a budding Dragon Disciple [Archive] - Wizards Community

a budding Dragon Disciple [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Forged Goo
06-07-04, 10:49 PM I am thinking of becoming a Dragon Disciple. My character is currently a 2nd level sorcerer/1st level fighter. Any suggestions on which way i should go to make my Dragon Disciple? I am hoping to make him primarily a front line fighter bolstered with spells.
mellowship
06-09-04, 08:16 AM Originally posted by Forged Goo
I am thinking of becoming a Dragon Disciple. My character is currently a 2nd level sorcerer/1st level fighter. Any suggestions on which way i should go to make my Dragon Disciple? I am hoping to make him primarily a front line fighter bolstered with spells.
What are your current feats? What are your stats? And how much of your build can you retroactively change? Fighter/Sorcerer isn't really an optimum prefix for DD. Better are Fighter/Bard, Paladin/Sorcerer, or Fighter/Hexblade.

Unless you're a bard or a hexblade, or your sorcerer spells are True Strike and Feather Fall, arcane spell failure is going to be a big problem. If you're a fighter/sorcerer planning on going into DD and you have different 1st level spells, beg your DM to let you change them.

For a front-line combatant, going into DD basically means losing BAB to gain Str. So the optimum path is one that doesn't depend as much on BAB but leverages your Str. I recommend building your guy into a spiked chain tripper. It requires an Int of 13 or better, though.
spike81101
06-09-04, 09:14 AM Originally posted by Forged Goo
I am thinking of becoming a Dragon Disciple. My character is currently a 2nd level sorcerer/1st level fighter. Any suggestions on which way i should go to make my Dragon Disciple? I am hoping to make him primarily a front line fighter bolstered with spells. Seriously man, DD is one of the worst PrC's out there. If you want to be a fighter/wizard the best thing to do is become an eldritch knight. Most people who want to become DD's end up taking the half dragon template instead, you save yourself 7 levels of nothing. You could ask your DM if you can take the half dragon transformation template on the wizards site. It's ecl 3, much better than ecl 10 IMO. Here is the link.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a
mellowship
06-10-04, 12:44 AM Originally posted by spike81101
Seriously man, DD is one of the worst PrC's out there.
Oh, it has its virtues. It's somewhat underpowered, but not a complete waste.

If you want to be a fighter/wizard the best thing to do is become an eldritch knight.
That's for people who want more sorcerer than fighter. DD is a tank class with just a wee bit of spellcasting.

Most people who want to become DD's end up taking the half dragon template instead, you save yourself 7 levels of nothing. You could ask your DM if you can take the half dragon transformation template on the wizards site. It's ecl 3, much better than ecl 10 IMO.
With DD, you're getting a bit more than +3 LA in 10 levels. You're getting 10 d12 Hit Dice and 7 bonus spell slots. For a tank, the HD, coupled with the half-dragon benefits, are pretty nice. And the spell slots aren't totally deadweight.

If you're serious about optimizing a DD, the key is this: do not take more than two levels of sorcerer or four levels of bard. In fact, other than the sorcerer or bard levels and the DD levels, do not take any levels of a class that does not give you fighter BAB. If you do, your BAB by 20th level will fall below the +16 which is the absolute minimum for a viable tank. If you're a hexblade/DD, then it's OK to take up to two levels of a low-BAB class or four levels of a medium-BAB class. However you manage it, do not lose more than +1 of BAB outside of the +3 you're losing by going DD; you will suck as a tank otherwise.

Another important point: to get maximum mileage out of those bonus spell slots, do not apply them to sorcerer spells if you can help it. Sorcerers get plenty enough spell slots as it is. Better to apply them to paladin or bard spells. Also, do not start going into DD until you're done with all of your spellcasting levels; that way, the DD bonus spell slots apply to your highest level of spells. And do not use sorcerer levels in your DD prefix unless you insist on being Lawful Good (such as if you're a paladin). If you're nonlawful, then bard is better, and if you're nongood, then hexblade is better. If you're nonlawful AND nongood, take your pick; they're both about equally viable.

Here's a few interesting builds:

Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 5/DD 10. This is the best spellcaster of the bunch; it ends up with 7th level casting and 3rd level bard spells. The ASF reduction doesn't mean much, but you can channel stuff like Sound Burst and Slow into your weapon to screw your enemies.

