Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ixian_Device 11-12-06, 11:09 PM	Now that I've succeeded in getting your attention, I would appreciate it if you assisted me in constructing/critisizing my build. Background: Every neophyte DM's favorite campaign setting is one with low magic. It's also my least favorite restriction, but beggars can't be choosers when DMs are in short supply. So here I come to the CO boards seeking assistance in constructing a character which kicks butt in a low magic setting. Here are the relevant restrictions/ information: Limited Spell Casting: You can't use classes that provide greater than 4th level spells by 20th level. No bard, sor/wiz, cleric or druid. Ranger, hexblade, and paladin are about as good as you're going to get for spells. No monk: However, the unnarmed swordsage varient is allowed. (remove armor and martial weapon proficiencies from swordsage, add in unnarmed strike progression). Don't complain about justification... it's just the way it is. Core + 4 Completes + PHB 2 + DMG 2 + ToB: That's the book set allowed. No more, no less. I think it's a pretty broad book set given the restricitons. Low Level: It starts at 3rd level and may or may not ever exceed 10th level. So builds should be geared for these low levels. Main Opponents: It's set in middle earth. So the main baddies are going to be orcs, trolls, ogres, elves, and maybe some undead. Rare Magic Items: Proposed builds basically need to be item independant, because crafting magical items is restricted to NPCs only and are awarded only via completing quests or killing monsters with random treasure. In otherwords, there is no ye olde magick shoppe in town. Annoying? Yes. 32 Point Buy: That's how we roll the stats. PHB Races Only: With the added restriction that there are no halflings or gnomes... it's set in the first age of middle earth. All elf subraces are up for grabs though. Orcs, being the enemy, would probably be a bad idea. Crusader Recovery Mechanic: We will use Tleilaxu_Ghola's interpretation, not Customer Service's interpretation of how the Crusader recovers and is granted maneuvers. Additional Musings: Unnarmed attack seems to be a good way to go, given that you'll never be bereft of your fists. However, swords will be available that much I know for sure. What kind of swords are available, that I don't know. Tome of Battle with it's pseudo vancian maneuver system seems to be the ultimate source of power in this campaign. Given the repetitiveness of monster type (ie humanoid, giant, or undead), I think capitalizing on this would not be a bad idea. The DM said most magical weapons will be "bane" weapons, which is an attempt to follow the tolkien feel. I have no complaints here; bane weapons kick ass. The low probability of encountering magical foes essentially equates to the low occurance of will-saving throws. Therefore, I don't think will save needs to be optimized. I could be wrong. If you know of some common "low magic" will saving throws that I need to watch out for, let me know. Healing will be a big problem I think. So I want to incorporate as much self-healing as possible. This basically means crusader levels are required... or dragon shaman... or something else? I'd appreciate help here. My Build Ideas (Starting packages): A Party's Best Friend Race: Human Build: Warblade 2/Crusader 1 Feats: EWP(Spiked Chain), (Vital Recovery), Extra Granted Maneuver Maneuvers: Wolf Fang Strike (w), Crusader's Strike (c), Vanguard Strike (c), Leading the Attack (c), Stone Bones (c), Charging Minotaur (c), Steel Wind (w), Moment of Perfect Mind (w), Stance of Clarity (w), Iron Guard's Glare (c) The Benefits: Uncanny Dodge Delay damage pool 5 + furious counterstrike Reach = Good. Reach + Iron Guard's Glare means most of the attacks will be directed towards me (or they suffer a -4 to hit if they don't target me and I threaten them). Weapon Aptitude Lots of stuff to help the allies: Two maneuvers which grant +4 to attack if I hit an enemy + Iron Guard's glare Boss Killing defense: Stance of Clarity = +2 to AC versus one opponent, -2 versus others. If no one else is around, this is just free AC. Hulk Smash! Race: Human Build: Barbarian 1/Crusader 2 Feats: (Extra Rage), Improved Buckler Defense, Extra Granted Maneuver Maneuvers:: Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Leading the Attack, Stone Bones, Charging Minotaur, Martial Stance, Iron Guard Glare. The Benefits: Rage 3/day Optimized for Two-handed, to