? 10th level of elemental savant worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

? 10th level of elemental savant worth it? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
jungwoomd
12-17-03, 10:20 AM I know that the general consensus in Wizard/Sorceror prestige classes is to avoid anything that loses caster level.

In this light, is the final level of elemental savant worth it. I understand that it is cool to be able to become an elemental with the immunity to flanking and crits as well as the movement and special powers but you also become vulnerable to the opposite element as well as being affected by magical circles.

Would it be wiser to take a level in either wizard or a different prestige class (ie Loremaster)?
catharz
12-17-03, 10:42 AM All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and no nongood summoned creatures can enter the area either. You must overcome a creature’s spell resistance in order to keep it at bay (as in the third function of protection from evil), but the deflection and resistance bonuses and the protection from mental control apply regardless of enemies’ spell resistance.

Assuming your character isn't summoned, they aren't hedged out by a Magic circle either.

That said, the lost caster level is a bit of a pain, and it might be worth delaying youur last level of Elemental savant to 18th or 19th, taking another prestige class before then.
Lord Arkhaven
12-17-03, 10:57 AM Speaking as someone with a Sorceror/Elemental Savant in their group I would say it's worth it. The savant is a broken class that will be nerfed eventually because of the massive DC bonuses it gets. The fire savant in our group has Spellcasting Prodigy and Bloodline of Fire so his fire spells are something like +6 DC and that's without Spell Focus (Evocations.)

One level is a hit but it won't stop you from getting 9th level spells. The elemental traits are an amazing layer of defense for a wizard plus air and fire give you a flight movement.
jungwoomd
12-17-03, 12:43 PM Can fire elemental savants also fly?

I thought that only air elementals could but please correct me if I am wrong.
Israfel666
12-17-03, 02:50 PM I suggest waiting 'till you get 9th level spells - at that point, it might be worth it.
jensun
12-17-03, 04:13 PM I would suggest not taking it at all.

You lose a caster level which is generally bad although not fatal.

However, it is also an issue that most of the benefits are obtainable in other ways.

Immunity to flanking is pretty worthless. It saves you from a +2 to hit mod but your a mage so you shouldnt generally be in melee. It also prevents sneak attacks but if you dont have Heavy Fortification by now you are selling yourself short.

The other advantages are movement and special abilities.

The air elemental really is the king of these. 100' fly speed with perfect manouverability would be hard to pass up if it were not for the fact that you can get as good, if not better, with Polymorph any Object or Shapechange both, of which are far more versatile.

The specials such as Whirlwind etc tend to be seriously limited in scope and have relatively low DC's. They also mostly work best when you are in melee combat, which is precisely where you shouldnt be.
Snow Savant
12-17-03, 04:30 PM It's not worth it. You are better off with a +1 Spellcaster/Level class.

And note, your PAO & Shapechange spells will give you the same benefits (actually, even better and more "mage-appropriate" forms to take). You are going to take these spells, aren't you? They are among the most versatile and utilitarian spells in the game in addition to creating lots of cheese & broken scenarios.

Stick with getting 20 levels of spellcasting levels. Your Mom will love you for it. :D
jensun
12-17-03, 04:53 PM Just to expand on my previous post the only time when I would take the 10th level of savant was if I was going epic and wanted to continue its progression.

They are very few PrC's which loose caster levels which are worth taking. The only ones which come to mind are:

Exalted Arcanist (dubious)
Celestial Mystic (cant recall if it loses the first level)
Eldritch Knight

The rest are best avoided. The only other PrC I would look at would be the Contemplative for the Sorceror in order to acces the Mysticism Domain. An unnamed +10-12 boost on all saves is well worth a single caster level.
Pathanus
12-17-03, 04:57 PM I think it is worth it for the mega immunities and movement (i like air and earth's the best). I would wait for the 10th level until you have 9th level spells, as already suggested.

To reduce the effectiveness of your vulnerability, try to get a ring of greater energy resistance of your opposite element (absorbs the first 30 points of damage) for only 44k.

Or create a custom one that makes you immune to your opposing element.

