Post/Author/DateTime	Post
epchristi 12-11-03, 07:26 PM	So many people say the cleric melee builds are always better than a fighter. I want to challenge that assumption. 3.5e rules. (Splat books and other books are allowed.. including the dreaded persistent feat. ;) ) Your "Fighter" type can be any mix of classes and prc's you want, as long as they don't have cleric in them. (Ranger is okay, and so is Paladin) Your "Cleric" type can be any spellcasting mix of prc's.. like Sacred Exorsist, Holy Liberator, Divine Disciple, Contemplative, but must have the full levels of divine spell casting. (You can't dip into templar, fighter or Paladin for this challenge.) Let's see which "PC" can do the most average damage in a 5 round fight or a 15 round fight, and take the least amount of damage on average in the fight. (So, things like Spring Attack, ridge by, spirited charge, etc... are all allowed, and play into the fight... ) The "Cleric" is allowed to persist all the spells he can at 10th level. (Divine Favor, Bless being the only ones I see as being useful.) Then, let the battle begin! :fight!: Please list the feats, average hp, AC's, etc. for the build. One last caveat. No magic items allowed. List attack style and show the "encounter" if you can. (Because a 10th level cleric, if he is going to use Divine Power, Righteous Might, etc.. needs to spend rounds spell casting to get there first.) I predict the winner in 5 rounds is the fighter-type builds. I predict the winner in a 15 round fight is also the fighter-type build.
A Man In Black 12-11-03, 07:28 PM	It's never really been about sheer damage. Fighters could always do that. It's just that a cleric is going to be able to do more than enough damage, will have better defense, and can also do the things exclusive to high-level magic, like dealing with invisible foes, scrying, mobility, etc.
epchristi 12-11-03, 07:35 PM	Let's see about it. I don't see it. I think a Cavalier on a horse is very hard for a Cleric to deal with. Show me the better defenses and what the Cleric will do about it. I see all the general "cleric is better" comments.. or "Cleric does fighter better than fighter".. I want to see how. I don't have a book with me, but a Pal/Cavalier with spirited charge, ride by, etc.. should be able to blast through the cleric with his lance everytime, and never get hit. The cleric can cast spells back at him, but that's the point.. he isn't doing melee better than the fighter. Stick the cleric on the horse.. and show the feat progression for him to get there.. and still have all his stuff. The divine favor persisted will be an asset, but it's the only real benefit .. and it's just +3/+3.. Greater Weapon specialization will do that for a lance just fine. +2/+4... with better BAB for the fighter. Then.. divine power the cleric.. great.. he just wasted a round. Granted, it gave him +3 to his str and to hit. In all of this, I might be wrong. I just want it to be "sort of proved in more detail to me." I play a cleric.. and our DM must be very skilled, or I "not so much", but our fighter-archer does more damage on average per round than I can do in melee. I have a higher AC, but when fighting a dragon, it doesn't mean much. And when fighting the spell users, it doesn't mean much either. Plus, the cleric is the slowest in the bunch.. until I bought mithral plate.. but I still can't keep up with the fighter and paladin (on his horse). I just want to see more "Facts" behind the assertions. I don't think a cleric can do "fighter" better than a "fighter". Especially if we start throwing sunder and other fun feats in there.
goblinhero 12-11-03, 07:37 PM	I don't think it should be a matter of largest average damage because the cleric can win that contest hands down. imo, I think a fighter can compete only because the choices of feats he has and the choices of tactics available through those feats. while, the buffed cleric is only smashing and bashing through the hp's to win. it might take the fighter a little longer to beat the cleric since he can't, on average, do as much as the buffed cleric but I believe it can be done. couple more points, can the cleric use any other spells at his disposal? or is he stuck to the "buff" spells? equipment, do we get standard for 10th level characters?
The Hanged Man 12-11-03, 07:51 PM	You need to set this up better. Standard point buy? 32 point? Core +WotC splatbooks? Or any splatbooks (which is inane?) Standard starting gold? XP for creating magic items?
Dirichlet 12-11-03, 08:20 PM	And why 10th level? The standard around here is 20.
Andreas0815 12-11-03, 08:22 PM	Am i allowed to write a symbol of sleep on my shield before combat? :smirk:
Andreas0815 12-11-03, 08:25 PM	Hmmkay, by tomorrow i think i can post a riding bowshooting Cleric that kicks your fighers ass. :)
Lago AM3P 12-11-03, 09:31 PM	You want a fighter-type to take on a high-level cleric in melee? Well... okay. I guess I'll go with Runescarred Berserker. Just throw up an antimagic field (preferably with a rod of quickening) and start grappling, I guess. Your higher BAB and strength (along with feats and class abilities, if you got 'em), will win the day. Or, you could just check out my halberd core-classes fighter of doom. I'll have to retool him to stick in PrCs and use the spiked chain instead, but no melee cleric is getting through that.
littlesaltz 12-11-03, 10:16 PM	The cleric can cast spells back at him, but that's the point.. he isn't doing melee better than the fighter Cool, except that if the cleric is equal or slightly less than a fighter in melee and can still cast those spells... It's not so much of a problem with actual fighting ability; it's more about what you can do when the fight is over/hasn't started.
Otto the Bugbear 12-11-03, 10:23 PM	Originally posted by Dirichlet And why 10th level? The standard around here is 20. I'm not sure completely of the reason, but I can think of a few. Once you get into the 9th level spells things get a little out of control. 16th would be a better one to use to remove the miracle element. 10th level sets it up to limit the persistent feat that gets so much attention. Limiting it to 8th would be too obviously chosen to eliminate persistent spell, but 10th at least allows 2 (or more) persistent 1st level spells, giving us the "you can use persistent spell" comment. The higher the level, the easier it is for a melee cleric to out damage a fighter-type build. At lower levels, and in shorter fights, a fighter has a better chance to out-melee a cleric. As the level bar rises, the cleric ends up being dealing more damage as long as his buffs are intact. I'm sure there may be some more reasons, but I'm done exploring it for now. I don't want this to sound like I'm opposed to this limit, just stating some observations. The level limit is entirely up to the originator of the challenge, thus the level he chooses is as good as any other. Now, about the challenge, there is going to have to be a few more rules set down. Of course you can ignore any part of this, but this is taken directly from another contest (Iku Rex's) and works great: 32 point buy, PHB races only, WotC books only, 10th leve exactly (no spending XP on self created items, or spells that require XP.) First, eliminate the "no magic item" rule. There is no real advantage to eliminating it, and in fact will hurt the fighter more thanks to greater magic weapon and magic vestment. At 10th level, the recommended wealth is 49000 gold, not breaking by any means. I'd still add a "not more than half can be used on a single magic item" to get rid of Karma Bead, but at 25800 a standard strand of prayer beads is a bit expensive for a 10th level character. Each contestant will fight a Blue Slaad, with the subtypes removed. Spells or effects (such as potions for fighters) that last more than 15 minutes will be applied before the fight. The Blue Slaad has an infinite number of hit points. When the fight is over, the total damage dealt will determine how well a character has done. This is a melee only contest. No spell-like abilities from the Slaad, and no targeted spells will work on it. As far as putting submitted clerics v. submitted fighters, that's a bad idea. That'll just hold up the contest and provide some problems with tactics not being used as a person might have invisioned. Anyway, it's just a thought. Cheers Otto :)
Otto the Bugbear 12-11-03, 10:36 PM	Originally posted by Lago AM3P You want a fighter-type to take on a high-level cleric in melee? Well... okay. I guess I'll go with Runescarred Berserker. Just throw up an antimagic field (preferably with a rod of quickening) and start grappling, I guess. No, I'm pretty sure he wants a 10th level fighter type to go up against a 10th level cleric type. No Anitmagic Field for anybody, looks like. Cheers Otto :)
catharz 12-11-03, 10:42 PM	Upping the character level would be nice for the Cavalier builds. With a Valorous Wrathful healing lance and Unstoppable charge, it just keeps going and going and going and going (well, for five rounds). At lower levels, you give a cleric a Varlorous lance, Spirited charge, and a mount (think Hospitaller), they just pull out the spikes and its game over.
epchristi 12-11-03, 11:49 PM	My bad.. I was out. Standard 32 point buy. (Sorry, sort of new to this.) Standard gold.. only WoTC splat books. Races from the phb. I pick 10th level, simply because it was an "in-stage" level. 20th seems to be unatainable unless you start at higher levels. I know 20th is the standard, too, but I want to show a point that isn't as easily illustrated at 20th level. All cleric spells are allowed, as they would be in the rules as described. I don't have a book here, but there are some points made in the rules about how the symbols can be used. (per the thought of casting it on your shield.) --- check otto's rules .. this was more conversation point. --- My point is to bebuff the fact that Cleric's do melee better than a Fighter. If the cleric starts casting all sorts of other spells, he's not really being a fighter, which help makes my point. I am not trying to say a fighter is better or a cleric is better, only that a fighter does a fighter better than a cleric.. I would prefer to see no magic items at all in the discussion, but perhaps that's impossible. The reason is that a fighter gets more feats, and they can actually use them to help create their weapons and armor, etc.. so .. if that has to be a part of it.. good. Okay.. read it all. Per Otto's suggestion.. to reclarify: 32 point buy, PHB races only, WotC books only, 10th leve exactly (no spending XP on self created items, or spells that require XP.) First, eliminate the "no magic item" rule. There is no real advantage to eliminating it, and in fact will hurt the fighter more thanks to greater magic weapon and magic vestment. At 10th level, the recommended wealth is 49000 gold, not breaking by any means. I'd still add a "not more than half can be used on a single magic item" to get rid of Karma Bead, but at 25800 a standard strand of prayer beads is a bit expensive for a 10th level character. Each contestant will fight a Blue Slaad, with the subtypes removed. Spells or effects (such as potions for fighters) that last more than 15 minutes will be applied before the fight. The Blue Slaad has an infinite number of hit points. When the fight is over, the total damage dealt will determine how well a character has done. This is a melee only contest. No spell-like abilities from the Slaad, and no targeted spells will work on it. As far as putting submitted clerics v. submitted fighters, that's a bad idea. That'll just hold up the contest and provide some problems with tactics not being used as a person might have invisioned.