Paladin 4/Sorcerer 2/DD 10/whatever 4. Put the bonus spell slots into paladin. Pump Cha, take lots of Divine feats. Needs at least a 12 Wis.

Hexblade 4/Rogue 3/Blackguard 3/DD 10. This evil guy gets Mettle, Evasion, Cha to saves twice. Very hard to kill.
cowdragon
06-10-04, 01:18 AM While I agree with mellowship on many of his points, it has always been my goal to try and make viable casting type characters out of the DD. I almost got it too.

Try this out. It doesn't have to be exact...just similar.

1)Sorc
2)Sorc
3)Ftr
4)Sorc
5)Sorc
6)Sorc
7)DD
8)DD
9)SpellSword(to get rid of that pesky arcane spell failure)
10)Sorc
11)Sorc
12)Sorc
13-20)DD

Feats: first three you already got so it doesn't matter. But fit in things like power attack, arcane strike(great use of bonus spells), Powerful Charge, Hurling Charge, Quick Draw. Sudden Meta-Magic feats are nice too. And never ever forget about Practiced Spellcasting/Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration. You could get caster level 17-18 depending on the build. Take Shadow Weave magic and have a 19 caster level. Not too shabby. Granted, at the most you'll only have 4th-5th level spells. But you'll have alot of them. Make sure they don't have saves(vampiric touch is beautiful). Palin's Pyre. Scorching Ray. Touch of Idiocy. Then all you gotta worry about is SR. Have fun and good luck.

The Cowdragon :mage:
Blade2718
06-10-04, 01:19 AM Originally posted by mellowship
Hexblade 4/Rogue 3/Blackguard 3/DD 10. This evil guy gets Mettle, Evasion, Cha to saves twice. Very hard to kill.

I'm only seeing once from Blk's Dark Blessing.

A non-optimal solution is to go advance some Sor levels to get higher level spells at the cost of BAB. For a gish-stlye tank, its not so horrible, though you would of course be better served by BEING a gish.
MorandirNailo
06-10-04, 01:55 AM Hexblades get Cha to saves against Arcane spells, hence the twice part.

Mor
mellowship
06-10-04, 05:15 AM Originally posted by cowdragon
While I agree with mellowship on many of his points, it has always been my goal to try and make viable casting type characters out of the DD. I almost got it too.

Try this out. It doesn't have to be exact...just similar.

1)Sorc
2)Sorc
3)Ftr
4)Sorc
5)Sorc
6)Sorc
7)DD
8)DD
9)SpellSword(to get rid of that pesky arcane spell failure)
10)Sorc
11)Sorc
12)Sorc
13-20)DD

Feats: first three you already got so it doesn't matter. But fit in things like power attack, arcane strike(great use of bonus spells), Powerful Charge, Hurling Charge, Quick Draw. Sudden Meta-Magic feats are nice too. And never ever forget about Practiced Spellcasting/Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration. You could get caster level 17-18 depending on the build. Take Shadow Weave magic and have a 19 caster level. Not too shabby. Granted, at the most you'll only have 4th-5th level spells. But you'll have alot of them. Make sure they don't have saves(vampiric touch is beautiful). Palin's Pyre. Scorching Ray. Touch of Idiocy. Then all you gotta worry about is SR. Have fun and good luck.
That's a seriously suboptimal build. DD just isn't cut out to be a real spellcaster...not even a half spellcaster. DD is a tank class with a few extra spell slots. But since it only gets medium BAB, you really don't want to sacrifice any more by taking more than two sorcerer levels.

Also, it's a better idea to have your fighter levels before your sorcerer levels. That'll give you a few extra hp and help your low-level survivability.

However...if you want to keep your caster level up, here's the way to do it:

Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 3/Rage Mage 1/DD 10.

You wind up with 6 caster levels normally (and a heck of a lot of 3rd level slots), but while raging, your effective caster level = character level. The most serious problem with this build is that it ends up with +14 BAB...so no fourth iterative attack, and your Power Attacks are wussier. Arcane Strike can help somewhat, but not quite enough, IMO.