I think elemental savant with the right feats can be very effective, assuming he can overcome the need to use his opposed element when substituting energy types.

Path
jensun
12-17-03, 05:18 PM I think it is worth it for the mega immunities and movement

Which immunities are you talking about?

The energy immunnity is easily duplicated with a single level 7 spell (Energy Immunity) which lasts for 24 hours.

Immunity to flanking is pretty much worthless.

Immunity to poison is good but not worth a caster level.

Immunity to crits is gained by Heavy Fortification, which you should have at this level.

Immunity to spells which affect humanoids only, yippee!

The immunities to paralysis, sleep and stunning are all gained by 7th level.

The movement abilities are equalled and exceeded by using PaO or Shapechange which tend to be amongst the first spells chosen of their level because of their usefullness.

So remind me why you would want Elemental Savant 10 in a non epic game.
MarkusH
12-17-03, 05:35 PM Here's a question. Would Elemental Savant be worth it if the FIRST level is the one that costs you a spell level?

I have a feeling that most 3.5 Prestige classes that cost you a caster level will incur the cost at first level, precisely to avoid the "I'll take the first 9 then go off and do something else" issue. So when Complete Magician (or whatever they call it) comes out, it would be no suprise that they do so for the Elemental Savant.
MikeN
12-17-03, 08:16 PM Well, considering the MASSIVE (and massively stupid) ECL that Savage Species insists you pay for the priviledge of playing an elemental, the one-level loss isn't too bad...flying at will, being an outsider (can therefore use polymorph suite and not just shapechange for outsider form), etc. is just plain good.

Unless everybody in your campaign (PCs and especially NPC's/villians) is bleeding-edge uber it's not a bad choice to make.
jungwoomd
12-17-03, 09:27 PM I really appreciate all of the discussion. It has given me quite a bit to think about. For now, all of this is WAY in the future for my low level mage.
Nimrud
12-17-03, 11:01 PM I use an Air Elemental Savant, and I can tell you it's definitely worth it.

The immunities alone are great! They make your mage immune to rogues and (to some extent) monks. At 10th level, the ES becomes immune to crits (i.e. no sneak attack), poison (can't do INT damage to me), stunning (hey no stunning fist :P ). Immunities to paralysis and sleep are icing on the cake.

I still remember a scene in my campaign where the party rogue decided to off my character (long story). He won initiative and then throws a bunch of shurikens at me, 7 of them if I remember correctly.

I said (OOC): Why shurikens? They do all of 1 damage each.

The DM said: Make 7 fort saves, they are coated with poison.

I said: My character laughs insanely, does a little dance, moons the rogue and says "Kiss my ass, assassin boy!"

Elemental immunities rock.
Nimrud
12-17-03, 11:29 PM As an Air Elemental Savant, you are also immune to grappling. You can turn yourself into a whirlwind, and since nobody can grapple moving air, you can freely move out of the grapple (upwards usually - gotta love flying), reform out of reach and zap your assailant as necessary.

You may even be able to use the whirlwind ability to get around certain obstacles, e.g. barred windows, without having to memorise gaseous form or some other spell.

Flying is a great way to get out of harm's way. Having it on 24/7 is just fantastic. Because you have the movement mode of an air elemental, you get flight as a natural ability (i.e. as an air elemental). Natural flight is great for getting out of AMFs fast. You can't do that if you are using a spell or a magic item to fly. Similarly dispel magic or even an MDJ doesn't affect your flying ability, as it is a natural movement mode and not supernatural or spell-like.

Not having to eat or sleep or breathe and having darkvision also means you are operational in just about any environment, even underwater or in a vacuum, for any period of time.

Not having to breathe means you are not subject to death by suffocation. Very useful if you consider a certain very nasty druid spell, or a nasty assassin's weapon, the garrote (which by the way is really easy to remove - whirlwind).