maximize AC & Damage Self healing abilities with martial stance and crusader's strike Wizened Master Race: Human Build: Swordsage 2/Crusader 1 Feats: (EWP: Spiked Chain), Shadow Blade, Weapon Finesse Maneuvers: Crusader: Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Leading the Attack, Stone Bones, Charging Minotaur, Martial Stance Swordsage: Shadow Blade Technique, Burning Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Sapphire Nightmare blade, Clinging Shadow Strike, Sudden Leap, Might Throw, Island of Blades, The Benefits: SAD for attack and damage. Reach to keep foes at bay and synergizes with flanking tactics. Spiked Chain is two-handed, which allows for the maximization of a small strength bonus. 14 STR and 16 DEX for example would get +6 to damage. Back up maneuvers for when swordsage maneuvers run out, ie can switch over to crusader maneuvers. Lots of maneuvers to choose from Good Base Saves: +2/+3/+3 Wis to AC in light AC, plus good dex synergy. Self healing via crusader's strike & martial stance What I want: Can you tell me which of these starting packages is best for the restrictions I describe above? What additional suggestions do you have? Can you devise some better builds? Are there any good options outside of ToB (within the book set)? Thanks in advance for your help
hogarth 11-12-06, 11:23 PM	It looks like Dragon Shaman would be permitted (since it's in PHB 2); it would provide you with some healing, but it wouldn't be very Tolkienish-feeling.
Ixian_Device 11-12-06, 11:28 PM	meh, fast healing 1 is good, but it will only ever bring you back up to half-health. Personally, I'm a fan of the first package I made. It has all the healing one would ever want at 3rd level (with no magic available). The only problem is the saves: 5/0/0. With little luck of having a good wisdom or dexterity, he's just asking for pain. Luckily there aren't many spells to worry about in a low magic campaign. :P Any ideas on how to incorporate ranger? Favored Enemy sounds like a good idea in this kind of limited monster campaign.
PhoenixInferno 11-13-06, 12:24 AM	Did he say explicity it was a Middle Earth game or did he say Tolkien-esque? Because this might be Age of Worms.
Ixian_Device 11-13-06, 12:25 AM	Did he say explicity it was a Middle Earth game or did he say Tolkien-esque? Because this might be Age of Worms. Definately home-brewed. I'm helping him design the setting... though much to my chagrin he's hell-bent on the low magic stuff. As compensation, he allowed Tome of Battle.
temillion 11-13-06, 12:31 AM	A paladin at low levels might really be an option. Work on a high charisma score, and at these levels, saving throws won't be an issue. Not to mention the immunity to fear and disease which sound nifty as well You'll also pick up some limited healing, though more with your spell list, on top of that you'll have your mount. Is it perfect? Nope, but at low levels you might not have the feats of the fighter, but there won't be much that can touch you.
Ixian_Device 11-13-06, 12:37 AM	Well pally's okay. At low levels the lay on hands provides a marginal healing ability. Say if I had a +3 cha mod I could heal 9 HP per day... that's a far cry from being able to heal 6 HP per encounter just for recovering a maneuver or healing 2 HP every time you hit someone. Plus there's the whole lawful stupid bit... I guess I'm a little jaded against the paladin's alignment restriction. I prefer to play evil characters. But you're right about the saves. With a decent CHA, you're gonna have pretty good saves.
jstorrie 11-13-06, 01:02 AM	One thing you'll definitely be low on will be healing. As such, a Paladin with the Sacred Healing turning feat may be a good idea. Kensai is a nice prestige class in low-magic settings, too, to make sure you can get that Holy Whatever Greatsword you'll want. Without Marshal to exchange a feat, you won't get SH before CL6, so you might want to start with Ftr1/Pal2, as Human 1 Fighter Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Improved Bull Rush 2 Paladin 3 Paladin Combat Expertise ... 4 Paladin 5 Paladin 6 Fighter Sacred Healing, Shock Trooper 7 Kensai 8 Kensai 9 Kensai Extra Turning etc...
efraker 11-13-06, 01:02 AM	I think that the party in question would benefit greatly from a Dragon Shaman. It's the only good healer left available. I'd probably just play Swordsage/3 with high dex, wis, and a chainshirt, and focus on interdiction and obfuscation via Shadow Hand and Setting Sun maneuvers.
