A 3/4 BAB class with full caster progression? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A 3/4 BAB class with full caster progression? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Knightwolfe
09-22-05, 02:04 AM Are there any - preferably ones that do not have hefty feat requirements? I'm making a gish build that at the moment has +18 BAB and a CL 17th, but would like to shift it so that it is +16 BAB and CL 19.

For this, I need a class of at least 5-level progression that has 3/4 BAB and full caster progression. Note that I've already used Dragonslayer in the build, so that won't fit the bill.

Any help please? Build is below - I'm looking to replace Spellsword with whatever works.
Knightwolfe
09-22-05, 02:05 AM Actually, since this will help, here is the build so far. The DM gives everyone a feat at first level, and we use LA buyoff per UA.

Aasimar: +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom, Darkvision 60 ft, Outsider Type, +2 Listen/Spot, Daylight 1/Day, Resistance 5/Acid, Cold, Electricity. Level Adjustment +1

Level 1 – Battle Sorc 1 Dodge, Iron Will
Level 2 – Battle Sorc 2
Level 3 – Battle Sorc 3 Celestial Bloodline
Level 4 – Battle Sorc 4
Level 5 – Battle Sorc 5
Level 6 – Battle Sorc 6 Outsider Wings
Level 7 – DragSlayer 1 Aura of Courage, +1 Damage vs. Dragons
Level 8 – Spellsword 1 Ignore ASF 10%
Level 9 – Spellsword 2 Hover, Battle Caster
Level 10 – Spellsword 3 Ignore ASF 15%
Level 11 – Spellsword 4 Channel Spell 3/Day
Level 12 – Spellsword 5 Ignore ASF 20%, Track
Level 13 – Witch Hunter 1 Detect Evil/Will, Smite Evil 1/Day
Level 14 – Witch Hunter 2 Kami’s Grace (Cha to Saves)
Level 15 – Dragslayer 2 Arcane Strike
Level 16 – Dragslayer 3
Level 17 – Dragslayer 4
Level 18 – Dragslayer 5 Leadership
Level 19 – Dragslayer 6
Level 20 – Dragslayer 7
X-Codes
09-22-05, 02:13 AM Theres Sacred Exorcist from CD; although you can't qualify for it until level 10.
Zathyr
09-22-05, 02:14 AM Are there any - preferably ones that do not have hefty feat requirements? I'm making a gish build that at the moment has +18 BAB and a CL 17th, but would like to shift it so that it is +16 BAB and CL 19.

For this, I need a class of at least 5-level progression that has 3/4 BAB and full caster progression. Note that I've already used Dragonslayer in the build, so that won't fit the bill.

Any help please? Build is below - I'm looking to replace Spellsword with whatever works.

I'm assuming you mean for an arcane caster. There are some cleric-ish PrC's that are actually open to arcane casters as well, like Sacred Exorcist and ... well I can't think of any others off-hand, but I think there were.. Maybe not. Any reason you don't want to go with Eldrich Knight? Or are you already taking 10 levels of it?
catharz
09-22-05, 02:17 AM Ya, Sacred Exorcist looks like your best bet.
dawgfan
09-22-05, 02:57 AM Also see if your DM will let you use the Half Celestial template from BoED as its only a +2, if he does then drop aasimar and go half celestial as that will save you a lot of feats to get your wings and being better using them.
Knightwolfe
09-22-05, 03:14 AM Thanks for all the advice guys!

I can't believe I overlooked the Eldritch Knight, and I don't think my DM will allow Sacred Exorcist.

That said, what are your opinions on the whole BAB/CL thing in the first place? Do you think the loss of 9th level spells is worth +2 BAB and the ability to Channel Spells?
colm_l
09-22-05, 03:49 AM Are there any - preferably ones that do not have hefty feat requirements? I'm making a gish build that at the moment has +18 BAB and a CL 17th, but would like to shift it so that it is +16 BAB and CL 19.

You appear to actually have BAB 18 & CL 13 (dragonslayer is 1/2 CL prog).

Since you're losing spells for a 3/4 BAB advance & full spellcasting variant class you should probably stick with it.

