Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Caros 12-28-05, 05:55 PM	[Disclaimer] : Before I begin to write anything about the challenge itself I just want to make certain everyone is on the same page. Though this challenge is intended to be competitive I want it to keep a happy undertone. It is a game after all, we just want to take the name of strongest twink from pun pun and place it on the shoulders of another. With that out of the way, We are formally calling out Khan the Destroyer in this posting. I say we of course because the build that will follow is actually the creation of four gamers in the city of Saskatoon, our brainchild to prove that nothing is unbeatable. Which isn't of course to say that it was all our idea, we will give credit where credit is due when the build is posted. In any case. The rules for this challenge are going to be pretty simple and will not be developed solely by us, but by a fair compromise between Khan and us. (I hope.) These rules are really a formality, We're basically just asking for them so we have some basic assumptions on Pun-Pun that we can use to actually dictate how our charachter finds and kills him. (Again, hopefully.) So basically, I am going to post our 'rules' as we figure for the challenge, and then ask a bunch of questions. Following that Khan will hopefully respond with the answers so we can get around to the business of killing pun pun. However, if we fail in killing Pun-Pun, at least the next charachter who comes after him knows what hoops he has to jump through. Shall we? Rule 1 : Both sides shall only use material that has been printed in official Wotc material. We are well aware that Pun-Pun has access to every feat, spell, salient divine ability etc in existance. That said, we would like Pun-Pun to restrict himself to abilities that have been printed. Yes Pun-Pun can create artifacts and SDA's, but for the purposes of this challenge we would ask him to refrain as there are no clear guildines for what those abilities can and cannot do. Otherwise there is absolutely no point to trying as Pun-Pun creates the following. I win. Pun-pun wins. At anything. Benefit : Any effect that could possibly harm or effect Pun-pun in a way he doesn't like fails to do so. Furthermore every other being in existance is rendered physically incapable of concieving to harm Pun-Pun. Normal : Usually the game actually gets to be played ^_^; See our point? Edit: The wording on this was perhaps a touch unclear. Pun Pun can use any ability that exists in published material, We would just prefer that he didn't start making up new ones or the challenge is moot from the get go. Rule 2: Please pick a number for Pun-Pun's Nigh Infinites. The number doesn't paticularly matter and could be anywhere from 2000 to [2000^53]x[1000^58]. For the purposes of this build we believe Pun-Pun's infinites are irrelivant, but just in case. Rule 3 : Any powers or abilities that require DM intervention to function, (The contract ability of the gate spell for example.) do not function. Excepting that we come to an accord on precisely how that would work, (In the above example, you say the summoned creature would only accept x amount of money for its service and we agree.) Any abilities that use ambiguous wording will likewise be subject to discussion and eventual removal from the build if a concensus cannot be reached. We do however accept every aspect of the Pun-Pun build as written, and will not argue any of the core beliefs that make it up. Rule 4 : Neither group will use Meta-gamed information. We assume our charachter knows nothing about Pun-Pun until we give him a reason to (and even then we will not be using infinite knowledge loops who's wording is ambiguous at best.) We would ask the same privilage be bestowed to our charachter(s) Rule 5: Both groups will abide by the following dice rules. Triple Crit rule. Nat 20 = Auto hit, Auto save. On anything else it is as if you rolled a 30. (20 + a bonus 10). Rule 6: Our build is intended to kill Pun-Pun as is, rather than slaying him before he exists, going back in time etc. Though we could have focused our attention to removing the possible existance of Pun-Pun, its not nearly so challenging as killing the invincible. That said, our charachter is going to be built out of 20 levels, and shaven down as thin as we can as time goes on. It needs to be level 20 before Pun-Pun begins stamping out threats to his rule or it cannot exist. We consider this our only mildly unfair advantage in terms of this build. Rule 7: Under no circumstances will we steal Pun-Pun's tricks. We will not bolster ourself using ice assassin or what have you. Until the trick has been shown once to Pun-Pun, (at which point he dies, hopefully.) We would prefer if your refuting arguement is not something along the lines of "Well Pun-Pun thinks of it first and does it to you." As my partners in crime are not here at the moment, I will leave the rules as are for now. Any futher rules will be appended after the fact once we get the actual build starting to come into its finalization. Now for the questions. These are mostly just situational questions so we can determine what our charachter knows. The build itself should be able to deal with Pun-Pun once we reach him, its more a matter of concealment and location. Where is Pun-Pun?: Basically what plane is he on? If its his Divinely Morphic does the plane still maintain its links to the Astral, or did he cut them? Where on that plain is he, huge fortress, out in the middle of the fields? As much detail here would be appriciated. What is Pun-Pun?: Physically what is he these days. Is he still just a kobald? Or he he a Kobald with 100,000,000 tentcles and no longer recognizable as human? What are his types and subtypes? Does he still have eyes, ears, mouth etc? How about size and Reach? Who is Pun-pun?: For the purposes of this challenge, who knows about Pun-Pun.? The gods would have known about his rise to power. Did he destroy them for it.? If Pun-Pun does not rule the world and generally affects no one, who does know of his existance? What would Pun-Pun do?: If confronted with something he actually saw as a threat? Would he close his eyes if a gaze attack just barely avoided killing him? Or would he charge and destroy the source? Or perhaps both? What about Triple crit, Or just barely making a save against something that would end him? Would he run and hide then pump up if threatened? Alright. That pretty much covers the rules and questions for now. The build will hopefully be posted up and ready slightly after New Years. It has to be done by the seventh. As stated, any further questions will be added as time goes on. Forgive my bad spelling where existed. And good luck to anyone else trying to complete the challenge of killing Pun-Pun. The above rules shouldn't handicap the Almighty Pun-Pun overly much, though if Khan has problems with any paticular ones, he can post a revised rule and we will dicuss the merits of amending the challenge. Same as if he feels the need to add a rule. Thats all for now. Thanks for giving us gamers something to do over the Christmas break Khan, best of luck keeping Pun-Pun alive ^_^
Caros 12-28-05, 06:00 PM	Mine! Just in case we require space!
Wizard Random 12-28-05, 06:24 PM	:bump: :bump: :bump: :bump: :bump: :bump: I hope you get to :fight!: Pun-Pun and Win, I love Khan's Idea but would LOVE :inlove: to see something that can Challenge it. This post in mainly here so that Khan Should he get on can See it. Good luck to you and Happy New Years. :whatsthis
Xeraph 12-28-05, 06:33 PM	A challenger again? *sighs* Smells like a setup with those limited conditions... But, what the hey, I'l place my :twocents: on Pun-pun. Gotta love him. :cheer:
Seerow 12-28-05, 06:42 PM	Wasn't Pun-Pun recently discovered to not have Divine Rank beyond 1, and that only of Ao gave it to him?
LordofProcrastination 12-28-05, 06:55 PM	A good starting point. Setting down guidelines is a major boon to the legitimacy of any challenge. That said, one of the aforementioned guidelines is a little specious. Yes Pun-Pun can create artifacts and SDA's, but for the purposes of this challenge we would ask him to refrain as there are no clear guildines for what those abilities can and cannot do. Salient Divine Abilities do have guidelines for their use, available in the SRD. The SDA rules are just about as clear as any D&D rules -- mostly mechanically sound, with a few points of ambiguity. It seems a little awkward to artificially limit all use of said reasonably-well-described abilities when it can be shown that the challenged character has a method of obtaining at least a few salient divine abilities.
Lokiyn 12-28-05, 07:06 PM	Wasn't Pun-Pun recently discovered to not have Divine Rank beyond 1, and that only of Ao gave it to him? Nah i fixed that, and tempest stormwind bypassed Ao. Of course now we have a possible 100's of DvR 0 Squirrels running around from breeding while invested. Prehaps pun-pun should add squirrels to his portfolio and get some use out of the little buggers.
Caros 12-28-05, 07:33 PM	A good starting point. Setting down guidelines is a major boon to the legitimacy of any challenge. That said, one of the aforementioned guidelines is a little specious. Salient Divine Abilities do have guidelines for their use, available in the SRD. The SDA rules are just about as clear as any D&D rules -- mostly mechanically sound, with a few points of ambiguity. It seems a little awkward to artificially limit all use of said reasonably-well-described abilities when it can be shown that the challenged character has a method of obtaining at least a few salient divine abilities. Entirely my mistake. I can see why wizards of the coast has problems wording a lot of abilities, I can't even make the wording clear on a short one page post ^^; My meaning there was that he should not be 'creating' any Salient Divine Abilities. Khan has pointed out in the more recent pages of the original pun pun thread that he could theoretically create new SDA's. The above rule will be amended to reflect that he is willingly allowed to use any SDA that is printed, just as he is able to use any Ex, Su, or Sp ability. I just don't want him creating one such as the "I win." SDA. Thanks for pointing it out.
Tempest Stormwind 12-28-05, 07:37 PM	As much as I'd love to put my money on people who are up-front about being Canadian (I'm from Edmonton), my money is also on Pun-Pun. Under the "DM intervention is disallowed" condition, there is nothing that you can do that Pun-Pun cannot do, and he can do it better. And with Anticipatory Strike and a true infinite-action loop, he can do it better now. By the way, Lokiyn's right. I figured out several ways to bypass Ao in the thread on Pun-Pun's divine ranks (which I'd rather not retype, and the link is elusive), though I have to admit a few of the more desperate ones involved him leaving the FR cosmology. And it was eventually demonstrated that the new method of infinite Divine Rank -- namely, proxying and reproxying an infinite number of squirrels, and then recalling them all in an infinite-action loop -- does indeed work. The original method of ice-assassin reloops is still in this, just with an intermediate step involved. I forget the exact details, but I do remember Lokiyn had a pretty solid hand to play in that.
PhaedrusXY 12-29-05, 09:45 AM	And it was eventually demonstrated that the new method of infinite Divine Rank -- namely, proxying and reproxying an infinite number of squirrels, and then recalling them all in an infinite-action loop -- does indeed work.Wow... This takes CO to a whole new level of absurdity. :rofl:
Uberman 12-29-05, 06:00 PM	As much as I'd love to put my money on people who are up-front about being Canadian (I'm from Edmonton), my money is also on Pun-Pun. Under the "DM intervention is disallowed" condition, there is nothing that you can do that Pun-Pun cannot do, and he can do it better. And with Anticipatory Strike and a true infinite-action loop, he can do it better now. OH CANADA!!! Hail, from another of the intrepid Pun-slayers. Now as you say, there's nothing we can do that he cannot... but I beg of you to give us a chance before naysaying. Suffice it to say : We have a plan. And i have two quotes for you: Never **** off a bar full of drunk Irishmen And never bet against a group of Canadian Gamers.