Going Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 5/Rage Mage 1/DD 8 will give you +16 BAB, 7 caster levels (20 while raging) for 3rd level bard spells, better Reflex saves, and you can heal. The only catch is that you won't be able to finish up DD until epic.
cowdragon
06-11-04, 12:11 AM Hey, I know I know. I realize it's seriously suboptimal. Also, part of that is because I was trying to start with the fighter/sorcerer start. Oh well.

Anyway, the main point of my reply(which was confusing because I do not explain things very well most times) is that it's fun to take a class(DD) obviously meant for one thing(melee) and use it for something completly different... or at least from a bit of a different angle.

Now, I realize that the DD is not the best prestige class in the world for min/maxing. However, it's my personal favorite for roleplaying. For me... can't be beaten. Here's the problem though. I like sorcerers alot too. I don't like much else for playing. It works well for my gaming group too, because we have a fighter and we have a wizard. I am the "in-between" character. This rocks for my play style. If the wizards spell failf or is interupted...I can fire something off for backup. Also, I can buff or summon(depending on my spell list) if the fighter is in trouble, I can move in and SMASH stuff.

So, I like to make casting Dragon Disciples. Your builds are far more "optimal" than mine. That's cool. Mine are a very specific flavor. So, when it actually comes down to it, yours is probably more helpful :)

But here's a fun one I'm workin on right now for the Realms.

1-10)Battle Sorcerer
11-20)Dragon Disciple

Human base race
Feats: (8)
1.Still Spell
2.Eschew Materials
3.Shadow Weave Magic
4.Arcane Strike
5.Spell Penetration
6.Greater Spell Penetration
7.Practiced Spellcasting
8.Silent Spell

He's kinda fun, pretty good with a few spells, and his caster level for most of the spells he will know will be 19!!! Granted he will only have one 5th level and one 4th level spell, but if chosen well, a very fun and even powerful character to play. Decent BAB, awesome hit points, lots of spells/day. He can cast spells bound and gagged if he has to. He needs no material components for most spells. He is independent of other characters if he needs to be. Ya gotta kinda agree right? no?

The Cowdragon :mage:
mellowship
06-11-04, 05:23 AM Originally posted by cowdragon
Anyway, the main point of my reply(which was confusing because I do not explain things very well most times) is that it's fun to take a class(DD) obviously meant for one thing(melee) and use it for something completly different... or at least from a bit of a different angle.
The problem is, though, that when you take a class that's already on the underpowered side as the DD is, but fail to take advantage of its synergies, then your character will suck against level-appropriate opposition. With the DD, you really need to wring everything you can out of it in order to make a viable character with it.

Now, I realize that the DD is not the best prestige class in the world for min/maxing. However, it's my personal favorite for roleplaying. For me... can't be beaten. Here's the problem though. I like sorcerers alot too. I don't like much else for playing.
Yeah, sorcerer is one of my fave classes too.

It works well for my gaming group too, because we have a fighter and we have a wizard. I am the "in-between" character. This rocks for my play style. If the wizards spell failf or is interupted...I can fire something off for backup. Also, I can buff or summon(depending on my spell list) if the fighter is in trouble, I can move in and SMASH stuff.
Your DM must be throwing some pretty weak opposition at you.

A mixed fighter/spellcaster type can be viable, but the way to make it work is to use your spells to buff yourself up. Level-appropriate enemies will shrug off your relatively weak attack spells.

Summoning is a great benefit to the rogues in the party, because you can drop your pets into flanking positions.

So, I like to make casting Dragon Disciples. Your builds are far more "optimal" than mine. That's cool. Mine are a very specific flavor. So, when it actually comes down to it, yours is probably more helpful :)
For me, the PrC provides the flavor, and I try to come up with builds that make the most of its abilities. For DD, that mainly means tank builds.

But here's a fun one I'm workin on right now for the Realms.

1-10)Battle Sorcerer
11-20)Dragon Disciple

He's kinda fun, pretty good with a few spells, and his caster level for most of the spells he will know will be 19!!! Granted he will only have one 5th level and one 4th level spell, but if chosen well, a very fun and even powerful character to play. Decent BAB, awesome hit points, lots of spells/day. He can cast spells bound and gagged if he has to. He needs no material components for most spells. He is independent of other characters if he needs to be. Ya gotta kinda agree right? no?
For a guy who's supposed to be a warrior, his BAB isn't so hot; only +14 at 20th level.

