A build around this concept : please help [Archive] - Wizards Community

A build around this concept : please help [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KimHal
03-27-04, 05:57 AM I will join a party of five adventurers in the Realms, so I have to create a character (obviously...).
The DM may be a bit weird sometimes (and so can I), so don't be too surprised with what follows !

The existing party :
Moon Elf Ninja 5 / Wizard 5
Moon Elf Archer 8 (Probably Fighter 5 / OotBI 3 or similar)
Moon Elf Bard 9
Human Cleric 1 / Bard 9
Human Rogue 9

How they managed to survive up to CL10 is beyond me, but anyway...

The conditions :
Use Core Books (3.5), splatbooks, Realms Books (FRCS, MoF, F&P, and probably a few others : I don't own any of them except FRCS, but the DM has a large collection), and maybe a few other "quite common" books (OA should be possible, for instance)

Create a CL8 character
Abilities : any abilities in the range 3 - 18 (before applying racial mods) whose sum is 84 (so this is better than point buy). Add bonus points at levels 4 and 8.
Equipment : a +2 weapon, a +1 weapon, a +2 armor and a +1 shield as "gifts" (I suupose that might be tweaked a little bit, in case of a spellcaster or a monk), plus 27,000 GP.

I'd like quite a versatile character with synergy around high Cha (this is just something I'd like to try for once). Other considerations that guided my choices are :
- I'd like him a little bit sneaky, because most of the party is
- I like high saves !
- If he can be quite different from what he seems at first sight, so much the better.
- I'd like him to be already interesting at CL8, with some room for improvement at higher level...

Here is what I came up with (Warning : I'm well aware of the alignment shift between CL2 and 3, but I think the DM might be OK with a good background, which I will easily provide) :
Human
STR 16
DEX 14
CON 12
INT 12
WIS 12
CHA 18

CL 1 Monk 1 (improved grapple) Iron Will
CL 2 Monk 2 (combat reflexes)
CL 3 Barbarian 1 Weapon Focus
CL 4 Barbarian 2
CL 5 Ranger 1
CL 6 Ranger 2 (rapid shot) Power Attack
CL 7 Holy Liberator 1
CL 8 Holy Liberator 2

Planned future :
CL 9 Holy Liberator 3 Divine Might
CL 10 Ranger 3
CL 11 Templar 1
CL 12 Divine Champion 1
I'm not decided on the fighting style from level 3, but I was thinking 2H (a greatsword or something similar...)

At level 8, this gives Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Divine Grace (+4 to all saves), plus some neat "surprising abilities" for a 2H-wielder (such as improved grapple for those who would like to use this tactic against me...).
At level 9, turn undead for divinine might, and immunity to enchantment to boost.
At level 11, mettle and weapon specialization are nice.
For skills : Diplomacy 5rks at level 2 (to be improved later), plus some sneak abilities, to be improved with the ranger levels. Kn(rel) during HL levels (prereq for Templar and DChamp)
The rest is free.
Not sure on the Lvl1 human bonus feat (Impr Init ? or PA at lvl 1 and Cleave at lvl 6 ?). No precise idea for Lvl12 feat either.

Any comment ? Any improvement ? Ideas for equipment ?
LordShade
03-27-04, 06:16 AM I think it's a good build. At first I was going to suggest the classic Bbn1/Ftr2/Rog3 prefix for HL, but then I realized you needed endurance for templar so Rgr3 is in (2 feats from 3 levels, plus good skills and saves). I also realized that Monk is better than rogue for your purposes as 1) you don't care about SA 2) you like high saves and 3) your party already has 4 roguish types. Monk also gives you good feats.

Did you take Bbn2 for uncanny dodge? Otherwise, a level of fighter or an additional PrC level might serve you better.

Finishing with Divine Champion is a great idea, as it's a great class. You might also want to look into tacking Shou Disciple levels onto the end. I personally like SD for characters that dip into monk, as the class gives martial flurry at 5th, which is awesome for a divine might greatsword. You already have most of the prereqs from the monk levels, and moreover you get bonus feats and dodge bonuses to AC, as well as some extra unarmed damage in a pinch. And pretty good saves, high BAB, an interesting skill list, and d10 hp.

Alternately, you could drop divine champion/shou disciple and instead focus on a barbarian PrC such as Runescarred, Frenzied or Champion of Gwynwoetiyawpoeiuraopreu. You seem to be more concerned with defense/survival (smart IMO) than offense, though, so maybe Frenzied is out and you'd like to go with a more controlled fighting style than the rage (however, remember the other 2 prcs give damage reduction).