Tempest Stormwind 12-29-05, 06:53 PM	Uberman: When, exactly, can we expect to see this plan of yours? As soon as we provide you with a set of nonarbitrary stats for Pun-Pun? I understand you've set yourself a deadline (the 7th), but I'm wondering about posting this thread with an incomplete trick. (I'm not insinuating that you haven't thought this through, since you probably wouldn't have taken the time to come here if you hadn't. The CO board tends to put a LOT more emphasis on function [material] over form [claims], which tends to bias some of us a bit on the defensive.) And while I will defer to your request of assuming that "Well Pun-Pun thinks of it first and does it to you" is invalid , it's not something that can realistically be assumed, given Pun-Pun's immense Intelligence and infinite-time loops. For the purposes of this challenge, though, I'll set that aside. Where is Pun-Pun?: Basically what plane is he on? If its his Divinely Morphic does the plane still maintain its links to the Astral, or did he cut them? Where on that plain is he, huge fortress, out in the middle of the fields? As much detail here would be appriciated.As I understand it, he can be anywhere, including a custom, divinely morphic demiplane of infinite size (which can be done via repeated Temporal Regression (without the XP cost), Genesis (XP cost or not, it doesn't matter, but likely an SU), and a truly epic Time Hop to return home), with links determined as he sees fit. He probably has more than one of these, designed for different purposes (defense, resource construction, recreation, eugenics -- you name it, if it's a purpose for Genesis, he has a nigh-infinite demiplane for each of them). For the purposes of this challenge, though, it could be assumed that he would meet you on a plane of your choice, assuming he didn't already snuff you out (which is one of the assumptions of the challenge) and didn't feel like doing so as soon as he heard the challenge from wherever he was (which is an assumption I'm making to see this carried-out). What is Pun-Pun?: Physically what is he these days. Is he still just a kobald? Or he he a Kobald with 100,000,000 tentcles and no longer recognizable as human? What are his types and subtypes? Does he still have eyes, ears, mouth etc? How about size and Reach?I think he defaults as a Kobold, but he can be anything he wishes, and due to the infinite-actions-now nova (Anticipatory Strike + Psicrystal + Affinity Field + Synchronicity loops, assuming the crystal has Psicrystal Power [Synchronicity] and Font of Power manipulated into it), he can do it beyond instantaneously -- as an immediate action. We did figure out a way to give him a reach of "Anywhere on this plane" using Incarnum, but to my knowledge, Space is his only nonarbitrary stat, being whatever his current form is at the moment. Which, I think, it's safe to assume as "normal kobold." [Editor's note: The last epic spell I created, [i]Create Katamari, was employed by the local game group on Pun-Pun. On the virtue of his noninfinite space, it worked. However, this didn't stop him any more than, say, Swallow Whole is an immediate death for a competent character.] Who is Pun-pun?: For the purposes of this challenge, who knows about Pun-Pun.? The gods would have known about his rise to power. Did he destroy them for it.? If Pun-Pun does not rule the world and generally affects no one, who does know of his existance?This one's kind of vague, and varies from place to place. If he doesn't rule and keeps to himself, then the only people who'd know about it were the witnessess to the actual event (if any survive), anyone who could Metafaculty or Hypercognition him before he became immune to it, any deity with divine senses and a portfolio relating to him, and Pun-Pun himself. All of the above can be eliminated or made to forget. However, we must assume, I think, that your challenger knows about him. Exactly how he does so isn't important -- in fact, I think the only one who is COMPLETELY unconnected with Pun-Pun who learns about him would be the Omniscificer, who uses LordOfProcrastination's wonderful infinite-damage loop with a "gain a bonus based on how much damage you take" spell to gain literally infinite Knowledge checks. What would Pun-Pun do?: If confronted with something he actually saw as a threat? Would he close his eyes if a gaze attack just barely avoided killing him? Or would he charge and destroy the source? Or perhaps both? What about Triple crit, Or just barely making a save against something that would end him? Would he run and hide then pump up if threatened?You're not thinking temporally. He can rewind time itself until before it is a threat and then configure himself to nullify the threat, assuming he didn't already do that before due to his deity senses. He can do these as immediate actions. To anyone other than Pun-Pun, he simply has perfect precognition. This is sort of like Terry Pratchett's Discworld Yetis, who basically "save" their life at a particular point, and if anything happens to them they go back in time to that point, where the event didn't happen and the only different thing is that they have memory of it happening -- which they can now avoid because they know of it, with their perfect, experiential precognition. They've been extinct three times. Took the abbott of the History Monks an amazingly long time to figure out exactly what they were up to. Quick question about Triple Crit: Is this the Three-Twenties-And-You-Die rule? You ARE aware that there are enough unique reroll abilities out there to essentially confirm that he gets three natural 20s in a row, right?
Caros 12-29-05, 11:51 PM	Alright. Well currently we're sitting around preparing to game. I decided to check the post before we start. Tempest: Glad to see you contributing to the discussion at hand. Your post so far has answered most of my questions. Personally I'm ready to post the build as is, but both Uberman, and our other source who is so far chosing to be Anon out of fear that this may backfire. Horribly ^^; Would like to wait for the official info from Khan. The post will be up no later than 12:00am GMT on January 1st. We resolve that Pun-Pun will not see the new year west of Greenwich. We appoligize in advance to Asia. If Khan posts sooner, so will we, otherwise we'll be working off your information Tempest. Thanks for the help. Happy New Year.
tommy_the_cat 12-30-05, 02:13 AM	*takes a seat*
Caelic 12-30-05, 11:40 AM	If he doesn't rule and keeps to himself, then the only people who'd know about it were the witnessess to the actual event (if any survive), anyone who could Metafaculty or Hypercognition him before he became immune to it, any deity with divine senses and a portfolio relating to him, and Pun-Pun himself. All of the above can be eliminated or made to forget. However, we must assume, I think, that your challenger knows about him. Exactly how he does so isn't important -- in fact, I think the only one who is COMPLETELY unconnected with Pun-Pun who learns about him would be the Omniscificer, who uses LordOfProcrastination's wonderful infinite-damage loop with a "gain a bonus based on how much damage you take" spell to gain literally infinite Knowledge checks. Actually, my own strategy for dealing with Pun-Pun not only makes use of a character who doesn't know he exists and bears him no ill will--it requires it. Given that Pun-Pun, being omniscient, will know about any plan to attack him or cause him damage, it seems that the opponent best able to kill him is one who has no INTENTION of killing him.
Khan the Destroyer 12-30-05, 01:03 PM	I'm here, I'm here. Apologies for the late post. Every time I tried to reply, something came up that tied up my time. Alright, here we go again ;). [Disclaimer] : Before I begin to write anything about the challenge itself I just want to make certain everyone is on the same page. Though this challenge is intended to be competitive I want it to keep a happy undertone. I'm at a park, enjoying the atmosphere with so many others already there when I arrive. I'm taking a walk with my newly-born baby. All of a sudden, some stranger walks up and says 'My baby is better than yours!' and knocks my baby carriage over. His monstrous baby begins to pummel mine to the ground. Blood splatters everywhere, painting the park red. Others rush to help my baby, but they can do nothing. Still others point and laugh, and join in with the monstrous attacker. What is left in the wake of this reaper is a carnage beyond any words to describe it. My child is dead, and this new creature is celebrated as a hero for murdering him. As the crowd rushes to applaud this newcomer, I am pushed further and further back, until I am no longer in the park, but merely looking in from beyond the gate. I walk away with my broken baby carriage, a carriage that will no longer hold a child so sweet and precious. How do we keep a happy undertone in that situation? Just kidding. Let's keep it clean :). It is a game after all, we just want to take the name of strongest twink from pun pun and place it on the shoulders of another. Yowzas. Strongest twink? Now I am curious to see if this can simply defeat Pun-Pun or is actually stronger than Pun-Pun. With that out of the way, We are formally calling out Khan the Destroyer in this posting. I formally accept this challenge, and slap you with a glove or something. Rule 1 : Both sides shall only use material that has been printed in official Wotc material. We are well aware that Pun-Pun has access to every feat, spell, salient divine ability etc in existance. That said, we would like Pun-Pun to restrict himself to abilities that have been printed. This makes sense. No point in attacking him at 'full power'. For the purposes of this challenege, he'll go no higher than Super Saiya-jin 3. Yes Pun-Pun can create artifacts and SDA's, but for the purposes of this challenge we would ask him to refrain as there are no clear guildines for what those abilities can and cannot do. Otherwise there is absolutely no point to trying as Pun-Pun creates the following. Actually, Deities and Demigods says that the rules for creating Artifacts are the same rules used to create Epic items. But I'll agree to this as well. I assume that Artifacts and Epic Spells already printed can be used though (assuming they would be relevant)? I win. Pun-pun wins. At anything. Benefit : Any effect that could possibly harm or effect Pun-pun in a way he doesn't like fails to do so. Furthermore every other being in existance is rendered physically incapable of concieving to harm Pun-Pun. Normal : Usually the game actually gets to be played ^_^ Yeah, Pun-Pun has that ability, but he'll remove it with Manipulate Form to fight this challenger. Rule 2: Please pick a number for Pun-Pun's Nigh Infinites. The number doesn't paticularly matter and could be anywhere from 2000 to [2000^53]x[1000^58]. For the purposes of this build we believe Pun-Pun's infinites are irrelivant, but just in case. Uh... alrighty. Hmmm, what would be an easy number that still does the little guy some justice? I don't know. I could set it at 1,000,000,000. If anyone Pro-Pun-Pun would rather see a different number, feel free to suggest it. Rule 3 : Any powers or abilities that require DM intervention to function, (The contract ability of the gate spell for example.) do not function. Excepting that we come to an accord on precisely how that would work, (In the above example, you say the summoned creature would only accept x amount of money for its service and we agree.) Ok. Rule 4 : Neither group will use Meta-gamed information. We assume our charachter knows nothing about Pun-Pun until we give him a reason to (and even then we will not be using infinite knowledge loops who's wording is ambiguous at best.) We would ask the same privilage be bestowed to our charachter(s) I would think that the character would have to know something about Pun-Pun before he decides to attack. But I agree against the rest of the meta-game information. Rule 5: Both groups will abide by the following dice rules. Triple Crit rule. Nat 20 = Auto hit, Auto save. On anything else it is as if you rolled a 30. (20 + a bonus 10). What is the Triple-Crit rule? Is it what Tempest thinks it is, 3 crits and you die? I'm fine with it, but the build will hinge on a house-rule. Rule 6: Our build is intended to kill Pun-Pun as is, rather than slaying him before he exists, going back in time etc. Though we could have focused our attention to removing the possible existance of Pun-Pun, its not nearly so challenging as killing the invincible. That said, our charachter is going to be built out of 20 levels, and