Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DeadKeepWalking 02-11-06, 03:10 PM	Can any of you make a 7th level character (one for 2nd and one for 3rd) that can survive a minimum of 5 game sessions, about 2-4 hours each session, against EL 6-10 without support from any other character, and no chance of escape? Two rules, core only, and NO MUNCHKIN! If one of you can do that, you would solve the worst string of luck that has lasted for 10 years. No character I have made, except one, has lived past 4 game sessions, and it doesn't help that the rest of the players don't back you up. The one that did, died in the 5th game session. I have played with many different groups, and DMs. The DMs are not out to get me, I just have no one to rely on in dangerous situations. Any ideas about surviving when escape is impossible would also be appreciated.
J-A-R-N-O 02-11-06, 03:23 PM	I say, play C.o.D.zilla, that is Cleric or Druid. Both classes can be really good in melee, and have full casting in addition of that. If you're not surviving then, you're either doing something very wrong, or completely screwed. Especially the Druid will own anything else in a core only game, but the cleric won't come far behind.
Tweedledope 02-11-06, 03:25 PM	What sorts of creatures do you usually fight? Is it mainly NPCs or monsters? Overall, I would have to say that for a survivability standpoint you'll probably want to look at something like: Warforged Barbarian 3/Fighter 2/Juggernaut 5/FB 10 Of course, you'll only be level 7 but, you should get levels pretty quick and that is a total hoss of a build. You'll be doing some massive damage, you'll be immune to almost everything (including the nonlethal damage from the Frenzied Berzerker). The only thing you need to watch out for is your will save which is pretty deplorable. You can try to fix this by taking Iron Will but, that just wastes a precious feat slot. I always recommend that you take Three Mountains Style from the Complete Warrior for this build because you'll be hitting often and when you score two hits in the same round, the opponent is nauseated (can't do jack) for the next round...coup de grace anyone? -=TD=-
mvincent 02-11-06, 03:27 PM	Try wizard7: - An enchanter could use charm monster to acquire allies quickly. - A necromancer could do the same thing with animate dead. - An Evocker could just blow everything up, then sit in a Rope trip for a couple of days to replenish his spells (using Mnemonic Enhancer to effectively double the amount of fireballs he's armed with on each outing). - A diviner or conjurer could scry or use Arcane eye on any encounters before-hand, then dimension door in, blow everything up, and maybe dimension door out if anything survives - An illusionist might do something similar, but be invisible while doing so. - A Transmutator might polymorph into a seven-head hydra to make quick work of encounters. etc. Given careful planning and time to rest between encounters (rope trick is nice for this), I'd think most wizard builds could manage it.
DeadKeepWalking 02-11-06, 04:05 PM	Typically up against monsters from all across the spectrum. Everything from beholders, dragons, chimeras, to small armies of kuo-toa, orcs, reverents, ghouls, pretty much everything that can be used to make an EL 6-10. I am not dying because my characters can't stand in a fight, my characters are dying because no one backs me up. Case and Point: I had a fighter, who was one of the two front line combatants, and the clerics in the party would heal the other fighter's littlest scratch, but won't do anything to keep me from dying. Their excuse, "He is our tank." I have played all core classes, and all the variatons of said core classes, at some point in time over the 10 years, with many different groups, with the same outcome everytime, a character that dies nomatter how much knowledge there is before hand or time to prepare. That is why I need ideas, but I only have core books, and one of the few people who actually has books amongst most of the groups I have played with. I need a 7th level something that can stand through 3 fights a session, for at least 5 sessions (that way I am not making a new character everyweek), against EL 6-10 without back up, rest, or possible escape. To take a break between encounters is to be left behind by the party. The groups I have played with over the years want to plow through to the boss of each quest without stopping, unless it takes a few days to travel to the boss.
Prominence 02-11-06, 04:16 PM	Okay, you want to play a cleric or druid, possibly wizard then. If the party won't give you support, make your own. Summon Monster and Summon Nature's Ally. Make sure to take Augmented Summoning and go for the 1d4+1 stuff. Druid can wildshape into an eagle and fly away, or something with a burrow speed, or swim speed, so unless you're in a catacomb you always have some measure of escape at fifth or higher. Wizards, Rogues, and Bards can all use Dimension Door. Dimension Door can put you several hundred feet away. If you're inside somewhere, this generally means '600 feet, up." Teleport, dimension door, etc. Clerics have the summon monster lines and planar allies. Use these so you have back up. A Celestial Bison is incredibly strong at SM3. Finally, take leadership. Get a strong cohort, maybe be a druid with a wizard cohort to throw up walls to get a better escape. This means you'll always have -three- people. You, your animal companion, and your cohort. Heck, be a druid with a druid cohort (RP yourself and you have a druid learning the path). You now have four characters. If you spend your first turns summoning nature's allies, you can get up to 10 additional temeporary allies. This is enough to completely surround or atleast block any monster. I know I'll be persecuted the Natural spell bit, but.... Human Druid 7 1. Spellfocus (Conjuration), Augmented Summoning 3. Spell Penetration 6. Leadership You'll need to save your wildshaping for runnin' since you won't be able to cast in it, but the cohort should improve your survivability more.