There are just so many advantages, if you use your imagination. Totally worth one spellcaster level, in my opinion.
Pathanus
12-18-03, 03:30 AM By gaining immunities at 10th level: sleep (yes you don't have to "sleep" just rest to get spells), starvation (you don't need to eat), suffication (you don't need to breate), poison, paralysis (from monsters, spells, etc.), criticals/sneak attack/flanking, and energy immunity.

I like 100 ft. perfect movement from Air Elemental Savant, so you can throw out the Wings of Flying, or donate them to a buddy.

These immunities free up items for other purposes (no need for Heavy fort (+5) ability) and type changes to 'elemental' qualifying you for monsterous feats from Savage Species (maybe you want to take one) that you don't need a template addition.

It depends on the style you want to play. I'm sure there are some prestige classes out there that 1 level would make more of a difference in than Elemental Savant, but maybe not for certain characters.

Like everything, you have to weigh the pros and cons and see if it will be most beneficial.

There are spells in Manual of the Planes that raise Outsiders, if that would deter you from becoming 'elemental'.

Path
catharz
12-18-03, 03:48 AM If you don't take the 10th+ levels, you're just shooting your character in the foot. You'll loose elemental focus DC increases, epic feats, ability score increases and so on. Wow, and those ability increases just shaft earth savants even more then usual, and for no apparent reason.
Nimrud
12-18-03, 05:33 AM Immunity to spells affecting humanoids are not as useless as some think. That's because you still look like a humanoid. In most situations, your opponents will still try to cast "person" spells rather than the higher level "monster" versions.

"Always on" flying is great for moving silently, getting out of sight quickly (e.g. fly up to a shadowy corner of a room, cave, etc or hide under a bridge), and other tactical movements which you want to do but don't want to waste a spell on or don't have time. For example, to get to a better position to cast lightning bolt, you might want to fly up and then cast. With flight, it's just an MEA and zap. Otherwise, you would have to cast Fly, then move and zap in your next round. With Wings of Flying or winged boots, you still need to speak a command word (standard action), and they cost money and an item slot. Also Wings of Flying require some room to manoeuvre, and in each case you'd still be vulnerable to dispel.
Funny Slaughter
12-18-03, 07:01 AM i would also claim my side with the pros.
starting with an ecl is hard, but in the later career it gets more and more easy.

losing a caster-level late on is not that hard.
if it is worth alone for the abilities depends of your campaign, if not delay the 10th savant until CL20.

being able to progress as an epic elemental savant is also really important as catharz mentioned, there is absolutely no reason to skip these benefits.

gs
Funny
jensun
12-18-03, 12:22 PM Funny, I have already agreed that Elemental Savant is worth it if you are going epic. The increasing spell power abilities and Bonus Feats are well worthwhile espcially given the difficulty in increasing saves and high SR in Epic games. (this assumes Savant spell power isnt nerfed like the AcM and RW)

But, in a non-epic game which is capped at 20th level why would you lose that caster level when the majority of the benefits are easily obtained in other ways?

If you are a sorceror that is an additional ninth level spell which you do not know which is a major loss.

Its less of an issue for the Wizard as they can access all spells and therefore make better use of the crafting feats to offset the loss of additional spells prepared.
Nimrud
12-18-03, 12:37 PM Jensun,

Actually, I would be interested to know how you would be able to get immunity from stunning. Stunned wizard usually = dead wizard. It also seems to me to be one problem which is not easily solved. Is there a spell in 3.5 now which takes care of stunning? Thanks.
phoenxhwk
12-18-03, 01:39 PM Jensun,
You talk a lot about how it is easy to get all of those traits without the loss of caster level. I tend to disagree, but maybe it's because of my DMs. Our party rarely sees very powerful items with things like heavy fortification, and when we do, it's definitely not the wizard that gets them. Similar things can be said about all the rest of your points.

I really like classes like this that allow you to basically choose your special abilities instead of hoping your DM somehow gives them to you. This is similar to busting out Vow of Poverty on stingy DMs.
jensun
12-18-03, 02:49 PM Originally posted by Nimrud
Actually, I would be interested to know how you would be able to get immunity from stunning. Stunned wizard usually = dead wizard

Immunity to Stunning is obtained at level 7 so no need to lose caster levels for it.