shaven down as thin as we can as time goes on. It needs to be level 20 before Pun-Pun begins stamping out threats to his rule or it cannot exist. We consider this our only mildly unfair advantage in terms of this build. Is this saying that although Pun-Pun can know of the character and his intent before the character reaches level 20, he may not act on that knowledge? Rule 7: Under no circumstances will we steal Pun-Pun's tricks. We will not bolster ourself using ice assassin or what have you. Until the trick has been shown once to Pun-Pun, (at which point he dies, hopefully.) We would prefer if your refuting arguement is not something along the lines of "Well Pun-Pun thinks of it first and does it to you." This may be a little bit of a problem. I understand how lame it would be to hear someone say 'Well, Pun-pun can do that too, so just assume he did it'. However, he is assumed to be able to do anything that anyone else can do, with infinitely higher mental stats than anyone that could think of pulling it off. Throughout the Pun-Pun thread, there is no exhaustive list of his abilities and combo's because he has all of them. Even those that have yet to be found out. Again, I understand the concern here on your part. But it would be impossible to type up everything that Pun-Pun can do. What do others think about this? I'm willing to ignore it for this challenge, though it would seem even more of a conditional victory. Where is Pun-Pun?: Basically what plane is he on? If its his Divinely Morphic does the plane still maintain its links to the Astral, or did he cut them? Where on that plain is he, huge fortress, out in the middle of the fields? As much detail here would be appriciated. As Tempest suggested, on his very own Demiplane. In this way, he can affect the traits without having an impact on anyone else. As for removing links to the Astral, that would seem prudent I suppose, assuming Pun-Pun is the cautious type. Further, we can assume that all schools of magic would be non-functional on his Demi-Plane. And there are 1 billion Pun-Pun copies running around with him. What is Pun-Pun?: Physically what is he these days. Is he still just a kobald? Or he he a Kobald with 100,000,000 tentcles and no longer recognizable as human? What are his types and subtypes? Does he still have eyes, ears, mouth etc? How about size and Reach? I guess he would be a regular-looking Kobold. His Reach is inasane and should exceed the length/width of his outer plane, meaning he can reach anywhere on his plane. As Tempest pointed out though, at any moment he can have 1 billion tentacles and all sorts of other natural attacks. Who is Pun-pun?: For the purposes of this challenge, who knows about Pun-Pun.? The gods would have known about his rise to power. Did he destroy them for it.? If Pun-Pun does not rule the world and generally affects no one, who does know of his existance? If we use TG's interpretation of Cerebral Immunity from the Illithid Slayer class, then I can think of no one that would know about Pun-Pun. He doesn't race to become a god, he can make himself undetectable before he tries to ascend. However, I think we should assume that your character knows at least about Pun-Pun. I'm still sifting through some abilities to see if I can get him as close to undetectable as possible. What would Pun-Pun do?: If confronted with something he actually saw as a threat? Would he close his eyes if a gaze attack just barely avoided killing him? Or would he charge and destroy the source? Or perhaps both? What about Triple crit, Or just barely making a save against something that would end him? Would he run and hide then pump up if threatened? As Tempest already said, Pun-Pun can remake events. If something goes poorly, he can stop it before it happens... sort of. This question is kind of tough to answer since I can't really fathom anything that might make the Kobold run and hide. Theoretically, he should be able to destroy anything that would threaten him in such a way. Thats all for now. Thanks for giving us gamers something to do over the Christmas break Khan, best of luck keeping Pun-Pun alive ^_^ Best of luck to you as well. I'm looking forward to seeing this twink that can defeat Pun-Pun after he 'ascends'. For everyone else, is there a more optimized answer to the questions he asked? Tempest, how did you kill Pun-Pun based on his Space? And what is a Katamari? One last comment, I think. As I touched on earlier, Pun-Pun can do a huge number of things to protect himself of harm his attacker. I don't want it to seem like I am adding more and more abilities to him as this challenge progresses. He is assumed to have any beneficial abilities. They'll come up when they are relevant I guess. Also, I'm not so far from Canada. I live in Central New York. We should meet at some equidistant location and settle this once and for all. You guys bring Tempest, I'll bring anyone near me that wants to defend or attack Pun-Pun. I don't know what we might do. Maybe a race, or a battle royale, or a cooking contest. We'll figure it out when we get there.
Tempest Stormwind 12-30-05, 01:28 PM	Uh... alrighty. Hmmm, what would be an easy number that still does the little guy some justice? I don't know. I could set it at 1,000,000,000. If anyone Pro-Pun-Pun would rather see a different number, feel free to suggest it.1000000010, for a nice even modifier. ;) What is the Triple-Crit rule? Is it what Tempest thinks it is, 3 crits and you die? I'm fine with it, but the build will hinge on a house-rule.Just to emphasize this again, since we really need to know what it is. And to emphasize again -- there are enough different reroll abilities that Pun-Pun has that he can effectively use them on every d20 roll, to ensure a natural 20 is rolled. Not to mention his divine ability to treat every roll as a 20 regardless of the actual number. This may be a little bit of a problem. I understand how lame it would be to hear someone say 'Well, Pun-pun can do that too, so just assume he did it'. However, he is assumed to be able to do anything that anyone else can do, with infinitely higher mental stats than anyone that could think of pulling it off. Throughout the Pun-Pun thread, there is no exhaustive list of his abilities and combo's because he has all of them. Even those that have yet to be found out. Again, I understand the concern here on your part. But it would be impossible to type up everything that Pun-Pun can do. What do others think about this? I'm willing to ignore it for this challenge, though it would seem even more of a conditional victory.Go ahead and accept it, I'd say. Remember to keep an immediate action free for Anticpatory Strike, an infinite-action loop (talk to cvazi, disposablehero, or myself for an explanation; others can do it too but those are the ones off the top of my head), and Temporal Regression if all else fails. Tempest, how did you kill Pun-Pun based on his Space? And what is a Katamari?Someone has yet to truly live. Go and rent Katamari Damacy for the PS2, or the sequel, We <3 Katamari. Quick description, from the Speed Demos Archive page (http://speeddemosarchive.com/KatamariDamacy.html) on the game: "Released in September 2004, Katamari Damacy made history by being the first game to explore the controversial ethics and social ramifications of rolling cows up into a big ball. Short, fun, and with great music, it became a sleeper hit." Essentially, it's a very, very, very sticky ball. It rolls over things and picks them up. As its mass grows, it becomes able to roll over larger and larger things. You will find yourself surprised when your originally-5cm katamari to start grows large enough to roll over a cow, or a baseball team, or a house, or an island, or a Thunder God in the sky ("My, Earth is really full of things!" --King of All Cosmos), or.... yeah, the game's a bit odd. Here's an early gameplay video. (http://download.namco-ch.net/katamari_movie.mpg) (Shame it doesn't use the final version of the theme song, which is VERY catchy. The opening video looks like I imagine a good acid trip feels like. I tried to find that, but it seems like I can't.) For the spell, it was an invincible sphere (instantaneous creation effect) that picks up anything smaller than it that it rolls over. Anything stuck on it is permanantly stuck there unless the katamari collides with something it couldn't pick up (which dislodges a few more recent pickups at random, reducing the katamari's size accordingly). And it didn't actually KILL him, so much as make him annoyed. He couldn't disloge himself on his own, due to the way the spell worked. However, he was able to simply create a really big wall all around it until he was knocked free -- which was impressive, since at the time the ball was technically Colossal++ (a size we dubbed "Awesome"). It didn't kill him, like I said, but it worked. ;) Also, I'm not so far from Canada. I live in Central New York. We should meet at some equidistant location and settle this once and for all. You guys bring Tempest, I'll bring anyone near me that wants to defend or attack Pun-Pun. I don't know what we might do. Maybe a race, or a battle royale, or a cooking contest. We'll figure it out when we get there.There's quite a few other Canadian optimizers -- RadicalTaoist and DisposableHero come to mind, and they're closer to you than me. I think that I'd prefer my front-row seat here, though ;)
Khan the Destroyer 12-30-05, 01:54 PM	1000000010, for a nice even modifier. ;) Good call, I almost forgot. Alright, so the number is One Billion and Ten for his ability scores. That is a modifier of 500,000,000. Go ahead and accept it, I'd say. Remember to keep an immediate action free for Anticpatory Strike, an infinite-action loop (talk to cvazi, disposablehero, or myself for an explanation; others can do it too but those are the ones off the top of my head), and Temporal Regression if all else fails. Done. Someone has yet to truly live. Go and rent Katamari Damacy for the PS2, or the sequel, We <3 Katamari. That is one of the strangest things I have been exposed to. I'm definately renting it this weekend. Is the sequel better than the original? Now I can call my brother over all excited about the game I rented. And he'll come over to play it, take one look it at it, ask what is wrong with me, and walk out. And it will be funny. For the spell, it was an invincible sphere (instantaneous creation effect) that picks up anything smaller than it that it rolls over. Anything stuck on it is permanantly stuck there unless the katamari collides with something it couldn't pick up (which dislodges a few more recent pickups at random, reducing the katamari's size accordingly). And it didn't actually KILL him, so much as make him annoyed. He couldn't disloge himself on his own, due to the way the spell worked. However, he was able to simply create a really big wall all around it until he was knocked free -- which was impressive, since at the time the ball was technically Colossal++ (a size we dubbed "Awesome"). It didn't kill him, like I said, but it worked. ;) I can only imagine the kobold's reaction when he realized there was nothing he could do. He probably looked to his side at the Moo'ing cow, then to his other side at the pathetic human struggling to get free and thought 'This is NOT happening!'. There's quite a few other Canadian optimizers -- RadicalTaoist and DisposableHero come to mind, and they're closer to you than me. Wow, Canada has an impressive roster to say the least. I think that I'd prefer my front-row seat here, though ;) Just as well. You've defended Pun-Pun since he was just a little guy. I'm glad to see you here as well.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 12-30-05, 02:45 PM	Here we go again. As a veteran combatant against pun-pun I should tell you he is one tough nut. I seriously doubt any build that involves an infinite loop will succeed though. Once pun-pun has ascended he is immune to just about every form of attack that allows an opposing roll. I could be wrong, but when I tried to crack the challenge I came to that conclusion. So unless you've found another trick besides time regression that can affect the whole multiverse and allow no saving throw or opposed check, I won't hold my breath. I think you will find, as I have, that any solution is often unsatisfactory. If one could even say that I "won" with the Terminator, it was a rather unsatisfactory win. (I also find LordofProcrastination's build a bit unsatisfactory, as it doesn't kill pun-pun post-ascention, but that was not the point of his build I guess.) Good luck to you. I am always hopeful of someone taking pun-pun out.