ChristopherGroves 11-13-06, 01:08 AM	One thing you'll definitely be low on will be healing. As such, a Paladin with the Sacred Healing turning feat may be a good idea. Kensai is a nice prestige class in low-magic settings, too, to make sure you can get that Holy Whatever Greatsword you'll want. Without Marshal to exchange a feat, you won't get SH before CL6, so you might want to start with Ftr1/Pal2, as Human 1 Fighter Power Attack, Weapon Focus, Improved Bull Rush 2 Paladin 3 Paladin Combat Expertise ... 4 Paladin 5 Paladin 6 Fighter Sacred Healing, Shock Trooper 7 Kensai 8 Kensai 9 Kensai Improved Trip etc... This is the kind of thing I'd suggest as well. Pally/Ranger leading to Kensai ... or Knight could be cool I suppose.
Ixian_Device 11-13-06, 01:12 AM	Sacred healing is an interesting option I had not considered. The problem: You won't be able to get it until 6th level at the earliest (pally is the only class allowed which gives turning and it gets turning at 4th level, and you need to wait until 6th level to get the next feat). So that's 3 levels without a viable healing method... not so good. I still don't get what's so great about the dragon shaman. At 6th level they get a souped up lay on hands ability, and they can have an aura which brings you up to half health. That's all well and good, but they pretty much suck for anything else... at least as far as I can see. Am I missing something awesome about the dragon shaman?
ChristopherGroves 11-13-06, 01:26 AM	You'll get lay on hands before that if you go paladin.
Belabras 11-13-06, 03:07 AM	Sacred healing is an interesting option I had not considered. The problem: You won't be able to get it until 6th level at the earliest (pally is the only class allowed which gives turning and it gets turning at 4th level, and you need to wait until 6th level to get the next feat). So that's 3 levels without a viable healing method... not so good. I still don't get what's so great about the dragon shaman. At 6th level they get a souped up lay on hands ability, and they can have an aura which brings you up to half health. That's all well and good, but they pretty much suck for anything else... at least as far as I can see. Am I missing something awesome about the dragon shaman? The Breath Weapon can be pretty damn kick ass, especially in a low magic setting. Otherwise, the fast healing is ok, and the lay hands like ability is also merely ok. They make a decent support melee fighter too, but in the end, their hook is the Breath Weapon.
nittanytbone 11-13-06, 08:06 AM	So... You're low on healing... And magic... And you know what the enemies will be... Call me old-fashioned, but I think a straight ranger fits the bill here. Maybe Rogue 1/Ranger 2, planning on taking more ranger levels (for the trapfinding and +1d6 SA). Favored enemy will really help you out, the archery combat style is nice for low-magic games (your AC is crap, so you want to stay out of melee range), the spells are as good as you're going to get, the animal companion makes a useful mount for overland travel, and you get a whole host of useful skills and abilities. The heal skill in-class will help with HP recovery (overnight resting, dealing with poisons, etc) and eventually you get some cure spells (not overwhelming, I know, but its the best you can get). Improved favored enemy could be really effective around level 6.
Brol_The_Mighty 11-13-06, 08:56 AM	I would agree about the Ranger being a good (but vanilla) option. Would suggest taking the Improved Favored Enemy feat, as well as the Natural Bond(I think this is it?) feat to increase your effective lvl for your Animal Companion.
HoshiAdam 11-13-06, 09:26 AM	Scout/Ranger might be more effective than straight ranger or rogue/ranger, in the short term. Skirmish bonus damage is great early on, especially if you go with the archery combat style.
kilroo 11-13-06, 09:56 AM	Am I missing something awesome about the dragon shaman? I'd say really the only thing you've "missed" is that in a low-magic campaign where the best on-the-spot healer available is a Paladin (or Crusader? I don't have ToB; I gather Crusaders can do some healing work eventually but I don't know how much how soon) with Ranger not too far behind...fast healing even only to 1/2 hit points could help a lot with the number of healing spells you need and don't have.