I will admit that Battle Sorcerer makes for a good DD prefix, though. However, Fighter 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/DD 10 would work better, IMO. It only gets you 7 caster levels and 3rd level spells, but BAB is that magic +16, you get an extra feat, and you can Channel spells into your weapon.
cellardweller
06-11-04, 10:15 AM Most of the DD builds that I see posted go all the way to level 10. If you are going to do this you may as well save your self the trouble and become a half dragon.

This doesn't mean that a few levels of DD doesn't have its place - it just requires a bit of "outside the box" thinking. For example a Rgr 2/Rog 3/Ass8/X5 could do well with a couple of levels of DD thrown in before the X5. It gives you an extra bite attack at your bab (16) -5 to deliver SA damage with during a full attack and a bonus 4th level spell slot at no real cost.

Some of the "faster spell progression" divine fighters do quite well too. Take hex4/rgr2/blkg7/DD7 - it adds your 4th level blackguard spells while adding to your stats. Without really trying, this build gets 6 attacks a round(+16/+11/+6/+1 2Hweapon, +16 armour spikes, +11 Bite) and has 5 4th level spells slots.
mellowship
06-11-04, 11:41 AM Originally posted by cellardweller
Most of the DD builds that I see posted go all the way to level 10. If you are going to do this you may as well save your self the trouble and become a half dragon.
Well, that's because at the 9th level you get wings and at 10th you get +4 Str, +1 natural armor, and +2 Cha.

This doesn't mean that a few levels of DD doesn't have its place - it just requires a bit of "outside the box" thinking. For example a Rgr 2/Rog 3/Ass8/X5 could do well with a couple of levels of DD thrown in before the X5. It gives you an extra bite attack at your bab (16) -5 to deliver SA damage with during a full attack and a bonus 4th level spell slot at no real cost.
If you're going to dip into DD, a good breakpoint is DD 4. With that, you only lose +1 BAB, but you gain +4 Str, +2 natural armor, a claw/claw/bite attack, and three bonus spell slots. Oh, and a piddling breath weapon.

Some of the "faster spell progression" divine fighters do quite well too. Take hex4/rgr2/blkg7/DD7 - it adds your 4th level blackguard spells while adding to your stats. Without really trying, this build gets 6 attacks a round(+16/+11/+6/+1 2Hweapon, +16 armour spikes, +11 Bite) and has 5 4th level spells slots.
Hrm. Tricky part about that build is that it's pretty stat intensive; you need high Str, Con, Wis, and Cha, and at least average Int and Dex. It wouldn't work very well unless you had at least 32 points to build with.
Aluroon
06-11-04, 04:11 PM I'ms just poping in here to say I find this thread rather interesting. I am currently looking at taking a gnome bard into dragon dispiple levels. My first idea was nice and simple, bard10/dragon disiple10, although looking at this thread as givin me some new ideas, the big incentiave with bard10 is I pick up Shout, and either Greater Invisibility or Dimension door or Legend Lore.

What I really like about shout is it give the character a little power aginest masses of orcs and such, something the bard is otherwise rather weak aginest. The Dragon disple levels not only give some nice mellie bonuses, bonus spells, and flaver, but also provoide tons of abillity score bonus. The only other idea is bard7/dragon disple10/Half Dragon Paragon3, both are prety nice.

Well this post that was supposed to be like 2 lines turned into 20 but oh well

Aluroon
cowdragon
06-12-04, 12:18 AM you could also take Spell Thematics to bump caster level for a few spells up to 20th. Not really weak. ;)

Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Practiced Spellcaster, Shadow Weave Magic, Spell Thematics. Dragon Disciple 10/Battle Sorcerer 10. This leaves 2 or 3 (if human) feats you can get also. Like improved initiative, multi-attack, silent spell, still spell, arcane strike, or any number of other feats to choose from. You are a 20th level caster in a 20th level campaign. Cool huh? I know it's very feat intensive, but remember, you are still getting D12 hit dice, claw/claw/bite, breath weapon, natural armor, 7 bonus spells, wings, blindsense, +14 to attributes, and a really fun and cool story for your character. Like I said, I don't want a totally min/maxed character, I just want a viable casting DD. So, I keep trying. It's as my mother always said to me though... "yes Cowdragon, you are VERY trying." Thanks mom. :)

