Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kolo 02-05-04, 09:08 AM	This is going to be an extremely unusual request, so bear with me here. My group is, to say the least, lacking in power. This isn't so bad a thing, but I tend to make rather powerful characters, and they stand out like sore thumbs. So, in an effort to fit in with the rest while simultaneously playing a fun and powerful character, I have decided to min-max a wizard- up to a point. We're playing a 20-level game, and my latest character (a fighter type) died a noble death, and I've decided to let him rest in peace. My new creation is a wizard with a focus on Necromancy, but with the following restrictions; 1). Core WotC D&D Only classes and PrC's (Including the Splatbooks). no red wizard or ur-priest. Also, Mystic Theurge is out. (true necromancer is allowed, but not quite useful.) 2). No specializing. 3). the Lich template (found on the WotC website) must be included in the build. 4). Must have more Wizard than Cleric levels (if any) by level 20. Can it be done? With these restrictions, is it possible to make a playably powerful character? I leave the question in the air; let's see how much can be squeezed out. What say you, veterans of the CO boards?
Funny Slaughter 02-05-04, 11:11 AM	:rofl: :heehee :bored: oh, btw, to answer your question: yep, can be done :rolleyes: gs Funny
Kolo 02-05-04, 11:25 AM	Yes, I can see why your name is funny slaughter...:rofl: seriously though; I really need some input, I don't do this sort of thing a lot. We can assume 32-point buy on stats, and all races from PhB and FRCS are allowed, just to put some stuff in I totally forgot about :embarrass
LordShade 02-05-04, 11:27 AM	Why don't you do a little brainstorming yourself, post a build, and let us critique it? (rather than asking us to do all the work)
Laelenie 02-05-04, 11:34 AM	lich wizard 16. nuff said.
Kolo 02-05-04, 11:38 AM	Mostly because those self-imposed restrictions make me break down and cry...:( I do have one theoretical build going, but I wonder as to just how efficient it is. Strongheart Halfling LE wizard16/lich4 wiz1 Spell Focus- Necromancy, Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll wiz2 wiz3 Eschew Materials wiz4 wiz5 Empower Spell wiz6 Spell Penetration wiz7 wiz8 wiz9 Chain Spell wiz10 Craft Wondrous Item wiz11 Lich1 Wiz12 Spell Focus- Conjuration Lich 2 Wiz13 Lich 3 wiz14 Wiz15 Quicken Spell, Greater Spell Penetration Wiz16 Lich4 I took halfling for the size bonus to AC and for the entertainment factor of a pint-sized lich. Imp. Initiative is mostly because I hate being the last to go in a round, and Eschew/Quicken are in there both for being useful and because we plan to go epic later. Craft Wondrous Item is there both for the Template and for some other crafting benefits. This is all I've got and I've got no idea where to go from here.
baoban sith 02-05-04, 11:45 AM	Um, do the standard stuff, especially if splat books are allowed. A level of pale master, possibly archmage, possibly loremaster, or any number of PrC's. Look for core only builds and tweak them slightly.
Snow Savant 02-05-04, 12:16 PM	If you want to try something different with your Halfling Lich Necromancer, try this route.... **** Make sure that Halfling is as small as possible (per the weight/height charts for Halflings). Get the Improved Familiar or Leadership feat. You want a familiar/cohort who has crazy-high Hide/Move Silently skills and is capable of flying (and Invisibility is possible). Give him nice, cheap anti-detection magic items to boot (Amulet of Proof Against Detection & Location, etc.) Next, get SpFocus: Necromancy, GSF: Necro, SpellPenetration, & GSP. Also get Heighten Spell. Your shtick will be using Heightened Magic Jar spells with crazy-high DC's for maximum efficiency. Your Familiar/Cohort will be responsible for carting around your undead & lifeless carcass (which is super-tiny anyway) in an extra-dimensional magical item of holding while completely in undetectable stealth mode. Levels in Shadow Adept are very helpful here, as they add Spell Power to your Necromancy spells. The Eschew Materials and Still Spell feats are helpful for your other spells, especially if you are Jarring into weird-ass forms that prohibit normal somatic component casting. Have your other spellcaster in the group be ready to Dispel Magic on any Circles of Protection that opposing spellcasters may try to throw into the mix. **** This character archetype is pretty strong and can be a lot of fun (Magic Jarring is a hoot). Magic Jar is strong offensively, defensively (it's hard to die with this up & running), sows an immense amount of dischord in the enemy, and makes you the best scout in the game (hey, you are *in* the enemy's body!). And it works well with a tiny body (i.e. Halfling) that your party or Familiar is obligated to cart around. If you Jar with cunning and subtlety, the enemy will not know or understand that their ranks are being Jarred, and will not know how to countermeasure it. It's one of the most versatile, frightening, and effective spells in the game. XO, Snow :cloud9:
nihility 02-05-04, 12:42 PM	1). Core WotC D&D Only classes and PrC's (Including the Splatbooks) So...at what point does the "no useful material" bit come in? Because, as far as I see, these are not difficult conditions to minmax in at all. I'd say the restrictions aren't even really that meaningful.