Zoloft 12-12-03, 12:11 AM	What's the Slaad's ac? Hits should be determined by an average roll (10), or %chance compared to total number of attacks made in the 5 rounds.
Funny Slaughter 12-12-03, 04:46 AM	melee only? otherwise i would say its pretty easy for an archer cleric with travel-domain: cast fly and rain arrows, that should win in the "less damage input" and can be pretty decent in "most damage output" :) (blue slaads cant fly, hu?) could someone please post the few important statistics of a blue slaad? i have my 3.5MM with my DM and only a 3.0 here :( and its not in the SRD :( gs Funny
catharz 12-12-03, 06:01 AM	Cleric challanger: Human Cleric 5/Hospitaller 5 Feats~ Human:Mounted combat, 1st:Ride-by, 3rd:Spirited charge, Hospitaller:Power attack, 6th:Iron will, 9th:Reserves of Strength. EQ: Valorous +1 Bronzewood Lance with Spikes and Greater magic weapon (Reserves of strength to +3 on both), Full plate /w Magic vestiment, Heavy shield with Magic vestiment. If possible change to Half-minotaur Human Cleric 5/Hospitaller 4. Wow, I'm really tired. I'll do the rest later today after I get some sleep.
Funny Slaughter 12-12-03, 09:13 AM	(since i have no 3.5 MM atm i am using stats from the 3.0 blue slaad) mountain orc cleric 10th stats: (after spells) [modifier after spells] str 20(26) [+8] dex 8 [-1] con 8 (unimportant here) [-1] int 6 [-2] wis 14 (18) [+4] cha 14 (18) [+4] domains (without any god...) darkness balance spells available/used (spell enhancement is not counted for bonus spells) 1 5+1 / 0 2 5+1 / 3+1 3 3+1 /3 4 3+1 /3+1 5 2+1 /2 2nd extended wieldskill (maul proficiency) 2nd extended wieldskill (tower shield proficiency) 2nd darkness (100min) 2nd extended obscuring mist (20% concealment 5ft, 50% >5ft) (20min) 3rd extended aid +1 morale attack + HP 1d8+10 (20min) 3rd weapon of impact (keen) (100min) 3rd spikes (10hours) +2 enhancement, +10 damage 4th extended eagles splendor +4 cha (20min) 4th extended bulls strength +4 str (20min) 4th armor of darkness (100min) +5 AC deflection, 60ft darkvision 4th extended enlarge person +2 str, -2 dex, -1 AC. Size large (20min) [edited] 5th persistant divine favor: +3 luck to damage and attack (1 day) 5th extended blindsight (20min) equipment: (i am a bit lazy here) fullplate +2 AC+10: 5650gp shield+1 animated large tower shield AC+5 9330gp huge maul +1 valorous slaad bane 18330gp boots of speed 12000gp 3690 left AC: 10 + 10 armor + 5 shield + 5 deflection -1 size +4 wis +1 dex= 32 (33 haste) (slaad hits with 20) Attack: +7/+2 BAB +8 str +2 enhancement +3 luck +1 morale -1 size = +20/+15 (+21/+21/+16 haste) Damage: 2d8 +3 luck +10 spikes +4 enhancement +4 (cha) +12 (str) +2d6 (bane)= 2d8+2d6+33 19-20/x3 crit (6d8+2d6+99) feats: power attack divine might extend spell persistant spell (quite a waste) average damage: 47 crit: 132 chance for crit: 0,1*0,95(0,9 | 3rd attack) = 0,095 (0,09) average damage including crits: 58 double damage on charge due to valorous (first round only): normal 4d8+2d6+66 : average 88 crit: 8d8+2d6+132 [edit x3 doubled is x4] average damage including crits: 99 chance to hit: 0,95 (charge) 0,95/0,95/0,9 (full attack) damage output including to-hit: normal: 55 (52 on 3rd attack) charge: 99 total damage output round / damage 1 99 2-5(10) 162 each in 5 rounds: 747 points in 10 rounds: 1557 (assuming that you start min 10ft away from opponent and maximum 120ft) total damage suffered 4 rakes +11, 2d6+4, average 10 1 bite +9, 2d8+2, average 10 total attacks of the slaad: 20 rakes, 5 bites (5 rounds) [doubled in 10...] chance to hit: 0,05 (natural 20) * 0,8 (20% concealment) = 0,04 total damage: 20*10*0,04 + 5*10*0,04 = 10 [20] [edit] the slaad can crit, of course. chance is 0,0025*10*25=0,625 additional points of damage in 5 rounds or 1,25 in 10. thx to neonsamurai to figuring this bad flaw! damage ratio (output to input) 74,7:1 (5 rounds) 77,85:1 (10 rounds) so much to my quickshot. i am looking forward to the non-cleric character that beats this. i think one can eventually optimize certain things a bit more but for me its enough ;) [edited] forgot to extend enlarge person. and forgot to figure the +2 str in. some more damage now gs Funny
Laelenie 12-12-03, 10:12 AM	sure funny has a lot of time...
epchristi 12-12-03, 11:04 AM	Actually.. funny is just good at this stuff. :) He posts a lot around here. ;) That said, your extended spells on spikes only work 50% of the time.. that needs to go into the figure. I say this because you could encounter the slaad when they are not in effect. (That's why I didn't really say extended would count, but I think it's fair to consider, but the overall damage needs to be reduced by the probability of you having them in effect.) Also, all the enhancements given by the the other temporary (20 min) spells need to be factored by 0.0139.. because again, no guarantee you will encounter the slaad while in effect. Or you can say you cast them in the encounter, but then you have 10 rounds of spellcasting and lose by default. ;)
Neonsamurai 12-12-03, 11:21 AM	Originally posted by epchristi [SNIP] Spells or effects (such as potions for fighters) that last more than 15 minutes will be applied before the fight. [SNIP] Thus, Funny's build is perfectly legal. Changing the rules during the contest is bad for your Juju so don't do it ;)
epchristi 12-12-03, 11:24 AM	Yup.. you are right. I cut and paste otto's rules as they seemed good last night. Good call. Not what I was working to point out, but it does count. (When can cleric's use tower shields without taking a feat in 3.5?) Even though I also want to point out, that after this 20 min, the cleric is worthless because most of the spells are spent. If he encounters the second blue slaad 20 minutes later, it's not near as impressive. :) (I wish I would have read the rules more closely before pasting the rules. 30 minutes before hand would have made my point!) ;) Funny.. where does "Wieldskill" come from? (which book?) Where does the spell "Weapon of impact come from? Where does the spell "Blindsight" come from? Another novice question. Does obscurring mist effect the cleric's vision too? (Perhaps better for the rules board.. but it was listed as a spell in use, and I was curious on the benefit it added in the optimization.)
Otto the Bugbear 12-12-03, 04:53 PM	Originally posted by epchristi Yup.. you are right. I cut and paste otto's rules as they seemed good last night. Good call. Not what I was working to point out, but it does count. (When can cleric's use tower shields without taking a feat in 3.5?) Even though I also want to point out, that after this 20 min, the cleric is worthless because most of the spells are spent. If he encounters the second blue slaad 20 minutes later, it's not near as impressive. :) (I wish I would have read the rules more closely before pasting the rules. 30 minutes before hand would have made my point!) ;) Funny.. where does "Wieldskill" come from? (which book?) Where does the spell "Weapon of impact come from? Where does the spell "Blindsight" come from? Another novice question. Does obscurring mist effect the cleric's vision too? (Perhaps better for the rules board.. but it was listed as a spell in use, and I was curious on the benefit it added in the optimization.) Wieldskill is from either FRCS or from MoF. It gives either a +10 to any skill for the duration, or proficiency with one weapon or one type of armor (light, medium, heavy, or shield) Weapon of Impact is the same as keen, but for bludgeoning; I don't remembe the source. Blindsight comes from a few different sources, with the newest being Underdark I believe. Yes, obscuring mist does affect the cleric's vision and gives him a 20% miss chance. About the preperation. Perhaps do two calculations instead of one. The first is with a prep time 15 minutes before the fight starts. The second is with a prep time 1 hour before the fight starts, just to show how much output a build like Funny's will lose, but how little a fighter-type build will lose. That seems like a good way to show how some things end up being a one fight only trick. I'm working on my submission for later, which should do more than Funny's. :P Oh, and a Blue Slaad is +13 claw/claw and +11 bite, so it'll still need 20 to hit that AC 33. Perhaps the Blue wasn't the best choice; Green or Grey could be a better idea. Cheers Otto :)
toftof 12-12-03, 05:10 PM	weapon of impact: faith and pantheon p27 wieldskill: magic of faerun page 134 blindsight:underdark page 56 blue slaad hd 8D8+32(68) init +2 speed 30ft (6sqr) AC: 20, touch 11, flatfooted 18 base/grapple:+8/+18 attack:claw+13 melee 2D6+6 full attack: 4 claws +13 (2d6+6) and bite +11 (2d8+13 plus disease) space/reach 10ft/10ft fast healing 5, immune to sonic, resistance cold,acid,electricity,fire 5 fort+10,ref+8,will+4 st 23,dex 15,con 19,int 6, wis 6,cha10 feat dodge, mobility, multiattack spell like: at will holdperson (dC13) passwall,telekinesis(dc15), 1/day chaos hammer(dc14), caster lvl 8 save charisma based slaad fever(su) supernatural disease -bite, fortitude dc18 incub 1 day dam 1d3 dex, 1d3cha, save con based summon slaad: once a day 40%chnace summon another blue slaad hope this help, i love this thread....
