casting levels. I am thinking that this probably involves cerebremancer but I am sure that the powers of the optimization board probably have some better ways to do this.

I have access to all the complete books, races books, core rulebooks, XPH, and so on. I have access to a lot of books but I am not quite sure which ones would be pertinent other than the aforementioned.

My DM is pretty flexible and willing to accomodate most requests by players so that should be a plus.

So if any of you could help me in this endeavor I would appreciate it.
Phasics
11-21-05, 01:55 AM a modifed form of Mystic Theruge and Archane Hierophant perhaps ? arcane/psionic instead of arcane/devine ?
IceFractal
11-21-05, 05:04 AM A combination of Sublime Chord with Cerebromancer, perhaps? You could probably achieve the skill ranks in a timely way if you were human, started with a level of Bard (needed anyway for SC), and took Able Learner.
tigermantis
11-21-05, 10:41 AM bump :bump:
SoulGamit
11-21-05, 11:31 AM The problem then is still getting 9th level psionics.

Bard 2 / Psion 6 / Cerebromancer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Cerebromancer 8

I don't see how we can fit another level of psion into there.

Wait... isn't there a PrC from a dragon mag that advances both spellcasting and manifestation abilities?
PonTelon
11-21-05, 12:15 PM The problem then is still getting 9th level psionics.

Bard 2 / Psion 6 / Cerebromancer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Cerebromancer 8

I don't see how we can fit another level of psion into there.

Wait... isn't there a PrC from a dragon mag that advances both spellcasting and manifestation abilities?
There is indeed one. Mind Mage...I want to say it's 314. it's around that range at least.
tigermantis
11-21-05, 01:14 PM That sounds good I guess I will have to find that Dragon magazine.
Nightspirit
11-21-05, 01:21 PM the mind mage grants a +8 arcane caster level and a +8 manifester level in 10 levels...and the first 4 levels are not +1 arcane/+1manifester, but 1st +1 arcane, 2nd +1 manifester, 3rd +1 arcane 4th +1 manifester...
Khan the Destroyer
11-21-05, 03:22 PM The problem then is still getting 9th level psionics.

Bard 2 / Psion 6 / Cerebromancer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Cerebromancer 8

I don't see how we can fit another level of psion into there.

Wait... isn't there a PrC from a dragon mag that advances both spellcasting and manifestation abilities?
Why do you need the two levels in Sublime Chord?

Wouldn't Bard 2/Psion 6/Cerebremancer 2/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 8/Psion 1 work?

EDIT: Wait. How is this build even qualifying for Sublime Chord without 3rd level spells?
PonTelon
11-21-05, 03:24 PM Why do you need the two levels in Sublime Chord?

Wouldn't Bard 2/Psion 6/Cerebremancer 2/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 8/Psion 1 work?

EDIT: Wait. How is this build even qualifying for Sublime Chord without 3rd level spells?
heh, I was about to correct about the 3rd level spells, but you edited it between when I loaded the page and the reply button loaded. I just noticed because it was in the quote...
kilroo
11-21-05, 03:32 PM The problem then is still getting 9th level psionics.

Bard 2 / Psion 6 / Cerebromancer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Cerebromancer 8

I don't see how we can fit another level of psion into there.

Wait... isn't there a PrC from a dragon mag that advances both spellcasting and manifestation abilities?

Using Improved Sigil (Krau) or Precocious Thingy here?

Hey...if you accept both as working, is there any way of interpreting those as stacking? Otherwise it sounds like you've somehow got to squeeze out one more double progression level...

Can Prestige Bard save this?
fnord
11-21-05, 03:39 PM Would you settle for 9th level divine spells and 9th level powers? That should be possible with Ur-Priest (or Divine Crusader).
tigermantis
11-21-05, 03:54 PM I was aiming more for arcane spells but I had given some thought to divine also. I am not sure that Ur-priest would fit into the campaign that I will be playing in. I will have to take a look at it again. I would certainly be open to any builds that involve 9th level divine and 9th level psionics. So feel free to post any that you have.
carnivore
11-21-05, 03:55 PM mind mage is in Dragon 313.

try this:

Wiz 1/ Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 5/ Spellsinger 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Mind Mage 9

Cast 9th lvl Arcane spells
Manifest 8th lvl Powers

Wiz uses Precocious Apprentice......Spellsinger is from Races of Faerun

it is as close as you can get with Arcane/Psi.......Psi/Divine is easier

Psion 10/ Ur priest 2/ Psychic Theurge 8

9th lvl Powers
9th lvl Divine Spells

Psychic Theurge found here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b

:D
tigermantis
11-21-05, 04:02 PM Thanks for the help Carnivore.
catharz
11-21-05, 04:17 PM With Precocious Apprentice: Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 6/Mind Mage 10.