LordBOB777 11-13-06, 10:06 AM	Since its low magic I would seriously suggest you start off as a Dragon Shaman or at least take a 1 level dip, so you can pick 3 Auras. Fast healing, even though its only to 1/2 max HP, can lessen the load of your healer/semi-healer. The breath weapon is also an awesome ability, but since your only going to be low level i dont know how good you could really be. Energy Shield is too good not to be mentioned. GET IT!!!! Senses helps with a few skill as well as initiative. And anything that could help you go first is a must. Use your Dragon Totem to pick a Dragon with Water Breathing, because thats something that could come in handy.
PhaedrusXY 11-13-06, 11:38 AM	A decently built spiked chain tripper should do great in this type of setting, unless the DM uses ranged attacks at hard to close distances alot. If you get the rest of the party to go along with it, your best bet would be for everyone to have stealth capabilities and ranged attacks, however. Then you can use "guerilla" tactics as much as possible, and avoid taking damage. I think ranger and anything that gives you the capability to heal would be recommended for class choices. A level or two of barbarian for rage and fast movement never hurt anyone, either.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-13-06, 01:39 PM	I think Ixian_Device has a pretty good healing build as is... For those of you who don't have ToB, allow me to explain: Vital Recovery (at 3rd level) heals you automatically 6 HP once per encounter if you recover a maneuver. Since his crusader will recover maneuvers automatically on the 3rd round, he basically gets auto healing 6 HP on the third round. Throw in martial stance, and he can heal 2 HP every time he scores a hit. Throw in crusader's strike and now he can expend a maneuver, make an attack, and heal himself 1d6 + 2 damage. All these tactics are available to a 1st level crusader, which is probably why most of the builds presented have a single crusader dip. All of these healing techniques work in combat and don't detract from the character's ability to continue to make hits. That's very attractive to me. I think a swordsage/crusader with a focus on crusader is the answer for this situation. Use the crusader dominant pattern I present in my "Art of Multiclass Martial Adept" thread X1/S2/X+4/S+1/X+2/S+1/X+2/S+1/X+2/S+1/X+3 Where X's are crusader levels, and S's are swordsage levels. That's basically what you have a start for with your "Wizened Master" stub build. The SAD approach (dex-oriented) is good, but I think it may cost you too many feats. A swordsage will want adaptive style pretty bad. Vital recovery is actually pretty good for these levels, so I'd suggest getting that too. A modification of your build: Race: Human Build: Swordsage 2/Crusader 1 Feats: (Vital Recovery), Adaptive Style, (Weapon Focus [Your Pick of Discipline], Vexing Flanker Maneuvers: Crusader: Crusader's Strike, Vanguard Strike, Leading the Attack, Stone Bones, Charging Minotaur, Martial Stance Swordsage: Shadow Blade Technique, Burning Blade, Wolf Fang Strike, Sapphire Nightmare blade, Clinging Shadow Strike, Sudden Leap, Might Throw, Island of Blades, Stance of Clarity With 32 point-buy, I'd go: 16 STR, 14 CON, 16 DEX, 14 WIS, Int 8, CHA 8 Dump cha because your good wis-score gives you more than cha gives to this build. Skills will be okay with 8 int. You'll at least have 4 skills maxed out, probably close to 5 skills maxed. So at 3rd level your AB is: +7 (3 STR + 2 BAB + 1 Focus +1 MWK). Not too shabby. Now if you use island of blades and vexing flanker, you can throw another +4 onto your AB. Wield a 2 handed weapon, since swordsages don't benefit from shields. Your AC will be 19 (4 AC + 3 DEX + 2 WIS + 10 Base) at 3rd level. Use stance of clarity versus single opponents to boost your AC up to 21 if you think you'll need it. Added bonus: this varient has +4 to initiative...
FeceMan 11-13-06, 01:59 PM	Go hexblade with improved familiar. Your baleful polymorph will be the envy of every other character. (Except hexblades need to have more spells per day because they are spontaneous casters.) Umm...assassins are always fun, too. Really, though, ToB seems like the way to go (yay for spellcasting that isn't really spells but okay it is). Maybe try the ruby knight vindicator? You'll get maneuevers and healing.