Level 1 – Battle Sorc 1 Dodge, Iron Will
Level 2 – Battle Sorc 2
Level 3 – Battle Sorc 3 Celestial Bloodline
Level 4 – Battle Sorc 4
Level 5 – Battle Sorc 5
Level 6 – Battle Sorc 6 Outsider Wings
Level 7 – DragSlayer 1 Aura of Courage, +1 Damage vs. Dragons
Level 8 – Battle Sorc 7
Level 9 – Battle Sorc 8 Hover, Battle Caster
Level 10 – Battle Sorc 9
Level 11 – Battle Sorc 10
Level 12 – Battle Sorc 11 Track
Level 13 – Witch Hunter 1 Detect Evil/Will, Smite Evil 1/Day
Level 14 – Witch Hunter 2 Kami’s Grace (Cha to Saves)
Level 15 – Dragslayer 2 Arcane Strike
Level 16 – Dragslayer 3
Level 17 – Dragslayer 4
Level 18 – Dragslayer 5 Leadership
Level 19 – Dragslayer 6
Level 20 – Dragslayer 7

for BAB 17 & CL 15

A better one is

Level 1 – Battle Sorc 1 Dodge, Iron Will
Level 2 – Battle Sorc 2
Level 3 – Battle Sorc 3 Celestial Bloodline
Level 4 – Battle Sorc 4
Level 5 – Battle Sorc 5
Level 6 – Battle Sorc 6 Outsider Wings
Level 7 – Battle Sorc 7
Level 8 – Battle Sorc 8
Level 9 – DragSlayer 1 Aura of Courage, +1 Damage vs. Dragons, Hover, Battle Caster
Level 10 – Battle Sorc 9
Level 11 – Battle Sorc 10
Level 12 – Battle Sorc 11, Track
Level 13 – Witch Hunter 1 Detect Evil/Will, Smite Evil 1/Day
Level 14 – Witch Hunter 2 Kami’s Grace (Cha to Saves)
Level 15 – Dragslayer 2 Arcane Strike
Level 16 – Dragslayer 3
Level 17 – Sacred Exorcist 1
Level 18 – Sacred Exorcist 2 Leadership
Level 19 – Sacred Exorcist 3
Level 20 – Sacred Exorcist 4

While not perfect this gives you BAB 16 & CL 17
colm_l
09-22-05, 03:53 AM I can't believe I overlooked the Eldritch Knight, and I don't think my DM will allow Sacred Exorcist.

It's worth a try - you are already a witch hunter so it's not a hufe stretch.

A better version of EK is http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4

Using that:

1 Normal Sorc 1
2 Normal Sorc 2
3 Normal Sorc 3
4 Normal Sorc 4
5 Normal Sorc 5
6 Normal Sorc 6
7 Knight Phantom 1
8 Knight Phantom 2
9 Knight Phantom 3
10 Knight Phantom 4
11 Knight Phantom 5
12 Knight Phantom 6
13 Witch Hunter 1
14 Witch Hunter 2
15 Knight Phantom 7
16 Knight Phantom 8
17 Knight Phantom 9
18 Knight Phantom 10
19 Full casting 1
20 Full casting 2

This will give you BAB 16 (or more depending on the last 2 levels) & CL 17, & the ability to cast in light armour from KP with more spells than battle sorc.

Things you may not have realized about Aasimar:

Outsider Type:
Features: An outsider has the following features.
<snipped for relevance>
—Darkvision out to 60 feet.
—Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
—Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types.

Native Subtype: A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep.

now - the sample Aasimar uses scalemail - so an Aasimar is proficient in Light & Medium Armour - (though since it's a warrior they probably shouldn't be).
Sang-Drax
09-22-05, 05:32 AM I don't think my DM will allow Sacred Exorcist.

May I ask you why?

My advice is never take battlesorcerer. It just not worth it.

You might as well check the gish thread under my sig... it's quite helpful.

Do you think the loss of 9th level spells is worth +2 BAB and the ability to Channel Spells?

I guess it depends more on your style. Spellsword 5 makes you a better warrior, which is really cool by itself. And I'll argue against Dragonslayer, it's not worth it even with battlesorcerer, IMO.

I'd go

Illumian

Fighter 1/Sorcerer 2/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 5/Sacred Exorcist 4/Eldritch Knight 4

With Improved Sigil (aesh), you'll deal a lot of damage without the need of resourcing to magic. Sacred Exorcist unlocks Turn Undead/Divine Might. You'll need Human Heritage at 1st level to take Human Paragon.

A better option would be to rise your Strength and leave just a mediocre to Charisma, and drop Sacred Exorcist altogether:

Ranger 2/Sorcerer 2/Human Paragon 3/Harper Paragon 8/Eldritch Knight 5

BAB +16, CL 16th, lots of skills, HD 5d8+8d10+5d6+2d4, 4 bonus feats.

