Post/Author/DateTime	Post
supercrazyGingerbreadman 08-02-06, 03:07 PM	I want to play a blind character. However what class could be considered the least seight dependent and which class would you sugest for a blind character. I am curently leaning towards psionics.
obtusehobbit 08-02-06, 03:37 PM	If you can get the new tome of battle, there is a stance you can get at 9th Level that gives you blind sense 30 ft. Also, I believe there was a thread not long ago that asked this same question.
ksbsnowowl 08-02-06, 04:37 PM	Two feats in Complete Adventurer you want to look at. The first is Quick Reconniture - it allows you to make a spot and listen check as a free action each round. I don't recall the name of the second feat, but it allows you to make a listen check (DC 15?) to pinpoint the square of each opponent within 30 ft. Also, the Scout class (same book) gains 30 ft. Blindsense at 10th level, and 30 ft. Blindsight at 20th level. There is a feat in 3.0's Sword and Fist named Blindsight, 5 foot radius, which does exactly what it sounds like. Has a High Wisdom prereq.
Pellanor 08-02-06, 04:44 PM	I actually had a thread on this a few months back. One thing I suggest, is talking your DM into giving you the following benefits for being blind. 1. Blindsight, as a bonus feat. 2. Hear the Unseen, as a bonus feat. 3. Listen is always a Class Skill. While that doesn't completely make up for being blind (Doesn't even come close) it does give you some useful benefits. As for being useful without sight, let's see... - Synesthete is a 1st level psychic power that lets you feel light, only lasts 10/min per level though. - Blindfold of True Darkness from the Arms and Equipment Guide gives you Blindsight (60'). - Mindsight (Lords of Madness) allows you to pinpoint the location of any intelligent creature within the range of your Telepathy. Mindbender gives you Telepathy 100' at first level, and is easy to qualify for, provided you're an arcane spellcaster. - The Grimlock is an ECL 4 monster with Blindsight 40'. - The Scout Class gives Blindsense, and later, Blind Sight. Some general notes about a blind character. First off, with blindfight, you only have a 25% miss chance in melee compared to the 50% chance you have at ranged. That makes melee imediatly better than ranged combat. Secondly, if you can only get blindsense, then try to get a character who doesn't need to make attack rolls. This is where an AoE spellcaster can be useful, since all oyu need to know is which square your oppont is in. Third, you may want to get some kind of bells or something for your allies to wear in combat, to help you be able to tell them apart from your allies. Fourth, you suffer no penalties against Invisible Opponents. Or at least no additional opponents, since you treat everybody as being invisible. This will actually make you much more effective against invisible opponents than normal. You'll find an invisible Stalker to be less of a threat than a normal party would. Hope that helps :)
rilem 08-02-06, 04:58 PM	One thing I suggest, is talking your DM into giving you the following benefits for being blind. 1. Blindsight, as a bonus feat. 2. Hear the Unseen, as a bonus feat. 3. Listen is always a Class Skill. While that doesn't completely make up for being blind (Doesn't even come close) ... I disagree. Given the number of ways around the blindness issue in a fantasy game (and the number of immunities that blindness gives you) this PC would be considerly more powerful than a traditional sighted character in many campaigns. Blind creatures, as you noted, don't have to worry about Invisible foes. Or Gaze attacks. Or darkness, smoke or fog. Or Sunburst, Color Spray, etc. They aren't affected by many common illusions — Mirror Image, Displacement, Illusory Wall, etc. While not explicitly stated, they'd arguably be resistant to effects such as an Obyrith's Form of Madness or a Dragon's Frightful Presence unless there was an auditory component. They have limits — environmental hazards are a pain, and ranged combatants will have their way with you if you don't take countermeasures. But countermeasures are easy to find. And if you've got partymates to help, it's even easier. A few more workarounds, by the way: A psicrystal (your seeing-eye rock) and sense link. There's also an Eberron psionic item that gives you a "third eye" — or a first. (I'm currently using some of these tricks with a Grimlock PC in the C/O Spider Queen game).