epchristi 12-12-03, 05:12 PM	If everyone agrees, I would like to do what Otto suggests, and yet still go ahead and show how powerful cleric spells "can" be for a given fight. So.. Funny, you gave us the "15" minute prep battle. Would you be willing to run your stats again with a "spells with duration of 1 hour or more" included? That's really more what I am trying to see.. I think the buffed cleric is very powerful, but only for single battles and under the right circumstances. But this would work well to show the differences between the two, if we used both durations. Thanks Otto for the info too! I am looking forward to fighter-type builds.
Dirichlet 12-12-03, 05:33 PM	Originally posted by epchristi If everyone agrees, I would like to do what Otto suggests, and yet still go ahead and show how powerful cleric spells "can" be for a given fight. So.. Funny, you gave us the "15" minute prep battle. Would you be willing to run your stats again with a "spells with duration of 1 hour or more" included? That's really more what I am trying to see.. I think the buffed cleric is very powerful, but only for single battles and under the right circumstances. But this would work well to show the differences between the two, if we used both durations. Thanks Otto for the info too! I am looking forward to fighter-type builds. Yeah, it sounds to me you have a (false) point to "prove" and you are going to keep tweaking the "rules" until it is "proven".
epchristi 12-12-03, 05:47 PM	No.. it's not a false point. My point was that a cleric doesn't do fighter as well as fighter. Had I caught the 15 minute duration, I would have changed it to 30. Because the point is, that a cleric at 10th level can't be 100% buffed for each encounter. That's the whole point. To say they can be a fighter as well as a fighter, means they should be able to do it for each encounter during the day. That's really all I was trying to show in the first place. A completely buffed cleric is a incredible, and for that moment in time does a great deal of damage. But, how lucky can you be to be fully buffed for each battle. Unless your DM says, hey, a battle is coming in 10 rounds .... you can't be 100% ready. I actually play a cleric, and everyone says how great they are. I can't think of one instance that I have been able to get "fully buffed" for an encounter. A fighter, however, is always "buffed" per say. Their skills don't diminish after 20 minutes.. and that's the whole point. A fighter is a better fighter than a cleric. Though a tad off-topic, I could contrive a situation where a rogue would win everytime to. A blue slad walks down a dark alley.. who will win in one round. The rogue or cleric? A 10th level rogue who hits on a sneak attack will.. The only reason I avoided 20th level.. is because things get silly at that point. Why would a 20th level cleric waste a 9th level spell on persistent righteous might. Miracle is a far more versatile spell for them to memorize. It's not reasonable really to walk around as a 9 ft giant all day either. People in town might start to notice. ;) That's why I started the thread. I play a cleric. I want to see what the fighter-types who know the rules better than I do, can do with it. The two durations make sense. It will show if completely buffed what a cleric is able to do.. and without what a cleric can do. It's fair, hasn't changed the rules. We might walk out saying the cleric is best in both scenarious or the fighter is.. or they split. I actually don't know how it will turn out, but I do want to point out the fact the cleric is only good for a duration. Our DM never gives us one battle a day... which means the "all buffed" scenario isn't really all that likely to occur in a real situation. Sure, in a contrived situation.. one that I inadvertantly made, Funny did a great job! Far better than I do with my cleric. It's not changing the rules to make him "lose".. its showing the best of times, and the normal times for both classes. That's all. If that offends people or they think it's contriving a situation that I "win".. I haven't posted a build. I don't think I am trying to "win" anything. I want to see in a general situation, which PC does "fighter" better. I believe it's the fighter.. only because I play the cleric and see a fighter in the group on average, throughout a "mythical" day.. do more damage in melee. (and my cleric is forced to be a melee counterpart.. because we have a wizard and sorcerer and archer-types in the rest of the party.) I am sorry, too, if this was a novice post. I know it is.. because I am a novice. :)
Zoloft 12-12-03, 08:02 PM	1+ hour L10 cleric: Strength and Nobility domains Str 18 (20 for L10) +4 for belt = 24 Wis 18 Buffs: Persistent Divine Favor +3 (L5 domain spell) Persistent Bless Extended Spikes (20 hours) Extended GMW +3 (20 Hours) Extended Weapon of Impact (3 hours,20 minutes) Gear: +1 Club of Speed (32k) +4 Belt of Strength (16k) 1k left over Feats: Extend, Persistent, Quicken, Weapon Focus, Spell focus Necromancy BAB: +6/+1 Modified: +21/+21/+16 Chance to hit ac20 in %: 100,100,80 avg % hit of 3 rolls=%93.33 Damage: 1d6+7+10+3+1+3=27.5 avg .9333*27.5=25.66 avg damage per attack before crits Crit range 17-20=20% threat per atack. 20% of 25.66=5.13 chance of successful crit after threat (avg of all 3 attack rolls) =93.33% 93.3% of 5.13=4.79 25.66+4.79=30.45 avg damage per attack, adjusted for misses and crits Strength domain adds 10 damage on first round 2 quickened Inflict light wounds adds 15 damage, adjusted for saves 30.45*3 (attacks per round)*X number of rounds = 5 rounds = 481 10 rounds = 938 15 rounds = 1395 theres your result, statistically adjusted for average rolls and crits. this is a simple build, made to satisfy the pre-combat buff critics make a fighter to beat this first and we can get fancy later... Oh yeah, and slay living does infinite damage. Fighters dont get that. That's why my clerics are primarily spellcasters with hth as backup only.
epchristi 12-12-03, 08:16 PM	The quickened light wounds would have to have a touch attack right? Then if that hits, they would get a save.. And please don't get mad, because I don't know, but does that work as a free action? :confused: Nice build.. I hope someone comes up with a fighter build. ;)
Zoloft 12-12-03, 08:34 PM	no worries, Quickened spells are a free action, yes. And its a Touch attack at my highest bonus (+20) vs his touch ac (11) so I cant miss. It has a Will save for 1/2 damage Blue has Will +4 vs my DC 17, so he has a %35 chance of saving. .35 * .50 = %17.5 so after saves I do %82.5 avg damage with Inflict light wounds 1d8+5=9.5 dmg*2=19*.825=15.675 rounded down I did 15 dmg on 2 inflicts. Not very efficient for two 5th level spells but they were free actions and I cant beat 90 dmg/round with spells only at this character level anyway. And if I had done Greater spell focus Necro and popped him with 3 Slay living in the first 3 rounds instead, my total damage would have dropped by 210 but he would have a %90 chance (roughly) of taking infinite damage (death). hmm, %90 of infinity... equals infinity. heh.
epchristi 12-12-03, 09:02 PM	A natural roll of 1 always misses. ;) It doesn't really affect the damage all that much however. :) See.. I agree that slay living is a better use.. which was somewhat why I felt a fighter would best the cleric, even a buffed cleric.. I might be quite wrong.
Otto the Bugbear 12-12-03, 09:14 PM	A few things about Funny's build that may need clarification. First is the Slaad bane ability. It wasn't said before, but taking items specifically for the foe at hand shouldn't be allowed. That's kinda what I was getting at for the "no sub-types" clause. No fault of yours, I should have been more specific. Wisdom 14 means you won't be getting any 5th level spells. If the +4 from owl's wisdom applies while gaining spells, it probably won't be there when the spells are going to be used. No gaurantee the battle will take place within 20 minutes of gaining spells. Cheers Otto :)
Zoloft 12-12-03, 09:34 PM	Well, the fact that a cleric has good spells is not evidentiary that a ftr would be better at anything; but we shall see what builds others come up with. Most high damage ftr builds I see involve fancy crit math (charging, etc). Which is ok but useless vs critters that are crit immune. But with only 5 buff spells I make one hell of a melee character anyway. Lets look at something more like what I would do in a campaign game: Greater spell focus Necro, Craft wondrous, extend, persistent, spellcasting prodigy Str 16+6 Wis 18+2+6 (+2 for spells) Belt of Str +6 Periapt of Wis +6 (self made @16keach) 17k left Same buffs minus Persistent Bless damage in melee becomes "only" about 45 per round with my two attacks, +18/+13 but slay living has a DC of 28 and Blue has only a 10% chance of surviving each one, still takes avg 20 dmg each if he lives and I can cast it 4 times 5 round damage melee only: 225 5 round damage casting only: between 100 and dead, about 2.5% chance of not dead result Granted my first build was the fight better than a ftr build, but this one is no slouch as a practical character who can tank with the best of em.