As for access to equipment that is always campaign dependant. I base my opinions pretty much off the default character wealth by level values. A +1 Mithril Buckler of Heavy Fortification is only 37k, 18.5% of the average wealth of a level 15 character (the first level at which you can take Savant 10).

Each campaign is different so you need to tailor your build around that but here we are looking at the default array.

I would also add that crafting feats are one very useful way of working around such campaign restrictions.
Funny Slaughter
12-18-03, 06:15 PM of course you can get all the things with spells.

but first you have to use spell slots, compare these to the lost casterlevel, eventually they even out.
second, you are always vulnerable to dispel.
bad thing to fly and get dispelled. or be underwater...

use your spells for something better and enjoy the natural benefits of being an elemental.

earth savants for example love to come out of the ground, drop a spell and hide again.

gs
Funny
Nimrud
12-18-03, 10:01 PM Originally posted by jensun
Immunity to Stunning is obtained at level 7 so no need to lose caster levels for it.

Ah, I see what you are saying, I thought you meant to avoid the class altogether and get the immunities in other ways. Thus the emphasis on non-epic. Got it.

As for access to equipment that is always campaign dependant. I base my opinions pretty much off the default character wealth by level values. A +1 Mithril Buckler of Heavy Fortification is only 37k, 18.5% of the average wealth of a level 15 character (the first level at which you can take Savant 10).

Each campaign is different so you need to tailor your build around that but here we are looking at the default array.

True enough. But default array is rarely the way it's played, at least in my experience. Most DMs tend to want to control magic inventory and wealth. It's easy to deny availability of certain items, but once a class is allowed, you get your goodies. I find that playing a wizard, I spend most of my time and money on scribing spells and buying spell components, anyway.

I would also add that crafting feats are one very useful way of working around such campaign restrictions.

Crafting takes downtime and money. If a DM has a campaign restriction on magical inventory, you'd be sure he/she would control downtime and money as well.