Archimedes314 08-02-06, 05:51 PM	Some general notes about a blind character. First off, with blindfight, you only have a 25% miss chance in melee compared to the 50% chance you have at ranged. That makes melee imediatly better than ranged combat. It's 33.3~% actually but it's moot because you should pick up Blindsight, 5-ft. Radius anyway.
Pellanor 08-02-06, 06:29 PM	I disagree. Given the number of ways around the blindness issue in a fantasy game (and the number of immunities that blindness gives you) this PC would be considerly more powerful than a traditional sighted character in many campaigns. Blind creatures, as you noted, don't have to worry about Invisible foes. Or Gaze attacks. Or darkness, smoke or fog. Or Sunburst, Color Spray, etc. They aren't affected by many common illusions — Mirror Image, Displacement, Illusory Wall, etc. While not explicitly stated, they'd arguably be resistant to effects such as an Obyrith's Form of Madness or a Dragon's Frightful Presence unless there was an auditory component. They have limits — environmental hazards are a pain, and ranged combatants will have their way with you if you don't take countermeasures. But countermeasures are easy to find. And if you've got partymates to help, it's even easier. A few more workarounds, by the way: A psicrystal (your seeing-eye rock) and sense link. There's also an Eberron psionic item that gives you a "third eye" — or a first. (I'm currently using some of these tricks with a Grimlock PC in the C/O Spider Queen game).That's like complaining that creatures without a con score are more powerful than one with a con score because they can't loose HP due to con damage. Let's adress some of these on a point by point basis. 1. Not having to worry about invisibile foe. This is not a strength of blindness, it's a strength of trying to overcome your blindness. Just because you are forced to specialize in fighting invisible opponents doesn't mean anything. A sighted character could be just as effective vs invisible opponents, if that's what he concentrated on. If you didn't spend the resources to effectivly combat invisible opponents, then you'll be just as screwed as any other character. 2. Gaze Attacks. This is one good bonus. Huzzah! 3. Sunburst Nowhere does it say that you aren't affected by the damage from Light Based attacks if you're blinded. Being immune to the secondary effect of being blinded, because you're already blind, really isn't a benifit. 4. Colour Spray. Congratulations, you're immune to a 1st level spell. 5. Mirror Image. Yay! Another low level spell that you're immune to. 6. Blur, Displacement. While we are immune to the 20%/50% miss chance due to concealment associated with these spells, we already have a 50% miss chance due to concealment, so it's kinda redundant. 7. Silent Image, Illusionary Wall. Wooh Two illusion spells that don't effect you, one of which is 1st level. 8. Frightful Presence. As you stated, this doesn't specicify that you have to be able to see the dragon. This likely includes the sound of the dragon's roar, the blast of wind you feel as it flys by, and an odor that it releases. Otherwise all you'd have to do to be immune to RP is close your eyes. So overall here, the only benefits you get for being blind are, being immune to gaze attacks (usefull), and handfull of low level spells that only affect sighted creatures. In exchange you don't get your Dex bonus to AC, ever, all your opponents have a +2 to hit you, you have a 50% miss chance on all your attacks, move at half speed, have a -4 penalty on Search checks and most strength and dex based checks. I don't see how giving you two feats, on which mearly lessens the above penalties, and the other which allows you to have a hope at figuring out where your opponents in combat, are making this character overpowered. It's 33.3~% actually but it's moot because you should pick up Blindsight, 5-ft. Radius anyway.In order to miss you must have both rolls fail. each roll has a 1/2 chance of failing. Since both need to occur you multiply them together. 1/2 * 1/2 = 1/4 = 25%. And doesn't Blindsight require a Wis of 19 anyways? Kinda hard for a low level character to pull off, yes?