Otto the Bugbear 12-12-03, 09:37 PM	Okay, I've got an entry for the cleric side. I've shown both the 15 minutes before version and the 1 hour before version. Damage is pretty respectable. I'll work on a melee build starting tomorrow morning, but I'm not too hopeful of beating these numbers. :trumpets blare: 15 minutes before the fight. Cleric 8 / Divine Disciple 2 Domains: Balance, War, Darkness Mountain Orc Str: 16 (10 pts.) +4 race +8 size +15 enhancement = 43 (+16) Dex: 8 (0 pts.) –2 size Con: 8 (0 pts.) +4 size Int: 14 (6 pts.) +4 enhancement = 18 (+4) Wis: 16 (10 pts.) +2 enhancement = 18 (+4) Cha: 14 (6 pts.) +4 enhancement = 18 (+4) Spells: 6/4+1+1/4+1+1/3+1+1/3+1+1/2+1 3rd – Girallon’s Blessing 3 extra sets of arms for being large (100 min) 3rd – Spikes (10 hours) 3rd – Curse of the Brute (10 rounds) 3rd – Extended Eagle’s Splendor (20 min) 3rd – Extended Fox’s Cunning (20 min) 4th domain – Armor of Darkness (100 minutes) 4th – Greater Magic Weapon (10 hours) 5th – Persistent Divine Favor (24 hours) 5th – Righteous Might (10 rounds) 5th – Spell Phylactery (permanent until discharged) Feats: Power Attack, Headlong Rush, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell Equipment: Full Plate - 1500 Animated Heavy Wooden Shield +2 - 9000 Viscous Greatclub +1 made for 8 hands - 8305 Boots of Speed - 12000 Periapt of Wisdom +2 - 4000 Pearl of Power III - 9000 Scroll: Sadism (CL 10) – 750 Total: 44555 AC: 10 +8 armor +4 shield +4 wisdom +5 deflection +4 natural, -1 size, -2 dexterity, +1 dodge (haste) = 33 Attack: +7 base, +16 strength +2 enhancement +3 luck, -2 size (+2 charge) = +26 Damage: 1d10 greatclub, +10 spikes, +2 enhancement, +3 luck, +14 power attack, +72 strength = 106 average Round 1: Righteous Might (activates Spell Phylactery, casting Sadism) Round 2: Curse of the Brute Round 3: Charge and power attack for 7, +21 to hit, damage is 1d10+101 = 106 * 3 (headlong rush and viscous) = 318 (+31 to hit next round) Round 4: Power attack for 7, +50/+50/+45 to hit, damage is 1d10+107/1d10+107/1d10+107 = 318 Round 5: Power attack for 7, +50/+50/+45 to hit, damage is 1d10+107/1d10+107/1d10+107 = 318 Total for 5 rounds: 954 Total for 10 rounds: 2544 Same character except 1 hour before the fight. Cleric 8 / Divine Disciple 2 Domains: Balance, War, Darkness Mountain Orc Str: 16 (10 pts.) +4 race +8 size +11 enhancement = 39 (+14) Dex: 8 (0 pts.) –2 size Con: 8 (0 pts.) +4 size Int: 14 (6 pts.) Wis: 16 (10 pts.) +2 enhancement = 18 (+4) Cha: 14 (6 pts.) Spells: 6/4+1+1/4+1+1/3+1+1/3+1+1/2+1 3rd – Girallon’s Blessing 3 extra sets of arms for being large (100 min) 3rd – Spikes (10 hours) 3rd – Curse of the Brute (10 rounds) 4th domain – Armor of Darkness (100 minutes) 4th – Greater Magic Weapon (10 hours) 5th – Persistent Divine Favor (24 hours) 5th – Righteous Might (10 rounds) 5th – Spell Phylactery (permanent until discharged) Feats: Power Attack, Headlong Rush, Extend Spell, Persistent Spell Equipment: Full Plate - 1500 Animated Heavy Wooden Shield +2 - 9000 Viscous Greatclub +1 made for 8 hands - 8305 Boots of Speed - 12000 Periapt of Wisdom +2 - 4000 Pearl of Power III - 9000 Scroll: Sadism (CL 10) – 750 Total: 44555 AC: 10 +8 armor +4 shield +4 wisdom +5 deflection +4 natural, -1 size, -2 dexterity, +1 dodge (haste) = 33 Attack: +7 base, +14 strength +2 enhancement +3 luck, -2 size (+2 charge) = +24 Damage: 1d10 greatclub, +10 spikes, +2 enhancement, +3 luck, +12 power attack, +63 strength = 95 average Round 1: Righteous Might (activates Spell Phylactery, casting Sadism) Round 2: Curse of the Brute Round 3: Charge and power attack for 7, +21 to hit, damage is 1d10+90 = 95 * 3 (headlong rush and viscous) = 285 (+27 to hit next round) Round 4: Power attack for 10, +44/+44/+39 to hit, damage is 1d10+90/1d10+90/1d10+90 = 285 Round 5: Power attack for 10, +52/+52/+47 to hit, damage is 1d10+90/1d10+90/1d10+90 = 285 Total for 5 rounds: 855 Total for 10 rounds: 2280 +=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Hopefully I didn't missing anything, but as usual I've got a feeling I did. Cheers Otto :)
Zoloft 12-12-03, 10:04 PM	Good one Otto. heh, not many DM's would put up with that crap for long... anyway where is the Vicious enhancement from? How much less damage on your attack (not including charging) would you do if you were medium size, like a half-orc perhaps?
Otto the Bugbear 12-12-03, 10:26 PM	Viscous is from Unapproachable East, IIRC. Really the only thing lost would be the strength bonus. I didn't apply the increase to weapon damage up to 2d8. Damage from being medium size would be 12 less per round, so 36 damage for the 5 round fight. Cheers Otto :)
epchristi 12-12-03, 11:12 PM	Nice build otto.. mind helping a beginner? :) How did +4 to AC from wisdom happen? How are you getting +72 str? Your stength of 43 gives a bonus of +16.. so I don't see how we get to 72? (I don't have access to Divine Disciple..) Where is Girallon’s Blessing from?
epchristi 12-12-03, 11:15 PM	Originally posted by Zoloft Well, the fact that a cleric has good spells is not evidentiary that a ftr would be better at anything; but we shall see what builds others come up with. Yeah.. I don't want to delve into which is the best PC. I could see cleric arguably being the best overall.. but I was just trying to see if it was a better fighter than a fighter. In normal game experiences that hasn't been the case.. but after seeing a few of these builds.. I am flat out amazed. (I don't own enough books to do this.. and we don't use FRCS.. but that was fine for this contest.) I still don't see how they are getting +72 strength bonus.. but then I don't have all the descriptions etc. The lack of fighter builds worries me. ;)
Zoloft 12-12-03, 11:34 PM	Fighter-type (I'm sure Otto will do better but I like simple builds) L4 ftr/L6 Ranger Half-orc Str 20+2+6 Cha 14 Feats Weapon focus: scimitar Weapon Specialization: Scimitar Two Weapon fighting Improved two weapon fighting Leadership gear: Belt of strength +6 (32k) 2 duskwood scimitars (1515 each) Boots of Speed (12k) one 8th level cleric cohort ;) each day cleric cohort casts these spells on ftr; (he stays out of combat entirely (hides) and heals as needed post-combat) extended Spikes on both duskwood scimitars Magic Vestment +2 ab: 10+1+2+9=22 ab (two scimitars, hasted): 18/18/18/13/13 crit range 15-20 damage per hit: 1d6+9+8+2+2=24.5 chance of each attack hit vs ac20 averaged: 80% chance of crit and threat combined: 20% avg (24.5*.8)*1.2=23.52*5 attacks =117 damage per round 5 round total = 588 10 round total =1176 This illustrates a point that has been brought up in other "clerics are uber" threads: In a PARTY situation a cleric can cast buffs on the fighter too, and that makes them nearly equal or gives the fighter the advantage if the party plans their strategy right. I still like to play clerics more because I like the tactical aspect of spellcasting with really no disadvantages.
catharz 12-12-03, 11:47 PM	Does anyone think it would be unbalanced to remove Divine power and Spikes from the list of cleric spells? The first for obvious reasons, the second because, compared to similar core spells (say Greater magic weapon) it is way too good. It seems to me that these two spells are the most unbalancing in the Cleric's repitoire. Taking them away dosen't destroy the Melee cleric (see Righteous might, etc.), but is definately takes away it's two greatest 'abuses.'
