Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Elemental_Elf 01-03-06, 11:08 PM	This is kinda long so if you don't have time, please scroll to the bottom and read the recap! :D I'm starting a new campaine in a few days. Due to some unfortunate circumstances, our group is down to 2 Players and a DM. So to comensate we decided to create Gestalt characters. I've been thinking about what I want my character to be and I finallyh realized it as I was watching peacemaker Kurogane - I want to be a Ronin/Cowboy style character. Meaning, more specifically, I want to be this guy - Sakamoto Ryoma (http://www.suishoo.net/shinsengumi/peacemaker/bw/kuro01_ryoma.png) - Essentially he weilds the traditional Samurai pair of swords as well as a revolver. Now obviously I can't have a Revolver (unless my DM allows it *Crosses Fingers*) so I'll have to use a few Pistols in its stead. Now to create this character, who will be Chatic/Good, I was thinking of something along the lines of Ranger/Fighter or Ranger/Warlock or Fighter/Spell Thief or something along those lines. Essentially our group needs versatility in the combination of the 2 classes as well as a need for the 'stealthy' skills (Hide and Move Silently). Now I need some help choosing the class combination as well as what feats I will need. Sakamoto Ryoma uses both of his swords and his revolver interchangebly in combat relying on the unique combination of the 3 weapons to succeed in battle. So I know I will need: Point Blank Shot Percise Shot 2 Weapon Fighting 2 Weapon Defence Quick Draw Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Pistol Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Bastard Sword Feel Free to suggest additions/subtractions as you see fit. I will be starting off at level 6 Human, so I will have 4 feats to start off with. With the Ranger I will have 5 of the needed feats when I begin, so I will have to dump 1 of the feats (most likely Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Bastard Sword because a Long Sword does virtually the same thing :weep: and 2 Weapon Defence because all the others are necessary). If I go Fighter I will have more then enough feats (8 total) but I will loose the spellcasting powers and the stealthy skills the Ranger has. So I'm in a quandery. I could go Fighter/Ranger, but then I feel as if I'm betraying the ideals of the Gestalt Character creation. And with 2 weapon Fighting, I won't have the free hand necessary to cast spells. So I'd either have to go into battle with only 1 weapon equiped, cast a spell then Quick Draw a weapon but what if i wanted to cast another spell? I could simply drop my pistol (which I'd do anyways seeing as how i'd have like 6 of them on me) but I'm uneasy as to dropping my short sword but i guess that isn't much of a big deal as I'd prolly have an extra pistol ready to replace it. Still I from this line of thought I realized the Warlock can use his incantations w/o a free hand so I could use that class BUT i would, if i combo it with Fighter, loose both the 6 skill points as well as the stealthy skills I need. I have come u pwith these as possible class combinations that seem to work: Fighter/Ranger Ranger/Warlock Fighter/Spell Thief Ranger/Scout Thanx for the help! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ RECAP! Using Gestalt Characters 45 Point Buy in Forgotten Realms I want to be like this guy (http://www.suishoo.net/shinsengumi/peacemaker/bw/kuro01_ryoma.png) Chaotic Good alignment Duel Weilding a Bastard Sword, Short Sword and a Pistol (in any combination) Need Stealth skills (Hide + Move Silently) Need 7 feats: Point Blank Shot Percise Shot 2 Weapon Fighting 2 Weapon Defence Quick Draw Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Pistol Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Bastard Sword Please suggest any I didn't put or take away ones i won't need Possible combanations --> Fighter/Ranger; Ranger/Warlock; Fighter/Spell Thief; Ranger Scout; or something you suggest Thanx for the help!
X-Codes 01-03-06, 11:22 PM	Samurai 2/Ranger 18 | Warlock 20 PrC as wanted...
Elemental_Elf 01-03-06, 11:44 PM	^^ Doesn't work :weep: We're using Gesalt Characters, meaning 2 classes level up at once and I gain the best of both classes (i.e. the Best BAB, Saves and Skill Points as well as all the non overlaping class abilities). Also Samurai have to Lawful and my guy is going to be Chaotic.