The Cowdragon :mage:

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Forged Goo 06-07-04, 10:49 PM	I am thinking of becoming a Dragon Disciple. My character is currently a 2nd level sorcerer/1st level fighter. Any suggestions on which way i should go to make my Dragon Disciple? I am hoping to make him primarily a front line fighter bolstered with spells.
mellowship 06-09-04, 08:16 AM	Originally posted by Forged Goo I am thinking of becoming a Dragon Disciple. My character is currently a 2nd level sorcerer/1st level fighter. Any suggestions on which way i should go to make my Dragon Disciple? I am hoping to make him primarily a front line fighter bolstered with spells. What are your current feats? What are your stats? And how much of your build can you retroactively change? Fighter/Sorcerer isn't really an optimum prefix for DD. Better are Fighter/Bard, Paladin/Sorcerer, or Fighter/Hexblade. Unless you're a bard or a hexblade, or your sorcerer spells are True Strike and Feather Fall, arcane spell failure is going to be a big problem. If you're a fighter/sorcerer planning on going into DD and you have different 1st level spells, beg your DM to let you change them. For a front-line combatant, going into DD basically means losing BAB to gain Str. So the optimum path is one that doesn't depend as much on BAB but leverages your Str. I recommend building your guy into a spiked chain tripper. It requires an Int of 13 or better, though.
spike81101 06-09-04, 09:14 AM	Originally posted by Forged Goo I am thinking of becoming a Dragon Disciple. My character is currently a 2nd level sorcerer/1st level fighter. Any suggestions on which way i should go to make my Dragon Disciple? I am hoping to make him primarily a front line fighter bolstered with spells. Seriously man, DD is one of the worst PrC's out there. If you want to be a fighter/wizard the best thing to do is become an eldritch knight. Most people who want to become DD's end up taking the half dragon template instead, you save yourself 7 levels of nothing. You could ask your DM if you can take the half dragon transformation template on the wizards site. It's ecl 3, much better than ecl 10 IMO. Here is the link. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030912a
mellowship 06-10-04, 12:44 AM	Originally posted by spike81101 Seriously man, DD is one of the worst PrC's out there. Oh, it has its virtues. It's somewhat underpowered, but not a complete waste. If you want to be a fighter/wizard the best thing to do is become an eldritch knight. That's for people who want more sorcerer than fighter. DD is a tank class with just a wee bit of spellcasting. Most people who want to become DD's end up taking the half dragon template instead, you save yourself 7 levels of nothing. You could ask your DM if you can take the half dragon transformation template on the wizards site. It's ecl 3, much better than ecl 10 IMO. With DD, you're getting a bit more than +3 LA in 10 levels. You're getting 10 d12 Hit Dice and 7 bonus spell slots. For a tank, the HD, coupled with the half-dragon benefits, are pretty nice. And the spell slots aren't totally deadweight. If you're serious about optimizing a DD, the key is this: do not take more than two levels of sorcerer or four levels of bard. In fact, other than the sorcerer or bard levels and the DD levels, do not take any levels of a class that does not give you fighter BAB. If you do, your BAB by 20th level will fall below the +16 which is the absolute minimum for a viable tank. If you're a hexblade/DD, then it's OK to take up to two levels of a low-BAB class or four levels of a medium-BAB class. However you manage it, do not lose more than +1 of BAB outside of the +3 you're losing by going DD; you will suck as a tank otherwise. Another important point: to get maximum mileage out of those bonus spell slots, do not apply them to sorcerer spells if you can help it. Sorcerers get plenty enough spell slots as it is. Better to apply them to paladin or bard spells. Also, do not start going into DD until you're done with all of your spellcasting levels; that way, the DD bonus spell slots apply to your highest level of spells. And do not use sorcerer levels in your DD prefix unless you insist on being Lawful Good (such as if you're a paladin). If you're nonlawful, then bard is better, and if you're nongood, then hexblade is better. If you're nonlawful AND nongood, take your pick; they're both about equally viable. Here's a few interesting builds: Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 5/DD 10. This is the best spellcaster of the bunch; it ends up with 7th level casting and 3rd level bard spells. The ASF reduction doesn't mean much, but you can channel stuff like Sound Burst and Slow into your weapon to screw your enemies. Paladin 4/Sorcerer 2/DD 10/whatever 4. Put the bonus spell slots into paladin. Pump Cha, take lots of Divine feats. Needs at least a 12 Wis. Hexblade 4/Rogue 3/Blackguard 3/DD 10. This evil guy gets Mettle, Evasion, Cha to saves twice. Very hard to kill.