Zoloft 12-12-03, 11:55 PM	Here's my guess as to where the +72 str dmg comes from, tell me if I'm wrong.. Str 43 (+16) +8 str from curse of the Brute (+24) 24*3 for having 8 arms on one weapon = 72 two handed is *1.5, so 4 is *2, etc. this illustrates a major flaw in D20, with strength multipliers compounded by crit and other multipliers making ridiculous effects See Hulking Hurler Build for a 120Million damage in one hit build any player who tried something like otto's build in a game I was DMing would be allowed exactly one game session to screw around and then he'd have to retire. And Girallon's blessing is considered by many to be a "broken" spell
epchristi 12-13-03, 12:06 AM	As I am starting to understand.. there are spells I didn't even know existed that allow some funny stacking. With regards to divine power.. it would seem reasonable that if it just gave the BAB and not the strength bonus too.. it would be better balance. (Believe me.. I didn't start this way a week ago.) It would also seem that spikes.. which I have never used.. is a tad on the powerful side, if you consider you can add it up with all the other potential abilities. It would seem spikes should be just like flame of faith or other spells. It adds 1d6 (or 1d8) to the damage of a wooden weapon.
Eagle Prince 12-13-03, 12:13 AM	I think tatical feats would let him mop up the cleric in melee unless the rolls just went against him. He could charge in first round with full power attack but -10 AC instead of -10 attack, for +20 damage and make a DC 25 jump check for another +4, this actually being an improved sunder attempt against his weapon (which with adamantine and power attack is going to sunder it, he's got a +4 to attack for sundering and its already fairly low AC to hit a weapon), then he gets a cleave attack against the cleric to which he adds in a stunning fist attack to. If the cleric makes the save for stunning, then the fighter takes a 5-foot step back to provoke the AoO and get a free trip attack. Follow up with a full attack with the +4 for the cleric being prone and full power attack for an extra +30 damage. At that point the cleric will be dead if he wasn't already. With tatic and style feats, fighter 20 is just very attractive now.
Zoloft 12-13-03, 12:19 AM	I don't think spikes is unbalanced, but the bonus to damage should be an enhancement bonus so it dosent stack with the +2 from the spell or GMW. but to define balance by way of comparison to othr spells: brambles is one level lower with shorter duration, and only +1 to hit Shillelagh adds +1 to hit and average +3 damage as a L1 spell. so I see a pretty good progression in spells here L1 +1/+3 L2 +1/+10 L3 +2/+10 As far a Divine Power is concerned look at Tenser's Transformation, a L6 spell and compare it to DP, a 4th spell.
Zoloft 12-13-03, 12:31 AM	And Eagle, if you are going to drag this thread into the Cleric Vs Fighter player character death match route then dont expect the cleric to not use his spells on the fighter loong before the ftr can use his funny feats... Try a will save DC25 or Hold Person with your L10 ftr Watch my shatter spell turn your sword to dust mid charge with a readied action. Followed by your armor... those were only the second level spells.
Eagle Prince 12-13-03, 12:39 AM	Ah, I thought thats what the thread was about. And said cleric isn't going to have a DC 25 hold person, nor does he have any inherent better chance of starting the battle before the fighter.
Zoloft 12-13-03, 12:49 AM	L10 cleric 18 Wis +2 for advancement+6 for Periapt of Wis=26 +2 effective Wis for Spellcasting from Spellcasting Prodigy Feat DC=10+2 spell+9 Wis+4 GSpell Focus=25 Cleric spells have range and hence can be used sooner in battle; yes, you could ambush the cleric while he's sleeping and slit his throat or something but otherwise I'd say ftr is screewed.
Eagle Prince 12-13-03, 12:59 AM	A lvl 10 cleric can't have a +6 enhancement bonus to Wis, too expensive. And medium distance isn't all that safe against a mount that can move that far in one round and the fighter has a 75% chance of staying on even held. Also thats if they manage to spot each other at that far of range, which is unlikely for either other than in baren plains or at sea. The fighter will also be able to break the held effect fairly easily with a save each round.
Zoloft 12-13-03, 01:03 AM	L10 starting eq, 49K +6 stat item made with craft Wondrous, 16k Death and destruction, Priceless
Zoloft 12-13-03, 01:14 AM	Medium range is 200 ft, that's not hard to see in most terrain. What's your Will save like on a L10 ftr 4 base + Wis. Even with a 14 wis you have a 5% chance of breaking hold person. Then make reflex DC24 vs Wall of stone or die (also medium range) Or perhaps I would layer 5 Briar webs on him while held for 1d4+10 damage each with no save if you move, each with a DC 20 reflex or entangle resulting in a -4 dex which further lowers your reflex...
Eagle Prince 12-13-03, 01:15 AM	Making it yourself you might be able to bypass the 24500gp limit (not sure), but Spell Prodagy and Craft Wondrous Item--he's not even a melee cleric anymore. Anyway, most fighters will only have to roll a 8-12 on the saving throw, and he gets to make a save every round. Plus if he's on a trained horse, its going to bolt when you start advancing, giving him all that many more rounds to break out. Then he can stay out of your range and plug your cleric with arrows until you get in charge range (180 ft with horseshoes of speed). Hold person isn't going to take down a level 10 fighter, even if he's solo (unless of course he's rolling horribly the whole time, which means everythings as it should if its coming down to rolls).
Wizu 12-13-03, 01:27 AM	Level 12 example, core rules only. Fighter 5/weaponmaster 7 versus cleric level 12, cleric had three rounds before the combat started, due to good spot check. Fighters equipment of importance, adamantine +1 keen scythe, boots of speed, heavy warhorse. Clerics... well he had likely most of the good stuff cleric can get, we werent allowed to see eachothers character sheets. 1st round /Me makes my horse run at full speed. /Him casts something, didnt affect me tho 2nd round /Me is still going full speed, activating my boots of speed /Him comes 30ft closer and casts something, crud if I would know what 3rd round /Me does charge attack with my scythe and roll 19, a hit and possible critical. I roll 18 in the confirmation of critical. Whoops the cleric just takes 87 dmg. /Him rolls 2 in fortitude saving throw against massive damage. In the end, he kinda dies because of massive damage and I kinda thriumphed. This battle was done inspired by this thread at last friday. Luck, situational advange, won of initiative... Yeah, in other scenario I believe the cleric would have won. Boohoo!
Zoloft 12-13-03, 01:28 AM	So what kind of Will/Reflex saves do you think an average L10 ftr has? with a base Will of +4 In order to have an 8+ to beat DC25 the ftr needs a Wis of...44 or a Vest of resistance +5 and a wis of 34 like I said with a 14 Wis on a Ftr dump stat then he has a 5% chance of saving. In full plate with dex 12+ ftr has 5% chance of reflex vs wall of stone or die.
epchristi 12-13-03, 01:32 AM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince I think tatical feats would let him mop up the cleric in melee unless the rolls just went against him. He could charge in first round with full power attack but -10 AC instead of -10 attack, for +20 damage and make a DC 25 jump check for another +4, this actually being an improved sunder attempt against his weapon (which with adamantine and power attack is going to sunder it, he's got a +4 to attack for sundering and its already fairly low AC to hit a weapon), then he gets a cleave attack against the cleric to which he adds in a stunning fist attack to. If the cleric makes the save for stunning, then the fighter takes a 5-foot step back to provoke the AoO and get a free trip attack. Follow up with a full attack with the +4 for the cleric being prone and full power attack for an extra +30 damage. At that point the cleric will be dead if he wasn't already. With tatic and style feats, fighter 20 is just very attractive now. Yeah.. but this little "challenge" won't show that, despite the fact it was the point I was trying to make. In a straight up battle, however, I am losing hope for the fighter with the builds we have seen tonight. In our campaign, however, I couldn't make any of the builds listed. But that's okay.. it's fun to watch. In a thread on "persistent" feat, I didn't think even with persistent spells that a cleric did fighter better than fighter. And your quote points more to what I was trying to hint at.. it requires tactics and skills.. and I brought up sundering in the other thread as well. But I didn't realize all the "wierd" spells that could be stacked to give "amazing" results. It looks like the winner of this challenge, as stated, will perhaps be the cleric, much to my surprise. But I still think a fighter can do fighter better than a cleric. But it isn't too hard to argue, that a cleric is a very powerful PC.. it can hold it's own in melee, and has a decent selection of offensive and defensive spells. (But it beats first edition, when they weren't any fun to play.) ;)
epchristi 12-13-03, 01:36 AM	Originally posted by Zoloft And Eagle, if you are going to drag this thread into the Cleric Vs Fighter player character death match route then dont expect the cleric to not use his spells on the fighter loong before the ftr can use his funny feats... Yeah.. I am aware of this, but the challenge was if a cleric can do "fighter" better than a fighter. I am not suggesting it's the cleric's best alternative. (And part of the reason, at high levels, the persistent feat becomes a moot point.) But this is still very interesting to compare.. IMHO. I appreciate the effort.. and am still hoping for some cool fighter builds.