X-Codes 01-03-06, 11:52 PM	^^ Doesn't work :weep: We're using Gesalt Characters, meaning 2 classes level up at once and I gain the best of both classes (i.e. the Best BAB, Saves and Skill Points as well as all the non overlaping class abilities). Also Samurai have to Lawful and my guy is going to be Chaotic. Yeah, you take Samurai 2/Ranger 18 on one side and Warlock 20 on the other. Go archery with the Ranger, although you'll likely PrC out before your 6th ranger level.
Elemental_Elf 01-04-06, 12:14 AM	That seems great!... Except for a few problems :weep: The Ranger's Archery Combat feats focus on manyshots and seeing as I'm using a Pistol... it's kinda useless :weep: . Also Samurai must be Lawful of loose all their cool stuff. And I have no knowledge about the Oriental Adventures version. :weep:
Lokiyn 01-04-06, 12:21 AM	Two swords and a pistol will fall before the mighty abacus.... Ok nothing productive to see here, move along....
X-Codes 01-04-06, 12:26 AM	That seems great!... Except for a few problems :weep: The Ranger's Archery Combat feats focus on manyshots and seeing as I'm using a Pistol... it's kinda useless :weep: . Also Samurai must be Lawful of loose all their cool stuff. And I have no knowledge about the Oriental Adventures version. :weep: Not anything he gains in the first two levels. They just loose Staredown and Kaiai Smite which, honestly, both rather suck anyway. You would still have to be Lawful Evil until level 3 though...
Elemental_Elf 01-04-06, 12:52 AM	Two swords and a pistol will fall before the mighty abacus.... Ok nothing productive to see here, move along.... WTF? How is that so bad? No worse then 2 swords and a Bow! ~~ Not anything he gains in the first two levels. They just loose Staredown and Kaiai Smite which, honestly, both rather suck anyway. You would still have to be Lawful Evil until level 3 though... *feels pretty dumb That can work ^_^ I'll Kepp that in mind, thanx! ^_^
catharz 01-04-06, 12:55 AM	WTF? How is that so bad? No worse then 2 swords and a Bow! Actually, it's a lot worse. Sorry, just the truth. That doesn't mean the pistol idea isn't doable. It would work better as an eldritch blast shot from a 'gun.' <---Rod of whatever.
Slyver 01-04-06, 01:02 AM	Do you have some kind of restriction on classes? You realize that according to gestalt rules you can multiclass both sides if desired right? The only restriction in the standard rules (which can be change by DM intervention) is that you can't prestige on both sides of the gestalt at the same time. Is spellcasting on one side important or would you prefer to be a bad ass fighter shooter stealth skill guy? You are already branching off by wanting two distinctly different fighting styles in one character, although he is gestalt so it is certainly doable, but adding spellcasting, at least full progression will detract from the flavor and effectiveness of the fighting styles (although still generally considered to be more powerful in the end). As for your feats, two weapon defense is really a total waste of a feat. In some builds (a build where you fight defensively most of the time, like duelist) it is ok, but only if you have plenty of feats to spare, even then I bet I can come up with ten better feats. The rest look pretty good, at least for the flavor you are looking for. Is it necessary to weild katana/wakizashi or is dual katana doable? I have a build in mind but I need to know more of what you are looking for to flesh it out. Slyver
Elemental_Elf 01-04-06, 01:43 AM	... Wow! i thought you had to chose 2 classes and were forced to stick with those 2 classes... Cool, now the rules seem to make sence! :D As for the spells, I see what you are saying and perhaps i was too cought up in making a great all around character rather then sticking to the flavor of the character. So yeah spells aren't necessary! :D So bad ass fighter shooter stealth skill guy, is what I want! :D Hmm.. As for the Dual Katana... Hmm.. Yeah that'd be cool as well. It just gives him even more of an exotic feel. :D
Lokiyn 01-04-06, 03:06 AM	WTF? How is that so bad? No worse then 2 swords and a Bow! 1.) the first sentance was a direct reference to the show, with the accountant for the assasin group and his fighting style involving the Abacus 2.) The second sentance refered to the relevence of my post to the topic at hand, which was nothing. Plus a Gun takes to long to reload, its best to quickdraw and drop as free actions, meaning a knife vest modified to hold pistols would work better in dnd than a single gun.