DeadKeepWalking 02-11-06, 04:24 PM	How about some ideas for 2nd ED as well? I have a cleric that focuses around summoning for 3rd ED, but haven't had a chance to play him, since the local group plays 2nd ED. Besides, this cleric is best once level 11 is reached. I have played clerics and druids before, and they usually live to about the third session at best. Magic isn't prominent in the campaign, so people who use magic are primary targets. My Cleric for 3rd ED (using photo copied material from books I don't have) Human Cleric level 7/Redeamer (from quintessential cleric) level 4 Domains War (required for Redeamer) and Summoning (from Spell Compendium) Feats Conjure Master (Feats book) all summoned creatures have +4 STR, +4 CON Spell Focus Conjuring (required for Conjure Master) Augmented Summoning, all summoned creatures +2 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CON Combat Casting Spell Penetration BAB, same as 11th level cleric Saves, same as 11th level cleric Spells, same as 11th level cleric (Redeamer has +1 divine spellcaster each level for determining spells) Special Abilites All conjure spells are caster level +5 I can use ALL conjure spells, including druid and wizard only conjure spells All summoned creatures have MAX HP if summoned on religious ground whether it is known or not When using any of the planer ally spells, I don't have to make a deal with the outsider summoned, and the outsider does what I say without asking for anything in return, still have to pay the XP. I also gain proficiency with all Martial weapons. But, seeing as the local group doesn't play 3rd ED, I can't really play this character at the moment.
mvincent 02-11-06, 05:00 PM	my characters are dying because no one backs me up. Case and Point: I had a fighter, who was one of the two front line combatants, and the clerics in the party would heal the other fighter's littlest scratch, but won't do anything to keep me from dying. Their excuse, "He is our tank."Elaborating on your situation certainly changes things. Mechanically, I would simply suggest a defensive character. Socially, I would suspect that changing your PC isn't the actual solution needed.
Tweedledope 02-11-06, 05:25 PM	Elaborating on your situation certainly changes things. Mechanically, I would simply suggest a defensive character. Socially, I would suspect that changing your PC isn't the actual solution needed. I would also beat the hell out of the clerics because they aren't being very logical. Seriously, what good is a tank if he's dead? Dumb...and they're "supposed" to be wise. It's too bad that D&D players aren't as "wise" as the characters they portray. -=TD=-
Judging Eagle 02-11-06, 05:29 PM	You're in the wrong forum IMO. Thsi should be asked in the What's a Player to do? Forum. In any case here's your answer: -Talk to your fellow players and tell them that your sick and tired of having characters that constantly die after only a few sessions. -You can get access to the 3.5 rules at the wizards site so you could replace your 2nd ed campaign with a 3.5 one; and www.d20srd.com is the online hypertext SRD for 3.5 -If that fails start playing a backline wizard and start throwinf fireballs indiscriminately. When the main tank get's hit, claim it's an error since you wanted to hit a bunch of enemies as well, if the party goes down when the tank dies; meh, serves them right for being idiots. Only fools let party members just die in a game of dnd. Hell, I try to have even enemies survive if they're not truly evil.
DeadKeepWalking 02-11-06, 06:39 PM	I came here for advice about building a character that can stand alone against almost any encounter of up to 3 levels stronger than my character, because in no group I have joined, have I had support. I also have a thread in What should a player do?, and all the suggestions there have been, build a better character, find a new group, play online instead of with other people face to face. I have tried the find other groups many times throughout the past 10 years and still have to stand alone, and I have tried building better characters that can stand alone. I was hoping some of you may have a few ideas of a better character, hence the first post when I started this thread. I am not the one running the campaign, and the DM wants to play 2nd ED because he believes 2nd ED is better. Whether it is better or not, I don't really care. I just want to live more than 2 game sessions, so I don't have to make a new character every week. The DM has the only set of 2nd ED books, and I have a set of core 3.5. I know how to play 2nd ED, so I am not at much of a disadvantage. As for talking to the other players, it hasn't seemed to work. The other players are a tight knit group of friends, and I am an outsider to that group. They have been playing together for usually a few years, and have developed a synergy they don't want to risk ruining, but at the same time don't want to turn another player away. So, my only options are, stop playing altogether, start playing online (I prefer to be playing with people face to face), or building a character that can survive in a fight with a dragon/beholder/reverent/small army by himself while everyone else focuses on the other half of the hostiles. The other fighter was the "tank." I was just someone that drew attention away from the "tank," meaning I wasn't really needed. That incident was about two groups, and a move ago.