Zoloft 12-13-03, 01:39 AM	Heavy horse avg hp, 19 Searing Light 5d8 avg damage, 22.5 dead horse, no charge +3 magic weapon save vs quickened shatter fort +4 vs dc 22, 10% chance of success
cellardweller 12-13-03, 01:57 AM	@Eagle Prince - this is not a cleric vs fighter simulation, it is a simulation to see who can acheive the most decisive melee superiority against against a slaad. You have asserted that fighter feats make a difference, but have not shown it with numbers. @zoloft - your example fighter with a cleric cohort only shows that a fighter and cleric are not as good as a cleric by himself ;)
Zoloft 12-13-03, 02:09 AM	MY ftr was not as good as otto's trick cleric, but my fighter build beat my own cleric build for melee damage output and I'm a cleric specialist normally. When I started the ftr build I didn't know what the outcome would be until I did the math. the ftr could have obtained the spikes spell via a 2x per day wondrous item casting extended spikes @L10 and then he wouldn't have needed the cohort. The Leadership feat just does the same thing for free.
Eagle Prince 12-13-03, 02:33 AM	Eh, sounds kind of pointless. Lets see, half-orc barbarian 1/fighter 4/whatever 1/exotic weaponmaster 1/eye of gruumsh 2/frenzied berserker 1; Str 26 (+2 level, belt of giant Str +4), or 40 raging- full power attack has +18/+18/+13 or so with a +3 weapon for like +53 damage per hit or such. Finish off frenzied berserker he could get like 50 Str at level 20 and +5 weapon for something like +25/+25/+20/+15/+10 and +125 damage per hit. You could probably get it higher, but who cares.
cellardweller 12-13-03, 03:09 AM	Originally posted by Eagle Prince Eh, sounds kind of pointless. Lets see, half-orc barbarian 1/fighter 4/whatever 1/exotic weaponmaster 1/eye of gruumsh 2/frenzied berserker 1; Str 26 (+2 level, belt of giant Str +4), or 40 raging- full power attack has +18/+18/+13 or so with a +3 weapon for like +53 damage per hit or such. Finish off frenzied berserker he could get like 50 Str at level 20 and +5 weapon for something like +25/+25/+20/+15/+10 and +125 damage per hit. You could probably get it higher, but who cares. Ballpark calc: 3 attacks ave hit .81 ave damage 60 crit factor 1.1 per round:160.38 5 rounds: 641.52 10 rounds: 1443.42 Still nowhere near the cleric builds posted (and I'm not convinced that +53 can be acheived with a 32 pt buy in 10 lvls)
Eagle Prince 12-13-03, 03:21 AM	What cleric builds? I'm assuming they use full mounted charges every other round if they do more than that. Which isn't at all hard to do with a fighter either.
PhaedrusXY 12-13-03, 06:36 AM	Ok, here's a fairly simple "fighter" entry. The only bit of cheese in it is the ring that gives him the continuous effects of the Lion's Charge spell. If the referee disallows that, he could always stock up on potions, but they would take a round to drink and probably wouldn't be worth it. You might be better off with a mounted, charging, lance wielding build. Hopefully someone else will submit one. The damage on this doesn't stand up to Otto's build, but it hangs in there with the other clerics. Also, I don't own the Complete Warrior, but I am sure that there are a couple of feats in there that might improve this. Half-orc Barb1/Ftr8/FrenBerz1 Stats Str 20 (34 with rage, frenzy and +4 belt) +12 mod Con 14 Dex 12 Int 8 Wis 14 Cha 6 1 Barb1 Destructive Rage 2 Ftr1 Power Attack 3 Ftr2 Wolf Berzerker, Improved Trip 4 Ftr3 5 Ftr4 Cleave 6 Ftr5 Knockdown 7 Ftr6 Power Lunge 8 Ftr7 9 Ftr8 Imp. Crit: Greatsword, Intimidating Rage 10 FB1 Gear: +4 Str belt (16,000), Rhino Hide Armor (5,165), +1 Vicious Greatsword of Frost (18,000), Ring with continuous Lion's Charge spell effect (4,000 worth of stinky cheese) Attacks +23/+23/+18 Base Damage 5d6+13, Avg 30.5 Round 1, +7 Power Attack and charge Attacks +18/+18/+13 (95% and 70% chances to hit, respectively. 20% chance to threaten a crit.) Normal Charge Damage 7d6+39, Avg 63.5 Crit Charge Damage 9d6+78, Avg 109.5 Almost guaranteed to knock the Slaad down with a +20 trip modifier and the Knockdown feat. If it tries to stand up, it is quite likely to get knocked back down from the AoO. Round 2-15, assuming the Slaad is prone when my turn starts, make a full attack and Power Attack for 9. Attacks +18/+18/+13 (95% and 70% chances to hit, respectively. 20% chance to threaten a crit.) Damage 5d6+31, Avg 48.5 Crit Damage 7d6+62, Avg 86.5 Damage Calculations: I didn't include damage for any attacks of opportunity the Slaad would incur from standing. It is likely that it would provoke at least once I think, though. Charging Normal Charge Damage 7d6+39, Avg 63.5 Crit Charge Damage 9d6+78, Avg 109.5 overall chance to crit on attacks 1 and 2 is 19% Average damage over 100 swings = (63.5X81 + 109.5X19)/100 =(5413.5+2080.5)/100=75 Subtract 5% as damage lost from missing, so average 71 damage for 2 swings, or 142. overall chance to crit on attack 3 is 15% Average damage over 100 swings = (63.5X85 + 109.5X15)/100 =70 Subtract 30% as damage lost from missing, so average 49 damage for the third swing. So total average damage per round on the charge is 191. Non-charging Damage 5d6+31, Avg 48.5 Crit Damage 7d6+62, Avg 86.5 overall chance to crit on attacks 1 and 2 is 19% Average damage over 100 swings = (48.5X81 + 86.5X19)/100 =56 (3928.5+1643.5)/100=56 Subtract 5% as damage lost from missing, so average 53 damage for 2 swings, or 106. overall chance to crit on attack 3 is 15% Average damage over 100 swings = (48.5X85 + 86.5X15)/100 =54 Subtract 30% as damage lost from missing, so average 38 damage for the third swing. So total average damage per round on the non-charging rounds is 144. So 144*9+191=1487 total damage for 10 rounds. Let me know if you see any errors. It was in the wee hours of the morning when I finished this. Edit: found an error. :P Oh, and the Viscious enchantment is in the 3.5 SRD. Wolf Berzerker is a feat from the Unapproachable East. It gives you a +4 to trip and allows you to take Improved Trip without meeting the normal prereqs.
Eagle Prince 12-13-03, 08:34 AM	You could always max UMD a bit and use a scroll of persistant rightous might for +8 Str, or make a TWF fighter/rogue with a wand of greater invisible for like 4 attacks at full BAB and 2 at -5 (all being w/ sneak attack).
Otto the Bugbear 12-13-03, 09:59 AM	The strength damage comes from the increased multiplier due to Girallon's Blessing. With 2 hands on a weapon, the increase is x1.5; with 8 hands on a weapon, the increase is x4.5 16 x 4.5 = +72 damage Rules concerning this are covered in Savage Species. Each extra hand being used to wield a weapon adds 0.5 to the strength multiplier. And yes, that spell is a bit over the top. The +4 to AC is from the Balance domain (found in Underdark). It provides a bonus to AC equal to the build's wisdom bonus. I don't see the need to remove either Spikes or Divine Power from the cleric's spell list. Just take a look at my submission. Now, if that was part of a party and was using up all those spells, what's left for other utility stuff or healing? Not being very efficient in the spell category, is it? Granted, GMW, Magic Vestment and other long duration spells are nice, but a cleric is usually better of figuring out ways to more efficiently heal his or her party. I too currently play a cleric. As the only stand up and fight character in the party, I do use persistent divine favor and extended magic vestment (on shield). However, the remaining spells are almost exclusively utility or healing (extended regenerate moderate wounds :yum: ). The only other offensive spells I usually will take are Flame Strike and Hold Person. Flame strike ends up being a Mass Cure Light Wounds more than it ends up being a Flame Strike (more efficiency in healing) and Hold Person ends up being Cure Moderate Wounds. The other 2nd and 5th level spells I take are either long gone, or I like to hold it in reserve. Overall, these melee clerics usually cause more problems in a true party situation than not, IMO. Not only is he wasting his valuable healing skills, but he's making the figher player feel left out -- which is the real tragedy here. On another note, if the same cleric was forced to cast all these spells 4 hours prior to the battle, the outcome is greatly reduced. This is where the Fighter-type really shines. There will be nearly no drop off in his damage output throughout an adventuring day. Back to work on that fighter type. Cheers Otto :)
Zoloft 12-13-03, 04:52 PM	On another note, if the same cleric was forced to cast all these spells 4 hours prior to the battle, the outcome is greatly reduced. This is where the Fighter-type really shines. There will be nearly no drop off in his damage output throughout an adventuring day. All the spells in my cleric build last 20-24 hours, which is why I like clerics, because with no special equipment and 6 spells (plus DP @L15) cast I can have a dedicated spellcaster who is at least the second best fighter in the party depending on the ftr player. And more importantly, is not stat intensive and can more efficiently use the magic items I do have with little need for magic armor except for special enhancements, and no need for expensive magic weapons. @L17+ daily buffs would be: Spikes GMW Magic Vestment Armor MV Shield Persistent DF P Divine Power P Divine Grace base stats being 14/14/12/8/18/8 32 point buy after buffs etc: 20/20/12/8/29/8 Mithral full plate of nimbleness and I can use the full 20 dex ac at least 35 plus quickened shield of faith makes ac40 whenever needed bab of fighter, modified +36/31/26/21 hits for d6+26 saves like a monk 12/12/12 base yeah, a cleric wont be doing as much melee damage as a charging build ftr but for a handful of spells with no fancy prestige class/feat mathematics and little equiment requirements the cleric is still hard to beat unless the ftr wants to dedicate his whole build to keeping up with a clerics secondary ability.