Wield a Two-bladed sword. Aeshkrau will enable you to use strength as your relevant stat for bonus spells, meaning you'll need only a Cha of 12 and a +6 item to cast all the spells you want until 9th level. Of course, your DCs will suck, but focus on non-save and buff spells and you're set.

The good things about this build are Improved Sigil (aeshkrau) + Improved Favored Enemy (evil) + Nemesis. That means a +1d6+9 on each attack against evil creatures, or a plaing +6 against everyone else.

The build is quite felxible as well... you could go Ranger 1/EK6 or Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Spellsword 5 instead of EK, but either choice would mean one less power sigil, and, thus, 1 less point of damage at each attack.
Knightwolfe
09-22-05, 02:24 PM :eek:

I thought Dragonslayer was full caster...that's what I get for trying to do things without referencing. D'oh!

And again I appreciate all the help guys, but I forgot to mention that this character has to be Aasimar - or at least that half-celestial template, which I will take a look at.
RadicalTaoist
09-22-05, 02:34 PM Don't forget Ruathar. Only 3 levels long though, and like the SE a little tricky to qualify for.
Whil we're at it, the Cyran Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707a) (scroll down for the link) from Five Kingdoms is like a 5 level Knight Phantom.
tate
09-22-05, 02:47 PM Im currently playing a Gish that will eventually have a BAB of 18 and CL 19 (but only spells as if 15th so 8th level, Practiced Caster helps though). Im sure you have seen the build. ..

Its simple and common: Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SpellSword 5/EldrichKnight 9

It focues more on attacking than untility spells and such (obviously), but its a nice simple way to make an effective gish. Its also very stereotypical with the channeling and wearing armor, which I personally like.

***oops, I realize now that you were trying to get a highter Caster Prog instead of BAB. . . .feel free to ignore :)
Khazra Reborn
09-22-05, 03:13 PM Wow, never noticed that Prc before, pretty sweet, shame about the survival pre-requisite
My personal advice for a build would be:
human Bard6/paladin4/Sublime chord2/knight phantom8
Feats:
1. PA,TWF
3. battlecaster
6. devoted peformer
9. ITWF
12. divine might
15. GTWF
18. words of creation

9th level spells, 17 BAB, cast in medium armour (ie mithral fullplate), TWF with 2 shortswords.
You have cha to saves & damage. On a full attack, sing inspire courage & TWF with divine might. So you have 7 attacks all adding cha & a +8 moral bonus to damage.
colm_l
09-23-05, 04:37 AM Cyran Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707a) (scroll down for the link) from Five Kingdoms is like a 5 level Knight Phantom.

That's an excellent class - someone really needs to update the Gish handbook at this stage
Blade2718
09-23-05, 09:39 AM In City of Splendors, there is a 5-level PrC that has 3/4 BAB and 4/5 spellcasting that might be helpful. I think it was Grey Hand Enforcer. Someone help me out with the name, here.
colm_l
09-23-05, 10:06 AM In City of Splendors, there is a 5-level PrC that has 3/4 BAB and 4/5 spellcasting that might be helpful. I think it was Grey Hand Enforcer. Someone help me out with the name, here.

Full BAB & 4/5 spellcasting -you got the name right
PonTelon
09-23-05, 12:46 PM Aeshkrau will enable you to use strength as your relevant stat for bonus spells, meaning you'll need only a Cha of 12 and a +6 item to cast all the spells you want until 9th level. Of course, your DCs will suck, but focus on non-save and buff spells and you're set.

So he can only cast 2nd level spells? You need to re-read Aeshkrau. It only gives your bonus spells based on Str, not "relevant stat."

Anyway, I haven't really played a gish before(beyond Battle Sorc/Sandshaper), so I cannot help you much. I'm wondering why everyone is keeping away from Eldtrich Knight though.
colm_l
09-24-05, 03:28 AM Anyway, I haven't really played a gish before(beyond Battle Sorc/Sandshaper), so I cannot help you much. I'm wondering why everyone is keeping away from Eldtrich Knight though.

EK is a weak class & flavourless to boot.

There's a huge amount of similar but better classes with quite easy entry now.
Knightwolfe
09-24-05, 01:51 PM Wow...Cyran Avenger is...awesome. Consider my build finalized.