rilem 08-02-06, 06:44 PM	That's like complaining that creatures without a con score are more powerful than one with a con score because they can't loose HP due to con damage. Not at all. Not having a Con score is a big deal that is very hard to overcome. Not so with blindness, which can be gotten around with a cheapo item, a bunch of spells, feats, class features, etc. 4. Colour Spray, Mirror Image, Silent Image Yay! Another low level spell that you're immune to. Anybody who disses these spells needs to hang out on the C/O board more. Color Spray is a 1st level spell, but it's a save-or-die first level spell. If you're a fighter-type, odds are you'll die vs. this one. Mirror Image is low-level, but it's a staple of Gish builds even into high-levels when True Seeing becomes available. A blind PC essentially gets Pierce Magical Concealment for free. And Silent Image? You're knocking Silent Image? Go read the Killer Gnome thread and bash Silent Image again. Blur/Displacement While we are immune to the 20%/50% miss chance due to concealment associated with these spells, we already have a 50% miss chance due to concealment, so it's kinda redundant. [quote] Again, any blind PC is going to have countermeasures up the wazoo as part and parcel of their character. So the effect is the same — you're step up in melee vs. opponents using these tactics. [quote] In exchange you don't get your Dex bonus to AC, ever, all your opponents have a +2 to hit you, you have a 50% miss chance on all your attacks, move at half speed, have a -4 penalty on Search checks and most strength and dex based checks. So give youself a low Dex. Or grab blindsight or blindfight and spend a feat the old-fashioned way. Take tacticle trapsmith. Realize that search penalties, by the rules, can go away with time. Do do any of the dozen things already mentioned and be ahead of the game.
Pellanor 08-03-06, 12:39 PM	Anybody who disses these spells needs to hang out on the C/O board more. Color Spray is a 1st level spell, but it's a save-or-die first level spell. If you're a fighter-type, odds are you'll die vs. this one. Mirror Image is low-level, but it's a staple of Gish builds even into high-levels when True Seeing becomes available. A blind PC essentially gets Pierce Magical Concealment for free. And Silent Image? You're knocking Silent Image? Go read the Killer Gnome thread and bash Silent Image again.I wasn't saying that these spells suck. They are good spells, but being immune to them doesn't make up for the fact that you're blind. And a blind PC does not get pierce magical concealment for free. Remeber EVERYTHING has full concealment vs a blind PC. The fact that he isn't further penalized is not a benefit. Again, any blind PC is going to have countermeasures up the wazoo as part and parcel of their character. So the effect is the same — you're step up in melee vs. opponents using these tactics. So give youself a low Dex. Or grab blindsight or blindfight and spend a feat the old-fashioned way. Take tacticle trapsmith. Realize that search penalties, by the rules, can go away with time. Do do any of the dozen things already mentioned and be ahead of the game.Yes, but none of these are benifits of beng blind. They're benfits of expending your resources on feats, gear, and class abilities on stuff that makes you more effective while blind. Any character who can see is just as capable of taking all of these feats, etc... and being just as good vs invisible opponents as a blind character is. Here's what I want you to do, take any build on these boards, and make two versions of the character, one where the character is blind, and one where the character isn't. Compare the two. Now tell me that the blind character is more powerful that the one who can see. I bet that the vast majority of the time, the sighted character will be better. Now take a character who's optimizaed for fighting while blind, and compare one blind version, vs one sighted version. I'm betting that the sighted character will be better. As long as you're comparing Apples to Apples, the blind character is always going to be at a disadvantage to a character who can see, outside of the few times when they're affected by the above spells.