Kolo 02-05-04, 12:50 PM	Originally posted by nihility So...at what point does the "no useful material" bit come in? Because, as far as I see, these are not difficult conditions to minmax in at all. I'd say the restrictions aren't even really that meaningful. ...you DID read the rest, right? All the really good necromancer classes are forbidden, and I can't specialize in Necromancy, but still have to focus on that school. Add to that the loss of 4 caster levels to the lich template and you have a pretty damn hefty restriction. At least in my opinion. Snow Savant; That is so demented that it might actually be exactly what I'll go for. I would still like more opinions, but you got a strong case going there.:D
Caelic 02-05-04, 06:27 PM	Err...I have to go with the "What's the problem?" crowd, here. "No useful material" and "the GM won't let me use my favorite Ur Priest/Nar Demonbinder combo!" are two totally different things.
LordShade 02-05-04, 06:48 PM	Hmm. I think there is still some stuff you can work with. 1. Pale Master - a 1-level dip costs you a feat, but gets you a caster level and some natural armor. The best thing is that it is a necro-themed PrC. 2. You still have access to Mage of the Arcane Order, which is one of my favorite PrCs flavor-wise. It can easily be adapted to be a guild of necromancers - ask your DM to let you make some minor changes to the class to reflect this flavor. I'd go Wiz5/MotAO10/Pale Master1/Lich.
PhaedrusXY 02-05-04, 07:51 PM	I designed a character similar to what Snow is talking about, but as a cleric instead of a wizard. But she brought up something interesting. What happens to a lich if he is out of range of the receptacle when the spell Magic Jar ends? Normally the caster is slain, but that is meaningless to a lich, since he normally just reforms at his phylactery anyway. So would you have absolutely nothing to lose by using Magic Jar as a lich? You get a free body, and it doesn't matter if you get Dispelled, Disjoined, Exorcised, or whatever? You wouldn't even NEED to keep your original body nearby, OR the receptacle for the spell, if this is the case. This has incredible possibilities... Edit: Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=150894&highlight=possessor) is the link to the cleric.
catharz 02-06-04, 02:17 AM	Leadership and mindbender would be nice. It ain't powerful, but a Wizard 6/Mindbender 1/Lord of the dead (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) 5/whatever, with both Leadership and Undead leadership, could be a lot of fun.
Kolo 02-06-04, 07:18 AM	Okay, first of all; thanks guys. Appreciated and welcomed. Second, I really find myself liking Snow's idea, especially with Phaedrus' point that the lich probably won't die anyway. Better bring it up with my DM first, but I find I'm liking where this leads... Love your cleric, btw :) I'm not sure about the level of Pale Master, since the Lich already gains natural armor +5, although that actually stacks with magic effects- one of the stronger points of the template, IMO. I don't know if it would with Pale Master, though. LordShade; MotAO... Interesting idea... a sort of "bleak academy" version of the PrC just might work wonders. In fact, I kinda like the concept. The only thing to overcome would be the fact that Necromancers in black academies are usually an evil bunch, so the thought of them sharing their spells with you is kinda far fetched... but I like your thinking. Caelic; Building a Powerful Necromancer Lich while also not using ANY of the PrC's associated with it, as well as many of those associated with poewrful wizard builds... yeah, that's restrictive. I normally wouldn't like losing caster levels like this, but hey... Catharz; one lvl dip into mindbender is always cool... especially if combined with the Magic Jar spell... talk about hearing voices in your head. daaamn... :devil:
SoulLord 02-06-04, 04:48 PM	just to use a different approach to it how about a lich who specializes in beating their oponents hand to hand fighter 1 wizard 5 eldritch knight 10 lich 4 8th level wizard spells bab 13 feats: two weapon fighting improved two weapon fighting improved initiative quicken spell energy substitution weapon finesse (for all the touch attacks focus only on dex and int) also take advantage of the template using cold spells and the like cold fireball centered on you for example oughta damage more your foes than you. SoulLord
Sisyfos 02-09-04, 10:36 AM	Originally posted by Snow Savant If you want to try something different with your Halfling Lich Necromancer, try this route.... **** Make sure that Halfling is as small as possible (per the weight/height charts for Halflings). Get the Improved Familiar or Leadership feat. You want a familiar/cohort who has crazy-high Hide/Move Silently skills and is capable of flying (and Invisibility is possible). Give him nice, cheap anti-detection magic items to boot (Amulet of Proof Against Detection & Location, etc.) Finally I see a way to actually make magic jarring work. I've always found suicidal the idea of my own body lying in death like state at max 200 feet from the enemies. Especially when I need to try to posses people and success is not guaranteed. Now... this is different. I like it. Thanks Snow.