cowdragon 06-10-04, 01:18 AM	While I agree with mellowship on many of his points, it has always been my goal to try and make viable casting type characters out of the DD. I almost got it too. Try this out. It doesn't have to be exact...just similar. 1)Sorc 2)Sorc 3)Ftr 4)Sorc 5)Sorc 6)Sorc 7)DD 8)DD 9)SpellSword(to get rid of that pesky arcane spell failure) 10)Sorc 11)Sorc 12)Sorc 13-20)DD Feats: first three you already got so it doesn't matter. But fit in things like power attack, arcane strike(great use of bonus spells), Powerful Charge, Hurling Charge, Quick Draw. Sudden Meta-Magic feats are nice too. And never ever forget about Practiced Spellcasting/Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration. You could get caster level 17-18 depending on the build. Take Shadow Weave magic and have a 19 caster level. Not too shabby. Granted, at the most you'll only have 4th-5th level spells. But you'll have alot of them. Make sure they don't have saves(vampiric touch is beautiful). Palin's Pyre. Scorching Ray. Touch of Idiocy. Then all you gotta worry about is SR. Have fun and good luck. The Cowdragon :mage:
Blade2718 06-10-04, 01:19 AM	Originally posted by mellowship Hexblade 4/Rogue 3/Blackguard 3/DD 10. This evil guy gets Mettle, Evasion, Cha to saves twice. Very hard to kill. I'm only seeing once from Blk's Dark Blessing. A non-optimal solution is to go advance some Sor levels to get higher level spells at the cost of BAB. For a gish-stlye tank, its not so horrible, though you would of course be better served by BEING a gish.
MorandirNailo 06-10-04, 01:55 AM	Hexblades get Cha to saves against Arcane spells, hence the twice part. Mor
mellowship 06-10-04, 05:15 AM	Originally posted by cowdragon While I agree with mellowship on many of his points, it has always been my goal to try and make viable casting type characters out of the DD. I almost got it too. Try this out. It doesn't have to be exact...just similar. 1)Sorc 2)Sorc 3)Ftr 4)Sorc 5)Sorc 6)Sorc 7)DD 8)DD 9)SpellSword(to get rid of that pesky arcane spell failure) 10)Sorc 11)Sorc 12)Sorc 13-20)DD Feats: first three you already got so it doesn't matter. But fit in things like power attack, arcane strike(great use of bonus spells), Powerful Charge, Hurling Charge, Quick Draw. Sudden Meta-Magic feats are nice too. And never ever forget about Practiced Spellcasting/Spell Penetration/Greater Spell Penetration. You could get caster level 17-18 depending on the build. Take Shadow Weave magic and have a 19 caster level. Not too shabby. Granted, at the most you'll only have 4th-5th level spells. But you'll have alot of them. Make sure they don't have saves(vampiric touch is beautiful). Palin's Pyre. Scorching Ray. Touch of Idiocy. Then all you gotta worry about is SR. Have fun and good luck. That's a seriously suboptimal build. DD just isn't cut out to be a real spellcaster...not even a half spellcaster. DD is a tank class with a few extra spell slots. But since it only gets medium BAB, you really don't want to sacrifice any more by taking more than two sorcerer levels. Also, it's a better idea to have your fighter levels before your sorcerer levels. That'll give you a few extra hp and help your low-level survivability. However...if you want to keep your caster level up, here's the way to do it: Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 3/Rage Mage 1/DD 10. You wind up with 6 caster levels normally (and a heck of a lot of 3rd level slots), but while raging, your effective caster level = character level. The most serious problem with this build is that it ends up with +14 BAB...so no fourth iterative attack, and your Power Attacks are wussier. Arcane Strike can help somewhat, but not quite enough, IMO. Going Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Bard 4/Spellsword 5/Rage Mage 1/DD 8 will give you +16 BAB, 7 caster levels (20 while raging) for 3rd level bard spells, better Reflex saves, and you can heal. The only catch is that you won't be able to finish up DD until epic.