Otto the Bugbear 12-13-03, 05:59 PM	Zoloft, That's all well and good. But, I wasn't talking about your cleric, or any 17th level cleric for that matter. I meant the 10th level build I submitted for this thread. Good info though. Cheers Otto :)
Funny Slaughter 12-13-03, 10:41 PM	Cleric 8 / Divine Disciple 2 Domains: Balance, War, Darkness hi otto, i know you are trying to improve my build with this, but there was a reason i did not take divine disciple: must have a patron deity do you find a listed patron deity with balance, war and darkness? :confused: i didnt, i used the option to follow an idea, not a god. btw, balance is from underdark and was mainly used to get wisdom to AC (domain power) as for my build: of course i am aware of the fact that extended spells that last 20 min are quite cheesy. you made clear rules for this contest and i played within the rules. of course i abused the holes as slaad bane and 20min, but thats what holes in contest-rules are for... its not really much you loose when you give up persistant at this level nor when you dont take the 20-min-spells. (but you save a whole lot of work) actually it wasnt that much work, one knows the spells and where they are and since i equipped quite a few characters at this level it was looking through the books for some time, nothing more. btw, obscuring mist as well as darkness give a 20% miss chance which i overcome by blindsight. oh, and cohorts should be prohibited, too. what was the beast we fought in this great thread long ago? white dragons? gs Funny
quester 12-14-03, 12:26 AM	One Little thing. Blind sight doesn't over come a % to miss. It says in the book that blide sight can tell you someone is there. But doesn't help you hit them.
Stoned Golem 12-14-03, 01:39 AM	Blindsense can't, blindsight can.
drachentoeter 12-14-03, 02:25 AM	Hey everybody, I'm new to this part of the boards and just finished reading through this thread. It seems to me that all this cleric builds rely on the stacking of spells, feats etc. from splatbooks. I wonder what the results would be if the contest was core rules only. Everything you don't find in the PHB and DMG would be disallowed, after all these are the only books you'll find in every campaign.
Zoloft 12-14-03, 03:07 AM	well, now you're trying to narrow the options until you get a desired outcome perhaps? I consider the splatbooks to be core since they're not specific to any setting. FR and Dragonlance I could see an argument against but the splats are meant to be used as part of the game.
Zoloft 12-14-03, 03:47 AM	L10 cleric PHB only fire domain, war domain (spiked gaunts) Dex 17 Wis 15(21) Str 16 (20) wf:spiked gaunts twf itwf quicken extend empower Belt of Str +4 Boots of Speed Periapt of wisdom +4 Spiked Gauntlets buffs: GMW +3 on both gaunts quickened Divine Favor on round one extended empowered produce flame on round one quickened bless on round two quickened inflict light wounds on round three quickened inflict minor wounds on rounds 4 and 5 attacks starting on round 2: +18/+18/+18/+13/+13 Damage from hit: 1d4+3+3+1+5 avg 14.5 Damage from Produce Flame: (1d6+5)*1.5 avg 12.75 avg chance of hit on gaunts: 75% avg chance of hit on flames touch ac: 95% (miss on 1's) 14.5*.75=10.875 12.75*.95=12.1125+10.875=22.9875 plus 5% chance of crit=24.137 damage on rounds 2-5=482 inflict light vs DC 16 saves 45%*9.5=4.2 inflict minor saves 50%*2=1 5 round total=488 beat that with core only ftr?
GooseOfMercy 12-14-03, 04:13 AM	Otto, I have to agree with you that melee clerics get in the way. I played a ranged cleric and could easily out do damage with everyone in the party but almost always got in only one round of shots then went to healing or other type clerical business. I like the classic idea of cleric; healer, buffer, undead killer, and only slight combat abilities when needed. I think the great part of the cleric is how versatile it can really be, how many different kinda of clerics you can build that are effective. This is also what makes me favor monks and fighters. What about a Half-Ogre Enlarged Grappler? Might not have enough feats to be super effective. Don't have the books with me but might make this. Would probablly not compare in damage to other builds.
Vysirez 12-14-03, 04:33 AM	I've found that the advantages a fighter has are a combination of things. The problem with these discussions is that a cleric with all of his long term buffs up is really nasty if built right. But he can't really go much past that. A well designed fighter however is almost as powerful, and if various party members throw in some buffs he ends up rather well. I normally lean towards casters when playing D&D. But lately I've been playing warrior types and I have not felt at all underpowered. In fact I have to tone myself down at times. I have found that fighters need focus in on other things he can do besides damage. Doing damage is nice, but tanking or tactical control is also important. One of the campains I'm playing in I had a 9th lvl half dragon fighter. Specialized in using the spiked chain with triping feats. Pretty much eveything spent the whole fight on the ground and he would have been even worse if we hadn't house ruled the AOO when standing up. Or go for a defensive build that has high AC and lots of hps or DR. You will still be doing good damage but will also add other things. Directly comparing a fighter vs buffed melee cleric for damage output can be misleading and is somewhat useless. However as to the original point, can a buffed melee cleric do as much or more damage in melee as a fighter the answer is going to be yes. Clerics are overpowered in the current versions of D&D. I have no problems with this since I still don't see to many clerics. Plus a buffed cleric only gets that powerful with persistant and/or a few odd spells, so if you don't like it don't use it.
Funny Slaughter 12-14-03, 06:52 AM	Plus a buffed cleric only gets that powerful with persistant and/or a few odd spells, so if you don't like it don't use it. yep. just remove the spellcasting completely and you will eventually see the cleric falling behind... :eek: clerics do rely on only a few spells to be very strong in combat. in a challenge like this there is a long list of used spells, in fact you would never ever spend all your slots buffing yourself. as for battlefield-control and tactical movement/feats: a cleric spells are battlefield-control a fighter can never achieve. and while a fighter has lots of feats to spend a cleric can get only a few, but buffs allow him to outshine the fighter even in this area. various spells improve movement so the cleric wins here also. in my opinion the only reason not to play a cleric (or druid) at lvl 12+ is that you are lazy. i like to play a fighter-char, in our group the worst player (and roleplayer) has a cleric, if i have to play him the balance in the group breaks up very fast. i think the only thing why clerics are not so powerful as they are within the numbers is the fact that they have to heal/buff the party. if you can only spend two rounds fighting and are running after your dying buddies then... gs Funny
drachentoeter 12-14-03, 08:07 AM	Originally posted by Zoloft well, now you're trying to narrow the options until you get a desired outcome perhaps? I consider the splatbooks to be core since they're not specific to any setting. FR and Dragonlance I could see an argument against but the splats are meant to be used as part of the game. I have no desire to see the figther OR the cleric win this one. But I for one do not consider the splat books core, even if they are not specific for a particular setting. I believe so do many others. The core books are the one common denominator for every campaign. In our campaign I allow stuff from the splat books only on a case to case basis, as I do consider some of the PrCl and feats in those books extremly overpowered, especially when combined with others. But your cleric build is a very nice one, congrats you're good at what you are doing. :thumbsup: :tiphat: Perhaps somebody who's also good at this could do the math for a fighter, barbarian-fighter or rogue-figther build with core rules only. I believe at this low a level a figther build should still be able to keep up with the cleric build. It would also be interesting to see a druid build for this.:)
Otto the Bugbear 12-14-03, 12:34 PM	First off, I wanted to address Funny. I wasn't trying to call you out for using the rules the way you did. (Except the 5th level spells thing, which is a minor oversight.) What I was really doing was trying to encourage other entries to avoid those things, and to make a mental note to clarify this stuff in the future. I gave up on doing a complex fighter type build and instead concentrated on something that is simple and repeatable. The Fighter 4 / Barbarian 1 / Frenzied Berserker 5 did more damage, but that was thanks to the strength boost, which was only usable once per day (without Extra Rage feat). This one still does a lot of damage, even if it's not comparable to the fully buffed cleric. The main attraction to this one is that he can do it all day long, every encounter (where the movement is applicable). The only thing he'll really need from the party is healing, but what fighter doesn't? Here it is: Fighter 10 Hit Points: 10 + 9d10 + 30 = 89.5 Str: 20 (16 pts) +2 level +6 enhancement = 28 (+9) Dex: 14 (6 pts) Con: 16 (8 pts) Int: 6 Wis: 10 (2 pts) Cha: 6 1 - Power Attack 3 - Power Lunge 6 - Headlong Rush (Races of Faerun – x2 damage on charge) 9 - Dodge f1 - Mobility f2 – Spring Attack f4 - Weapon Specialization f6 - Weapon Focus f8 – Improved Trip f10 – Knockdown Vicious Lance +1 = 1d10 + 18 strength +1 enhancement +9 power lunge +10 power attack, +2 weapon specialization = 45 x 3 = 135 135 x 5 rounds = 675 135 x 10 rounds = 1350 To hit: +5 BAB, +9 strength, +1 weapon focus, +1 enhancement, +2 charge +1 haste = +19 (auto hit Slaad) Equipment: Boots of Haste - 12000 Vicious heavy Lance +1 - 8310 Chain Shirt +3 – 9250 Belt of Strength +6 – 16000 Animated Heavy Wood Shield +1 - 4157 AC: 10 base +6 armor +3 shield +1 dodge, +1 dodge, +4 mobility = 25 Damage taken for 5 rounds (he’ll only get one attack as I move past, and he won’t be able to catch me for a full attack: 80 movement charge v. 60 movement to get within full attack. Claw +13 melee hits 45% of the time, 5 attacks x 2d6+6 (12 damage) x 0.45 = 27 damage Damage taken for 10 rounds Claw +13 melee hits 45% of the time, 10 attacks x 2d6+6 (12 damage) x 0.45 = 54 damage Hopefully no mistakes, but there probably are. Oops, one mistake, but not overly bad; he's 717 gold over the limit, but I don't think that's too bad and I'm too lazy to redo all the calculations with belt of strength +4 and some more AC due to the extra gold. Cheers Otto :)
Qwanga 12-14-03, 01:05 PM	I'm not sure I completely understand the object lesson of this challenge. But I think I see a loophole that hasn't been exploited yet. I'm not much of an optimizer, so forgive me if this isn't legal. If average damage is what wins this contest, I'd choose some sort of assassin build (maybe based on a ranger with slaad as a favoured enemy) and: - invisibly and silently study the slaad for 3 rounds - cast a "silent spell" of true strike, make a sneak attack, and hope that the slaad fails it's Fort save against my death attack If it fails, the slaad dies, and I've inflicted infinite damage. I'd only need this to work once, because my "average" damage would be infinite. Perhaps I've missed the point?