Neeek 02-11-06, 09:17 PM	I'm still trying to figure out what you mean by "NO MUNCHKIN!"
RigorMortus 02-11-06, 10:52 PM	Build a chain fighter, your aigh abilities in order are dex, con, and str,be a human the eight feats youll need to have are Dodge, mobility, spring attack, combat reflexes, combat expertise , improved trip, exotic wepon profecency spiked chain, and power attack, if you manage to survive and level further take whirl wind, cleave, and great cleave. see what you do is since the chain is a reach weapon when you get charged you get an attack of opportunity then on your round take a five foot step to the left attack declare a trip atempt and then spring 10 feet back then when they get up attack of opportunity and when they charge attack of opportunity lather rince repeat. just don't do it whith your back to a cliff. another thing you can do is a level seven rouge abilities would be dex, int and cha; respectively then max out your bluff, hide , move silently, use magic devise, tumble, listen, spot, and search, slight of hand wouldn't hurt much eaither then get a crpa load of wands that cast different types of rays this way you can sneek around and hit an opponent with ray of frost and sneek attack, three feats to get dodge, combat expertise, and improved feint this way you can catch your opponent flat footed in combat then hit them with sneek attack. oh also you can ac ***** with that build buy going defensive sliding 5 from bab to ac call dodge and the prep a tumble(DC 15) to double the dodge bonus.
DeadKeepWalking 02-11-06, 11:27 PM	And now for something completely different... How about some character ideas for a 2nd ED campaign, since that is what the local group plays, and they don't want to play 3rd.
Neeek 02-11-06, 11:48 PM	Which books do you get you use for your 2nd ed campaign? Specificaly, do you get Skills and Powers? And can you be a Minotaur?
PhoenixInferno 02-11-06, 11:50 PM	I came here for advice about building a character that can stand alone against almost any encounter of up to 3 levels stronger than my character, because in no group I have joined, have I had support. There's only one constant between all those groups.
Reinhart 02-12-06, 12:57 AM	And now for something completely different... How about some character ideas for a 2nd ED campaign, since that is what the local group plays, and they don't want to play 3rd. Too bad 2nd edition D&D is decades old and not a product of WotC. Not that D&D3.0/d20 is the ultimate system but the fact that your gaming group is still using that old hunk of junk system might say something about their ability to adapt or recognize improvement. What I remember about AD&D was the horribly rigid character choices, and the absurdly complex but unrealistic game mechanics. Oh well, off of my high horse, it was still a playable system that got us where we are now. Back then I didn't really optimize much, since so much of that game was determined through random dice and I was a bit young to start analyzing the system with probability and statistical modeling. But I remember people thinking that dual-classing was usually better than single-classing. And there were expliots with small weapons and the initiative bonuses and number of extra attacks you got with them. Anyway . . . my advice is to find another group. Gaming is only as good as the people involved. If these folks are frustrating you then perhaps you shouldn't be gaming with them. Of course Pheonix brings up a valid point too . . . are you sure your own behavior isn't bringing about the lack of cooperation or coordination?