Arismir 08-03-06, 01:44 PM	I guess I should also state that just because you can see doesn't mean you have to do it every second. As for countering the illusion spells listed, if you have blindsense or can cast a spell with it, just simply close your eyes. Er go, a character who can see can still receive all said advantages of a blind character. Really though, being blind does put you at a huge disadvantage.
rilem 08-03-06, 03:28 PM	Really though, being blind does put you at a huge disadvantage. Yes, it puts you at a disadvantage — more so in a wilderness campaign than a dungeon one. And then you take feats and whatnot to eliminate that disadvantage. It's not hard to do. And as a consequence, your PC is prebuilt to defeat all these conditions (and I looked into it — blindness does make you immune to Frightful Presence/Form of Madness, per RAW. Both require "observation" or "witnessing," which rely on sight). Yes, a sighted PC can close their eyes and have some of these same immunities — but they aren't prebuilt to take advantage of them. You are. My problem is with people who want to play a person with a handicap, and then get — for free — benefits that offset or eliminate that handicap. You want to play a blind guy, play one and take your feats like a grownup. Some compensation wouldn't be out of line — the listen-as-a-class-skill is a pretty good idea for a blind-from-childhood PC, and I'd probably eliminate the penalty for many skills. But to grant bonus feats in a game that already has abilities such as Blindsight and Tremorsense reduces your supposed ailment to "blindness as flavor-text". Oh, and Tim's reported, of course. EDIT: Just thought of something else. Since many blindness workarounds don't take effect until mid-levels, I could see giving bonus feats at an early level — but at the cost of later feats (essentially, you 'prepay' your feats to help early-game survivability).
Arismir 08-03-06, 03:56 PM	And then you take feats and whatnot to eliminate that disadvantage. It's not hard to do. And as a consequence, your PC is prebuilt to defeat all these conditions (and I looked into it — blindness does make you immune to Frightful Presence/Form of Madness, per RAW. Both require "observation" or "witnessing," which rely on sight). Yes, a sighted PC can close their eyes and have some of these same immunities — but they aren't prebuilt to take advantage of them. You are.Yes you can make a blind character function and work quasi-normally; however, no matter what, you are still spending gold, spells or a feat to do so. Those are feats, gold and spells that could be spent elsewhere. As Pellanor was stating with his challenge, a blind character compared to a character with sight is still underpowered. Furthermore, a character who can see can also be built to take advantage of not being able to see. The obvious example would be someone using darkness, obscuring mist, or anything of that sort. If you have a blind build based around preventing blindness and a character with sight based around being blind, the character with sight is still going to be more versatile and better. Also, closing your eyes also eliminates any skill of observation. I usually try not to look at a Basillisk when my DM throws one at us. I don't have to gouge my eyes to do so. Bottom line is that a character with sight can also be prebuilt to function without sight and are more versatile because they can use sight whenever needed. Aside from all of that, I've always wanted to play a Blind Druid and I've never had the chance. So, I wouldn't mind seeing this thread get back on track to it's original question of how best to compensate and overcome blindness. If you are a druid, Embrace the Wild is a level two spell that gives some great bonuses. It was nerfed in the spell compendium, so if you can get away with using the CAd version, you'll get blindsight 120'. Spell compendium only gives 30' blindsense. At higher levels permanent trueseeing is definately the way to go.
rilem 08-03-06, 04:41 PM	Yes you can make a blind character function and work quasi-normally ... however you are still spending gold, feats ... So why do they deserve nearly three bonus feats? One, maybe, but three? But I'll agree to disagree. Druids are EASY. You've got animal companions to be your seeing-eye ___, You've got Embrace the Wild (even nerfed, it's still good). You've got Listening Lorecall (which does grant blindsight by level 9). If your blindness is the result of lack of visual organs, just change into something with eyes. Bears can see. Another Option: Ghostwise Halfling Druid + Mindsight. Ghostwise halflings get limited telepathy, which makes them good for Druids to begin with. Other options: Human PsyWar1: Feats: Blind Fight, Psycrystal Afffinity, Psionic Weapon Powers: Synesthete Workaround: Psycrystal tells you where the door is. Blind Fight in combat. Synesthete in emergencies. Strongheart Halfling Rogue 2/Fighter1 Feats: Blind Fight, Hear the Unseen, Tactile Trapsmith, Quick Reconnoiter Duskling Barbarian2/Totemist1 Uncanny Dodge, Soulsight ... oops out of time. More later.
