A build for tanking. [Archive] - Wizards Community

A build for tanking. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dalston
09-06-05, 03:48 AM Alright, I'll be very up front with this: I need a tank, a real damage soaker ;)
I am starting at level 10 with standard starting gold. My DM has given me the option of being a Hobgoblin with no LA, might come in handy. It is 32 point buy, and all the complete books are allowed, in additon, he is allowing FR materials if I clear them with him. He seems very open to suggestions for slight modifications i.e. he let the monk switch out his bonus feats a la Oriental Adventures, and has allowed for some Dragon material, but I wouldn't count on it. His words on optimization:

I don't mind taking a character concept and mechanically optimizing it. What I do mind, however, is a character sheet that has four or five PrCs stacked just so to provide some sickly insane powerhouse. That's a no-no.

The main idea is that I need a high AC good hp, and decent saves. Some ideas for items would also be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Dalston
X-Codes
09-06-05, 04:19 AM Take an axe and chop that hobgoblin's head off with it. You need a DWARF!

Dwarf Paladin 4/Fighter 3/Dwarven Defender 10/Fighter 3
Ability Scores: Strength 14, Dexterity 13, Constition 16, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 10, Charisma 13 (points here)
Feats: Power Attack, Divine Shield, Divine Power, Combat Expertise, pre-requisites, fun stuff.

Between the Adamanite Full Plate and the Tower Shield, you should have an AC in the high 40's without trying too hard, as well as DR 9/-. Charisma is not very spectacular to start with, but eventually it will give out nice bonuses to just about everything you have. The only weak point in this build is the low reflex save, but that is more than compensated for by the very high HP you will end up with. If something really dangerous comes around (like a dragon) then your cleric will almost definately have some nice spells to keep you very much alive.
Lilt
09-06-05, 04:36 AM Agreed on the Dwarf front, but I might suggest a Deepwarden build if Races of Stone is allowed. It is a very nice tanking PrC as the second level ability giving you your Con bonus to AC rather than your Dex bonus. After that it goes downhill somewhat, but if you feel you can slip a 2-level dip past your GM, perhaps with an appropriate background, then it's well worth it.
X-Codes
09-06-05, 05:01 AM Agreed on the Dwarf front, but I might suggest a Deepwarden build if Races of Stone is allowed. It is a very nice tanking PrC as the second level ability giving you your Con bonus to AC rather than your Dex bonus. After that it goes downhill somewhat, but if you feel you can slip a 2-level dip past your GM, perhaps with an appropriate background, then it's well worth it.

That works, just drop 2 of the fighter levels for that suggestion. =P
slade_caizer
09-06-05, 05:37 AM A dozen PrCs? We don't need a dozen. We just need a Frenzied Berserker...hobgoblin...with no LA...that poor DMing bastard... :evillaugh
Funny Slaughter
09-06-05, 06:58 AM paladin5/fighter2/dwarven defender is my classic tank approach.

pro: good saves (at least with gold dwarf), high AC, high HP, full BAB
con: low mobility, comparable lower damage output

to optimize this build you should concentrate on the weak points, especially the low mobility. it itself there is not much to be changed, but via feats and reach-weapons you can increase your control over the battlefield.

take trip as an example. enemies rushing by your defensive stance happen to fall down exactly in your reach. great :)

tacitcal feats from CW and miniHB widen your selection.

gs
Funny
Dalston
09-06-05, 08:44 AM Thanks for all the ideas :)
One idea I had had was Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden 5/Fighter 10. This would get me the great Stone Warden and Stubborn Mind features, I think it might be possible to go Spiked-Chain tripper with this, but I'm not sure about the feats. The major disadvantage is that fighter levels 3-12 are not that great. Also, Dodge and karmic strike require 13 dex :/ pretty much making Stone Warden pointless. What do you think?

Update: DM has just given the go-ahead for almost any book, as long as it is not completely obscure(such as Kalamar or Ghostwalk, which I had never heard of until a few days ago ;) :P ). No psionics, though :(

Thanks,
Dalston
Aramas
09-06-05, 09:23 AM Ranger 3 / Fighter 2 / Deepwarden 5 / Dwarven Defender 10

1 Rgr 1 Toughness (See if your DM will allow Improved Toughness to qualify)
2 Rgr 2 Two-weapon Fighting
3 Ftr 1 Dodge
4 Ftr 2 Improved Shield Bash
5 Rgr 3 Endurance
6 DW 1 Combat Expertise
7 DW 2
8 DD 1
9 DD 2 Open Feat
10 DD 3
11 DD 4
12 DD 5 Open Feat
13 DD 6
14 DD 7
15 DD 8 Open Feat
16 DD 9
17 DD 10
18 DW 3 Open Feat
19 DW 4
20 DW 5

Str 14
Dex 13
Con 16 -> 20 (+2 Racial, +2 levels)
Int 13
Wis 14
Cha 8 -> 6 (-2 Racial)

Use a Heavy Shield and a Dwarven Waraxe. You can use TWF to shield bash.