Judging Eagle 02-12-06, 09:06 AM	Actually; on the Spiked chain-tripper; it's Str, Con, Dex for AC. You need high str to both trip targets, hit hard, and get 1 1/2 damage since it's a 2H weapon. Using high dex /low str to attack and trip is good for your AC and To-Hit; bad for damage and trip successes though. I should know, I tried it and realized that str is still better than dex in a melee. As for making a 2nd ED character. You're going to have to list every book you have access to, since the character kits (read: prestige classes) for the different characters all stack. On building a character... maybe go for a dwarven fighter/cleric; tough in a fight, survivable and able to self-buff a bit. You'll be a bit lower lvl b/c of splitting xp between the classes, but act as an off-tank or tank support. Failing that just play the toughest cleric you can. If you really want to bring the group you play with up to 3.5 speed, you might want to consider printing the 3.5 SRD word documents that WoTC hosts and giving it as a binder to your DM. Myself and an other player in my current group used to play 2nd Ed dnd while a third one used to play DnD when it was only a trio of pamphlets for chainmail/ravenloft/greyhawk (I think the 3rd one was greyhawk at least). So we know the old system. Personally, I find the addition of skills and skill ranks to greatly beat the old non-weapon proficiencies that could never be really used and that characters were either suprised or were alerted by the DM to an ambush or a hidden object at random or pre-determined [ie. the fatal art of railroading]. The 3.0/3.5 system makes for a much more structured system in terms of gameplay and allows for improved role-playing since players can make truely different characters from themselves since character interaction skills such as diplomacy/intimidation/gather information have been made more open to player effects, plus the various knowledge skills allow for players who don't know everything about a campaign to play a character who does; and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
DeadKeepWalking 02-12-06, 10:44 AM	Books I have access to: 3.5 Core, PH, DMG, MM (mine) 2nd ED PH Another player has the 3.0 Core books, and the DM has read through them, but still prefers 2nd ED. Since I more or less was forced to move to this location, a one horse town, there is only one group that I have been able to find, this group. The last time I built a tank support character, the self-proclaimed party leader/best combatant/tank, was out to get me because I was a threat to his best combatant/tank position, and if I try, can be a very good group leader. He wouldn't support me, and since everyone else was afraid that their tank wasn't going to protect them, they didn't support me either. By some bizzare twist of fate, this character lived long enough to die a slow and painful death at the beginning of the 5th session, i.e. immolination. I wouldn't have died if the party came to look for me after I was abducted by the worst rolls ever. Their excuse was, "We are afraid of the dark," and yet they have a cleric that worships the god of darkness.
Neeek 02-12-06, 11:11 AM	Books I have access to: 3.5 Core, PH, DMG, MM (mine) 2nd ED PH Another player has the 3.0 Core books, and the DM has read through them, but still prefers 2nd ED. Err...2nd ed and 3.0/3.5 aren't very compatable. I'm not sre how you would go about making a 2nd ed character using 3rd ed stuff, actually. In 2nd ed, I'd either make a cleric or a fighter, if you only get the PhB.
Reinhart 02-12-06, 11:16 AM	Then my advice is to get your gaming fix online. If that's the best this town has to offer for gaming, don't take it. Seriously, these guys seem to only give you greif. Only the worst designed characters, (or the unluckiest) have such horrible survival rates, as most DM's should be designing challenges for the characters and not full-proof death-traps. And I doubt all of your characters have been so coincidentally doomed. Since there really aren't many character options in DnD 2nd you can't help but make something that's useful given a couple of chances. Basically what I'm saying is that evidence seems to indicate your home-town situation might be hopeless. Try finding a forum or chat game from this site, or buy Neverwinter Nights and log-on to a Roleplaying server that uses the Players Resource Compendium.
DeadKeepWalking 02-12-06, 12:36 PM	Everywhere I have lived, and every group I have played with, my characters die regularly, even when the DM is going easy on the party. I have a list of 20 characters that have died in 2nd ED campaigns after 2-3 sessions, and I have a list of 31 characters that have died in 3.0 campaigns that have died in 2-3 sessions. Only a handful have lived to see 4 sessions, and only 1 saw a fifth session before dying. No PC I have ever created has lived for more than 5 sessions, even in groups that let me join, and worked to make me a part of their group. After having to make a new character everyweek, the rest of the players stop involving you in the party's long term plans, and start treating you as cannon fodder/a replacement. When the DM goes easy on the party, the dice kill me. When the DM is out to kill someone else in the party, but leave me alive, the dice kill me. When the party is on a quest, the lack of support from the other players kills me. That is why I asked for help creating characters that can stand alone for a few sessions without rest, and the only healing is what my character can provide. But it really doesn't matter anymore, since I have already turned my back on that group.