Manifests as a 17th level psion, casts as a 15th level wizard, but, with a liberal interpreation of Focus of Discipline and massive PP expenditure can prepare 9th level spells in 8th-level slots.

I think that's the closest you'll get.
Nightspirit
11-21-05, 04:56 PM mind mage is in Dragon 313.

try this:

Wiz 1/ Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 5/ Spellsinger 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Mind Mage 9

Cast 9th lvl Arcane spells
Manifest 8th lvl Powers

Wiz uses Precocious Apprentice......Spellsinger is from Races of Faerun

the spellsinger requires to be able to cast arcane spells without preparation...

and sublime chord 1+7mind mage=8...how do you get 9th level arcane spells?

@catharz: doesn't the wizard must know the spell to prepare it? He cannot learn 9th level spells, as a 15th level wizard...
catharz
11-21-05, 05:25 PM @catharz: doesn't the wizard must know the spell to prepare it? He cannot learn 9th level spells, as a 15th level wizard...

Like I said, it requires a liberal interpretation. Some think that having the spell scribed into your spellbook is enough, and some don't.
World Savers Inc.
11-21-05, 11:52 PM what about Psion 10/Apostle of Peace 2/Psychic Theurge 8 for the opposite effect of the Ur Priest Build.
LordofProcrastination
11-22-05, 12:53 AM For any of you interested, the challenge of 9th level manifesting combined with 9th level arcane spellcasting has been recently solved in my first "LoP's Dirty Tricks" article, Behold! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563)

Good work with the PsiDivine connection, and enjoy!
tigermantis
11-22-05, 12:56 AM what about Psion 10/Apostle of Peace 2/Psychic Theurge 8 for the opposite effect of the Ur Priest Build.

That build sounds intriguing. I would like to chart it out but it seems that my Book of Exalted Deeds has been eaten by my Book of Vile darkness. :eek: Hopefully I am wrong and it is just hiding from it.
tigermantis
11-22-05, 01:13 AM For any of you interested, the challenge of 9th level manifesting combined with 9th level arcane spellcasting has been recently solved in my first "LoP's Dirty Tricks" article, Behold! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563)

Good work with the PsiDivine connection, and enjoy!

Nice work! I think this may be a little overpowered for this particular DM and campaign. Still quite impressive though.
tigermantis
11-22-05, 04:54 AM And now for a related side question. Between metamagic and metapsionic feats which are more useful to take? Is it a matter of choice or is one mechanically better than the other?
tigermantis
11-22-05, 01:45 PM :bump:
DisposableHero_
11-22-05, 03:06 PM The trick with cerebremancers is not to attain 9th level arcane and psionic effects, its finding effective ways to supplement one side of that equation with another. My personal Favorite build is as follows:

Precocious Apprenticed Wizard 1/Psion (Telepath) 3/Cerebremancer 6/Incantatrix 10

gets 9th level arcane spells, though only 5th level psionic powers, but it has more than a few tricks (most of which revolve around the power schism) such as:

Using a schismed mind to Cooperative Metamagic or Metamagic Effect your own spells
Using Mental Pinnacle to "overclock" the manifester level of your schismed mind, then dispel the Pinnacle psionically and start casting again
Using your Schismed mind to counterspell while you keep casting
Using Tenser's Transformation or Combat Transformation while maintaining the ability to cast spells or manifest powers
carnivore
11-22-05, 03:42 PM the spellsinger requires to be able to cast arcane spells without preparation......
quite correct, :embarrass ...it should have been:

Sorc 1/ Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 5/ Spellsinger 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Mind Mage 9

and sublime chord 1+7mind mage=8...how do you get 9th level arcane spells?

i was under the impression that Mind Mage lost the first and last lvl for spell casting/manifesting Progression....opps

:D
ShadowCub
11-22-05, 06:02 PM Okay, Precocious Apprentice allows access to a 2nd level spell for a 1st level Wiz or Sorcerer, thus meeting half the requirement for a Cerebremancer.