Caelic 12-30-05, 03:50 PM	I'll be curious to see this. I suspect, though, that any conscious attempt to defeat Pun-Pun will fail. That's why I plan to destroy him accidentally. :)
Tempest Stormwind 12-30-05, 03:58 PM	I'll be curious to see this. I suspect, though, that any conscious attempt to defeat Pun-Pun will fail. That's why I plan to destroy him accidentally. :) I'd love to see how this plan attempts to come to fruition. (Mind you, if it's already posted, I apologize. I kind of bowed out of the Terminator thread a while ago (time travel + quintessence issues), and that's where most of the anti-Pun-Pun attempts were made... and I didn't really follow too much of the Omniscificer since it hinged entirely on DM fiat being induced by the player. Good stunt, though.) I should note that every 'successful' attempt so far has been before his ascension. If yours, or this challenge, succeeds after the transformation, I will probably try to eat my hat.
Caelic 12-30-05, 04:09 PM	The trick to mine is simply this: I don't have to know about Pun-Pun to know about the Sarrukh. I don't have to bear personal animosity towards Pun-Pun to recognize that the Sarrukh pose a severe threat to universal balance. My strategy isn't to attack Pun-Pun--it's to commit preemptive genocide on the Sarrukh race, quite possibly by travelling back in time to stop them from ever coming into being.
Adam500 12-30-05, 07:20 PM	The trick to mine is simply this: I don't have to know about Pun-Pun to know about the Sarrukh. I don't have to bear personal animosity towards Pun-Pun to recognize that the Sarrukh pose a severe threat to universal balance. My strategy isn't to attack Pun-Pun--it's to commit preemptive genocide on the Sarrukh race, quite possibly by travelling back in time to stop them from ever coming into being. Now of course, that would also eliminate several (if not at least a dozen) races from existance... killing innocents. Better have an evil alignment there chap and be a bit more selfish :-p
PhaedrusXY 12-30-05, 08:44 PM	Now of course, that would also eliminate several (if not at least a dozen) races from existance... killing innocents. Better have an evil alignment there chap and be a bit more selfish :-pOr a Palladin. You can justify anything, if you're self-righteous enough about it. :P
thegraveyard 12-30-05, 09:07 PM	Can pun-pun actually be killed if it has all beneficial su, ex, sp abilities? this might be a horrible example of one of the su abilities that pun-pun has (after learning about it, and after aquiring it). I speak of the ability called rejuvenation, its supernatural. the ability can be found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm) or pun-pun can simply use the divine rejuvenation, if he has enough divine ranks to get it (i guess). also, how would pun-pun kill a ghost type character, if the only way to put it to rest would be for pun-pun to truely die? thankyou for the time you took to read or skip over this post.
AegisShade 12-31-05, 04:19 AM	The trick to mine is simply this: I don't have to know about Pun-Pun to know about the Sarrukh. I don't have to bear personal animosity towards Pun-Pun to recognize that the Sarrukh pose a severe threat to universal balance. My strategy isn't to attack Pun-Pun--it's to commit preemptive genocide on the Sarrukh race, quite possibly by travelling back in time to stop them from ever coming into being.By ACCIDENT?! :uh-huh: If by doing this, you aided the yuan-ti in their rise to power and they developed similar or superior powers to the Sarrukh, would you still do it?
Caelic 12-31-05, 12:23 PM	Now of course, that would also eliminate several (if not at least a dozen) races from existance... killing innocents. Better have an evil alignment there chap and be a bit more selfish :-p ...that, or so concerned with cosmic balance that you're utterly ruthless. One of the better quotes from The Mummy pops to mind. "You would kill innocent people!?" "To destroy that thing!? Let me think for a moment--YES!" The logic here is this: 1. The Sarrukh are capable of creating an all-powerful being. 2. The all-powerful being created by the Sarrukh could destroy all life. 3. This is a threat so severe that any measures must be taken to prevent it. But this is neither here nor there; we can debate the ethics of my strategem if and when the current challenger's gambit is resolved.
Zendu 12-31-05, 02:11 PM	/golfclap Hurrah to the challenger, good luck man, your gonna need it.
lostone 01-01-06, 08:44 AM	1000000010, for a nice even modifier. ;) Just to emphasize this again, since we really need to know what it is.I'd say 2,000,000,010 for a nice even +1,000,000,000 modifier. :w00t: It just seems cleaner to have a 1 followed by a bunch of 0's. also, how would pun-pun kill a ghost type character, if the only way to put it to rest would be for pun-pun to truely die?Assuming Pun-Pun didn't just create a new ability that flat out shreds the soul of a ghost causing it to die and not rejuvinate...ghosts *can* be killed. All you have to do is desecrate it's grave. Pun-Pun would have no problems using a Discern Location (or possibly even a DC 100+ Knowledge check) to locate the grave. Go there, urinate on the grave (if a deity does it, is it considered holy water? :D), set it on fire, cast a few spells, etc. Bye-bye ghosty. And if the ghost happens to be guarding its grave, what is it going to do to stop Pun-Pun? It might as well beg and plead because attacking Pun-Pun is a waste of time, and if Pun-Pun is suitably annoyed he'll just swat the ghost with his ghost touch enhanced unarmed strike.
Kribage 01-01-06, 08:52 AM	It's the new year here in Chicago. Pun-pun still lives.... Still, I say go challengers!
DisposableHero_ 01-01-06, 09:48 AM	Wow, Canada has an impressive roster to say the least.All big Psi-heads too, go figure :D If I recall correctly I'm the closest of the bunch to New York, but I too think I'll keep my seat online. Anyway, I'll keep tabs in case there is any movement on the nova and temporal deployment/manipulation front.
Caelic 01-01-06, 12:27 PM	Does upstate NY, about ten minutes from the Canadian border, count? :)
Khan the Destroyer 01-01-06, 01:23 PM	Does upstate NY, about ten minutes from the Canadian border, count? :) You got something against being a New Yorker Caelic? No, I know. Let's just give Canada all of the good optimizers. But if you guys get Caelic... I want Alanis Morissette. Look, don't judge. Just agree with the terms.
Caelic 01-01-06, 02:39 PM	You got something against being a New Yorker Caelic? If you think nothing of crossing international borders in order to get decent Chinese food--you might be from Western New York. ;) As for New Yorkers, there are New Yorkers, and then there are New Yorkers. A good test is whether or not you refer to NYC simply as "The City." I couldn't for the life of me understand why that annoyed so many people when I first moved to Buffalo. :)
RadicalTaoist 01-01-06, 03:29 PM	All big Psi-heads too, go figure :D If I recall correctly I'm the closest of the bunch to New York, but I too think I'll keep my seat online. Anyway, I'll keep tabs in case there is any movement on the nova and temporal deployment/manipulation front. :P You recall incorrectly, my good Acadian. T-DOT!
LordofProcrastination 01-01-06, 03:42 PM	No, I know. Let's just give Canada all of the good optimizers. Good optimizers aren't "given," they're forged in the furnaces of logic, intuition, and obsession. :cool: (See also: LoP isn't particularly nationalist)
l33t Shinobi 01-01-06, 06:51 PM	... :shifty: is 12:00 am jan 1 mean, like this morning? or tmro morning? Becasue, personally, i dont see any pun-pun smashing builds... i wanna see some :dice: :dice: being rolled. and explosions.
Khan the Destroyer 01-01-06, 07:18 PM	Sorry Leet Shinobi. Pun-Pun is going to stick through past the New Year it seems.
Xeraph 01-01-06, 09:18 PM	Iss the 2nd of Jan now in Europe... Still waiting... :)
Ultimatecalibur 01-01-06, 10:04 PM	Just to add my 2 little pieces of metal worth more in value as metal than as currency. It seems to require a series of paradox to defeat Pun-Pun in this way.
Linklegacy77 01-01-06, 10:44 PM	I don't know about this whole thing, I doubt it could possibly beat Pun-Pun. I vote for the Kobold
DisposableHero_ 01-01-06, 10:52 PM	:P You recall incorrectly, my good Acadian. T-DOT!Well we're even then as you've got the wrong peninsula, though I've lived as close as Fredericton and I speak with people in Bathurst every day at work, I'm a Haligonian born and raised. Just be glad I call it Toronto and not Teranna, don't talk like a drunk wannabe irishman, and don't speak in a ghastly crossbreed of French and English (stereotypes suck eh?) :D
Tempest Stormwind 01-01-06, 11:37 PM	Fellas who are still waiting for the explosions: It came and went. The thread is called "Where be Deekin's Mirror?" Showed some promise, but needed to be far, far better researched. As it was, it wouldn't work. And I'd wager my hat that the technique they used wouldn't ever work, no matter how much tweaking they use to do it. Here's a wager. I do, indeed, have a rather large Panama hat. I will physically eat it -- on camera -- if anyone can actually take down Pun-Pun after his ascension without relying on DM fiat. In other words: :tiphat: + A mechanical, non-DM-reliant method of defeating an ascended Pun-Pun = :)
Sisyfos 01-02-06, 03:25 AM	All big Psi-heads too, go figure :D If I recall correctly I'm the closest of the bunch to New York, but I too think I'll keep my seat online. Anyway, I'll keep tabs in case there is any movement on the nova and temporal deployment/manipulation front. Hmm... Doesn't Snow Savant live in NYC? She definitely is one of the big ones.
bomaz 01-02-06, 04:27 AM	taking a seat, waiting, waiting waiting. post the build
lostone 01-02-06, 07:16 AM	taking a seat, waiting, waiting waiting. post the buildApparently you did not read two posts before yours...it came and went...Where be Deekin's Mirror (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?threadid=561320). Quite a big build up for something that did not work. :D
colm_l 01-02-06, 07:34 AM	Here's a wager. I do, indeed, have a rather large Panama hat. I will physically eat it -- on camera -- if anyone can actually take down Pun-Pun after his ascension without relying on DM fiat. Well - there's always the Annulus *shrug*
lostone 01-02-06, 08:17 AM	Well - there's always the Annulus *shrug*I'm pretty sure that was already addressed in the main pun-pun thread.
colm_l 01-02-06, 10:23 AM	I'm pretty sure that was already addressed in the main pun-pun thread. I don't doubt it but I'm curious to see how. Anyone got a link or explanation? EDIT: on further examination of the thread (using a downloaded thread searching for "Annulus") - It was never addressed. The closest people came is "non-psionic pun pun is immune" or "it's too slow to work". What stops a Slayer 10 using the Annulus & Time stop (item etc.) to gain 10 rounds to eliminate Pun Pun?
lostone 01-02-06, 12:50 PM	What stops a Slayer 10 using the Annulus & Time stop (item etc.) to gain 10 rounds to eliminate Pun Pun?The problem is, after his ascension, he knows you're going to use Annulus in this way weeks in advance, and simply kills you out of spite, likely before you even complete your quest to find Annulus.