Thanks again everyone!
PhaedrusXY
09-24-05, 02:17 PM So he can only cast 2nd level spells? You need to re-read Aeshkrau. It only gives your bonus spells based on Str, not "relevant stat."Cha 12 +6 item = Cha 18 =casting 8th level spells.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Knightwolfe 09-22-05, 02:04 AM	Are there any - preferably ones that do not have hefty feat requirements? I'm making a gish build that at the moment has +18 BAB and a CL 17th, but would like to shift it so that it is +16 BAB and CL 19. For this, I need a class of at least 5-level progression that has 3/4 BAB and full caster progression. Note that I've already used Dragonslayer in the build, so that won't fit the bill. Any help please? Build is below - I'm looking to replace Spellsword with whatever works.
Knightwolfe 09-22-05, 02:05 AM	Actually, since this will help, here is the build so far. The DM gives everyone a feat at first level, and we use LA buyoff per UA. Aasimar: +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom, Darkvision 60 ft, Outsider Type, +2 Listen/Spot, Daylight 1/Day, Resistance 5/Acid, Cold, Electricity. Level Adjustment +1 Level 1 – Battle Sorc 1 Dodge, Iron Will Level 2 – Battle Sorc 2 Level 3 – Battle Sorc 3 Celestial Bloodline Level 4 – Battle Sorc 4 Level 5 – Battle Sorc 5 Level 6 – Battle Sorc 6 Outsider Wings Level 7 – DragSlayer 1 Aura of Courage, +1 Damage vs. Dragons Level 8 – Spellsword 1 Ignore ASF 10% Level 9 – Spellsword 2 Hover, Battle Caster Level 10 – Spellsword 3 Ignore ASF 15% Level 11 – Spellsword 4 Channel Spell 3/Day Level 12 – Spellsword 5 Ignore ASF 20%, Track Level 13 – Witch Hunter 1 Detect Evil/Will, Smite Evil 1/Day Level 14 – Witch Hunter 2 Kami’s Grace (Cha to Saves) Level 15 – Dragslayer 2 Arcane Strike Level 16 – Dragslayer 3 Level 17 – Dragslayer 4 Level 18 – Dragslayer 5 Leadership Level 19 – Dragslayer 6 Level 20 – Dragslayer 7
X-Codes 09-22-05, 02:13 AM	Theres Sacred Exorcist from CD; although you can't qualify for it until level 10.
Zathyr 09-22-05, 02:14 AM	Are there any - preferably ones that do not have hefty feat requirements? I'm making a gish build that at the moment has +18 BAB and a CL 17th, but would like to shift it so that it is +16 BAB and CL 19. For this, I need a class of at least 5-level progression that has 3/4 BAB and full caster progression. Note that I've already used Dragonslayer in the build, so that won't fit the bill. Any help please? Build is below - I'm looking to replace Spellsword with whatever works. I'm assuming you mean for an arcane caster. There are some cleric-ish PrC's that are actually open to arcane casters as well, like Sacred Exorcist and ... well I can't think of any others off-hand, but I think there were.. Maybe not. Any reason you don't want to go with Eldrich Knight? Or are you already taking 10 levels of it?
catharz 09-22-05, 02:17 AM	Ya, Sacred Exorcist looks like your best bet.
dawgfan 09-22-05, 02:57 AM	Also see if your DM will let you use the Half Celestial template from BoED as its only a +2, if he does then drop aasimar and go half celestial as that will save you a lot of feats to get your wings and being better using them.
Knightwolfe 09-22-05, 03:14 AM	Thanks for all the advice guys! I can't believe I overlooked the Eldritch Knight, and I don't think my DM will allow Sacred Exorcist. That said, what are your opinions on the whole BAB/CL thing in the first place? Do you think the loss of 9th level spells is worth +2 BAB and the ability to Channel Spells?
colm_l 09-22-05, 03:49 AM	Are there any - preferably ones that do not have hefty feat requirements? I'm making a gish build that at the moment has +18 BAB and a CL 17th, but would like to shift it so that it is +16 BAB and CL 19. You appear to actually have BAB 18 & CL 13 (dragonslayer is 1/2 CL prog). Since you're losing spells for a 3/4 BAB advance & full spellcasting variant class you should probably stick with it. Level 1 – Battle Sorc 1 Dodge, Iron Will Level 2 – Battle Sorc 2 Level 3 – Battle Sorc 3 Celestial Bloodline Level 4 – Battle Sorc 4 Level 5 – Battle Sorc 5 Level 6 – Battle Sorc 6 Outsider Wings Level 7 – DragSlayer 1 Aura of Courage, +1 Damage vs. Dragons Level 8 – Battle Sorc 7 Level 9 – Battle