Is there an equivalent feat for Psionics or Divine casters that would allow rapid entry into Cerebremancer, Mystic Theurge, Psychic Theurge by taking 3 levels in the non-Arcane class (If you wanted those special abilities or if you were doing the Divine/Psionic version.)?

Unfortunately the preq of "Arcane Caster Level 1" would probably also be duplicated if there are equivalent feats preventing a human from taking 2 "Precocious" feats at Level 1 and then doing something like Wiz 1/Psion 1/ Cerebramancer 10....
DisposableHero_
11-22-05, 07:13 PM Is there an equivalent feat for Psionics or Divine casters that would allow rapid entry into Cerebremancer, Mystic Theurge, Psychic Theurge by taking 3 levels in the non-Arcane class (If you wanted those special abilities or if you were doing the Divine/Psionic version.)?No. Extremely liberal DMs might houserule magic psionics transparency in such as way that the illumian's Improved Krau Sigil could be used with psionic powers, but by RAW, there is no psionic equivalent (unless its hiding in a dragon mag somewhere)
catharz
11-22-05, 08:19 PM No. Extremely liberal DMs might houserule magic psionics transparency in such as way that the illumian's Improved Krau Sigil could be used with psionic powers, but by RAW, there is no psionic equivalent (unless its hiding in a dragon mag somewhere)

In issue 319, there are Athasian humans, which are naturally psionic. This allows for slightly more wizardly characters. They have an LA of +1.

So, ECL 6: Wizard 4/Psion 1. At this point you gain a 2nd level power, so advance to Wiz 4/Psi 1/Cerebremancer 1. Now you can either qualify for Mind Mage really early, or just focus in keeping ahead as a wizard.

This is a slightly worse option than PA, because you're behind two levels rather than one.
epifreak
11-23-05, 03:33 AM Simply because I'm shocked no-one's suggested it yet:
gestalt wiz 20/psion 20.