Judging Eagle 02-13-06, 01:18 PM	I think some questions that you haven't answered; and that no one has thought to ask are: 1. What kind of character do you play? Fighters, rogues, paladins? -Myself... I vary, from semi-support archivist who is just starting to shine in melee combat (shilellagh round 1, brambles round 2 if I need it; then start beating the **** out of everything with my +1 club that does 1d10+ str + 1/caster level (max +10) damage [usually 1d10 + 8 magic damage (+1 from magic, +3 str, +4 from caster levels)]; to a back-line wizard who relys on his light xbow for a long time and throwing out the occasional buff/spell when it's really needed (and usually completely tipping the battle in our favour; Obscuring Mist >> Archers). 2. What's you're play style? -Again, I'm going to use myself as an example: you have to be very flexible in your tactics to be optimized; a wizard or sorcerer who gets fireball or lighting bolt and actually keeps those spells past level 7 (instead of replacing them with better spells and picking up Shadow Evocation [ <3 ] is less flexible and more likely to be useless. The same goes for fighters I play, I pack the biggest armour I can, a greatsword/falchion for DPSing or crits (depending if I can get Keen cast on the falch for easier crits or not) ; a morningstar (or heavy flail if I know there will be tons of skellies) , throwing axes (good start of combat items since you can throw them at further guys or runners plus melee w/ them), the best comp longbow for your str, and some type of tripping weapon (the heavy flail helps; or you can replace it and the morningstar with a regular flail; a halbeard's also good for tripping and can replace your greatsword for slashing/piercing DPS and can help w/ trips). You can always sell off gear you don't use as often, but early on a melee-type lives and dies by their selection of weapons. 3. How well are the game's rules followed? If the DM is a bit shaky on how a certain ability works then the combats might turn out very, VERY differently. -Like last session, we were on a boat going from one city to an other. About a dozen skeletons started to climb on-board and one of the clerics was onboard and rolled his turning check (he was lvl 4 with 16 cha and got a result for 8 hd/monster max) then his turning damage (16 HD worth of undead); the 12 skeletons were 1HD creatures and fell apart since he had double in cleric levels than each of their HD. We had some troubles earlier with UD (in this case a wraith at like lvl .. 2?); the two clerics made their turning checks and thanks to magic weapon and them standing about 60' apart we could keep all our horses, all of us and the wraiths (the origina as well as my own character's lackey who got killed and became a wraith to attack us) went down. In both cases, if the DM knew how turning undead worked both would have been a bit different; the first easier since he sent essentially 2 CR 5 monsters after 2x ECL 5 NPCs and 4x ECL 2 PCs that when they kill a target an other Wraith shows up (we were very lucky, if we had to face 3 we would have all died imo); the second encounter would have been a bit more than.. a skeleton slashing a half-elf sailor and then all 12 getting broken by the 4th lvl cleric.
Gerdreg 02-13-06, 02:06 PM	I was in a similar situation before. I attributed my failures to survive to (what I percieved was the problem anyway) the fact that I was trying to play an iconic role, "the tank", while the rest of the group was playing self-sufficient "5th man" types. I still wanted to play a tank-type, but I wanted the ability to self-buff, heal, and escape when needed, just like the others in the group could. My solution to your problem won't cost you a dime. Play a Psychic Warrior (found here http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/PsionicClasses.rtf ) and take psionic feats (found here http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/PsionicFeats.rtf ). I think Psychic Warrior will give you the extra survivability you are looking for (in the way of buffs, heals, and mobility). Also, for optimization purposes, take a look at the Psychic Weaponmaster (found here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040827d ). It has to be one of the strongest PrCs in the game as it is essentially the Kensai and Weapon Master rolled into one with full BAB and half manifester progression. I hope this helps you the way it did me. [edit] If you happend to look at the PrC before taking a look at the base class, don't panic, a Human Psychic Warrior 7 will easily meet the requirements with a feat to spare. Also, if you wanna further optimize your character, the Metamorphosis (Expanded Knowledge feat) power in conjunction with the Metamorphic Transfer feat will allow you perform some of the same tricks you see in Master of Many Forms and Master Transmogrifist threads. Powers (and the rest of the SRD) can be found here http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 .
carnivore 02-13-06, 04:22 PM	for ideas on 2nd Edition games......try this: Githyanki Necromancer...with the Witch kit....advantages...progresses as a Wizard and Psion while still being single classed...for the magic item you get for free at 1st lvl....Ring of Invisibility Human Wizard of Nimbral..with the Witch Kit ...as above Human Wizard/Cleric..specialty priest of Thoth(allows humans to multiclass Wiz/cleric) Human Specialty Priest of Horus Re....like a Chaotic Good Paladin with Full Cleric spells hope these help.... also you might try this: 1/2 Dragon(Blue) Svirfneblin Ranger with the Seeker Kit...lots of fun
carnivore 02-13-06, 04:23 PM	opps i forgot...Core only :embarrass sorry :D
UMiskatonic 02-13-06, 05:12 PM	Sure. Make a halfling rogue who is focused on hiding. When something happens, hide. When something bad happens, run away. It's not the character, its the style of play which is killing you. I have a player in my games who has the same problem. He loves to go for it, and try to get that heroic moment. Often, it kills him. System doesn't matter. Character doesn't matter. It's not as glorious to slowly climb down the knotted rope, and up the other side, but leaping across the chasm has some consequences when you don't make it. You could also join the RPGA. They have thousands of players, and regularly scheduled games.