Tempest Stormwind 01-02-06, 01:30 PM	Furthermore, he could also remove all his psionic abilities or simply grab the annulus first -- even an Anticipatory Strike / Retrieve trick could do it. Plus it isn't entirely clear whether or not Rejuvination would outlast the Annulus. Yes, this was all covered on Pun-Pun's thread.
colm_l 01-02-06, 02:18 PM	The problem is, after his ascension, he knows you're going to use Annulus in this way weeks in advance, and simply kills you out of spite, likely before you even complete your quest to find Annulus. Well the Slayer 6th level ability stops his foreknowledge. This was covered in the Terminator thread. Furthermore, he could also remove all his psionic abilities or simply grab the annulus first -- even an Anticipatory Strike / Retrieve trick could do it. Actually Tempest -by the terms of this challenge he couldn't remove his psionic abilities - he has everything remember. As for Anticipatory strike - you need to be in normal time for him to use it first. Granted this could give some problems since you need to drop out of time stop for the Annulus effect to go off. delayed action maybe? Hmmm. Need to have a think about it. It seems to hinge again on whether the Annulus is an effect or an attack Plus it isn't entirely clear whether or not Rejuvination would outlast the Annulus. hmmm. The trouble is - the nullifying ability is worded in a specific way. It depends on your definition of protection really. Since Khan said he considers it protection (fairly sure it was him- large thread to keep track of). We can ignore this one for the time being. Yes, this was all covered on Pun-Pun's thread. Yes & no - I never really got the impression it was sealed up. More people threw comments around about it for a while then moved on. With the newer additions to anti-pun technology I'm not sure it's impossible to use the Annulus anymore. Edit: just to be clear about this- this isn't meant as an attempt to take down pun pun. More just curiosity as to how it has been prevented.
lostone 01-02-06, 02:31 PM	Well the Slayer 6th level ability stops his foreknowledge. This was covered in the Terminator thread.It even stops a Deity's portfolio sense??? (I missed the Terminator thread). Actually Tempest -by the terms of this challenge he couldn't remove his psionic abilities - he has everything remember.Including the Manipulate Form ability which he can use to remove his psionics. Edit: just to be clear about this- this isn't meant as an attempt to take down pun pun. More just curiosity as to how it has been prevented.By killing the person before they get Annulus. If that person plans to use Annulus to kill Pun-Pun, Pun-Pun will know about it weeks in advance and can take appropriate action before the attack comes (including a pre-emptive strike to kill the person). Assuming that that prestige class does not block a Deity's senses, which is just insane if it does.
Prominence 01-02-06, 02:39 PM	I think a big point was even if pun-pun couldn't sense the slayer, he could sense events anyway - just not the slayer's particular location.
Tempest Stormwind 01-02-06, 02:40 PM	Well the Slayer 6th level ability stops his foreknowledge. This was covered in the Terminator thread.But Cerebral Blind also has two side-effects: 1) Pun-Pun has it, therefore any argument you make about the Terminator also applies to Pun-Pun. 2) It doesn't cover the fact that the Annulus was moved, which he COULD detect weeks before it happened (and then intervene to get it, assuming he didn't already have it in his lair, or intervene to kill whomever approaches it, even by sitting there. He wouldn't know WHO wanted it, due to Cerebral Blind, but he would know that in X number of weeks, someone would take it. Thus, that someone must be annihilated, or the Annulus must be moved to his realm.) I think it'd be prudent for Pun-Pun to immediately seek out that thing and take it as soon as he could. Actually Tempest -by the terms of this challenge he couldn't remove his psionic abilities - he has everything remember. As for Anticipatory strike - you need to be in normal time for him to use it first. Granted this could give some problems since you need to drop out of time stop for the Annulus effect to go off. delayed action maybe? Hmmm. Need to have a think about it. It seems to hinge again on whether the Annulus is an effect or an attackBy the terms of this challenge, he has every ability -- including the Manipulate Form trick to remove his abilities. So long as his initial state is fixed at "everything" it's valid (I couldn't say "Oh, he doesn't have psionic abilities when you find him", but I could say that "Yeah, he's psionic now. In less than an action, he won't be."). All of this also assumes that you're able to get within 100' of him. It also assumes you time the annulus effect perfectly (note: you can do nothing bu concentrate on it for a whole minute) and that Pun-Pun isn't able to react. I can see no way that this could concievably be pulled off. However, I will grant you this: If you CAN find a way to pull it off, while simultaneously encertaining that Pun-Pun cannot counter or evade it, it will qualify for my hat-eating claim. Note that we made this assumption before as well -- that the Annulus MIGHT work, but the odds against it are so astronomically low we're more likely to find a jackalope than to do this. hmmm. The trouble is - the nullifying ability is worded in a specific way. It depends on your definition of protection really. Since Khan said he considers it protection (fairly sure it was him- large thread to keep track of). We can ignore this one for the time being.I'll accept that you could think of it as protection. I look at it more like a contingency, like the Clone spell. Which he has active. He also could use Time Regression on a contingent effect -- in other words, "If I am wiped out, use Time Regression for one round." This gives him a round to react, which is one round too long for any competition. Yes & no - I never really got the impression it was sealed up. More people threw comments around about it for a while then moved on. With the newer additions to anti-pun technology I'm not sure it's impossible to use the Annulus anymore. Edit: just to be clear about this- this isn't meant as an attempt to take down pun pun. More just curiosity as to how it has been prevented. I did say that it'd probably work, but it has such an astronomically low chance of functioning that it may as well be considered impossible. This is how it was left off. If you can figure this out, it will count.
Prominence 01-02-06, 02:43 PM	curiousity, is there anything that allows someone to punch through ability drain immunity?
Khan the Destroyer 01-02-06, 04:13 PM	Well the Slayer 6th level ability stops his foreknowledge. This was covered in the Terminator thread. As others pointed out, it doesn't stop Pun-Pun from knowing the Annulus will be found and taken (which is another point, PC's do not find artifacts without DM intervention). So, Pun-Pun is assumed to have the Annulus at all times. It is the only thing we know of that could possibly destroy him. Since Khan said he considers it protection (fairly sure it was him- large thread to keep track of). We can ignore this one for the time being. Did I say that? I was arguing against Tempest that Pun-Pun would return with Rejuvenation or the Nine Lives ability. Yes & no - I never really got the impression it was sealed up. More people threw comments around about it for a while then moved on. Well, unless someone finds a way to use it on Pun-Pun reliably, we pretty much accept that the chances of pulling it off are so low it shouldn't even be considered. If you use the Slayer ability, then there is no way to 'know' about Pun-Pun, let alone find him. If you use the Annulus, you give away your only advantage, Pun-Pun not knowing your intentions.
Prominence 01-02-06, 05:43 PM	So, Pun-Pun is assumed to have the Annulus at all times. It is the only thing we know of that could possibly destroy him. Why does no one like the Frost Dragon from Dragonlance? Granted, you need to find a way to bypass Pun-pun's ability drain immunity (or negative energy immunity), it -is- capable of destroying a diety (perminently). Or, alternatively, a wizard using Assume Supernatural Ability (oblivion) from the Frost Dragon. Uses a spell or something to obtain a breathe weapon (preferably cold), and takes some levels in Frost Mage (so that it can still deal damage even through cold immunity and stuff).
DisposableHero_ 01-02-06, 08:30 PM	2) It doesn't cover the fact that the Annulus was moved, which he COULD detect weeks before it happened (and then intervene to get it, assuming he didn't already have it in his lair, or intervene to kill whomever approaches it, even by sitting there. He wouldn't know WHO wanted it, due to Cerebral Blind, but he would know that in X number of weeks, someone would take it. Thus, that someone must be annihilated, or the Annulus must be moved to his realm.)More likely Pun-Pun would time regress to the creation of the Annulus, destroy the creator, and use the Annulus until it broke, thus removing the issue.
Lokiyn 01-02-06, 09:18 PM	So, Pun-Pun is assumed to have the Annulus at all times. It is the only thing we know of that could possibly destroy him. You forgot the crystal cask of the great unknown, song of dissolution, Mauvignon Fragmentsp, and the blade of the Attractor Of course pun pun probably has the mindscraper which counters a lot of things once. crystal cask of the great unknown Destroy everything with a divine rank in existance at once. song of dissolution Anthema to all things Mauvignon Fragmentsp Trancend Time itself blade of the Attractor Sever anything from anything, Cut reality to the bone mindscraper Like astral seed, but with an artifact, perma trall 1/week
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-02-06, 09:27 PM	Unlikely, as the Annulus was created long before pun-pun was born. Besides, Time Regression is the bane of pun-pun for many reasons. To use it would reduce his power and its use by another reduces his power. Time Regression is the most balancing power in the game of D&D for this reason... otherwise it's kind of worthless. A more likely solution is that Pun-Pun merely finds the holder of the annulus as soon as he ascends and then promptly dispatches of the thing with a mord's disjunction.
Tempest Stormwind 01-02-06, 09:28 PM	Lokyin: Sources on those? I'd only heard of the Mindscraper, which if I recall correctly showed up in the Mind's Eye series of articles.