Elemental_Elf 01-04-06, 03:30 AM	1.) the first sentance was a direct reference to the show, with the accountant for the assasin group and his fighting style involving the Abacus 2.) The second sentance refered to the relevence of my post to the topic at hand, which was nothing. Plus a Gun takes to long to reload, its best to quickdraw and drop as free actions, meaning a knife vest modified to hold pistols would work better in dnd than a single gun. hehe, Sorry, I guess I took it the wrong way. :weep: "It may look powerful but it's quite the delicate lady." - Ryoma refering to his gun That quote not only holds true for the real world but for the dnd world as well. The pistol is a powerful weapon yet very delicate. Of course there are better weapons, especially in this era. Yet the pistol is the most elegant and beautiful of them all. It truely is a gentalman's weapon of choice. Not only is it effective in close quarters but it's a symbol of the future. Of technolgical achievement. It represents man's ability to force nature into the form he desires. The Pistol is a mere foreshadowing, a preview if you will, of the destructive power man can create. Anyways, sorry for the backlash, i misinterpreted your meaning.
Zemyla 01-04-06, 12:07 PM	Is this the guy who wields a sword in each hand and a pistol in the other?
Elemental_Elf 01-04-06, 12:47 PM	Is this the guy who wields a sword in each hand and a pistol in the other? Huh? He's the Guy who has the 2 typical swords of a samurai and a Pistol. He uses the Pistol for shock value as well as a way of avoiding close quarters combat. Yet he is trained in the art of a swordsman and quite deadly with his 2 swords.
SoulGamit 01-04-06, 06:02 PM	What pistol rules are you using? Iron Kingdoms? Beg and plead with your DM to get a crapload of unseen servents, this way you can full attack as normal (have the servents ready actions to reload your gun after it fires). Oh, and might I suggest building the gun into your sword? I know the rules for this are in the iron kingdoms and the ravenloft campaign setting, although it takes a second EWP it's worth it, especially when combined with the above trick, since it'll basically double the number of attacks you get. Oh, and if your going with the Iron Kingdom rules, then you should consider the gun mage class and the pistoleer PrC and use double-barrled military pistols. Assuming you build them into your gun, each attack will do sword damage + 4d6+2+Dex (assuming you take the sharpshooter feat) + 8d6 against creatures who aren't immune to sneak attack.
Elemental_Elf 01-04-06, 11:36 PM	Sorry, my group is in Forgotten Realms and only the Complete and Core books are legal. :(
Slyver 01-05-06, 01:11 AM	Monk is UA cobra strike variant Stats: str 16 dex 16 con 14 int 17 (all level improvements go here) wis 12 cha 10 1 ranger/monk Track, dodge, carmandine monk, exotic weapon proficiency pistol 2 ranger/monk two weapon fighting, mobility 3 Fighter/monk weapon focus unarmed strike, quickdraw 4 fighter/monk exotic weapon proficiency bastard sword 5 Swashbuckler/monk weapon finesse 6 shou diciple/Rogue point blank shot 7 shou diciple/Swashbuckler combat expertise 8 shou diciple/swashbuckler insightul strike 9 OA Samurai/shou diciple weapon focus katana, precise shot, ancestral daisho 10 OA Samurai/shou diciple improved initiative 11 Iajistu master/monk spring attack (or improved disarm) 12 Dervish/fighter oversized two weapon fighting 13 fighter/dervish 14 fighter/dervish improved two weapon fighting (spring attack again) 15 dervish/monk greater two weapon fighting 16 fighter/dervish elusive target 17 dervish/rogue 18 fighter/dervish power attack 19 dervish/rogue 20 fighter/dervish craven Well, it aint core+complete, but excluding the OA stuff, it ain't far off. I made this before I saw that restriction. How strict is it? There is nothing campaign specific in this build except FR. It would take a substantial hit to the power of this build to move it to just those books, but it is possible. The main problems are more problems with the rules however, for instance; insightful strike requires a finessable weapon. For some godforsaken reason, a katana is not a finessable weapon, unless you take one level of iajistu master. (Anyone who has ever used one knows it is most certainly a finessable weapon.) With a little DM intervention to make it finessable it would make this build much easier (although the second int to ac bonus from iajistu master is VERY nice, but not necessary). Another important not core+complete issue is carmandine monk (or kung fu genius) from champions of valor/dragon 326? respectively. It is a necessary feat for this build and destroys the synergy without it. If your DM will not allow any of these, or rather, all of these things in some form let me know and I can create a completely different build. If so, let me know what restrictions can not be bypassed and I will modify this build. I don't know much about optimizing pistols, however; with the sneak attack damage from craven (a feat that doesnt really belong in this build but is so dang powerful for it) and the various feats for it, it is decent, though mostly it just detracts from the overall power of the build. I understand your desire for the flavor, but I really don't think dnd is setup to make a powerful pistol build. Maybe d20 modern has some stuff, I have never played it though, so I don't know. Regardless, with core+complete or even a broader range of books available pistol shooting is going to be at best, not complete crap and more likely, a power sucking distraction, making much more powerful abilities come several levels later. Slyver Edit: One additional problem with core+complete is the lack of a feat to make a katana a weapon you can flurry with (again, god alone knows why) thus the need for shou diciple from players guide to faerun. Again, a simple thing to fix with DM intervention as the precedence is set with feats like whirling steel strike et al.