Sita Ram 11-13-06, 03:09 PM	CAn you use variants?? and can you use flaws or traits? If so. I always enjoy the WAM BAM mover. Barbarian, Bear Warrior(complete warrior),Warshaper(complete warrior) combo. Also If you can use TOB. Add anything that gives a boost to movement. That way you can power attack while chargng in. BOOOM!!!! Then I believe there is a first lvl manuever that allows you to swift jump if you still have movement. Rinse and repeat. Just a thought
Skrimshaw 11-13-06, 03:11 PM	I'm with Fecaman, If I were playing in this game I would push the limits of an Arcane class.
Skrimshaw 11-13-06, 04:05 PM	I just thought of something. The best healing class, based on the information you gave) would be Favored Soul Stop at lvl 8 and go into a combat oriented PrC or pick up another class altogether Paladin offers some synergy alternately the Afore-mentioned hexblade with Arcane disciple (healing domain) should provide a good amount of healing magic
Ixian_Device 11-13-06, 04:59 PM	No can do on the favored soul. See the OP You can't use classes that provide greater than 4th level spells by 20th level Favored Soul gets 9th level spells at 18th level, and are therefore disqualified. Go hexblade with improved familiar. Your baleful polymorph will be the envy of every other character. (Except hexblades need to have more spells per day because they are spontaneous casters.) Nice... in theory. But I wouldn't get baleful polymorph until 14th level at the earliest (and then it would be like once per day). I don't anticipate this campaign exceeding 10th level, so sweet "high level" spells just isn't going to happen. I doubt we'll ever be able to cast anything higher than 2nd level... I believe I mentioned this in the OP somewhere. CAn you use variants?? and can you use flaws or traits? If so. I always enjoy the WAM BAM mover. Barbarian, Bear Warrior(complete warrior),Warshaper(complete warrior) combo. Also If you can use TOB. Add anything that gives a boost to movement. That way you can power attack while chargng in. BOOOM!!!! Then I believe there is a first lvl manuever that allows you to swift jump if you still have movement. Rinse and repeat. Just a thought I know we can use varient classes, but I'm not sure about flaws. If flaws are available, I'd definately be in a better position. I hope, given the lack of magic and stuff, that I may be able to talk my DM into granting us a higher point-buy and allow flaws... we'll see. But anyways, your bear warrior idea... sounds nice. Bear Warrior won't happen until 8th level at the earliest though. The lead up wouldn't be too hard though. All I would need is a barbarian dip... so my "Hulk Smash" build would work. I'm mainly concerned with the levels 3-8. I think that's where most of the play will be. So PrCs really need to be low entry cost (or have entry costs that are worth-while). Bear Warrior's pretty easy to get into (need rage, power attack, and BAB +7) and is thus a decent suggestion for a PrC. I guess the biggest questions that I have are: Besides healing (I think Crusader is sufficient for that), what other tricks can I squeeze into this? I was thinking of taking up Tleilaxu_Ghola's suggestion and going with the Swordsage/Crusader. If I wanted to use AoOs a lot, I could drop vexing flanker and add in combat reflexes at 3rd. The pick up thicket of blades via martial stance at 6th level. Combine with a reach weapon for the win... What other options are there besides AoOs? Power attack?
temillion 11-13-06, 05:46 PM	What about: Ranger 2/Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 2/ Master Thrower 5/ Choose favorite enemy: Orc Pump Int for the swashbuckler abilities You might swap the fighter levels for the swashbuckler to get you feats quicker Master thrower opens the door to dagger madness
Ixian_Device 11-13-06, 07:01 PM	Healing? I'm not seeing it in that build... Though if you swapped swashbucker for crusader... Besides int to damage, what does swashbuckler do for me?
NatchFeral 11-13-06, 08:12 PM	Paladin 4/Crusader 6/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 Focus on White Raven and Devoted Spirit.
Rhonin the Big 11-13-06, 08:28 PM	Little to no magic, little to no healing. Just go full crusader, in master_ghola's ToB compendium I have a build known as Stirge Immortal Juggernaut of Pelor which can tank well and heal well. If you need a secondary fighter, swashbuckler3/fighter2/swordsage1 is the best start for a finesser. At level6 pick up a shadow hand manuever and stance, its just the right level for Shadow Blade with a sai. Against melee-based enemies getting initiative first = dead opposition. Will he allow Magic of Incarnum? It is low-magic, but there's nothing arcane or divine about meldshaping. If allowed, go Incarnate.