Lokiyn 01-02-06, 09:43 PM	Planar Handbook, Lore of the X sections. Pieces of Artifact Class Lore or Items, Similar to the Last Word, it wasn't a physical object, but it was potent knowledge. Sort of like knowing the true name of the universe and saying it sideways
Daobobo 01-02-06, 11:10 PM	This is far closer to a philosophical discussion of God than anything related to dice chucking... -impressed-. I've got a few objections to Pun-Pun which might help provide... direction, I suppose. (They're not builds, I'm not anything more than an amature at that.) Issue 1): General Question If we provide something which eliminates Pun-Pun, wouldn't that be ultimate proof that survivability in DnD has reached zero? That is to say, wouldn't there have to be a set of abilities which gurantee an ability to kill characters, PC and otherwise, without the PC or NPC being able to defend from them, ever? (With the exception of ususual Wishes and non-literal defences, of course. P.S. This is for purposes of PvP builds...) "World-Intergration Issues": Issue 2): Pun-Pun's Past Is Pun-Pun going to be assumed to be the first who takes advantage of this infinite loop? If not, what is he going to do about previous Pun-Puns? Is it plasuble that someone with a high knowlege score would have known the loop existed prior to Pun-Pun and tried to eliminate it, duplicate it, ect? Issue 3): Pun-Pun's World I assume, since we are creating a challenger to Pun-Pun, that other characters exist in this world, such as H.I.V.E builds, epic characters, and DnD deities. Is it unreasonable to assume one of these would have attemped to remove Pun-Pun prior to, or during his metoric rise to power? Issue 4): Pun-Pun's Phases Pun-Pun seems to have several distinct phases during his evolution that he would be challangable in... perhaps he is the millionth Kobald to discover such a circular loop. Some Kobolds would stop "looping" earlier than others. Some Kobalds must be halfway in ascendence, at 999^999 for all stats, but some would be unaware of the circular temperal loop. Some puns would be perhaps unaware of the deific ranks availible to them. Would these psudo-Puns be an issue for the full blown Pun-Pun? Excuse My Ignorance, But.... Issue 6): Other infinite loops. What others are there? Is Pun-Pun's currently the only one? Issue 7): Just curious: What level is Pun-Pun, exactly? As far as I read, he appears to be level 7. Kinda funny that it's such a monster, and it doesn't even max its level first, huh? Though I suppose it could level after its ascension. (New junk added after people responded.) Issue 6): Equality Can Pun-Pun kill himself? More specifically, could he kill a full blown duplicate of himself? The arguments appear to indicate that he might not be able to. If Pun-Pun can kill himself, then Pun-Pun must be mortal to other means, and therefore, to other characters, with different builds.
Patashu 01-02-06, 11:20 PM	This is far closer to a philosophical discussion of God than anything related to dice chucking... -impressed-. I've got a few objections to Pun-Pun which might help provide... direction, I suppose. Mabye one would provide a loophole. Issue 1): General Question If we provide something which eliminates Pun-Pun, wouldn't that be ultimate proof that survivability in DnD has reached zero? That is to say, wouldn't there have to be a set of abilities which gurantee an ability to kill characters, PC and otherwise, without the PC or NPC being able to defend from them, ever? (With the exception of ususual Wishes and non-literal defences, of course.) Issue 2): Pun-Pun's Past Is Pun-Pun going to be assumed to be the first who takes advantage of this infinite loop? If not, what is he going to do about previous Pun-Puns? Issue 3): Pun-Pun's World I assume, since we are creating a challenger to Pun-Pun, that other characters exist in this world, such as H.I.V.E builds, epic characters, and DnD deities. Is it unreasonable to assume one of these would have attemped to remove Pun-Pun prior to, or during his metoric rise to power? Issue 4): Pun-Pun's Phases Pun-Pun seems to have several distinct phases during his evolution that he would be challangable in... perhaps he is the millionth Kobald to discover such a circular loop. Some Kobalds would stop "looping" earlier than others. Some Kobalds must be halfway in ascendence, at 999^999 for all stats, but some would be unaware of the circular temperal loop. Some puns would be perhaps unaware of the deific ranks availible to them. Would these psudo-Puns be an issue for the full blown Pun-Pun? Issue 5): Other infinite loops. What others are there? Is Pun-Pun's currently the only one? 1. If the method of killing Pun-Pun is adaptable, yes. It could rely apon the kobold being a diety, being in a certain place, etc 2. We're assuming that the first one to ever do it IS the Pun-Pun. 3. Well, why would they do it beforehand? He's just a kobold, after all. Untill he spends 1 round in a time loop and emerges all-powerful (unless that got debunked) 4. Like I said, the first one to do it is Pun-Pun. 5. There's the one the Omnicificer uses (with a share pain loop that ends up with -infinity damage, used coupled with masochism for an infinite bonus to something). There's also the Festering Anger Lad, for a strength score that grows by 2 every day. I think there's also something you can do with Consumptive Aura, not sure if it got disproved or not.
Tempest Stormwind 01-02-06, 11:21 PM	This is far closer to a philosophical discussion of God than anything related to dice chucking... -impressed-. I've got a few objections to Pun-Pun which might help provide... direction, I suppose. Mabye one would provide a loophole. Issue 1): General Question If we provide something which eliminates Pun-Pun, wouldn't that be ultimate proof that survivability in DnD has reached zero? That is to say, wouldn't there have to be a set of abilities which gurantee an ability to kill characters, PC and otherwise, without the PC or NPC being able to defend from them, ever? (With the exception of ususual Wishes and non-literal defences, of course.) Hmm... you know, I think it might. However, while we would look on that technique as technically impressive, I'm positive any DM employing it would be considered as cheap as a DM using Pun-Pun against his players. Issue 2): Pun-Pun's Past Is Pun-Pun going to be assumed to be the first who takes advantage of this infinite loop? If not, what is he going to do about previous Pun-Puns?Yes, he's considered to be the first, thus sidestepping the others. However, this is a campaign integration issue, and there could easily be a whole race of Pun-Puns out there. They may or may not be called the Gods. Issue 3): Pun-Pun's World I assume, since we are creating a challenger to Pun-Pun, that other characters exist in this world, such as H.I.V.E builds, epic characters, and DnD deities. Is it unreasonable to assume one of these would have attemped to remove Pun-Pun prior to, or during his metoric rise to power? This is a world-integration issue and entirely up to the DM. Prior to his ascension there are any of a hojillion techniques to prevent his rise to power. Since the CO board is most concerned with boundary conditions where the game breaks down, it is AFTER his ascension that we are most concerned with. Patashu, yes, it's one-round. And it's not so much a time-loop as an infinite loop that grants you a standard action every time it completes. Issue 4): Pun-Pun's Phases Pun-Pun seems to have several distinct phases during his evolution that he would be challangable in... perhaps he is the millionth Kobald to discover such a circular loop. Some Kobalds would stop "looping" earlier than others. Some Kobalds must be halfway in ascendence, at 999^999 for all stats, but some would be unaware of the circular temperal loop. Some puns would be perhaps unaware of the deific ranks availible to them. Would these psudo-Puns be an issue for the full blown Pun-Pun?It's spelled kobold, but let's deal with this anyway. We assume Pun-Pun is unique, and if not, then he is the only survivor of however many have succeeded in doing this (survival of the fittest? There Can Be Only One?). The lesser ones would be no issue to the survivor. Issue 5): Other infinite loops. What others are there? Is Pun-Pun's currently the only one? There are a ton of infinite loops, but Pun-Pun's the only build that can use them ALL at once. One of the classics is any method of resisting disease damage short of immunity (Cancer Mage is a good one) with Festering Anger (Cumulative +2 bonus to Strength, but Con damage). This can be expanded with things like the Aeshkrau Illumian runeword (which applies Strength to Bonus Spells), but a Cancer Mage can't hope to do another favorite, which is Wild Shape, and then Awaken yourself, and then repeat the Wild Shape (changing your type to another valid target) and Awakening again. The Consumptive Field loop grants HUGE boosts to everything it boosts except Caster Level (which is limited), simply by pouring your coffee cup down an anthill. Meanwhile, Pun-Pun can and will do them all.
colm_l 01-03-06, 07:48 AM	But Cerebral Blind also has two side-effects: 1) Pun-Pun has it, therefore any argument you make about the Terminator also applies to Pun-Pun. Fair point - finding pun pun would be impossible by non-mundane means. 2) It doesn't cover the fact that the Annulus was moved, which he COULD detect weeks before it happened (and then intervene to get it, assuming he didn't already have it in his lair, or intervene to kill whomever approaches it, even by sitting there. He wouldn't know WHO wanted it, due to Cerebral Blind, but he would know that in X number of weeks, someone would take it. Thus, that someone must be annihilated, or the Annulus must be moved to his realm.) I think it'd be prudent for Pun-Pun to immediately seek out that thing and take it as soon as he could. That assumes that only one Annulus is in existance. Since there are numerable ways to create Artifacts even as a pc (the first to mind being the mirror of opposition trick discussed before where you copy a god). If he merely has it rather than having destroyed it - the Mirror will also copy the Annulus. By the terms of this challenge, he has every ability -- including the Manipulate Form trick to remove his abilities. So long as his initial state is fixed at "everything" it's valid (I couldn't say "Oh, he doesn't have psionic abilities when you find him", but I could say that "Yeah, he's psionic now. In less than an action, he won't be."). Sure, if Pun Pun gets an action & is aware of you the Annulus stops working on him. Seems fair. All of this also assumes that you're able to get within 100' of him. It also assumes you time the annulus effect perfectly (note: you can do nothing bu concentrate on it for a whole minute) and that Pun-Pun isn't able to react. I can see no way that this could concievably be pulled off. The demiplane aspect is hard to deal with. Other than that - affinity field, synchronicity, font of power & a time stop item once you get there should do the trick. As I said before (less clearly) - if the annulus effect is regarded as an attack, it can't be used in a nestled time stop - however since it doesn't mention it being an attack (it only mentions targeting a psionic creature) - it's using an item which is permissable under time stop. While that would never work in a gmed game - by RAW it seems to fly. He also could use Time Regression on a contingent effect -- in other words, "If I am wiped out, use Time Regression for one round." This gives him a round to react, which is one round too long for any competition. Hmmm. Trouble being - once we get into this level of optimization, the lack of a definition of words really begins to hurt. Since contingency Time Regression protects pun pun from the Annulus nullification - it could be considered a protection & as such can't stop the Annulus effect. That said - it's more a semantic argument than an optimization one. Did I say that? I was arguing against Tempest that Pun-Pun would return with Rejuvenation or the Nine Lives ability. No - turns out I read a post by Tempest quoting from you - in text only it's hard to tell whose post is whose. (post 537 I think) Sorry about that. Well, unless someone finds a way to use it on Pun-Pun reliably, we pretty much accept that the chances of pulling it off are so low it shouldn't even be considered. Point. If you use the Slayer ability, then there is no way to 'know' about Pun-Pun, let alone find him. If you use the Annulus, you give away your only advantage, Pun-Pun not knowing your intentions. I might be being stupid but I don't follow your logic here. I'll come back to it later when I've had some proper sleep.
lostone 01-03-06, 08:17 AM	You forgot the crystal cask of the great unknown, song of dissolution, Mauvignon Fragmentsp, and the blade of the AttractorWhere are these printed? This is far closer to a philosophical discussion of God than anything related to dice chucking... -impressed-.That's appropriate since he is an uber-deity. Issue 7): Just curious: What level is Pun-Pun, exactly? As far as I read, he appears to be level 7. Kinda funny that it's such a monster, and it doesn't even max its level first, huh? Though I suppose it could level after its ascension.What is the point of levels when he has infinite attributes and all abilities ever written as well as any he can imagine? Levels become rather meaningless at that point.