Sorc 8 Hover, Battle Caster Level 10 – Battle Sorc 9 Level 11 – Battle Sorc 10 Level 12 – Battle Sorc 11 Track Level 13 – Witch Hunter 1 Detect Evil/Will, Smite Evil 1/Day Level 14 – Witch Hunter 2 Kami’s Grace (Cha to Saves) Level 15 – Dragslayer 2 Arcane Strike Level 16 – Dragslayer 3 Level 17 – Dragslayer 4 Level 18 – Dragslayer 5 Leadership Level 19 – Dragslayer 6 Level 20 – Dragslayer 7 for BAB 17 & CL 15 A better one is Level 1 – Battle Sorc 1 Dodge, Iron Will Level 2 – Battle Sorc 2 Level 3 – Battle Sorc 3 Celestial Bloodline Level 4 – Battle Sorc 4 Level 5 – Battle Sorc 5 Level 6 – Battle Sorc 6 Outsider Wings Level 7 – Battle Sorc 7 Level 8 – Battle Sorc 8 Level 9 – DragSlayer 1 Aura of Courage, +1 Damage vs. Dragons, Hover, Battle Caster Level 10 – Battle Sorc 9 Level 11 – Battle Sorc 10 Level 12 – Battle Sorc 11, Track Level 13 – Witch Hunter 1 Detect Evil/Will, Smite Evil 1/Day Level 14 – Witch Hunter 2 Kami’s Grace (Cha to Saves) Level 15 – Dragslayer 2 Arcane Strike Level 16 – Dragslayer 3 Level 17 – Sacred Exorcist 1 Level 18 – Sacred Exorcist 2 Leadership Level 19 – Sacred Exorcist 3 Level 20 – Sacred Exorcist 4 While not perfect this gives you BAB 16 & CL 17
colm_l 09-22-05, 03:53 AM	I can't believe I overlooked the Eldritch Knight, and I don't think my DM will allow Sacred Exorcist. It's worth a try - you are already a witch hunter so it's not a hufe stretch. A better version of EK is http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4 Using that: 1 Normal Sorc 1 2 Normal Sorc 2 3 Normal Sorc 3 4 Normal Sorc 4 5 Normal Sorc 5 6 Normal Sorc 6 7 Knight Phantom 1 8 Knight Phantom 2 9 Knight Phantom 3 10 Knight Phantom 4 11 Knight Phantom 5 12 Knight Phantom 6 13 Witch Hunter 1 14 Witch Hunter 2 15 Knight Phantom 7 16 Knight Phantom 8 17 Knight Phantom 9 18 Knight Phantom 10 19 Full casting 1 20 Full casting 2 This will give you BAB 16 (or more depending on the last 2 levels) & CL 17, & the ability to cast in light armour from KP with more spells than battle sorc. Things you may not have realized about Aasimar: Outsider Type: Features: An outsider has the following features. <snipped for relevance> —Darkvision out to 60 feet. —Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry. —Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Native Subtype: A subtype applied only to outsiders. These creatures have mortal ancestors or a strong connection to the Material Plane and can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be. Creatures with this subtype are native to the Material Plane (hence the subtype’s name). Unlike true outsiders, native outsiders need to eat and sleep. now - the sample Aasimar uses scalemail - so an Aasimar is proficient in Light & Medium Armour - (though since it's a warrior they probably shouldn't be).
Sang-Drax 09-22-05, 05:32 AM	I don't think my DM will allow Sacred Exorcist. May I ask you why? My advice is never take battlesorcerer. It just not worth it. You might as well check the gish thread under my sig... it's quite helpful. Do you think the loss of 9th level spells is worth +2 BAB and the ability to Channel Spells? I guess it depends more on your style. Spellsword 5 makes you a better warrior, which is really cool by itself. And I'll argue against Dragonslayer, it's not worth it even with battlesorcerer, IMO. I'd go Illumian Fighter 1/Sorcerer 2/Human Paragon 3/Spellsword 5/Sacred Exorcist 4/Eldritch Knight 4 With Improved Sigil (aesh), you'll deal a lot of damage without the need of resourcing to magic. Sacred Exorcist unlocks Turn Undead/Divine Might. You'll need Human Heritage at 1st level to take Human Paragon. A better option would be to rise your Strength and leave just a mediocre to Charisma, and drop Sacred Exorcist altogether: Ranger 2/Sorcerer 2/Human Paragon 3/Harper Paragon 8/Eldritch Knight 5 BAB +16, CL 16th, lots of skills, HD 5d8+8d10+5d6+2d4, 4 bonus feats. Wield a Two-bladed sword. Aeshkrau will enable you to use strength as your relevant stat for bonus spells, meaning you'll need only a Cha of 12 and a +6 item to cast all the spells you want until 9th level. Of course, your DCs will suck, but focus on non-save and buff spells and you're set. The good things about this build are Improved Sigil (aeshkrau) + Improved Favored Enemy (evil) + Nemesis. That means a +1d6+9 on each attack against evil creatures, or a plaing +6 against everyone else. The build is quite felxible as well... you could go Ranger 1/EK6 or Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Spellsword 5 instead of EK, but either choice would mean one less power sigil, and, thus, 1 less point of damage at each attack.
