Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Llochlyn 11-22-05, 05:14 PM	First of all, if you haven't, go read this trick about becoming a beholder mage (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=540563) Ok, so, as I said in there, I want to take advantage of this uber fast and powerful arcane progression along with as much divine and psionics you can get. I assume you need to be level 11 to transform into a beholder. If I'm wrong, things will change... Psion 5/Psychic warrior 1/Ur Priest 2/Psychic Theurge 3/Transform !/Beholder Mage 2/Mystic Theurge 4/Cerebremancer 3 It ends up with Arcane : 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/3 Divine : 6/5/4/4/4/4/3/2/1/0 Psi : 106 points, 22 powers (max level 6) (+1 Psywar) +bonus point for a high wisdom as a 1st level Psiwar, Feats needed : Spell Focus (Evil), Iron Will (as if he needed more...) and 2 Metmorphic transfers Can you optimize this babeholder further ? I hope so, at least as much as I fear so... [tleilaxu ghola suggests taking psiwar instead of pyro... he's right]
DisposableHero_ 11-22-05, 08:16 PM	After a brief read through of complete warrior, I noticed something odd when looking over the virtual prestige class rule. It states that a character can through a number of means, no longer qualify for a prestige class they have. One of the means listed is through loss of level. I had always assumed that when you lost a level, it was the most recent level that you lost. However, under this assumption, you can't lose any prereqs from level loss, because the levels that qualified you for your PrC must have been taken prior to the prestige level, so you would never lose a prereq that way. Sure enough, the DMG states you lose a hit die, but does not specify that it must be your latest hit die. It implies that you must lose the highest level of whatever class you choose (you can't choose to lose fighter level 5 as a level drained fighter 6 and still have 4 bonus feats). With that in mind, take a look at the following: Begin Character: Psion5/PsychicWarrior1/Ur-Priest2/Psychic Theurge4 Take metamorphic transfer at level 6 Get level drained 5 times and fail the saves to avoid level loss Remove 4 psion levels, and one Ur-Priest level You now still qualify for metamorphic transfer (psion1+psychic theurge4 = manifester level 5, 3rd level powers), you still qualify for psychic theurge (effective Ur-Priest casting 5th level divine spells, and effective psion casting for 3rd level powers, meaning even though PsyTheurge is providing them, you still meet all the prereqs and don't lose any class features), and finally, you still qualify for Ur-Priest with a base fort save of +4. Now PaO yourself into a beholder with metamorphic transfer to get 2 levels of beholder mage Take 1 level of mystic theurge Get level drained 1 level and remove one level of beholder mage, leaving you with 2nd level arcane spells from beholder mage 1 + mystic theurge 1, so mystic theurge is still qualified for. Take 6 levels of cerebremancer get level drained 1 level and remove the psychic warrior level as its +2 fort save is no longer needed for ur-priest Your current build is: Psion1/Ur-Priest1/PsychicTheurge4/BeholderMage1/MsyticTheurge1/Cerebremancer6 Take 2 more levels of cerebremancer and 4 more of psychic theurge and your final build is: Psion1/Ur-Priest1/BeholderMage1/PsychicTheurge8/Cerebremancer8/MysticTheurge1 giving you: Arcane Spell Casting: 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5 - Caster Level 20 Divine Spell Casting: 6/5/5/4/4/4/4/3/2/1 - Caster Level 20 Psionic Manifesting: 250 base power points, 31 powers known, up to 9th level powers, Manifester level 17 :D
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-22-05, 09:01 PM	That's crazy. Lets add a thought bottle in there to make things even more cheesy. That way we won't need to spend more than 1000XP. (two uses necessitates 2x500 XP cost I believe). Anyways, that's some brilliant tweaking. I'm not sure if it's perfectly true though. Just because rules do not say it does not imply that it'll work. I believe that's the if A -> B, then ¬A -> ¬B logical fallicy. Although if it's explicitly allowed in CW, then I'd buy it. What page in CW says that you could loose a pre-req through level loss? I want to look at that to see if it's as you imply.