Your character looks to be shaping up nicely. Hope this helps!

edit - oh, and take your barbarian levels first if possible if your DM will allow 2 alignment switches. If not, at least start with ranger (it gives more skill points than monk).
KimHal
03-27-04, 06:22 AM Thanks for the quick reply

You might also want to look into tacking Shou Disciple levels onto the end.

I don't know SD. Where does it come from ?
Laelenie
03-27-04, 06:26 AM Unapprochable East(FR) page around 32
LordShade
03-27-04, 06:27 AM Unapproachable East, I think. Grab your DM's copy if you can, it is worth a look.
KimHal
03-27-04, 04:48 PM OK, thanks.

Any other comment ?

What about equipment ? I was thinking of a mithral breastplate (if I can decide the DM on this one, since he seems to consider special material to be very rare...). Does it sound good ? Any "must have" for this kind of character ?
KimHal
03-30-04, 03:33 AM which is awesome for a divine might greatsword

Except that Complete Warrior updated Divine Might to last only for 1 round, turning a great feat into an (IMO) completely worthless one...

Finishing with Divine Champion is a great idea, as it's a great class.

Except that Player's Guide to Faerun updated the class, and now the Reflex Save is no longer good... making DC quite a suboptimal choice !

Is there anything to be saved ?
rilem
03-30-04, 11:12 AM Originally posted by KimHal
Except that Complete Warrior updated Divine Might to last only for 1 round, turning a great feat into an (IMO) completely worthless one...

Divine Might is still good, it's just no longer a no-brainer. (And any feat that is a no-brainer is generally a too-powerful one).

What makes it synergize well with Shou Disciple is that Shou gives you an extra attack with a GreatSword with the Martial Flurry ability — which means an extra use of Divine Might in that round. It's worth it.

Haven't seen the new Divine Champion yet, but a couple levels of a poor reflex save isn't going to hurt you that badly (Shou gets good Fort/Ref, by the way).
LordShade
03-30-04, 11:45 AM I haven't seen the new Divine Champion, but the saves are not the reason I consider it a good class. It gets bonus feats and some nice special abilities.
KimHal
04-01-04, 01:13 AM Divine Might is still good, it's just no longer a no-brainer. (And any feat that is a no-brainer is generally a too-powerful one).

This is no longer an issue, since the DM still uses the old one (he doesn't seem to mind it being a no brainer...)

What makes it synergize well with Shou Disciple is that Shou gives you an extra attack with a GreatSword with the Martial Flurry ability ? which means an extra use of Divine Might in that round. It's worth it.

Actually, I don't think it synergizes THAT well. First off, Shou Disciple has a lot of prereqs my character doesn't meet : dodge or combat expertise (I don't remember which one, but my character has none...), Weapon focus : unarmed strike (which I didn't plan my character to have either), and the ability to pick up an eastern regional feat (I rather envisionned my character coming from the North...).
Moreover, since I only picked 2 levels of Monk, my flurry of blow still suffers from a -2 penalty.
To end with, in order to be able to use flurry of blow at all I can't wear any armor, and my weak WIS doesn't help my AC.

Haven't seen the new Divine Champion yet, but a couple levels of a poor reflex save isn't going to hurt you that badly (Shou gets good Fort/Ref, by the way).

Well, the new DCham is quite similar to the old one, except it has been nerfed : reflex save is no longer good, and Lay on Hands ability specifically can only heal worshippers of the same deity as the champion's. I think that's all.

I also noted two other interesting possibilities, by the way :
Divine Seeker (in PGtF, quite different from the one in FRCS) : easy prereqs for my character (except for the Stealthy feat), 2 good saves, and some nice abilities. Only drawback : BAB is cleric-like...
Cavelord (in Underdark) : fighter-like BAB, 2 good saves, and some nice abilities. Only drawback : Kn (local : Underdark) 8rk as a prereq, which would require my character to pick up one level or rogue before entering.

So here is the situation after tweaking a little bit the original build (including LordShade's interesting suggestion) :
STR 18, DEX 14, CON 10, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 18+2 (lvl4,lvl8)

CL 1 Ranger 1 Iron Will
CL 2 Monk 1 (improved grapple)
CL 3 Monk 2 (combat reflexes) Power Attack
CL 4 Barbarian 1
CL 5 Barbarian 2
CL 6 Ranger 2 (rapid shot) Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
CL 7 Holy Liberator 1
CL 8 Holy Liberator 2
CL 9 Holy Liberator 3 Divine Might