Khan the Destroyer 01-03-06, 12:40 PM	Why does no one like the Frost Dragon from Dragonlance? Granted, you need to find a way to bypass Pun-pun's ability drain immunity (or negative energy immunity), it -is- capable of destroying a diety (perminently). Or, alternatively, a wizard using Assume Supernatural Ability (oblivion) from the Frost Dragon. Uses a spell or something to obtain a breathe weapon (preferably cold), and takes some levels in Frost Mage (so that it can still deal damage even through cold immunity and stuff). Well, how would you mix Dragonlance with Forgotten Realms? I have seen the Frost Dragon mentioned before. Its Oblivion ability can kill gods or something right? Pun-Pun would blast this guy out of the sky before he could be hit with damage. You forgot the crystal cask of the great unknown, song of dissolution, Mauvignon Fragmentsp, and the blade of the Attractor Ahh, but forgetting and not knowing are two different things ;). Do you happen to have mechanics for these puppies? Time Regression is the bane of pun-pun for many reasons. To use it would reduce his power and its use by another reduces his power. In the case of retrieving the Annulus, most likely. But like your Terminator, there can be a buffer zone between the time he ascended and the time he uses Temporal Regression. In other words, Temporal Regression doesn't necessarily make Pun-Pun weaker any more than it does the next guy that uses it. That assumes that only one Annulus is in existance. Under the Major Artifact heading, the very first sentence explains that there is only one copy of each artifact in existence (page 178, XPH). I might be being stupid but I don't follow your logic here. I'll come back to it later when I've had some proper sleep. Sorry. Basically, there were two 'apparent' advantages. That the Slayer couldn't be detected because of Cerebral Immunity/Blind and that the Annulus can be used to kill Pun-Pun. My point was that the Cerebral Immunity/Blind ability applies to Pun-Pun as well, so I don't see how the challenger can find him. If he can find Pun-Pun, then Pun-Pun can find him. Further, using the Annulus allows Pun-Pun to find you before you attack him, since he knows in advance that the Annulus will be moved and he knows that it will suddenly appear in front of him. I say he just finds the thing after he ascends and destroys it :).
Lokiyn 01-03-06, 01:30 PM	They are in the planar handbook. If The items do exist and If they work as advertised, Then assuredly you would have athar at this moment working to complete the crystal cask in thier Citadel at the base of the spire. If they can't find the pieces then stealing divinity using the ice assasin trick to get the ability to make the missing pieces. Make the pieces then swiftly place them inside the zone of anti everything. Assemble the pieces the start a procession of athar toward the outlands as soon as they leave the zone the Cask will activate extinguishing all things with divinity in existance and reavealing the "Great Unknown", With the one athar martyr as a hero
colm_l 01-03-06, 02:53 PM	Under the Major Artifact heading, the very first sentence explains that there is only one copy of each artifact in existence (page 178, XPH). The proof of existance of one does not stop the creation of a very similar item. Let's call it "Annulus 2". It may not be the Annulus but it is no different bar it's creation history. This one was created in the war of anti-pun. Further, using the Annulus allows Pun-Pun to find you before you attack him, since he knows in advance that the Annulus will be moved and he knows that it will suddenly appear in front of him. This one I'm not so sure of. By this logic the Slayer's ability is worthless since you can always just cast scry on his clothing. I'd be of the opinion that the Annulus doesn't register on portfolio senses after the slayer picks it up. That said I wouldn't be sure it's RAW since it's never specifically stated that a characters equipment is part of the character. I say he just finds the thing after he ascends and destroys it :). Fair enough, It does not prevent the creation of an identical item for all intents & purposes though. Sorry. Basically, there were two 'apparent' advantages. That the Slayer couldn't be detected because of Cerebral Immunity/Blind and that the Annulus can be used to kill Pun-Pun. My point was that the Cerebral Immunity/Blind ability applies to Pun-Pun as well, so I don't see how the challenger can find him. If he can find Pun-Pun, then Pun-Pun can find him. Good point - the problem with destroying Pun Pun is summed up as: 1.) avoid detection 2.) know of, find & reach Pun Pun 3.) Pose a threat to Pun Pun Doing all 3 at once is probably close to impossible. Still -it makes for an interesting debate
Lokiyn 01-03-06, 03:00 PM	Good point - the problem with destroying Pun Pun is summed up as: 1.) avoid detection 2.) know of, find & reach Pun Pun 3.) Pose a threat to Pun Pun Doing all 3 at once is probably close to impossible. Still -it makes for an interesting debate Thats why i like the outright suicidal omnidestruction of everything divine in the multiverse at once. :D
Tempest Stormwind 01-03-06, 03:12 PM	The proof of existance of one does not stop the creation of a very similar item. Let's call it "Annulus 2".Minor artifacts are not necessarily unique items, but rather magic items that no longer can be made by common mortal means—even by the hands of epic creators. Major artifacts are unique items—only one of each such item exists. These are the most potent of magic items, capable of altering the balance of a campaign. Sure sounds like the existence of one does preclude the existence of another. Even the Salient Divine Ability "Craft Artifact" merely lets you exceed the normal limits on item creation. Not even Divine Creation can make an artifact. It may not be the Annulus but it is no different bar it's creation history. This one was created in the war of anti-pun. This one I'm not so sure of. By this logic the Slayer's ability is worthless since you can always just cast scry on his clothing. I'd be of the opinion that the Annulus doesn't register on portfolio senses after the slayer picks it up. That said I wouldn't be sure it's RAW since it's never specifically stated that a characters equipment is part of the character.We aren't saying we track the Annulus after he picks it up. We are saying we will notice it being moved -- as in, "It won't be where it should be, NI weeks from now -- it will be moved." Fair enough, It does not prevent the creation of an identical item for all intents & purposes though.No, the rules on creating artifacts stop that. Good point - the problem with destroying Pun Pun is summed up as: 1.) avoid detection 2.) know of, find & reach Pun Pun 3.) Pose a threat to Pun Pun Doing all 3 at once is probably close to impossible. Still -it makes for an interesting debate I don't think it's possible either. Lokiyn, once I look in the Planar Handbook again I'll respond to your claims.
Lokiyn 01-03-06, 03:30 PM	If The items do exist and If they work as advertised, The biggest problem is that they aren't garunteed to exist (of course the others aren't either so.....) *edit* Oh and Artifacts are still magical items correct? If so then this comes into play Baccob's entry has Create magic items: As the Deity of magic, Baccob can create any kind of magic item. So it looks like if you can get the magic portfolio you're golden on the artifact creation.
colm_l 01-03-06, 04:38 PM	Sure sounds like the existence of one does preclude the existence of another. Even the Salient Divine Ability "Craft Artifact" merely lets you exceed the normal limits on item creation. Not even Divine Creation can make an artifact. No, the rules on creating artifacts stop that. Actually Tempest I think it's just badly written. Besides not being able to craft an artifact is a "normal limit" on item creation isn't it? ;) Besides - failing that try reality revisioning it undestroyed We aren't saying we track the Annulus after he picks it up. We are saying we will notice it being moved -- as in, "It won't be where it should be, NI weeks from now -- it will be moved." This really depends on how you interpret cerebral blind. If it's a literal blind spot - would Pun Pun notice his inability to notice the Annulus? Unfortunately - once we get to the levels of Pun Pun & "Pun-slayer" builds optimization turns into a word game. I don't think it's possible either. Short of an anti-Pun using an infinite manipulate form loop to remove all of Pun Pun abilities starting with Manipulate form you'd be right. Even that's just using the same ability as Pun Pun does & waiting till he rolls a one. Not exactly elegant
Kresalak 01-03-06, 04:43 PM	Actually, as a deity, rolling a 1 is not an autofail for Pun-Pun.
Tempest Stormwind 01-03-06, 04:53 PM	Actually Tempest I think it's just badly written. Besides not being able to craft an artifact is a "normal limit" on item creation isn't it? ;) Besides - failing that try reality revisioning it undestroyedI'll give you that this is badly written, but I wouldn't call it ambiguous. Enough things elsewhere say that major artifacts are one-of-a-kind and cannot be created in any means, and destruction is possible only by a certain, legendary, technique. Say what you will about Pun-Pun, but it is the single-most-involved build I have ever seen when it comes to twisting the rules. This really depends on how you interpret cerebral blind. If it's a literal blind spot - would Pun Pun notice his inability to notice the Annulus? Unfortunately - once we get to the levels of Pun Pun & "Pun-slayer" builds optimization turns into a word game.Not really. He knows of anything that affects his portfolio, by the rules. This would include things like the disappearance of a major artifact. And since he can percieve this NI weeks into the future, he can intervene and hold on to it himself before any mortal can reach it. Short of an anti-Pun using an infinite manipulate form loop to remove all of Pun Pun abilities starting with Manipulate form you'd be right. Even that's just using the same ability as Pun Pun does & waiting till he rolls a one. Not exactly elegant Actually, as a greater deity, he doesn't fail saves on a natural 1, and treats the outcome of all rolls as if he rolled a 20 (though he still rolls to see if it's a "natural" 20).
Lokiyn 01-04-06, 12:29 AM	Even the Salient Divine Ability "Craft Artifact" merely lets you exceed the normal limits on item creation. Not even Divine Creation can make an artifact. Create Magic Items: A deity of rank 1 or higher can create magic items related to its portfolio without any requisite item creation feat, provided that the deity possesses all other prerequisites for the item. The maximum item value a deity can create is a function of its divine rank (see the table below). The item’s cost and creation time remain unchanged, but the deity is free to undertake any activity when not laboring on the item. Divine Rank Maximum Market Price 1–5 4,500 gp 6–10 30,000 gp 11–15 200,000 gp (any nonartifact) 16–20 No maximum (including artifact) If a deity has the item creation feat pertaining to the item it wishes to create, the cost (in gold and XP) and creation times are halved. Presumably that means that artifacts take a minimum of 200 days (or 200/2) to create.
Tempest Stormwind 01-04-06, 12:34 AM	A deity of rank 1 or higher can create magic items related to its portfolio without any requisite item creation feat, provided that the deity possesses all other prerequisites for the item. And what, pray tell, are the prerequisites of creating an artifact?