I left the last feats open for you to fill in as you please (mainly I don't have time to pick out good ones)
Lilt
09-06-05, 09:27 AM Note that using the ranger's TWF limits you to using light or no armor, as they lose the benefits of the combat style feats when wearing medium or heavy armor.
ninjarabbit
09-06-05, 09:31 AM I like ranger3/fighter4/exoticweaponmaster3/dwarvendefender10 if you want to focus on a spiked chain or dwaven waraxe.

Isn't the con AC bonus from deepwarden limited by your armor like dex is since it's swaped?
Dalston
09-06-05, 09:39 AM The Con replacing Dex has been discussed pretty heavily here: http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=290184&origin=
My take is that is that it would not be limited by your armor, and I'm pretty sure I could convinvce my DM.
By the way, the other party members are: A monk, a cleric/prestige paladin, a wizard/initiate of the sevenfold veil, an archery/stealth ranger, and a rogue/swashbuckler/invisible blade.
kilroo
09-06-05, 09:39 AM If you can use "just about any book," try the Gallowglass PrC from SSS's Advanced Player's Handbook.

I'm kidding.
Lilt
09-06-05, 09:40 AM Isn't the con AC bonus from deepwarden limited by your armor like dex is since it's swaped?That's arguable either way.
pfooti
09-06-05, 03:43 PM As far as the dwarven defender goes, I'm actually more fond of a two-level dip in barbarian. You can go wolf barbarian (from UA) to get improved trip at level 2. Take extra rage if you want to do it a few times a day.

Another option, if you can do psionics, is a level or two of psion, followed by the Slayer PrC, which works nicely with Deepwarden, since ranger covers both prereqs. Slayer gives you a good manifester progression and full BAB. Use the psionic abilities you learn to be buff-ish powers, but there are other good ones on the psion list that make you pretty useful in places where you need more flexibility. That also opens up some nice feat paths, including the always-helpful greater psionic weapon as well as the ability to power a deep crystal weapon.
cvazi
09-06-05, 03:47 PM As much as I love psionics, and fighters- the strongest tank is the druid. Try Druid-nature's warrior with the druidic avenger variant (trade you animal companion for rage and fast movement). Very little can stand in your way.
Leugren
09-06-05, 04:38 PM Here is the tank build I'm currently using, and its proven quite effective. I pulled it together using bits of information that I gathered from several postings by Snow Savant. As a testimonial to its effectiveness, I'll mention that at second level, I single-handedly mopped the floor with two Minotaurs while the rest of the party struggled feebly to overcome a bunch of orcs!

Goliath (RoS) with Mineral Warrior Template (UD) - +2 LA

1. Bar01 (Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Jovar, Power Attack)
2. Bar02 (Improved Trip - from Wolf Totem Barabarian)
3. Ftr01 (Improved Bull Rush, Cleave)
4. Ftr02 (Improved Sunder)
5. Ftr03
6. Ftr04 (Combat Brute, Shock Trooper)
7. ExW01 (Trip Attack w/ Jovar - from Exotic Weapon Master)
8. Ftr05
9. Ftr06 (Combat Reflexes, Extra Rage)
10. Ftr07
11. Ftr08 (Knockback)
12. Ftr09 (Rampaging Bullrush)
13. Ftr10 (Dodge)
14. Ftr11
15. Ftr12 (Combat Expertise, Karmic Strike)
16. Ftr13
17. Ftr14 (Great Cleave)
18. Ftr15 (Power Charge)
19. Ftr16 (Leap Attack)
20. Ftr17

NOTES:

- Uses Wolf Totem Barbarian variant from UA to get Improved Trip at 2nd level.
- Uses Goliath Barbarian Racial Substitition Level from RoS to get Mountain Rage at 1st level.
- Mineral Warrior grants Damage Reduction 8/adamantine, insane Str and Con bonuses, and is only LA +1!
- A Jovar is an exotic weapon from the Planar Handbook that combines the damage of a greatsword with a crit. range of 18-20 (deadly when combined with the "keen" magic weapon enhancement).
- Extra feat at 1st level is courtesy of the "Wild" flaw from Dragon Magazine #327, which basically means I get panicked when I'm pinned or entangled (with a 24 Strength at 1st level-- 30 when raging, this almost never happens!).