Sorry, but I rarely get the opportunity to beat someone to the retartedly obvious post, so I take it when I can.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tigermantis 11-21-05, 01:45 AM	Well the title says it all. I would like to make a character that has maximum manifesting and arcane casting levels. I am thinking that this probably involves cerebremancer but I am sure that the powers of the optimization board probably have some better ways to do this. I have access to all the complete books, races books, core rulebooks, XPH, and so on. I have access to a lot of books but I am not quite sure which ones would be pertinent other than the aforementioned. My DM is pretty flexible and willing to accomodate most requests by players so that should be a plus. So if any of you could help me in this endeavor I would appreciate it.
Phasics 11-21-05, 01:55 AM	a modifed form of Mystic Theruge and Archane Hierophant perhaps ? arcane/psionic instead of arcane/devine ?
IceFractal 11-21-05, 05:04 AM	A combination of Sublime Chord with Cerebromancer, perhaps? You could probably achieve the skill ranks in a timely way if you were human, started with a level of Bard (needed anyway for SC), and took Able Learner.
tigermantis 11-21-05, 10:41 AM	bump :bump:
SoulGamit 11-21-05, 11:31 AM	The problem then is still getting 9th level psionics. Bard 2 / Psion 6 / Cerebromancer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Cerebromancer 8 I don't see how we can fit another level of psion into there. Wait... isn't there a PrC from a dragon mag that advances both spellcasting and manifestation abilities?
PonTelon 11-21-05, 12:15 PM	The problem then is still getting 9th level psionics. Bard 2 / Psion 6 / Cerebromancer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Cerebromancer 8 I don't see how we can fit another level of psion into there. Wait... isn't there a PrC from a dragon mag that advances both spellcasting and manifestation abilities? There is indeed one. Mind Mage...I want to say it's 314. it's around that range at least.
tigermantis 11-21-05, 01:14 PM	That sounds good I guess I will have to find that Dragon magazine.
Nightspirit 11-21-05, 01:21 PM	the mind mage grants a +8 arcane caster level and a +8 manifester level in 10 levels...and the first 4 levels are not +1 arcane/+1manifester, but 1st +1 arcane, 2nd +1 manifester, 3rd +1 arcane 4th +1 manifester...
Khan the Destroyer 11-21-05, 03:22 PM	The problem then is still getting 9th level psionics. Bard 2 / Psion 6 / Cerebromancer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Cerebromancer 8 I don't see how we can fit another level of psion into there. Wait... isn't there a PrC from a dragon mag that advances both spellcasting and manifestation abilities? Why do you need the two levels in Sublime Chord? Wouldn't Bard 2/Psion 6/Cerebremancer 2/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 8/Psion 1 work? EDIT: Wait. How is this build even qualifying for Sublime Chord without 3rd level spells?
PonTelon 11-21-05, 03:24 PM	Why do you need the two levels in Sublime Chord? Wouldn't Bard 2/Psion 6/Cerebremancer 2/Sublime Chord 1/Cerebremancer 8/Psion 1 work? EDIT: Wait. How is this build even qualifying for Sublime Chord without 3rd level spells? heh, I was about to correct about the 3rd level spells, but you edited it between when I loaded the page and the reply button loaded. I just noticed because it was in the quote...
kilroo 11-21-05, 03:32 PM	The problem then is still getting 9th level psionics. Bard 2 / Psion 6 / Cerebromancer 2 / Sublime Chord 2 / Cerebromancer 8 I don't see how we can fit another level of psion into there. Wait... isn't there a PrC from a dragon mag that advances both spellcasting and manifestation abilities? Using Improved Sigil (Krau) or Precocious Thingy here? Hey...if you accept both as working, is there any way of interpreting those as stacking? Otherwise it sounds like you've somehow got to squeeze out one more double progression level... Can Prestige Bard save this?
fnord 11-21-05, 03:39 PM	Would you settle for 9th level divine spells and 9th level powers? That should be possible with Ur-Priest (or Divine Crusader).
tigermantis 11-21-05, 03:54 PM	I was aiming more for arcane spells but I had given some thought to divine also. I am not sure that Ur-priest would fit into the campaign that I will be playing in. I will have to take a look at it again. I would certainly be open to any builds that involve 9th level divine and 9th level psionics. So feel free to post any that you have.
carnivore 11-21-05, 03:55 PM	mind mage is in Dragon 313. try this: Wiz 1/ Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 5/ Spellsinger 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Mind Mage 9 Cast 9th lvl Arcane spells Manifest 8th lvl Powers Wiz uses Precocious Apprentice......Spellsinger is from Races of Faerun it is as close as you can get with Arcane/Psi.......Psi/Divine is easier Psion 10/ Ur priest 2/ Psychic Theurge 8 9th lvl Powers 9th lvl Divine Spells Psychic Theurge found here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b :D
tigermantis 11-21-05, 04:02 PM	Thanks for the help Carnivore.
catharz 11-21-05, 04:17 PM	With Precocious Apprentice: Wizard 1/Psion 3/Cerebremancer 6/Mind Mage 10. Manifests as a 17th level psion, casts as a 15th level wizard, but, with a liberal interpreation of Focus of Discipline and massive PP expenditure can prepare 9th level spells in 8th-level slots. I think that's the closest you'll get.