Tweedledope 11-13-06, 09:05 PM	Problem with the Crusader builds is that you can really only heal yourself...
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-13-06, 09:14 PM	Problem with the Crusader builds is that you can really only heal yourself... Open your mouth for a second, If your attack hits, you or an ally within 10 feet of you heals 1d6 points of damage +1 per initiator level (maximum +5) feel free to insert foot now.
temillion 11-13-06, 09:17 PM	What you don't get in this build is healing. Assuming as you avoid melee combat and focus on ranged combat, you might be able to minimlize the healing needed. The 3 levels of swashbuckler new you: Good bab, d10, Weapon Finess, and a Reflex Bonus. The big reason to take it though is the extra int damage. Remember, by the 10th level you should be throwing at least 8 daggers each dealing your int mod in addational damage. Depending on how sick you want to be, you can take a 1 level dip in Rogue and pick up a +1d6 sneak attack. That gets added to each dagger, not just one after all. Picking up trapfinding might be a good thing too. If your planning an int based build, you'll have the skill points after all. What you might end up doing is maxing out search, disable device, heal, hide, move silently, and a few others. This way you'll be able to play a few more rolls. While the heal skill is no match for a wand of clw, it's all I can offer with this build.
NatchFeral 11-13-06, 09:32 PM	Rather than straight Crusader, I think the Pally 4/Crus 6/RKV 10 gives bonuses to saves, access to status enhancer spells. Given that magical items are hard to come by, this may be the only way to get these effects for large portions of game time.
temillion 11-13-06, 09:38 PM	What about Ranger 6/Darkwood Stalker X That's a class dedicated to orc killing if I've ever seen it.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 11-13-06, 09:56 PM	Daggers have a range increment of 10', unless you want to take a -4 to all your attacks to stay outside the normal 30' movement range (but still within typical charging range), you're still going to get hit. The swordsage/crusader can heal himself, allies, has a good skill list with some social skills, average of 5+int skills, almost all good saves at 3rd level (2/3/3) a good wisdom, dex, and con. He lacks trap busting abilities, true, but you can't have it all. Besides, not the entire party can be ranged... someone has to tank to cover them. Which brings me to an interesting concern... swordsage has kind of low HP for a front-liner. I wish I could work in warblade... if only the saves of a crusader/warblade weren't so dismal. One option to consider: Race: Human Build Stub: Warblade 3 Feats: Martial Study (Crusader's Strike), (Martial Stance [Martial Spirit]), Vital Recovery. It has all the healing tricks you wanted... though at a hefty cost. The nice thing is you have 1 2nd level maneuver to work with. (I recommend rabid wolf strike as a good finishing maneuver). Pump intelligence to 14 to get +2 on ref saves. Your will save is still going to suffer though. Perhaps more elegant: Race: Human Build Stub: Crusader 3 Feats: Extra Granted Maneuver, (Improved Buckler Defense), Vital Recovery. Similar to warblade, but bring cha to 14 to give a +2 on will saves. I'd get battle leader's charge and combine with leading the charge for +13 damage on charges. If you get hit, shift damage to delayed damage pool and use crusader's strike in conjuction with a switch to martial stance. That should clear out your damage pool in time while also allowing you to deal damage. The advantage here: You can wear full plate & have buckler + 2 handed weapon. That means your AC should be fairly good (8 + 1 shield + 1 dex = 20). I dunno, the swordsage/crusader still looks best to me. If you can figure out how to get the AC to 20 it's almost as good as the tank crusader I describe above, has much better saves, has all the same healing mojo, plus a wide versatility of tactics to employ in a given battle.
Tweedledope 11-13-06, 09:58 PM	Open your mouth for a second, feel free to insert foot now. Mmm....Skechers... You see, I hate the mechanics behind the Crusader so I have very little knoweldge of their School...my own fault really. Sorry TG.
FeceMan 11-13-06, 10:48 PM	Nice... in theory. But I wouldn't get baleful polymorph until 14th level at the earliest (and then it would be like once per day). Heh, I was mostly joking, as the hexblade isn't exactly a powerhouse. RKV, though = love.