SoulGamit 01-05-06, 01:37 AM	Sorry, my group is in Forgotten Realms and only the Complete and Core books are legal. There are rules for guns in the forgotten realms? Anyways, my unseen servent trick should still work.
Elemental_Elf 01-05-06, 02:17 AM	Slyver: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: Wow that is an awesome build! :eek: :) :eek: :) :eek: My group and I only have the Core + Completes. But so long as it's officially printed by WotC, my DM shouldn't have a problem with it. Also my DM is pretty cool about changing certain things to make more sense. And he does love Asian history, so he'll prolly change the katana to a Finessable weapon. :D Wow, thank you very much Slyver! :bow:
SoulGamit 01-05-06, 03:02 AM	Samurai 2 / Monk 6 / Rogue 1 / Scout 11 Scout 3 / Fighter 2 / Shou Disciple 5 / Dervish 10 Feats should be set up as follows: 1. Exotic Weapon Proficency (Bastard Sword), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Pistol), Dodge 2. Two Weapon Fighting 3. Mobility, Improved Grapple 4. Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Combat Reflexes 5. Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) 6. Elusive Target 7.Combat Expertise 8. Improved Trip 9. Craven, Improved Initiative 10. Quick Reconnoiter 12. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting 14. Danger Sense 15. Greater Two-Weapon Fighting 18. Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot I got lazy with the last two feats, replace em if you see fit., so you can replace em if you see fit. Skirmish will give you an extra +3AC and +4d6 damage shen you move enough (which would be all the time). You even get Hide in Plain Sight at level 20.
Slyver 01-05-06, 03:50 AM	My group and I only have the Core + Completes. But so long as it's officially printed by WotC, my DM shouldn't have a problem with it. Also my DM is pretty cool about changing certain things to make more sense. And he does love Asian history, so he'll prolly change the katana to a Finessable weapon. :D Wow, thank you very much Slyver! Noproblemwhatsoever. Let me know if anything doesn't jive with your DM and I can easily modify it. Especially if he allows for minor rules changes as you noted and/or will allow for things outside of core+complete, most notably carmindine monk. SoulGamit, I'm not sure your build qualifies for shou diciple at 5 since you only have 4 bab (or 4.75). It also suffers from some rather extreme experience penalties. Nice ideas though, I like the scout class. I would also replace the CW samurai with Ranger because you are limiting yourself to just katana+wakizashi that way (I am NOT a big fan of the CW samurai). Being able to power attack with both weapons can add up to some very nice additional damage, although it is a free feat. Slyver
SoulGamit 01-05-06, 12:30 PM	Isn't a wakazashi a light weapon and therefore can't be power attacked with? Sorry about the exp penaulties, I forgot how they work in gesalt... guess they are the same as when your not gesalting, but count both sides together? The build has +5 BAB by the way, unless your using fractional BAB. I guess that build won't work unless you have a very lenient DM (who will allow a 4th level monk and 5th level shou disciple flurry as an 11th level monk, which was what happened in 3.0).
MaplessManiac620 01-05-06, 07:02 PM	Try the Dart Thruster out of 'Underdark'. Works mechanically almost exactly like a hand-crossbow, but 1.) looks cooler, and 2.) can hold up to three darts before being reloaded. Either that or buy a Wand of Magic Missle 5th and use some imagination on how to describe it.