Knightwolfe 09-22-05, 02:24 PM	:eek: I thought Dragonslayer was full caster...that's what I get for trying to do things without referencing. D'oh! And again I appreciate all the help guys, but I forgot to mention that this character has to be Aasimar - or at least that half-celestial template, which I will take a look at.
RadicalTaoist 09-22-05, 02:34 PM	Don't forget Ruathar. Only 3 levels long though, and like the SE a little tricky to qualify for. Whil we're at it, the Cyran Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707a) (scroll down for the link) from Five Kingdoms is like a 5 level Knight Phantom.
tate 09-22-05, 02:47 PM	Im currently playing a Gish that will eventually have a BAB of 18 and CL 19 (but only spells as if 15th so 8th level, Practiced Caster helps though). Im sure you have seen the build. .. Its simple and common: Ftr 2/Wiz 4/SpellSword 5/EldrichKnight 9 It focues more on attacking than untility spells and such (obviously), but its a nice simple way to make an effective gish. Its also very stereotypical with the channeling and wearing armor, which I personally like. ***oops, I realize now that you were trying to get a highter Caster Prog instead of BAB. . . .feel free to ignore :)
Khazra Reborn 09-22-05, 03:13 PM	Wow, never noticed that Prc before, pretty sweet, shame about the survival pre-requisite My personal advice for a build would be: human Bard6/paladin4/Sublime chord2/knight phantom8 Feats: 1. PA,TWF 3. battlecaster 6. devoted peformer 9. ITWF 12. divine might 15. GTWF 18. words of creation 9th level spells, 17 BAB, cast in medium armour (ie mithral fullplate), TWF with 2 shortswords. You have cha to saves & damage. On a full attack, sing inspire courage & TWF with divine might. So you have 7 attacks all adding cha & a +8 moral bonus to damage.
colm_l 09-23-05, 04:37 AM	Cyran Avenger (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20050707a) (scroll down for the link) from Five Kingdoms is like a 5 level Knight Phantom. That's an excellent class - someone really needs to update the Gish handbook at this stage
Blade2718 09-23-05, 09:39 AM	In City of Splendors, there is a 5-level PrC that has 3/4 BAB and 4/5 spellcasting that might be helpful. I think it was Grey Hand Enforcer. Someone help me out with the name, here.
colm_l 09-23-05, 10:06 AM	In City of Splendors, there is a 5-level PrC that has 3/4 BAB and 4/5 spellcasting that might be helpful. I think it was Grey Hand Enforcer. Someone help me out with the name, here. Full BAB & 4/5 spellcasting -you got the name right
PonTelon 09-23-05, 12:46 PM	Aeshkrau will enable you to use strength as your relevant stat for bonus spells, meaning you'll need only a Cha of 12 and a +6 item to cast all the spells you want until 9th level. Of course, your DCs will suck, but focus on non-save and buff spells and you're set. So he can only cast 2nd level spells? You need to re-read Aeshkrau. It only gives your bonus spells based on Str, not "relevant stat." Anyway, I haven't really played a gish before(beyond Battle Sorc/Sandshaper), so I cannot help you much. I'm wondering why everyone is keeping away from Eldtrich Knight though.
colm_l 09-24-05, 03:28 AM	Anyway, I haven't really played a gish before(beyond Battle Sorc/Sandshaper), so I cannot help you much. I'm wondering why everyone is keeping away from Eldtrich Knight though. EK is a weak class & flavourless to boot. There's a huge amount of similar but better classes with quite easy entry now.
Knightwolfe 09-24-05, 01:51 PM	Wow...Cyran Avenger is...awesome. Consider my build finalized. Thanks again everyone!
PhaedrusXY 09-24-05, 02:17 PM	So he can only cast 2nd level spells? You need to re-read Aeshkrau. It only gives your bonus spells based on Str, not "relevant stat."Cha 12 +6 item = Cha 18 =casting 8th level spells.