NateNate 11-22-05, 09:35 PM	Nothing in PAO, Polymorph, or Alter Self would suggest that the character would lose any Supernatural abilities or qualities granted by its base race once transformed into a Beholder. An Illumian with Improved Sigil: Krau can get spells whose effective spell level is 2nd from up to two classes which only grant 1st level spells, i.e. Ur-Priest 1/ Beholder Mage 1/ Mystic Theurge would be possible. This is especially attractive since a Human as the base creature would lose its bonus feat and skill points after the PAO. Psion 5/ Psychic Warrior 1/ Ur-Priest 1/ Psychic Theurge 4/ (PAOed)/ Beholder Mage 1/ Cerebremancer 4/ Mystic Theurge 4 That gets you 7th level Psion powers with 9th level Arcane and 9th level Divine spells. Since you can take Metamorphic Transfer twice by 6th level with your Psion 5 and PsiWar 1 bonus feats, you should be able to qualify for everything on time. The thing in CW about losing a PrC if you lose the prerequisites only says you lose the class features of that PrC. You'd retain the levels in it, along with the HD, BAB, Saves, Skill Points, and any feats or ability score increases gained as a result of additional levels gained. It doesn't imply any actual level loss at all.
DisposableHero_ 11-22-05, 10:24 PM	The thing in CW about losing a PrC if you lose the prerequisites only says you lose the class features of that PrC. You'd retain the levels in it, along with the HD, BAB, Saves, Skill Points, and any feats or ability score increases gained as a result of additional levels gained. It doesn't imply any actual level loss at all.Yes but it implies that level loss is one way to lose the requirements, which is flat out impossible unless you can choose to lose the hit dice from a source other than your most recent level. The relevant text is: "It's possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost due to character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance further in a prestige class" Page 16 for reference. Also: LEVEL LOSS A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level. The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.Note how it states that a hit die is lost, and the character loses all class abilities but it doesn't state the hit die lost is always the last one gained, which I had assumed. The example in the text in the DMG implies that it must be the highest level of the class it is taken from, i.e. a second level rogue gets level drained and loses evasion, but nothing is listed in the criteria for multiclass characters as to which class they lose from. Does a level drained Rogue2/Fighter2 lose evasion, or does he lose a bonus feat? Does he lose d10 hit points or d6, +1 fort save or reflex save? In the absence of text indicating how this works I assumed it was the previous level. However, the text in complete warrior implies losing the prereqs for a prestige class, which doesn't really work under that assumption, as you'd bu default lose the prestige level or one you took afterwards and couldn't drop prereqs through level loss. Anyway, I have no stake in the rules argument, thats the way I saw it, and my post above shows what you can do with it, I fully expect other won't agree with that reading of the rules, but thats what I was going on :D
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-22-05, 10:31 PM	Ah I figured it out DisposableHero_! It is possible to loose your pre-reqs for a prestige class if you die for the following example: You take one level in any PrC. You die, remove that level taken in the PrC, die AGAIN now you lose qualification for the PrC (assuming you had entered it as soon as possible). Note this is supported by your own text. "It's possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levelS lost due to character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance further in a prestige class" The plural 'S' is perhaps what they are referring to. Now it's true that this by no means a definitive counter example, but it does make your argument a little weaker.
Llochlyn 11-23-05, 08:32 AM	Nothing in PAO, Polymorph, or Alter Self would suggest that the character would lose any Supernatural abilities or qualities granted by its base race once transformed into a Beholder. An Illumian with Improved Sigil: Krau can get spells whose effective spell level is 2nd from up to two classes which only grant 1st level spells, i.e. Ur-Priest 1/ Beholder Mage 1/ Mystic Theurge would be possible. This is especially attractive since a Human as the base creature would lose its bonus feat and skill points after the PAO. From Rules of the Game : Polymorphing (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040511a) article : Supernatural Ability: Supernatural abilities are magical but not spell-like. Some supernatural abilities depend on specific parts of the user's body, but most are derived from a creature's essential self. When polymorphing, you retain most of your own supernatural abilities, but you don't gain the assumed form's supernatural abilities unless you're using the shape change spell. You're right Natenate Let me take a look at Illumians and Improved Sigil... Ok, I get the idea... sweet, two levels gained for our psionics power, thanks Now on to the level loss trick... Mmmh I get the idea but I don't know if it works... When you'll lose your levels, you might also lose the prerequisites to enter theurge like classes then the subsequent spellcasting...