Just to be clear, what I'm saying is that while losing one caster level may look bad on paper, one might find that the ES abilities are very worthwhile in actual play.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jungwoomd 12-17-03, 10:20 AM	I know that the general consensus in Wizard/Sorceror prestige classes is to avoid anything that loses caster level. In this light, is the final level of elemental savant worth it. I understand that it is cool to be able to become an elemental with the immunity to flanking and crits as well as the movement and special powers but you also become vulnerable to the opposite element as well as being affected by magical circles. Would it be wiser to take a level in either wizard or a different prestige class (ie Loremaster)?
catharz 12-17-03, 10:42 AM	All creatures within the area gain the effects of a protection from evil spell, and no nongood summoned creatures can enter the area either. You must overcome a creature’s spell resistance in order to keep it at bay (as in the third function of protection from evil), but the deflection and resistance bonuses and the protection from mental control apply regardless of enemies’ spell resistance. Assuming your character isn't summoned, they aren't hedged out by a Magic circle either. That said, the lost caster level is a bit of a pain, and it might be worth delaying youur last level of Elemental savant to 18th or 19th, taking another prestige class before then.
Lord Arkhaven 12-17-03, 10:57 AM	Speaking as someone with a Sorceror/Elemental Savant in their group I would say it's worth it. The savant is a broken class that will be nerfed eventually because of the massive DC bonuses it gets. The fire savant in our group has Spellcasting Prodigy and Bloodline of Fire so his fire spells are something like +6 DC and that's without Spell Focus (Evocations.) One level is a hit but it won't stop you from getting 9th level spells. The elemental traits are an amazing layer of defense for a wizard plus air and fire give you a flight movement.
jungwoomd 12-17-03, 12:43 PM	Can fire elemental savants also fly? I thought that only air elementals could but please correct me if I am wrong.
Israfel666 12-17-03, 02:50 PM	I suggest waiting 'till you get 9th level spells - at that point, it might be worth it.
jensun 12-17-03, 04:13 PM	I would suggest not taking it at all. You lose a caster level which is generally bad although not fatal. However, it is also an issue that most of the benefits are obtainable in other ways. Immunity to flanking is pretty worthless. It saves you from a +2 to hit mod but your a mage so you shouldnt generally be in melee. It also prevents sneak attacks but if you dont have Heavy Fortification by now you are selling yourself short. The other advantages are movement and special abilities. The air elemental really is the king of these. 100' fly speed with perfect manouverability would be hard to pass up if it were not for the fact that you can get as good, if not better, with Polymorph any Object or Shapechange both, of which are far more versatile. The specials such as Whirlwind etc tend to be seriously limited in scope and have relatively low DC's. They also mostly work best when you are in melee combat, which is precisely where you shouldnt be.
Snow Savant 12-17-03, 04:30 PM	It's not worth it. You are better off with a +1 Spellcaster/Level class. And note, your PAO & Shapechange spells will give you the same benefits (actually, even better and more "mage-appropriate" forms to take). You are going to take these spells, aren't you? They are among the most versatile and utilitarian spells in the game in addition to creating lots of cheese & broken scenarios. Stick with getting 20 levels of spellcasting levels. Your Mom will love you for it. :D
jensun 12-17-03, 04:53 PM	Just to expand on my previous post the only time when I would take the 10th level of savant was if I was going epic and wanted to continue its progression. They are very few PrC's which loose caster levels which are worth taking. The only ones which come to mind are: Exalted Arcanist (dubious) Celestial Mystic (cant recall if it loses the first level) Eldritch Knight The rest are best avoided. The only other PrC I would look at would be the Contemplative for the Sorceror in order to acces the Mysticism Domain. An unnamed +10-12 boost on all saves is well worth a single caster level.
Pathanus 12-17-03, 04:57 PM	I think it is worth it for the mega immunities and movement (i like air and earth's the best). I would wait for the 10th level until you have 9th level spells, as already suggested. To reduce the effectiveness of your vulnerability, try to get a ring of greater energy resistance of your opposite element (absorbs the first 30 points of damage) for only 44k. Or create a custom one that makes you immune to your opposing element. I think elemental savant with the right feats can be very effective, assuming he can overcome the need to use his opposed element when substituting energy types. Path
jensun 12-17-03, 05:18 PM	I think it is worth it for the mega immunities and movement Which immunities are you talking about? The energy immunnity is easily duplicated with a single level 7 spell (Energy Immunity) which lasts for 24 hours. Immunity to flanking is pretty much worthless. Immunity to poison is good but not worth a caster level. Immunity to crits is gained by Heavy Fortification, which you should have at this level. Immunity to spells which affect humanoids only, yippee! The immunities to paralysis, sleep and stunning are all gained by 7th level. The movement abilities are equalled and exceeded by using PaO or Shapechange which tend to be amongst the first spells chosen of their level because of their usefullness. So remind me why you would want Elemental Savant 10 in a non epic game.