cowdragon 06-11-04, 12:11 AM	Hey, I know I know. I realize it's seriously suboptimal. Also, part of that is because I was trying to start with the fighter/sorcerer start. Oh well. Anyway, the main point of my reply(which was confusing because I do not explain things very well most times) is that it's fun to take a class(DD) obviously meant for one thing(melee) and use it for something completly different... or at least from a bit of a different angle. Now, I realize that the DD is not the best prestige class in the world for min/maxing. However, it's my personal favorite for roleplaying. For me... can't be beaten. Here's the problem though. I like sorcerers alot too. I don't like much else for playing. It works well for my gaming group too, because we have a fighter and we have a wizard. I am the "in-between" character. This rocks for my play style. If the wizards spell failf or is interupted...I can fire something off for backup. Also, I can buff or summon(depending on my spell list) if the fighter is in trouble, I can move in and SMASH stuff. So, I like to make casting Dragon Disciples. Your builds are far more "optimal" than mine. That's cool. Mine are a very specific flavor. So, when it actually comes down to it, yours is probably more helpful :) But here's a fun one I'm workin on right now for the Realms. 1-10)Battle Sorcerer 11-20)Dragon Disciple Human base race Feats: (8) 1.Still Spell 2.Eschew Materials 3.Shadow Weave Magic 4.Arcane Strike 5.Spell Penetration 6.Greater Spell Penetration 7.Practiced Spellcasting 8.Silent Spell He's kinda fun, pretty good with a few spells, and his caster level for most of the spells he will know will be 19!!! Granted he will only have one 5th level and one 4th level spell, but if chosen well, a very fun and even powerful character to play. Decent BAB, awesome hit points, lots of spells/day. He can cast spells bound and gagged if he has to. He needs no material components for most spells. He is independent of other characters if he needs to be. Ya gotta kinda agree right? no? The Cowdragon :mage:
mellowship 06-11-04, 05:23 AM	Originally posted by cowdragon Anyway, the main point of my reply(which was confusing because I do not explain things very well most times) is that it's fun to take a class(DD) obviously meant for one thing(melee) and use it for something completly different... or at least from a bit of a different angle. The problem is, though, that when you take a class that's already on the underpowered side as the DD is, but fail to take advantage of its synergies, then your character will suck against level-appropriate opposition. With the DD, you really need to wring everything you can out of it in order to make a viable character with it. Now, I realize that the DD is not the best prestige class in the world for min/maxing. However, it's my personal favorite for roleplaying. For me... can't be beaten. Here's the problem though. I like sorcerers alot too. I don't like much else for playing. Yeah, sorcerer is one of my fave classes too. It works well for my gaming group too, because we have a fighter and we have a wizard. I am the "in-between" character. This rocks for my play style. If the wizards spell failf or is interupted...I can fire something off for backup. Also, I can buff or summon(depending on my spell list) if the fighter is in trouble, I can move in and SMASH stuff. Your DM must be throwing some pretty weak opposition at you. A mixed fighter/spellcaster type can be viable, but the way to make it work is to use your spells to buff yourself up. Level-appropriate enemies will shrug off your relatively weak attack spells. Summoning is a great benefit to the rogues in the party, because you can drop your pets into flanking positions. So, I like to make casting Dragon Disciples. Your builds are far more "optimal" than mine. That's cool. Mine are a very specific flavor. So, when it actually comes down to it, yours is probably more helpful :) For me, the PrC provides the flavor, and I try to come up with builds that make the most of its abilities. For DD, that mainly means tank builds. But here's a fun one I'm workin on right now for the Realms. 1-10)Battle Sorcerer 11-20)Dragon Disciple He's kinda fun, pretty good with a few spells, and his caster level for most of the spells he will know will be 19!!! Granted he will only have one 5th level and one 4th level spell, but if chosen well, a very fun and even powerful character to play. Decent BAB, awesome hit points, lots of spells/day. He can cast spells bound and gagged if he has to. He needs no material components for most spells. He is independent of other characters if he needs to be. Ya gotta kinda agree right? no? For a guy who's supposed to be a warrior, his BAB isn't so hot; only +14 at 20th level. I will admit that Battle Sorcerer makes for a good DD prefix, though. However, Fighter 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 5/DD 10 would work better, IMO. It only gets you 7 caster levels and 3rd level spells, but BAB is that magic +16, you get an extra feat, and you can Channel spells into your weapon.