Equipment : gloves of DEX+2, mithril chain shirt+3, greatsword+2

Any idea for the Lvl1 bonus feat ?
Isn't the CON 10 going to hurt too much ?
Any no brainer equipment to consider ?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KimHal 03-27-04, 05:57 AM	I will join a party of five adventurers in the Realms, so I have to create a character (obviously...). The DM may be a bit weird sometimes (and so can I), so don't be too surprised with what follows ! The existing party : Moon Elf Ninja 5 / Wizard 5 Moon Elf Archer 8 (Probably Fighter 5 / OotBI 3 or similar) Moon Elf Bard 9 Human Cleric 1 / Bard 9 Human Rogue 9 How they managed to survive up to CL10 is beyond me, but anyway... The conditions : Use Core Books (3.5), splatbooks, Realms Books (FRCS, MoF, F&P, and probably a few others : I don't own any of them except FRCS, but the DM has a large collection), and maybe a few other "quite common" books (OA should be possible, for instance) Create a CL8 character Abilities : any abilities in the range 3 - 18 (before applying racial mods) whose sum is 84 (so this is better than point buy). Add bonus points at levels 4 and 8. Equipment : a +2 weapon, a +1 weapon, a +2 armor and a +1 shield as "gifts" (I suupose that might be tweaked a little bit, in case of a spellcaster or a monk), plus 27,000 GP. I'd like quite a versatile character with synergy around high Cha (this is just something I'd like to try for once). Other considerations that guided my choices are : - I'd like him a little bit sneaky, because most of the party is - I like high saves ! - If he can be quite different from what he seems at first sight, so much the better. - I'd like him to be already interesting at CL8, with some room for improvement at higher level... Here is what I came up with (Warning : I'm well aware of the alignment shift between CL2 and 3, but I think the DM might be OK with a good background, which I will easily provide) : Human STR 16 DEX 14 CON 12 INT 12 WIS 12 CHA 18 CL 1 Monk 1 (improved grapple) Iron Will CL 2 Monk 2 (combat reflexes) CL 3 Barbarian 1 Weapon Focus CL 4 Barbarian 2 CL 5 Ranger 1 CL 6 Ranger 2 (rapid shot) Power Attack CL 7 Holy Liberator 1 CL 8 Holy Liberator 2 Planned future : CL 9 Holy Liberator 3 Divine Might CL 10 Ranger 3 CL 11 Templar 1 CL 12 Divine Champion 1 I'm not decided on the fighting style from level 3, but I was thinking 2H (a greatsword or something similar...) At level 8, this gives Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, Divine Grace (+4 to all saves), plus some neat "surprising abilities" for a 2H-wielder (such as improved grapple for those who would like to use this tactic against me...). At level 9, turn undead for divinine might, and immunity to enchantment to boost. At level 11, mettle and weapon specialization are nice. For skills : Diplomacy 5rks at level 2 (to be improved later), plus some sneak abilities, to be improved with the ranger levels. Kn(rel) during HL levels (prereq for Templar and DChamp) The rest is free. Not sure on the Lvl1 human bonus feat (Impr Init ? or PA at lvl 1 and Cleave at lvl 6 ?). No precise idea for Lvl12 feat either. Any comment ? Any improvement ? Ideas for equipment ?
LordShade 03-27-04, 06:16 AM	I think it's a good build. At first I was going to suggest the classic Bbn1/Ftr2/Rog3 prefix for HL, but then I realized you needed endurance for templar so Rgr3 is in (2 feats from 3 levels, plus good skills and saves). I also realized that Monk is better than rogue for your purposes as 1) you don't care about SA 2) you like high saves and 3) your party already has 4 roguish types. Monk also gives you good feats. Did you take Bbn2 for uncanny dodge? Otherwise, a level of fighter or an additional PrC level might serve you better. Finishing with Divine Champion is a great idea, as it's a great class. You might also want to look into tacking Shou Disciple levels onto the end. I personally like SD for characters that dip into monk, as the class gives martial flurry at 5th, which is awesome for a divine might greatsword. You already have most of the prereqs from the monk levels, and moreover you get bonus feats and dodge bonuses to AC, as well as some extra unarmed damage in a pinch. And pretty good saves, high BAB, an interesting skill list, and d10 hp. Alternately, you could drop divine champion/shou disciple and instead focus on a barbarian PrC such as Runescarred, Frenzied or Champion of Gwynwoetiyawpoeiuraopreu. You seem to be more concerned with defense/survival (smart IMO) than offense, though, so maybe Frenzied is out and you'd like to go with a more controlled fighting style than the rage (however, remember the other 2 prcs give damage reduction). Your character looks to be shaping up nicely. Hope this helps! edit - oh, and take your barbarian levels first if possible if your DM will allow 2 alignment switches. If not, at least start with ranger (it gives more skill points than monk).