MarkusH 12-17-03, 05:35 PM	Here's a question. Would Elemental Savant be worth it if the FIRST level is the one that costs you a spell level? I have a feeling that most 3.5 Prestige classes that cost you a caster level will incur the cost at first level, precisely to avoid the "I'll take the first 9 then go off and do something else" issue. So when Complete Magician (or whatever they call it) comes out, it would be no suprise that they do so for the Elemental Savant.
MikeN 12-17-03, 08:16 PM	Well, considering the MASSIVE (and massively stupid) ECL that Savage Species insists you pay for the priviledge of playing an elemental, the one-level loss isn't too bad...flying at will, being an outsider (can therefore use polymorph suite and not just shapechange for outsider form), etc. is just plain good. Unless everybody in your campaign (PCs and especially NPC's/villians) is bleeding-edge uber it's not a bad choice to make.
jungwoomd 12-17-03, 09:27 PM	I really appreciate all of the discussion. It has given me quite a bit to think about. For now, all of this is WAY in the future for my low level mage.
Nimrud 12-17-03, 11:01 PM	I use an Air Elemental Savant, and I can tell you it's definitely worth it. The immunities alone are great! They make your mage immune to rogues and (to some extent) monks. At 10th level, the ES becomes immune to crits (i.e. no sneak attack), poison (can't do INT damage to me), stunning (hey no stunning fist :P ). Immunities to paralysis and sleep are icing on the cake. I still remember a scene in my campaign where the party rogue decided to off my character (long story). He won initiative and then throws a bunch of shurikens at me, 7 of them if I remember correctly. I said (OOC): Why shurikens? They do all of 1 damage each. The DM said: Make 7 fort saves, they are coated with poison. I said: My character laughs insanely, does a little dance, moons the rogue and says "Kiss my ass, assassin boy!" Elemental immunities rock.
Nimrud 12-17-03, 11:29 PM	As an Air Elemental Savant, you are also immune to grappling. You can turn yourself into a whirlwind, and since nobody can grapple moving air, you can freely move out of the grapple (upwards usually - gotta love flying), reform out of reach and zap your assailant as necessary. You may even be able to use the whirlwind ability to get around certain obstacles, e.g. barred windows, without having to memorise gaseous form or some other spell. Flying is a great way to get out of harm's way. Having it on 24/7 is just fantastic. Because you have the movement mode of an air elemental, you get flight as a natural ability (i.e. as an air elemental). Natural flight is great for getting out of AMFs fast. You can't do that if you are using a spell or a magic item to fly. Similarly dispel magic or even an MDJ doesn't affect your flying ability, as it is a natural movement mode and not supernatural or spell-like. Not having to eat or sleep or breathe and having darkvision also means you are operational in just about any environment, even underwater or in a vacuum, for any period of time. Not having to breathe means you are not subject to death by suffocation. Very useful if you consider a certain very nasty druid spell, or a nasty assassin's weapon, the garrote (which by the way is really easy to remove - whirlwind). There are just so many advantages, if you use your imagination. Totally worth one spellcaster level, in my opinion.
Pathanus 12-18-03, 03:30 AM	By gaining immunities at 10th level: sleep (yes you don't have to "sleep" just rest to get spells), starvation (you don't need to eat), suffication (you don't need to breate), poison, paralysis (from monsters, spells, etc.), criticals/sneak attack/flanking, and energy immunity. I like 100 ft. perfect movement from Air Elemental Savant, so you can throw out the Wings of Flying, or donate them to a buddy. These immunities free up items for other purposes (no need for Heavy fort (+5) ability) and type changes to 'elemental' qualifying you for monsterous feats from Savage Species (maybe you want to take one) that you don't need a template addition. It depends on the style you want to play. I'm sure there are some prestige classes out there that 1 level would make more of a difference in than Elemental Savant, but maybe not for certain characters. Like everything, you have to weigh the pros and cons and see if it will be most beneficial. There are spells in Manual of the Planes that raise Outsiders, if that would deter you from becoming 'elemental'. Path
catharz 12-18-03, 03:48 AM	If you don't take the 10th+ levels, you're just shooting your character in the foot. You'll loose elemental focus DC increases, epic feats, ability score increases and so on. Wow, and those ability increases just shaft earth savants even more then usual, and for no apparent reason.