HotSake 01-04-06, 01:36 AM	And what, pray tell, are the prerequisites of creating an artifact? Interestingly, one of them seems to be Divine Rank no less than 16 and no higher than 20. Looks like Pun Pun still has a use for all those squirrels after he's attained his NI DR. As for creating artifacts, I don't recall seeing any rules for that. The impression I got from any item creation rules mentioning artifacts was that they're magic items beyond a certain power level. If a deity has no limit on his item creation, then artifacts of all varieties are within his capability, theoretically. Though, as I said, I've never seen creation requirements listed for any artifacts. Assuming you found out how to create artifacts, I see no reason you can't create a duplicate of any major or minor artifact in this excerpt (emphasis mine): Major artifacts are unique items—only one of each such item exists. "Exists" is present tense. The text doesn't say "only one of each such item may exist." It only tells you that none have been duplicated yet.
Lokiyn 01-04-06, 03:30 AM	And what, pray tell, are the prerequisites of creating an artifact? Step 1.) Gain Divine rank 16-20 Step 2.) Step 3.) Artifacts! (Profit) Anyway i haven't a clue. All i was doing was noting that the all inclusive statement you cannot make artifacts was made. Since i love these obscure challenges and odd little rules tucked away i found the rules that show that statement to be untrue. Now we have the capability to make artifacts, without the actual map to get form step 1->3. I suspect that most artifacts must be designed through thier Rp text. Or you treat it like one of those vauge abilities. here is what we know. Artifacts are Magical items Artifacts have a Gp Value of 200,000+ Minimum Artifacts use item creation feats depending on thier types. Angelwing sword needs craft magical arms and armor, and the Annulus would need Craft Wondrous Item. Presumably judicious use of wish will cover Nearly all the Prereqs. In addition to the divine abilities of i can cast everything. (really though an ice assasin of Baccob takes care of everything, its stated in his entry that he has the capability to create any magical item and that includes artifacts.) Really just looking at Baccob you can see what you need to make all artifacts. All item creation feats All Metamagic feats All SDA's relating to item creation All Cleric Spells All Sorc/wiz Spells Logically an artifact requires some combination of the above, or if you have all the above its assumed you meet all the prereqs for any artifact. Or you could just Aquire my favorite (ex) ability Master Smith (ex): Midguard dwarves gain Craft Magic arms and armor, craft wondrous item, and forge ring as bonus feats, They are considered to have the prerequisites necessary to craft any magic item of these types, even if they do not otherwise meet the requirements or have the ability to cast the necessary spells. Artifacts still considered magic items. Midguard dwarves can make any magic item that is a Weapon, Armor, wondrous item, or ring. So there now we can dispense with prereqs. Now the only question is. At what cost? Thats the question i don't have a twisted sidestep the issue answer for.
Lina_Inverse 01-04-06, 03:30 AM	As for creating artifacts, I don't recall seeing any rules for that. The impression I got from any item creation rules mentioning artifacts was that they're magic items beyond a certain power level. If a deity has no limit on his item creation, then artifacts of all varieties are within his capability, theoretically. Though, as I said, I've never seen creation requirements listed for any artifacts. Assuming you found out how to create artifacts, I see no reason you can't create a duplicate of any major or minor artifact in this excerpt (emphasis mine): Problem, Epic magic items can easily duplicate many artifacts. Or exceed them. Since epic scales to Pun-Pun. What makes an artifact is DM fiat. >_> <_< Spheres of annilation can kill pun-pun, you cant hit him though. >_> <_< If i can use slayers d20, giga slave can kill pun-pun. But again, if you can hit him.
Grim_Revenant 01-04-06, 03:40 AM	Sphere of Annihilation can't touch him.He has the Control Sphere supernatural ability of the Entropomancer in Complete Divine. It passes right through him without affecting him.Quote (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=8127413&postcount=18) from the "Where be Deekin's Mirror" thread. Entropomancer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040502a), from the Complete Divine web excerpt.
Tempest Stormwind 01-04-06, 03:43 AM	I kind of guessed from the name you'd know a bit about Slayers. :p By the way, what does this giga slave thing do? In d20 terms, at least -- I have seen enough of Slayers to have a general idea of that one. As for the Sphere, it can't touch him, but it would work if it could.... until he Rejuvinated. One other thing you forgot to mention would be the Annulus. I have a sneaking suspicion it'd work (assuming that it bypassed Rejuvination). Regrettably, GETTING it to work is nigh-impossible (due to divine interaction rules, Divine Splendor, infinite action loops, and all the other things discussed on the Pun-Pun thread). You do raise an excellent point, though -- if epic item creation rules can match an artifact exactly (the Mace of Cuthbert comes to mind), what adds the artifact distinction to the item?
Lokiyn 01-04-06, 04:02 AM	You do raise an excellent point, though -- if epic item creation rules can match an artifact exactly (the Mace of Cuthbert comes to mind), what adds the artifact distinction to the item? Presumably the only real distinction is dependant on what side of the line you are standing. From a 1-20 Viewpoint the most powerful magical item a mortal can make is capped at 200,000gp ish. Anything beyond that is an Artifact and is made by gods. From a 21+ Viewpoint its simply an Epic feat away and you can now start cranking out Artifact class items. Yet another reason i dislike the Epic Handbook, or rather i want to see it revised or replaced. At least that is the one single distinction i can see to make between epic item s and artifacts.
Lina_Inverse 01-04-06, 04:42 AM	I kind of guessed from the name you'd know a bit about Slayers. :p By the way, what does this giga slave thing do? In d20 terms, at least -- I have seen enough of Slayers to have a general idea of that one. It erases a 100foot minium with no maxium area out of existanse nothing under any circumstanses can bring the area back or prevent the effect. If i could get one off, pun-puns a goner. The problem is getting an action to cast it. Although i could just target the entire plane hes on, hed use an immediate action loop even if i quickened the blasted spell. As for the Sphere, it can't touch him, but it would work if it could.... until he Rejuvinated. One other thing you forgot to mention would be the Annulus. I have a sneaking suspicion it'd work (assuming that it bypassed Rejuvination). Regrettably, GETTING it to work is nigh-impossible (due to divine interaction rules, Divine Splendor, infinite action loops, and all the other things discussed on the Pun-Pun thread). Getting anything to work is night impossible. You do raise an excellent point, though -- if epic item creation rules can match an artifact exactly (the Mace of Cuthbert comes to mind), what adds the artifact distinction to the item? DM fiat.
colm_l 01-04-06, 05:49 AM	I'll give you that this is badly written, but I wouldn't call it ambiguous. Enough things elsewhere say that major artifacts are one-of-a-kind and cannot be created in any means, and destruction is possible only by a certain, legendary, technique. Major artifacts are unique items—only one of each such item exists. These are the most potent of magic items, capable of altering the balance of a campaign. Unlike all other magic items, major artifacts are not easily destroyed. Each should have only a single, specific means of destruction. Exists does not imply "can exist". There is also no mention of them being impossible to create. Perhaps it lurks somewhere else? Say what you will about Pun-Pun, but it is the single-most-involved build I have ever seen when it comes to twisting the rules. It's more the Divine Proxy trick & Manipulate form loop meaning anything anyone can do Pun Pun can do better. Not really. He knows of anything that affects his portfolio, by the rules. This would include things like the disappearance of a major artifact. And since he can percieve this NI weeks into the future, he can intervene and hold on to it himself before any mortal can reach it. I guess I didn't explain what I meant very well. Every Human being has a blind spot in their vision (due to the placement of the optic nerve). You don't notice it untill someone else points out how to find it. I'm curious if that's how a slayer would appear to any mystical search. Would Pun Pun notice the absence of the Annulus or would he treat it like a person treats an object when it slips into your blind spot & not even notice it's disappearance? Actually, as a greater deity, he doesn't fail saves on a natural 1, and treats the outcome of all rolls as if he rolled a 20 (though he still rolls to see if it's a "natural" 20). Figured there would be something like that. Bloody Gods.
lostone 01-04-06, 08:02 AM	You do raise an excellent point, though -- if epic item creation rules can match an artifact exactly (the Mace of Cuthbert comes to mind), what adds the artifact distinction to the item?I thought the key difference between an artifact and an epic item is that an artifact can only be destroyed in a specific way (different for each) often requiring an epic/legendary quest to a strange location or to create a strange and seemingly impossible situation. Epic items can be sundered by other epic items.
willxiv 01-04-06, 02:40 PM	What is Pun-Pun's alignment... well, at the moment?
lostone 01-04-06, 02:50 PM	What is Pun-Pun's alignment... well, at the moment?Chaotic Evil :bigeyes: :tantrum: :censored: :uh-huh: :help: :gah: :coolcthul Honestly I'm not sure it was ever specified since I don't think the build is alignment specific.
Khan the Destroyer 01-04-06, 03:23 PM	Tempest, A Sphere of Annihilation won't hurt Pun-Pun. It passes right through him. About Artifacts... Page 277 says that 'their means of creation are long gone'. And also 'they are magic items that can no longer be created, at least by common mortal means'. Heck, even finding an artifact is up to the DM, let alone creating one. Any build using an artifact (wether to kill Pun-Pun or do something else) is operating under a pretty big assumption. From what I gather, only deities can make them, and when they do they use the rules for creating Epic Items. But Artifacts are still different from Epic Items. As for what alignment Pun-Pun is, I think he is True Neutral.
FromTheShadows 01-04-06, 04:04 PM	Alright, after my first attempt at stopping the omniscience of Pun-Pun, the whole Slayer wording fiasco, I think I see something else that might hinder a part of it. As this seems to be where everyone is discussing the weaknesses of the build at the moment, I'll put it here. Now, the current method, assuming I'm remembering the discussion right, is that Pun-Pun gains his ranks by being proxied by a god-copy, proxying something else and losing his rank in the process, and then being proxied by another god-copy so that the process can continue. He then regains his ranks, leaving him quite high up in the divine heirarchy. How is it that Pun-Pun goes about gaining more portfolios this way, or any way, for that matter? I don't remember anything saying that gain or loss of portfolios is linked to divine rank gain or loss. Even in the case that it somehow was, the fact that you're 'regaining' as opposed to gaining ranks might hinder that explanation. The description of the proxy ability mentions nothing about gaining access to the portfolios of the investing god. Of course, you still get 'the abilites of a rank 1 demigod', which allows you to get some type of portfolio as a result. Keep in mind, though, that portfolios tend to be limited, even among greater gods, who have three or four specific ones at the most. This means a specific choice or choices might have to be made about Pun-Pun's portfolios, depending on if I'm right here or not. If I am, the now greater limitations on Portfolio Sense should allow some more chinks in Pun-Pun's armor.
NightBreeze 01-04-06, 04:07 PM	Squirrels, i suppose. He can sense anything that affects any squirrel months before :D