KimHal 03-27-04, 06:22 AM	Thanks for the quick reply You might also want to look into tacking Shou Disciple levels onto the end. I don't know SD. Where does it come from ?
Laelenie 03-27-04, 06:26 AM	Unapprochable East(FR) page around 32
LordShade 03-27-04, 06:27 AM	Unapproachable East, I think. Grab your DM's copy if you can, it is worth a look.
KimHal 03-27-04, 04:48 PM	OK, thanks. Any other comment ? What about equipment ? I was thinking of a mithral breastplate (if I can decide the DM on this one, since he seems to consider special material to be very rare...). Does it sound good ? Any "must have" for this kind of character ?
KimHal 03-30-04, 03:33 AM	which is awesome for a divine might greatsword Except that Complete Warrior updated Divine Might to last only for 1 round, turning a great feat into an (IMO) completely worthless one... Finishing with Divine Champion is a great idea, as it's a great class. Except that Player's Guide to Faerun updated the class, and now the Reflex Save is no longer good... making DC quite a suboptimal choice ! Is there anything to be saved ?
rilem 03-30-04, 11:12 AM	Originally posted by KimHal Except that Complete Warrior updated Divine Might to last only for 1 round, turning a great feat into an (IMO) completely worthless one... Divine Might is still good, it's just no longer a no-brainer. (And any feat that is a no-brainer is generally a too-powerful one). What makes it synergize well with Shou Disciple is that Shou gives you an extra attack with a GreatSword with the Martial Flurry ability — which means an extra use of Divine Might in that round. It's worth it. Haven't seen the new Divine Champion yet, but a couple levels of a poor reflex save isn't going to hurt you that badly (Shou gets good Fort/Ref, by the way).
LordShade 03-30-04, 11:45 AM	I haven't seen the new Divine Champion, but the saves are not the reason I consider it a good class. It gets bonus feats and some nice special abilities.
KimHal 04-01-04, 01:13 AM	Divine Might is still good, it's just no longer a no-brainer. (And any feat that is a no-brainer is generally a too-powerful one). This is no longer an issue, since the DM still uses the old one (he doesn't seem to mind it being a no brainer...) What makes it synergize well with Shou Disciple is that Shou gives you an extra attack with a GreatSword with the Martial Flurry ability ? which means an extra use of Divine Might in that round. It's worth it. Actually, I don't think it synergizes THAT well. First off, Shou Disciple has a lot of prereqs my character doesn't meet : dodge or combat expertise (I don't remember which one, but my character has none...), Weapon focus : unarmed strike (which I didn't plan my character to have either), and the ability to pick up an eastern regional feat (I rather envisionned my character coming from the North...). Moreover, since I only picked 2 levels of Monk, my flurry of blow still suffers from a -2 penalty. To end with, in order to be able to use flurry of blow at all I can't wear any armor, and my weak WIS doesn't help my AC. Haven't seen the new Divine Champion yet, but a couple levels of a poor reflex save isn't going to hurt you that badly (Shou gets good Fort/Ref, by the way). Well, the new DCham is quite similar to the old one, except it has been nerfed : reflex save is no longer good, and Lay on Hands ability specifically can only heal worshippers of the same deity as the champion's. I think that's all. I also noted two other interesting possibilities, by the way : Divine Seeker (in PGtF, quite different from the one in FRCS) : easy prereqs for my character (except for the Stealthy feat), 2 good saves, and some nice abilities. Only drawback : BAB is cleric-like... Cavelord (in Underdark) : fighter-like BAB, 2 good saves, and some nice abilities. Only drawback : Kn (local : Underdark) 8rk as a prereq, which would require my character to pick up one level or rogue before entering. So here is the situation after tweaking a little bit the original build (including LordShade's interesting suggestion) : STR 18, DEX 14, CON 10, INT 12, WIS 12, CHA 18+2 (lvl4,lvl8) CL 1 Ranger 1 Iron Will CL 2 Monk 1 (improved grapple) CL 3 Monk 2 (combat reflexes) Power Attack CL 4 Barbarian 1 CL 5 Barbarian 2 CL 6 Ranger 2 (rapid shot) Weapon Focus (Greatsword) CL 7 Holy Liberator 1 CL 8 Holy Liberator 2 CL 9 Holy Liberator 3 Divine Might Equipment : gloves of DEX+2, mithril chain shirt+3, greatsword+2 Any idea for the Lvl1 bonus feat ? Isn't the CON 10 going to hurt too much ? Any no brainer equipment to consider ?