Nimrud 12-18-03, 05:33 AM	Immunity to spells affecting humanoids are not as useless as some think. That's because you still look like a humanoid. In most situations, your opponents will still try to cast "person" spells rather than the higher level "monster" versions. "Always on" flying is great for moving silently, getting out of sight quickly (e.g. fly up to a shadowy corner of a room, cave, etc or hide under a bridge), and other tactical movements which you want to do but don't want to waste a spell on or don't have time. For example, to get to a better position to cast lightning bolt, you might want to fly up and then cast. With flight, it's just an MEA and zap. Otherwise, you would have to cast Fly, then move and zap in your next round. With Wings of Flying or winged boots, you still need to speak a command word (standard action), and they cost money and an item slot. Also Wings of Flying require some room to manoeuvre, and in each case you'd still be vulnerable to dispel.
Funny Slaughter 12-18-03, 07:01 AM	i would also claim my side with the pros. starting with an ecl is hard, but in the later career it gets more and more easy. losing a caster-level late on is not that hard. if it is worth alone for the abilities depends of your campaign, if not delay the 10th savant until CL20. being able to progress as an epic elemental savant is also really important as catharz mentioned, there is absolutely no reason to skip these benefits. gs Funny
jensun 12-18-03, 12:22 PM	Funny, I have already agreed that Elemental Savant is worth it if you are going epic. The increasing spell power abilities and Bonus Feats are well worthwhile espcially given the difficulty in increasing saves and high SR in Epic games. (this assumes Savant spell power isnt nerfed like the AcM and RW) But, in a non-epic game which is capped at 20th level why would you lose that caster level when the majority of the benefits are easily obtained in other ways? If you are a sorceror that is an additional ninth level spell which you do not know which is a major loss. Its less of an issue for the Wizard as they can access all spells and therefore make better use of the crafting feats to offset the loss of additional spells prepared.
Nimrud 12-18-03, 12:37 PM	Jensun, Actually, I would be interested to know how you would be able to get immunity from stunning. Stunned wizard usually = dead wizard. It also seems to me to be one problem which is not easily solved. Is there a spell in 3.5 now which takes care of stunning? Thanks.
phoenxhwk 12-18-03, 01:39 PM	Jensun, You talk a lot about how it is easy to get all of those traits without the loss of caster level. I tend to disagree, but maybe it's because of my DMs. Our party rarely sees very powerful items with things like heavy fortification, and when we do, it's definitely not the wizard that gets them. Similar things can be said about all the rest of your points. I really like classes like this that allow you to basically choose your special abilities instead of hoping your DM somehow gives them to you. This is similar to busting out Vow of Poverty on stingy DMs.
jensun 12-18-03, 02:49 PM	Originally posted by Nimrud Actually, I would be interested to know how you would be able to get immunity from stunning. Stunned wizard usually = dead wizard Immunity to Stunning is obtained at level 7 so no need to lose caster levels for it. As for access to equipment that is always campaign dependant. I base my opinions pretty much off the default character wealth by level values. A +1 Mithril Buckler of Heavy Fortification is only 37k, 18.5% of the average wealth of a level 15 character (the first level at which you can take Savant 10). Each campaign is different so you need to tailor your build around that but here we are looking at the default array. I would also add that crafting feats are one very useful way of working around such campaign restrictions.
Funny Slaughter 12-18-03, 06:15 PM	of course you can get all the things with spells. but first you have to use spell slots, compare these to the lost casterlevel, eventually they even out. second, you are always vulnerable to dispel. bad thing to fly and get dispelled. or be underwater... use your spells for something better and enjoy the natural benefits of being an elemental. earth savants for example love to come out of the ground, drop a spell and hide again. gs Funny
Nimrud 12-18-03, 10:01 PM	Originally posted by jensun Immunity to Stunning is obtained at level 7 so no need to lose caster levels for it. Ah, I see what you are saying, I thought you meant to avoid the class altogether and get the immunities in other ways. Thus the emphasis on non-epic. Got it. As for access to equipment that is always campaign dependant. I base my opinions pretty much off the default character wealth by level values. A +1 Mithril Buckler of Heavy Fortification is only 37k, 18.5% of the average wealth of a level 15 character (the first level at which you can take Savant 10). Each campaign is different so you need to tailor your build around that but here we are looking at the default array. True enough. But default array is rarely the way it's played, at least in my experience. Most DMs tend to want to control magic inventory and wealth. It's easy to deny availability of certain items, but once a class is allowed, you get your goodies. I find that playing a wizard, I spend most of my time and money on scribing spells and buying spell components, anyway. I would also add that crafting feats are one very useful way of working around such campaign restrictions. Crafting takes downtime and money. If a DM has a campaign restriction on magical inventory, you'd be sure he/she would control downtime and money as well. Just to be clear, what I'm saying is that while losing one caster level may look bad on paper, one might find that the ES abilities are very worthwhile in actual play.