Hope This Helps!
pfooti
09-06-05, 07:55 PM Another template that, in my opinion, is really worth it with a 32 point build is feral from savage species. A mineralized, feral goliath can start at a 28 strength. Most importantly, the feral template gives fast healing 2, all just for a +1 la.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dalston 09-06-05, 03:48 AM	Alright, I'll be very up front with this: I need a tank, a real damage soaker ;) I am starting at level 10 with standard starting gold. My DM has given me the option of being a Hobgoblin with no LA, might come in handy. It is 32 point buy, and all the complete books are allowed, in additon, he is allowing FR materials if I clear them with him. He seems very open to suggestions for slight modifications i.e. he let the monk switch out his bonus feats a la Oriental Adventures, and has allowed for some Dragon material, but I wouldn't count on it. His words on optimization: I don't mind taking a character concept and mechanically optimizing it. What I do mind, however, is a character sheet that has four or five PrCs stacked just so to provide some sickly insane powerhouse. That's a no-no. The main idea is that I need a high AC good hp, and decent saves. Some ideas for items would also be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Dalston
X-Codes 09-06-05, 04:19 AM	Take an axe and chop that hobgoblin's head off with it. You need a DWARF! Dwarf Paladin 4/Fighter 3/Dwarven Defender 10/Fighter 3 Ability Scores: Strength 14, Dexterity 13, Constition 16, Intelligence 13, Wisdom 10, Charisma 13 (points here) Feats: Power Attack, Divine Shield, Divine Power, Combat Expertise, pre-requisites, fun stuff. Between the Adamanite Full Plate and the Tower Shield, you should have an AC in the high 40's without trying too hard, as well as DR 9/-. Charisma is not very spectacular to start with, but eventually it will give out nice bonuses to just about everything you have. The only weak point in this build is the low reflex save, but that is more than compensated for by the very high HP you will end up with. If something really dangerous comes around (like a dragon) then your cleric will almost definately have some nice spells to keep you very much alive.
Lilt 09-06-05, 04:36 AM	Agreed on the Dwarf front, but I might suggest a Deepwarden build if Races of Stone is allowed. It is a very nice tanking PrC as the second level ability giving you your Con bonus to AC rather than your Dex bonus. After that it goes downhill somewhat, but if you feel you can slip a 2-level dip past your GM, perhaps with an appropriate background, then it's well worth it.
X-Codes 09-06-05, 05:01 AM	Agreed on the Dwarf front, but I might suggest a Deepwarden build if Races of Stone is allowed. It is a very nice tanking PrC as the second level ability giving you your Con bonus to AC rather than your Dex bonus. After that it goes downhill somewhat, but if you feel you can slip a 2-level dip past your GM, perhaps with an appropriate background, then it's well worth it. That works, just drop 2 of the fighter levels for that suggestion. =P
slade_caizer 09-06-05, 05:37 AM	A dozen PrCs? We don't need a dozen. We just need a Frenzied Berserker...hobgoblin...with no LA...that poor DMing bastard... :evillaugh
Funny Slaughter 09-06-05, 06:58 AM	paladin5/fighter2/dwarven defender is my classic tank approach. pro: good saves (at least with gold dwarf), high AC, high HP, full BAB con: low mobility, comparable lower damage output to optimize this build you should concentrate on the weak points, especially the low mobility. it itself there is not much to be changed, but via feats and reach-weapons you can increase your control over the battlefield. take trip as an example. enemies rushing by your defensive stance happen to fall down exactly in your reach. great :) tacitcal feats from CW and miniHB widen your selection. gs Funny
Dalston 09-06-05, 08:44 AM	Thanks for all the ideas :) One idea I had had was Ranger 3/Fighter 2/Deepwarden 5/Fighter 10. This would get me the great Stone Warden and Stubborn Mind features, I think it might be possible to go Spiked-Chain tripper with this, but I'm not sure about the feats. The major disadvantage is that fighter levels 3-12 are not that great. Also, Dodge and karmic strike require 13 dex :/ pretty much making Stone Warden pointless. What do you think? Update: DM has just given the go-ahead for almost any book, as long as it is not completely obscure(such as Kalamar or Ghostwalk, which I had never heard of until a few days ago ;) :P ). No psionics, though :( Thanks, Dalston
Aramas 09-06-05, 09:23 AM	Ranger 3 / Fighter 2 / Deepwarden 5 / Dwarven Defender 10 1 Rgr 1 Toughness (See if your DM will allow Improved Toughness to qualify) 2 Rgr 2 Two-weapon Fighting 3 Ftr 1 Dodge 4 Ftr 2 Improved Shield Bash 5 Rgr 3 Endurance 6 DW 1 Combat Expertise 7 DW 2 8 DD 1 9 DD 2 Open Feat 10 DD 3 11 DD 4 12 DD 5 Open Feat 13 DD 6 14 DD 7 15 DD 8 Open Feat 16 DD 9 17 DD 10 18 DW 3 Open Feat 19 DW 4 20 DW 5 Str 14 Dex 13 Con 16 -> 20 (+2 Racial, +2 levels) Int 13 Wis 14 Cha 8 -> 6 (-2 Racial) Use a Heavy Shield and a Dwarven Waraxe. You can use TWF to shield bash. I left the last feats open for you to fill in as you please (mainly I don't have time to pick out good ones)
Lilt 09-06-05, 09:27 AM	Note that using the ranger's TWF limits you to using light or no armor, as they lose the benefits of the combat style feats when wearing medium or heavy armor.
ninjarabbit 09-06-05, 09:31 AM	I like ranger3/fighter4/exoticweaponmaster3/dwarvendefender10 if you want to focus on a spiked chain or dwaven waraxe. Isn't the con AC bonus from deepwarden limited by your armor like dex is since it's swaped?
Dalston 09-06-05, 09:39 AM	The Con replacing Dex has been discussed pretty heavily here: http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=290184&origin= My take is that is that it would not be limited by your armor, and I'm pretty sure I could convinvce my DM. By the way, the other party members are: A monk, a cleric/prestige paladin, a wizard/initiate of the sevenfold veil, an archery/stealth ranger, and a rogue/swashbuckler/invisible blade.
kilroo 09-06-05, 09:39 AM	If you can use "just about any book," try the Gallowglass PrC from SSS's Advanced Player's Handbook. I'm kidding.
Lilt 09-06-05, 09:40 AM	Isn't the con AC bonus from deepwarden limited by your armor like dex is since it's swaped?That's arguable either way.
pfooti 09-06-05, 03:43 PM	As far as the dwarven defender goes, I'm actually more fond of a two-level dip in barbarian. You can go wolf barbarian (from UA) to get improved trip at level 2. Take extra rage if you want to do it a few times a day. Another option, if you can do psionics, is a level or two of psion, followed by the Slayer PrC, which works nicely with Deepwarden, since ranger covers both prereqs. Slayer gives you a good manifester progression and full BAB. Use the psionic abilities you learn to be buff-ish powers, but there are other good ones on the psion list that make you pretty useful in places where you need more flexibility. That also opens up some nice feat paths, including the always-helpful greater psionic weapon as well as the ability to power a deep crystal weapon.
cvazi 09-06-05, 03:47 PM	As much as I love psionics, and fighters- the strongest tank is the druid. Try Druid-nature's warrior with the druidic avenger variant (trade you animal companion for rage and fast movement). Very little can stand in your way.
Leugren 09-06-05, 04:38 PM	Here is the tank build I'm currently using, and its proven quite effective. I pulled it together using bits of information that I gathered from several postings by Snow Savant. As a testimonial to its effectiveness, I'll mention that at second level, I single-handedly mopped the floor with two Minotaurs while the rest of the party struggled feebly to overcome a bunch of orcs! Goliath (RoS) with Mineral Warrior Template (UD) - +2 LA 1. Bar01 (Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Jovar, Power Attack) 2. Bar02 (Improved Trip - from Wolf Totem Barabarian) 3. Ftr01 (Improved Bull Rush, Cleave) 4. Ftr02 (Improved Sunder) 5. Ftr03 6. Ftr04 (Combat Brute, Shock Trooper) 7. ExW01 (Trip Attack w/ Jovar - from Exotic Weapon Master) 8. Ftr05 9. Ftr06 (Combat Reflexes, Extra Rage) 10. Ftr07 11. Ftr08 (Knockback) 12. Ftr09 (Rampaging Bullrush) 13. Ftr10 (Dodge) 14. Ftr11 15. Ftr12 (Combat Expertise, Karmic Strike) 16. Ftr13 17. Ftr14 (Great Cleave) 18. Ftr15 (Power Charge) 19. Ftr16 (Leap Attack) 20. Ftr17 NOTES: - Uses Wolf Totem Barbarian variant from UA to get Improved Trip at 2nd level. - Uses Goliath Barbarian Racial Substitition Level from RoS to get Mountain Rage at 1st level. - Mineral Warrior grants Damage Reduction 8/adamantine, insane Str and Con bonuses, and is only LA +1! - A Jovar is an exotic weapon from the Planar Handbook that combines the damage of a greatsword with a crit. range of 18-20 (deadly when combined with the "keen" magic weapon enhancement). - Extra feat at 1st level is courtesy of the "Wild" flaw from Dragon Magazine #327, which basically means I get panicked when I'm pinned or entangled (with a 24 Strength at 1st level-- 30 when raging, this almost never happens!). Hope This Helps!
pfooti 09-06-05, 07:55 PM	Another template that, in my opinion, is really worth it with a 32 point build is feral from savage species. A mineralized, feral goliath can start at a 28 strength. Most importantly, the feral template gives fast healing 2, all just for a +1 la.