Llochlyn 11-23-05, 07:52 PM	Check another tricaster beholder builds with Archivist Intelligence is your only useful ability Using illumian Krau trick Your spellcasting prowess is not as nasty as above but you can actually play this one from lower levels without suffering too much Psion 3/Archivist 1/Psychic Theurge 7/PaO/Beholder Mage 1/Cerebromancer 8 Nets you 18th level psion power,9th level BM power, 8th level Archivist power Now, the same but with a slightly more versatile casting Psion 3/Archivist 1/Psychic Theurge 7/PaO/Beholder Mage 1//Mystic Theurge 1/Cerebromancer 7 17 psion,9 BM, 9 Archivist You can also have a more Divine focused Psion 3/Archivist 1/Psychic Theurge 7/PaO/Beholder Mage 1/Mystic Theurge 8 Psion 10, BM 9, Archivist 16 With the same verstilizing as above : Psion 3/Archivist 1/Psychic Theurge 7/PaO/Beholder Mage 1/Cerebromancer 1/Mystic Theurge 7 Psion 11, Bm 9, Archivist 15
DisposableHero_ 11-23-05, 08:09 PM	Ah I figured it out DisposableHero_! It is possible to loose your pre-reqs for a prestige class if you die for the following example: You take one level in any PrC. You die, remove that level taken in the PrC, die AGAIN now you lose qualification for the PrC (assuming you had entered it as soon as possible).But you don't have the prestige class level anymore, so there would be no point to such a rule. Thats what I'm saying, in order for level loss to contribute to losing a prereq without losing the class itself you would have to take away a level that was not the last one you took.
Llochlyn 11-23-05, 08:26 PM	But you don't have the prestige class level anymore, so there would be no point to such a rule. Thats what I'm saying, in order for level loss to contribute to losing a prereq without losing the class itself you would have to take away a level that was not the last one you took. o... k... My brain went liquid from reading this [I'm french] but now I understand the idea... I don't know if it's right or wrong though Might I ask all of you, now I doubt... Is the Improved Krau Sigil trick valid ? [It appears so, but I'd like to make sure]
sparkster4242 04-07-06, 11:11 PM	it has long been my stance that the ability to cast a spell of X level consisted of two things: 1) a spell slot of at least Xth level 2) a spellcasting ability score of at least 10 + X under this method, Improved Sigil: Krau would _not_ allow early entry into a PrC that depends upon the ability to cast Xth-level spells... the fact that the caster _can_ cast the spell doesnt necessarily mean he has the ability to do so. 8O take a look at this: Let's say i have a 1st-level fighter/7th-level cleric. If that character gets hit by a creature that causes level loss and becomes a 0-level fighter/7th-level cleric, can she pick up a third class without any penalties? When you lose a level, you lose your highest level. In a case where all levels are equal, you must randomly determine which one is lost. Thus, your example character would become a 1st-level fighter/6th-level cleric. Should a multiclass character's level in any class ever fall to zero, the character is no longer a member of that class. A character who had only two levels to begin with is no longer a multiclass character. For example, a 1st-level fighter/1st-level cleric who loses a level winds up as either a 1st-level fighter or a 1st-level cleric (50% chance for each). The rules on page 153 of the Players Handbook say a character who is resurrected immediately loses a level of experience, or a point of Constitution if the character is 1st level. If a multiclass character is brought back to life, (for instance, a 5th-level fighter/4th-level wizard) does the character get to choose which level is removed? Or is it the highest level that the character has attained? Would this level loss immediately result in the -20% XP loss if the levels differed by more than 1? You lose the highest level; this may actually remove an XP penalty by making character's class leels more even. as far as i know, this was never actually a rule - the 3.0 FAQ entry was new material. however, it _is_ pretty clear; the relevant passage in PHB3.5 is almost identical to the one from PHB3.0, so the 3.0 FAQ entry still applies - the highest class level is lost, not the highest (most recent) character level. the last time i presented this method of character building, it didnt get a very favorable response - i got the impression that, like the thought bottle, it was just too broken to be used on the CO boards :p