Pellanor 08-03-06, 05:48 PM	Looking at my old thread, it seems like most of the options have already been covered here. Oh yeah, a higher level solution is to pick up some of the combat form feats from PHBII. There's one that gives you blindsight 5' and only requires two other combat form feats, plus Blind Fight and a Wis of 13. It also lets you know the Current HP of all creatures adjacent to you. As for what kind of class to play... You need LoS in order to cast target spells on other creatures. This means that, unless you get blindsight, a caster/manifester will never be able to use spells/powers like charm person. Only spells that have an attack roll, or are an AoE will be effective for a caster. Even then, attack roll spells still have the miss %. The best type of character, IMHO, would be a melee combatant. Particulairly one with a High wis score in order to take Blindsight as a feat, and then sme abilities centered around that. I like the idea (as you may have seen from my thread) of a warmind with a level of shiba protector. Some of the stuff from Tome of Battle sounds like it may fit too.
wolfie-kun 08-03-06, 06:21 PM	Oh, and Tim's reported, of course. >.> Twice. I should read more next time... EDIT: Just thought of something else. Since many blindness workarounds don't take effect until mid-levels, I could see giving bonus feats at an early level — but at the cost of later feats (essentially, you 'prepay' your feats to help early-game survivability). Very good idea. I agree with that 100%. Any time you get an ability that makes one of the bonus feats a moot point, though, I'd open that slot back up. It would be pretty lame to permanently lose those, just because you sucked at 1st level.
Arismir 08-03-06, 06:58 PM	So why do they deserve nearly three bonus feats? One, maybe, but three? But I'll agree to disagree.I never said that or anything about bonus feats. I think you're mistaking me, Arismir, with Pellanor. I was merely commenting on the discussion of whether a blind character is more or less powerful than a character with sight. However, for my opinion on blindness and compensation. I think it could be viewed as a flaw as presented in unearthed arcana. Saying that murky-eyed which isn't even blindness can net you a bonus feat, as a DM, I would rule that being completely blind could also allow for a bonus feat. In most cases, I'm sure that bonus feat would be something to help compensate for the blindness. But as far as compensation is concerned, it'd be the DMs choice. I think you could easily play a blind character although he'd be underpowered to any character with sight without any sort of compensation. Personally, I don't try to play the most optimized character, but instead focus more heavily on role-playing. So in the case of a blind character, I would want to play him as if he was truly blind and without any bonus feats. For my suggestion of best class and race for a blind character. I'd go with human for the early bonus feat and play a melee oriented druid. I'd also pick up the feats, Blind Fight, Hear the Unseen and Quick Reconnoiter. There was a build posted recently for a Sacred Fist Druid (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=672559&page=1&pp=30) that I think would work nicely. My build might look something like this: LN Human Monk2/Shapeshift Druid8/Sacred Fist10 Monk1: Blind-fight, Extend Spell, Improved Unarmed Strike*, Stunning Fist* Monk2: Combat Reflexes* Monk2/Druid1: Hear the Unseen Monk2/Druid4: Quick Reconnoiter Monk2/Druid7: Combat Casting Monk2/Druid8/Sacred Fist2: Practiced Spellcaster ... Admittedly, you are at a significant feat disadvantage, but it's a pretty solid build that allows you to work with blindness.
tacoronte 08-04-06, 08:47 PM	May I suggest a completely different approach: Instead of focusing on how to be a better combatant, focus on improving your team's performance in combat (buffs & debuffs) and out of combat (diplomacy, information gathering, etc). Classes like Bard, Marshall, Dragon Shaman, Divine Mind bring many abilities to the table and can be a great asset for any party.
prototype00 08-05-06, 05:07 AM	Well, don't forget combat awareness 3.5's answer to blindsight 5ft radius. Scoring that first hit might be hard though. prototype00 Hey! My build got linked! Cool!