Nightspirit 11-21-05, 04:56 PM	mind mage is in Dragon 313. try this: Wiz 1/ Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 5/ Spellsinger 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Mind Mage 9 Cast 9th lvl Arcane spells Manifest 8th lvl Powers Wiz uses Precocious Apprentice......Spellsinger is from Races of Faerun the spellsinger requires to be able to cast arcane spells without preparation... and sublime chord 1+7mind mage=8...how do you get 9th level arcane spells? @catharz: doesn't the wizard must know the spell to prepare it? He cannot learn 9th level spells, as a 15th level wizard...
catharz 11-21-05, 05:25 PM	@catharz: doesn't the wizard must know the spell to prepare it? He cannot learn 9th level spells, as a 15th level wizard... Like I said, it requires a liberal interpretation. Some think that having the spell scribed into your spellbook is enough, and some don't.
World Savers Inc. 11-21-05, 11:52 PM	what about Psion 10/Apostle of Peace 2/Psychic Theurge 8 for the opposite effect of the Ur Priest Build.
LordofProcrastination 11-22-05, 12:53 AM	For any of you interested, the challenge of 9th level manifesting combined with 9th level arcane spellcasting has been recently solved in my first "LoP's Dirty Tricks" article, Behold! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563) Good work with the PsiDivine connection, and enjoy!
tigermantis 11-22-05, 12:56 AM	what about Psion 10/Apostle of Peace 2/Psychic Theurge 8 for the opposite effect of the Ur Priest Build. That build sounds intriguing. I would like to chart it out but it seems that my Book of Exalted Deeds has been eaten by my Book of Vile darkness. :eek: Hopefully I am wrong and it is just hiding from it.
tigermantis 11-22-05, 01:13 AM	For any of you interested, the challenge of 9th level manifesting combined with 9th level arcane spellcasting has been recently solved in my first "LoP's Dirty Tricks" article, Behold! (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563) Good work with the PsiDivine connection, and enjoy! Nice work! I think this may be a little overpowered for this particular DM and campaign. Still quite impressive though.
tigermantis 11-22-05, 04:54 AM	And now for a related side question. Between metamagic and metapsionic feats which are more useful to take? Is it a matter of choice or is one mechanically better than the other?
tigermantis 11-22-05, 01:45 PM	:bump:
DisposableHero_ 11-22-05, 03:06 PM	The trick with cerebremancers is not to attain 9th level arcane and psionic effects, its finding effective ways to supplement one side of that equation with another. My personal Favorite build is as follows: Precocious Apprenticed Wizard 1/Psion (Telepath) 3/Cerebremancer 6/Incantatrix 10 gets 9th level arcane spells, though only 5th level psionic powers, but it has more than a few tricks (most of which revolve around the power schism) such as: Using a schismed mind to Cooperative Metamagic or Metamagic Effect your own spells Using Mental Pinnacle to "overclock" the manifester level of your schismed mind, then dispel the Pinnacle psionically and start casting again Using your Schismed mind to counterspell while you keep casting Using Tenser's Transformation or Combat Transformation while maintaining the ability to cast spells or manifest powers
carnivore 11-22-05, 03:42 PM	the spellsinger requires to be able to cast arcane spells without preparation...... quite correct, :embarrass ...it should have been: Sorc 1/ Psion 3/ Cerebremancer 5/ Spellsinger 1/ Sublime Chord 1/ Mind Mage 9 and sublime chord 1+7mind mage=8...how do you get 9th level arcane spells? i was under the impression that Mind Mage lost the first and last lvl for spell casting/manifesting Progression....opps :D
ShadowCub 11-22-05, 06:02 PM	Okay, Precocious Apprentice allows access to a 2nd level spell for a 1st level Wiz or Sorcerer, thus meeting half the requirement for a Cerebremancer. Is there an equivalent feat for Psionics or Divine casters that would allow rapid entry into Cerebremancer, Mystic Theurge, Psychic Theurge by taking 3 levels in the non-Arcane class (If you wanted those special abilities or if you were doing the Divine/Psionic version.)? Unfortunately the preq of "Arcane Caster Level 1" would probably also be duplicated if there are equivalent feats preventing a human from taking 2 "Precocious" feats at Level 1 and then doing something like Wiz 1/Psion 1/ Cerebramancer 10....
DisposableHero_ 11-22-05, 07:13 PM	Is there an equivalent feat for Psionics or Divine casters that would allow rapid entry into Cerebremancer, Mystic Theurge, Psychic Theurge by taking 3 levels in the non-Arcane class (If you wanted those special abilities or if you were doing the Divine/Psionic version.)?No. Extremely liberal DMs might houserule magic psionics transparency in such as way that the illumian's Improved Krau Sigil could be used with psionic powers, but by RAW, there is no psionic equivalent (unless its hiding in a dragon mag somewhere)
catharz 11-22-05, 08:19 PM	No. Extremely liberal DMs might houserule magic psionics transparency in such as way that the illumian's Improved Krau Sigil could be used with psionic powers, but by RAW, there is no psionic equivalent (unless its hiding in a dragon mag somewhere) In issue 319, there are Athasian humans, which are naturally psionic. This allows for slightly more wizardly characters. They have an LA of +1. So, ECL 6: Wizard 4/Psion 1. At this point you gain a 2nd level power, so advance to Wiz 4/Psi 1/Cerebremancer 1. Now you can either qualify for Mind Mage really early, or just focus in keeping ahead as a wizard. This is a slightly worse option than PA, because you're behind two levels rather than one.
epifreak 11-23-05, 03:33 AM	Simply because I'm shocked no-one's suggested it yet: gestalt wiz 20/psion 20. Sorry, but I rarely get the opportunity to beat someone to the retartedly obvious post, so I take it when I can.