cellardweller 06-11-04, 10:15 AM	Most of the DD builds that I see posted go all the way to level 10. If you are going to do this you may as well save your self the trouble and become a half dragon. This doesn't mean that a few levels of DD doesn't have its place - it just requires a bit of "outside the box" thinking. For example a Rgr 2/Rog 3/Ass8/X5 could do well with a couple of levels of DD thrown in before the X5. It gives you an extra bite attack at your bab (16) -5 to deliver SA damage with during a full attack and a bonus 4th level spell slot at no real cost. Some of the "faster spell progression" divine fighters do quite well too. Take hex4/rgr2/blkg7/DD7 - it adds your 4th level blackguard spells while adding to your stats. Without really trying, this build gets 6 attacks a round(+16/+11/+6/+1 2Hweapon, +16 armour spikes, +11 Bite) and has 5 4th level spells slots.
mellowship 06-11-04, 11:41 AM	Originally posted by cellardweller Most of the DD builds that I see posted go all the way to level 10. If you are going to do this you may as well save your self the trouble and become a half dragon. Well, that's because at the 9th level you get wings and at 10th you get +4 Str, +1 natural armor, and +2 Cha. This doesn't mean that a few levels of DD doesn't have its place - it just requires a bit of "outside the box" thinking. For example a Rgr 2/Rog 3/Ass8/X5 could do well with a couple of levels of DD thrown in before the X5. It gives you an extra bite attack at your bab (16) -5 to deliver SA damage with during a full attack and a bonus 4th level spell slot at no real cost. If you're going to dip into DD, a good breakpoint is DD 4. With that, you only lose +1 BAB, but you gain +4 Str, +2 natural armor, a claw/claw/bite attack, and three bonus spell slots. Oh, and a piddling breath weapon. Some of the "faster spell progression" divine fighters do quite well too. Take hex4/rgr2/blkg7/DD7 - it adds your 4th level blackguard spells while adding to your stats. Without really trying, this build gets 6 attacks a round(+16/+11/+6/+1 2Hweapon, +16 armour spikes, +11 Bite) and has 5 4th level spells slots. Hrm. Tricky part about that build is that it's pretty stat intensive; you need high Str, Con, Wis, and Cha, and at least average Int and Dex. It wouldn't work very well unless you had at least 32 points to build with.
Aluroon 06-11-04, 04:11 PM	I'ms just poping in here to say I find this thread rather interesting. I am currently looking at taking a gnome bard into dragon dispiple levels. My first idea was nice and simple, bard10/dragon disiple10, although looking at this thread as givin me some new ideas, the big incentiave with bard10 is I pick up Shout, and either Greater Invisibility or Dimension door or Legend Lore. What I really like about shout is it give the character a little power aginest masses of orcs and such, something the bard is otherwise rather weak aginest. The Dragon disple levels not only give some nice mellie bonuses, bonus spells, and flaver, but also provoide tons of abillity score bonus. The only other idea is bard7/dragon disple10/Half Dragon Paragon3, both are prety nice. Well this post that was supposed to be like 2 lines turned into 20 but oh well Aluroon
cowdragon 06-12-04, 12:18 AM	you could also take Spell Thematics to bump caster level for a few spells up to 20th. Not really weak. ;) Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Practiced Spellcaster, Shadow Weave Magic, Spell Thematics. Dragon Disciple 10/Battle Sorcerer 10. This leaves 2 or 3 (if human) feats you can get also. Like improved initiative, multi-attack, silent spell, still spell, arcane strike, or any number of other feats to choose from. You are a 20th level caster in a 20th level campaign. Cool huh? I know it's very feat intensive, but remember, you are still getting D12 hit dice, claw/claw/bite, breath weapon, natural armor, 7 bonus spells, wings, blindsense, +14 to attributes, and a really fun and cool story for your character. Like I said, I don't want a totally min/maxed character, I just want a viable casting DD. So, I keep trying. It's as my mother always said to me though... "yes Cowdragon, you are VERY trying." Thanks mom. :) The Cowdragon :mage: