A Cavalier Spell Sword [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Cavalier Spell Sword [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Devant
07-06-04, 02:20 PM Ftr1/Wiz5/Sps4/Cavalier10

Yeah, so Unstopable Charge + Channel Spells?

1/day:
Damage = 5d8(Lance)+18d6(Empowered Scorching Ray) + 34(Power Attack) + 5d4 (Arcane Strike) + 1.5*Str

Attack Bonus = 17(BAB) + 20(True Strike) - 17(Power Attack) + 5(Arcane Strike) + 3(Mounted Weapon Bonus (Lance)) + 1(Weapon Focus (Lance)) + Str = 29 + Str

With a Str of 18
That would be an average damage of:

20+54+34+10+6=144

Without a magic weapon or rods, or any other magic item really.
:rolleyes:

Edit: I'm going to be playing this so any advice on how to push it further would be welcome.
Edit2: Fixed Attack Bonus
Blade2718
07-06-04, 02:46 PM Spirited Charge doubles any damage on a charge.
michael_noah
07-06-04, 02:47 PM Your PA damage, and the Scorching Ray damage both get multiplied by unstoppable charge.

(Scorching Ray requires an attack roll, so it can critical. I think that implies that it gets multiplied normally here, too.)
Devant
07-06-04, 02:54 PM Originally posted by michael_noah
Your PA damage, and the Scorching Ray damage both get multiplied by unstoppable charge.

(Scorching Ray requires an attack roll, so it can critical. I think that implies that it gets multiplied normally here, too.)

I was under the impression that it wouldn't similarly to a Flaming weapon. Can you give me some rule locations to back this up? I'd need to prove it to my DM
SaintX
07-06-04, 03:07 PM [1d8+1.5*str+34(power attack)]*5+4d4(arcane strike)+18d6 (empowered scorching ray)
with str of 18 without buffing it
average damage: (4.5+6+34)*5+10+63=295.5
this can be done 3 times per day.
with only slightly less damage (smaller arcane strikes and scorching rays) 2 more times per day.

note: i dont believe that scorching ray damage gets multiplied.
otherwise vampiric touch would work wonders on an unstoppable charge.

flaming weapon do additional DICE of damage. extra damage DICE never get multiplied. damage bonuses, such as from high strength, weapon spec, or magical enhancements do.

from the srd: "Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied."

attack bonus: 17 bab +20 true strike -17 power attack +3 mounted weapon bonus +1 weapon focus + str= 24+str
michael_noah
07-06-04, 03:47 PM Look up critical hits in the SRD, and you'll see that any spell that requires an attack roll can critical (note that criticals only multiply "damage", so no critical enervation).

We don't have any rules, as far as I know, on what "multiplies" or not, other than that "extra damage dice" explicitly do not. Since scorching ray can multiply at least some of the time (when you critical), I think it's safe to assume that it would multiply in unstoppable charge as well.
SaintX
07-06-04, 04:06 PM [i]From the SRD
SPIRITED CHARGE [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack.
Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon(or triple damage with a lance)
apparently you dont multiply the damage from scorching ray, unless it is considered a melee weapon... wait, rays ARE considered weapons. but not melee weapons... but teh channel spell ability makes the spell function as if it had hit the target.
but a spirited charge (or deadly, or unstoppable) is not a crit.

now i've gone and confused myself.
michael_noah
07-06-04, 04:13 PM hmm... you're right. seems like maybe it shouldn't be multiplied, if only the "melee weapon" damage is being multiplied.

what of power attack, specialization, etc. then? they aren't weapons...
Blade2718
07-06-04, 04:35 PM But you hit with a melee weapon. I think, therefore, that a channeled scorching ray would also be multiplied.

Heck, be a SpellLance, and get triple damage.
charlesatan
07-06-04, 10:38 PM First off, the latest channel spell ability is quite vague in its description, so we don't really know if the scorching ray, for example, still needs an attack roll or directly affects the hit character. Of course if it's the latter, then since there was no "attack roll" (it's only a hit or miss proposition; either you hit the target to discharge the spell, or you don't hit), hence no chance of making a critical hit. I'd also point out that the original Scorching Ray comes out in three 4d6 rays, so if you wanted to make a 24d6 criitcal hit, all three rays should have made a critical.

Anyway, as for the Spriited Charge, it seems to me that the only thing it affects are those involved in the original attack, which involves the base damage, Str bonus, any enhancement bonuses to the weapon, and Power Attack (and while you might say these all come from different sources, they're still channeled through the attack made by the weapon; Arcane Strike doesn't get multiplied because it's dice damage as stated by someone earlier. And for all we know, the Channel Ability happens after the character is hit with the attack, not during the attack (which Spirited Charge applies its double damage to).
Devant
07-08-04, 03:35 AM First I'd like to say that I am not talking about a critical hit. I am talking about the Cavilier's Unstopable Charge.

Originally posted by charlesatan
First off, the latest channel spell ability is quite vague in its description, so we don't really know if the scorching ray, for example, still needs an attack roll or directly affects the hit character. Of course if it's the latter, then since there was no "attack roll" (it's only a hit or miss proposition; either you hit the target to discharge the spell, or you don't hit), hence no chance of making a critical hit. I'd also point out that the original Scorching Ray comes out in three 4d6 rays, so if you wanted to make a 24d6 criitcal hit, all three rays should have made a critical.

There is no extra roll to hit.

The Spell affects the next target that the Spellsword succsessfully attacks with his weapon.
Even if the spell normally affects and area or is a ray, it affects only the target.

There doesn't seem to be anything ambiguous about this statement. Even if it is a ray it affects the target. So wether the spell calls for 1 ray or 52 rays they still all affect if they are part of the channeled spell.

Originally posted by charlesatan
Anyway, as for the Spriited Charge, it seems to me that the only thing it affects are those involved in the original attack, which involves the base damage, Str bonus, any enhancement bonuses to the weapon, and Power Attack (and while you might say these all come from different sources, they're still channeled through the attack made by the weapon; Arcane Strike doesn't get multiplied because it's dice damage as stated by someone earlier. And for all we know, the Channel Ability happens after the character is hit with the attack, not during the attack (which Spirited Charge applies its double damage to).

If he hits, he deals triple(double, quadruple, or quintuple) damage with a melee weapon. Not if he is using a melee weapon, or a melee weapon plus his strength or anything else. A melee weapon. Unless there is some errata I don't know about.
charlesatan
07-08-04, 07:13 AM Originally posted by Devant
The Spell affects the next target that the Spellsword succsessfully attacks with his weapon.
Even if the spell normally affects and area or is a ray, it affects only the target.

There doesn't seem to be anything ambiguous about this statement. Even if it is a ray it affects the target. So wether the spell calls for 1 ray or 52 rays they still all affect if they are part of the channeled spell.

If he hits, he deals triple(double, quadruple, or quintuple) damage with a melee weapon. Not if he is using a melee weapon, or a melee weapon plus his strength or anything else. A melee weapon. Unless there is some errata I don't know about.

First off, the rules for doubling/tripling/quadrupling damage from critical hits follows the same rules for other multipliers (i.e. Cavalier's Unstoppable Charge).

If it affects the target, the damage from Scorching Ray will not be multiplied. It's a separate effect; as if the opponent was hit by a magic missile that had the fire decriptor. Hitting with the melee weapon meant that the creature was a valid target.

As for the last part, yes, if he hits with a melee weapon. However, the damage dealt by a melee weapon takes into consideration several factors, such as Strength modifier, weapon enhancemnet bonuses, feats like Weapon Spec., etc., so they all get multiplied (but not scorching ray).
Devant
07-09-04, 01:30 AM Yeah so upon further working on this build I discovered that I would never be able to cast Scorching ray for 18d6. With Empowered Chill Touch I could deal 15d6 and 15 Str damage to anything but undead with a fort save dealing no Str damage on success. So here is what my build looks like so far:

Ftr2/Wiz4 Silvanesti Elf
15, 14, 12, 22, 12, 10
##ECL# BAB Saves CL SL Bonus Goodies
01Ftr1 1 2/0/0 0 - Spell Casting Prodigy Mounted Combat
02Ftr2 2 3/0/0 0 - Ride-by Attack
03Wiz1 2 3/0/2 1 0,1 Spirited Charge Familiar (None), Scribe Scroll
04Wiz2 3 3/0/3 2 +1 Int
05Wiz3 3 4/1/3 3 2
06Wiz4 4 4/1/4 6 Practiced Spell Caster
07Sps1 5 6/1/6 7 3 Ignore Spell Failure 10%
08Sps2 6 7/1/7 8 +1 Str Weapon Focus (Lance)
09Sps3 7 7/2/7 9 Improved Familiar (Hippogriff) Ignore Spell Failure 15%
10Sps4 8 8/2/8 10 Channel Spell 3/day
11Cav1 9 10/2/10 Special mount, mounted weapon bonus (lance) +1, Ride bonus +2, courtly knowledge
12Cav2 10 11/2/11 Power Attack, +1 Str Deadly charge 1/day, mounted weapon bonus (sword) +1
13Cav3 11 11/3/11 Burst of Speed
14Cav4 12 12/3/12 Deadly Charge 2/day, Ride bonus +4
15Cav5 13 12/3/12 Arcane Strike Mounted weapon bonus (lance) +2
16Cav6 14 13/4/13 +1 Str Deadly charge 3/day, full mounted attack, mounted weapon bonus (sword) +2
17Cav7 15 13/4/13 Ride bonus +6
18Cav8 16 14/4/14 Bonus Feat??? Deadly Charge 4/day
19Cav9 17 14/5/14 Mounted weapon bonus (lance) +3, Ride bonus +8
20Cav10 18 15/5/15 +1 Str Unstoppable charge 5/day, mounted weapon bonus (sword) +3

Here is the new damage calculations based on the information I've gained. I'm buying a Lesser Rod of Empower and a Lesser Rod of Maximize as soon as I can and a Belt of Giant Str +6.

Avg. Damage = (1d8+36+10)*5+90+3d4 = 350 Damage +15 Str Damage 3/day

If you give your hippogriff Flyby attack and Power Dive instead of dodge and Wing Over it could add 1d8+6 a fly/ride-by Slam Attack and knock the target prone if it is Med. or smaller, or Deal 1d4+4 extra damage on Large or bigger creature.

Edit: Removed PHP coding
Edit2: Removed snappy comement about such PHP coding

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Devant 07-06-04, 02:20 PM	Ftr1/Wiz5/Sps4/Cavalier10 Yeah, so Unstopable Charge + Channel Spells? 1/day: Damage = 5d8(Lance)+18d6(Empowered Scorching Ray) + 34(Power Attack) + 5d4 (Arcane Strike) + 1.5*Str Attack Bonus = 17(BAB) + 20(True Strike) - 17(Power Attack) + 5(Arcane Strike) + 3(Mounted Weapon Bonus (Lance)) + 1(Weapon Focus (Lance)) + Str = 29 + Str With a Str of 18 That would be an average damage of: 20+54+34+10+6=144 Without a magic weapon or rods, or any other magic item really. :rolleyes: Edit: I'm going to be playing this so any advice on how to push it further would be welcome. Edit2: Fixed Attack Bonus
Blade2718 07-06-04, 02:46 PM	Spirited Charge doubles any damage on a charge.
michael_noah 07-06-04, 02:47 PM	Your PA damage, and the Scorching Ray damage both get multiplied by unstoppable charge. (Scorching Ray requires an attack roll, so it can critical. I think that implies that it gets multiplied normally here, too.)
Devant 07-06-04, 02:54 PM	Originally posted by michael_noah Your PA damage, and the Scorching Ray damage both get multiplied by unstoppable charge. (Scorching Ray requires an attack roll, so it can critical. I think that implies that it gets multiplied normally here, too.) I was under the impression that it wouldn't similarly to a Flaming weapon. Can you give me some rule locations to back this up? I'd need to prove it to my DM
SaintX 07-06-04, 03:07 PM	[1d8+1.5str+34(power attack)]5+4d4(arcane strike)+18d6 (empowered scorching ray) with str of 18 without buffing it average damage: (4.5+6+34)*5+10+63=295.5 this can be done 3 times per day. with only slightly less damage (smaller arcane strikes and scorching rays) 2 more times per day. note: i dont believe that scorching ray damage gets multiplied. otherwise vampiric touch would work wonders on an unstoppable charge. flaming weapon do additional DICE of damage. extra damage DICE never get multiplied. damage bonuses, such as from high strength, weapon spec, or magical enhancements do. from the srd: "Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied." attack bonus: 17 bab +20 true strike -17 power attack +3 mounted weapon bonus +1 weapon focus + str= 24+str
michael_noah 07-06-04, 03:47 PM	Look up critical hits in the SRD, and you'll see that any spell that requires an attack roll can critical (note that criticals only multiply "damage", so no critical enervation). We don't have any rules, as far as I know, on what "multiplies" or not, other than that "extra damage dice" explicitly do not. Since scorching ray can multiply at least some of the time (when you critical), I think it's safe to assume that it would multiply in unstoppable charge as well.
SaintX 07-06-04, 04:06 PM	[i]From the SRD SPIRITED CHARGE [GENERAL] Prerequisites: Ride 1 rank, Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack. Benefit: When mounted and using the charge action, you deal double damage with a melee weapon(or triple damage with a lance) apparently you dont multiply the damage from scorching ray, unless it is considered a melee weapon... wait, rays ARE considered weapons. but not melee weapons... but teh channel spell ability makes the spell function as if it had hit the target. but a spirited charge (or deadly, or unstoppable) is not a crit. now i've gone and confused myself.
michael_noah 07-06-04, 04:13 PM	hmm... you're right. seems like maybe it shouldn't be multiplied, if only the "melee weapon" damage is being multiplied. what of power attack, specialization, etc. then? they aren't weapons...
Blade2718 07-06-04, 04:35 PM	But you hit with a melee weapon. I think, therefore, that a channeled scorching ray would also be multiplied. Heck, be a SpellLance, and get triple damage.
charlesatan 07-06-04, 10:38 PM	First off, the latest channel spell ability is quite vague in its description, so we don't really know if the scorching ray, for example, still needs an attack roll or directly affects the hit character. Of course if it's the latter, then since there was no "attack roll" (it's only a hit or miss proposition; either you hit the target to discharge the spell, or you don't hit), hence no chance of making a critical hit. I'd also point out that the original Scorching Ray comes out in three 4d6 rays, so if you wanted to make a 24d6 criitcal hit, all three rays should have made a critical. Anyway, as for the Spriited Charge, it seems to me that the only thing it affects are those involved in the original attack, which involves the base damage, Str bonus, any enhancement bonuses to the weapon, and Power Attack (and while you might say these all come from different sources, they're still channeled through the attack made by the weapon; Arcane Strike doesn't get multiplied because it's dice damage as stated by someone earlier. And for all we know, the Channel Ability happens after the character is hit with the attack, not during the attack (which Spirited Charge applies its double damage to).
Devant 07-08-04, 03:35 AM	First I'd like to say that I am not talking about a critical hit. I am talking about the Cavilier's Unstopable Charge. Originally posted by charlesatan First off, the latest channel spell ability is quite vague in its description, so we don't really know if the scorching ray, for example, still needs an attack roll or directly affects the hit character. Of course if it's the latter, then since there was no "attack roll" (it's only a hit or miss proposition; either you hit the target to discharge the spell, or you don't hit), hence no chance of making a critical hit. I'd also point out that the original Scorching Ray comes out in three 4d6 rays, so if you wanted to make a 24d6 criitcal hit, all three rays should have made a critical. There is no extra roll to hit. The Spell affects the next target that the Spellsword succsessfully attacks with his weapon. Even if the spell normally affects and area or is a ray, it affects only the target. There doesn't seem to be anything ambiguous about this statement. Even if it is a ray it affects the target. So wether the spell calls for 1 ray or 52 rays they still all affect if they are part of the channeled spell. Originally posted by charlesatan Anyway, as for the Spriited Charge, it seems to me that the only thing it affects are those involved in the original attack, which involves the base damage, Str bonus, any enhancement bonuses to the weapon, and Power Attack (and while you might say these all come from different sources, they're still channeled through the attack made by the weapon; Arcane Strike doesn't get multiplied because it's dice damage as stated by someone earlier. And for all we know, the Channel Ability happens after the character is hit with the attack, not during the attack (which Spirited Charge applies its double damage to). If he hits, he deals triple(double, quadruple, or quintuple) damage with a melee weapon. Not if he is using a melee weapon, or a melee weapon plus his strength or anything else. A melee weapon. Unless there is some errata I don't know about.
charlesatan 07-08-04, 07:13 AM	Originally posted by Devant The Spell affects the next target that the Spellsword succsessfully attacks with his weapon. Even if the spell normally affects and area or is a ray, it affects only the target. There doesn't seem to be anything ambiguous about this statement. Even if it is a ray it affects the target. So wether the spell calls for 1 ray or 52 rays they still all affect if they are part of the channeled spell. If he hits, he deals triple(double, quadruple, or quintuple) damage with a melee weapon. Not if he is using a melee weapon, or a melee weapon plus his strength or anything else. A melee weapon. Unless there is some errata I don't know about. First off, the rules for doubling/tripling/quadrupling damage from critical hits follows the same rules for other multipliers (i.e. Cavalier's Unstoppable Charge). If it affects the target, the damage from Scorching Ray will not be multiplied. It's a separate effect; as if the opponent was hit by a magic missile that had the fire decriptor. Hitting with the melee weapon meant that the creature was a valid target. As for the last part, yes, if he hits with a melee weapon. However, the damage dealt by a melee weapon takes into consideration several factors, such as Strength modifier, weapon enhancemnet bonuses, feats like Weapon Spec., etc., so they all get multiplied (but not scorching ray).
Devant 07-09-04, 01:30 AM	Yeah so upon further working on this build I discovered that I would never be able to cast Scorching ray for 18d6. With Empowered Chill Touch I could deal 15d6 and 15 Str damage to anything but undead with a fort save dealing no Str damage on success. So here is what my build looks like so far: Ftr2/Wiz4 Silvanesti Elf 15, 14, 12, 22, 12, 10 ##ECL# BAB Saves CL SL Bonus Goodies 01Ftr1 1 2/0/0 0 - Spell Casting Prodigy Mounted Combat 02Ftr2 2 3/0/0 0 - Ride-by Attack 03Wiz1 2 3/0/2 1 0,1 Spirited Charge Familiar (None), Scribe Scroll 04Wiz2 3 3/0/3 2 +1 Int 05Wiz3 3 4/1/3 3 2 06Wiz4 4 4/1/4 6 Practiced Spell Caster 07Sps1 5 6/1/6 7 3 Ignore Spell Failure 10% 08Sps2 6 7/1/7 8 +1 Str Weapon Focus (Lance) 09Sps3 7 7/2/7 9 Improved Familiar (Hippogriff) Ignore Spell Failure 15% 10Sps4 8 8/2/8 10 Channel Spell 3/day 11Cav1 9 10/2/10 Special mount, mounted weapon bonus (lance) +1, Ride bonus +2, courtly knowledge 12Cav2 10 11/2/11 Power Attack, +1 Str Deadly charge 1/day, mounted weapon bonus (sword) +1 13Cav3 11 11/3/11 Burst of Speed 14Cav4 12 12/3/12 Deadly Charge 2/day, Ride bonus +4 15Cav5 13 12/3/12 Arcane Strike Mounted weapon bonus (lance) +2 16Cav6 14 13/4/13 +1 Str Deadly charge 3/day, full mounted attack, mounted weapon bonus (sword) +2 17Cav7 15 13/4/13 Ride bonus +6 18Cav8 16 14/4/14 Bonus Feat??? Deadly Charge 4/day 19Cav9 17 14/5/14 Mounted weapon bonus (lance) +3, Ride bonus +8 20Cav10 18 15/5/15 +1 Str Unstoppable charge 5/day, mounted weapon bonus (sword) +3 Here is the new damage calculations based on the information I've gained. I'm buying a Lesser Rod of Empower and a Lesser Rod of Maximize as soon as I can and a Belt of Giant Str +6. Avg. Damage = (1d8+36+10)*5+90+3d4 = 350 Damage +15 Str Damage 3/day If you give your hippogriff Flyby attack and Power Dive instead of dodge and Wing Over it could add 1d8+6 a fly/ride-by Slam Attack and knock the target prone if it is Med. or smaller, or Deal 1d4+4 extra damage on Large or bigger creature. Edit: Removed PHP coding Edit2: Removed snappy comement about such PHP coding