Neonsamurai 12-14-03, 01:29 PM	The slaad in this contest can't die, you need to inflict damage points. Furthermore, you're approach would fail as soon as the target of the contest becomes immune to critical hits.
Funny Slaughter 12-14-03, 01:40 PM	hi otto, a belt+6 is out of range because you may only spend half your money for one item. +19 (auto hit Slaad): still 5% miss chance. did you figure it in? anyhow, its no autohit. how about grappling? a cleric can just cast freedom of movement, your fighter seems to be vulnerable. grapple: BAB 10 + 9 str = 19 slaad: BAB 8 + 6 str + 4 size: 18 a fair chance to get you, and then you are in a bad situation :) beside this: the slaad can charge you after you hit him. that does not mean much, but you can not charge back after this because you are in melee, so no valorous and headlong rush etc. [edit] and i would love to see an orc charging with a lance but without mount :) eventually he stumbles, the lance pikes into the ground and he dabbles into pole vault? ;) gs Funny
Qwanga 12-14-03, 01:49 PM	Originally posted by Neonsamurai The slaad in this contest can't die, you need to inflict damage points. That's not what epchristi said. He said the slaad had infinite hit points, not that it couldn't die. In theory, you could kill it by drowning it or asyphixiating it, too. Furthermore, you're approach would fail as soon as the target of the contest becomes immune to critical hits. Unless I misread it, Death Attacks aren't based on criticals, according to the DMG. They're based on successful sneak attacks. Anyway, even if the slaad was unaffected by crits, couldn't the ranger/assassin take the MotW feat Supernatural Blow to get around that?
Otto the Bugbear 12-14-03, 02:03 PM	Wow, did I flub up with that +6 belt!!! Here's a :turkey: for me. That price is for the +4 version, so damage is down a little. (15 damage on the 5 round fight, and 30 damage on the 10 round fight. Of course with spring attack and 40 ft. movement it'll work like this: Start 10 ft. away from Slaad, charge and hit, use spring attack and move another 70 ft. away from him. Slaad can double move and ends up 10 ft. away. Rinse and repeat. I also didn't want to factor in the knockdown and Improved Trip, which would also alter the Slaad's ability to fight do any damage. If the movement ends up being a problem, it's always possible to use a little multiclass action and add barbarian (drop a imp. trip and knockdown) and maybe something else. Like I said, I gave up on making it complex. I just wanted to show the original poster that he can do a lot to compete with that cleric in his party. Of course I didn't figure in the 5% miss chance, but if you do the math the build is doing more damage if you figure in the roll of "1" missing and the 19-20/x2 crit. I was just being lazy, but I pretty sure from past experience that adding in the crits and fumbles ends up doing more damage. Of course the grapple is a bad situation. But that's the case for most characters v. large opponents. Unless a character is set up specifically to battle against a grapple, it will be vulnerable. Yeah, the pole vault is just a side benefit. +20 to your jump check sound about right? :D Cheers Otto :)
Otto the Bugbear 12-14-03, 02:14 PM	Originally posted by Qwanga That's not what epchristi said. He said the slaad had infinite hit points, not that it couldn't die. In theory, you could kill it by drowning it or asyphixiating it, too. Unless I misread it, Death Attacks aren't based on criticals, according to the DMG. They're based on successful sneak attacks. Anyway, even if the slaad was unaffected by crits, couldn't the ranger/assassin take the MotW feat Supernatural Blow to get around that? Yeah, or disintegrate, implosion, finger of death, slay living, etc. The contest is about making a fighter-type competing with a cleric-type in the damage dealing department. If you wanted to use assassin levels to help your fighter type deal more damage than the cleric, that's great. But, it's not just about killing something. Cheers Otto :)
Funny Slaughter 12-14-03, 02:30 PM	charge: you must move before your attack, not after. you must move to the closest space from which you can attack your opponent. charge is a special action spring attack: when using the attack action... i thus doubt that charge works together with spring attack since charge is not "the attack action" but a special action. if this is really up to discussion we should move it to the rules-board eventually. gs Funny
Qwanga 12-14-03, 02:54 PM	Originally posted by Otto the Bugbear Yeah, or disintegrate, implosion, finger of death, slay living, etc. The contest is about making a fighter-type competing with a cleric-type in the damage dealing department. If you wanted to use assassin levels to help your fighter type deal more damage than the cleric, that's great. But, it's not just about killing something. Cheers Otto :) I guess I see where you're coming from, but I do see this as a fighter using assassin levels to deal out more damage. Granted, the death attack is save or die, but you're still inflicting physical damage with a melee weapon, so I don't think you can equate the assassin death attack to the spells you mention (If they were the same, wouldn't a Death Attack be a spell-like ability?). I'd argue that the assassin actually did deal more damage, we just can't count high enough to tally it up. I'd view the assassin's damage dealt as pretty much the same as the insane damage totals derived from the synergy from feats and spell buffs. But if you don't think the Death Attack is admissable for this competition, that's ok by me. I have to say that this thread is certainly changing my mindset on clerics, though. I may never play a fighter again.
Stoned Golem 12-14-03, 03:17 PM	How about saying that the assassin's death attack and other insta-kill effects do effective damage equal to the target's hitpoints + 10, since that's all it would really take to kill a non-invincible version of whatever it is you're fighting. There can't be any meaningful comparison if it's all "Infinity plus one!" and things like that.
Qwanga 12-14-03, 03:32 PM	The lack of meaningful comparison was the point I was getting at (albeit in a roundabout, Socratic kind of way), Stoned Golem. I followed the rules (to the letter, if not the spirit) and came up with a ridiculous solution. It's sort of a D&D reductio ad absurdem kind of thing (now watch all the logic people flay me alive for misuse of logic terminology). I think in terms of contests like this, success for X or Y comes down to where you draw your lines. The answer, as near as I can make out, on whether the fighter is a better melee combatant than the cleric is "it depends."
epchristi 12-14-03, 03:49 PM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter i thus doubt that charge works together with spring attack since charge is not "the attack action" but a special action. if this is really up to discussion we should move it to the rules-board eventually. Agreed, but perhaps ride-by was meant, which can work with a charge I believe. Or spirited charge to be more precise.
epchristi 12-14-03, 04:01 PM	Originally posted by Qwanga That's not what epchristi said. He said the slaad had infinite hit points, not that it couldn't die. In theory, you could kill it by drowning it or asyphixiating it, too. It's true, I wasn't as clear on the rules perhaps as I should have been, and this is another interesting loophole. Well done! :) So far the builds have been fun to look at, I have learned a lot. Most importantly, I am learning that a cleric who wastes all of his spells is an amazing one hit wonder.. for about 20-100 minutes! :) That can come in use.. I have also learned, that average damage isn't the best way to asses a fighter. They use other abilities.. like sunder, sneak attacks, stuns and other feats to their benefit, which aren't as easiliy quantified as pure damage. Hopefully a few more builds show up, as I think it's very interesting, even if it doesn't prove the point I expected it to. Thanks to everyone participating, it's been very educational! :)
Neonsamurai 12-14-03, 04:10 PM	Originally posted by Qwanga The lack of meaningful comparison was the point I was getting at (albeit in a roundabout, Socratic kind of way), Stoned Golem. I followed the rules (to the letter, if not the spirit) and came up with a ridiculous solution. It's sort of a D&D reductio ad absurdem kind of thing (now watch all the logic people flay me alive for misuse of logic terminology). I think in terms of contests like this, success for X or Y comes down to where you draw your lines. The answer, as near as I can make out, on whether the fighter is a better melee combatant than the cleric is "it depends." JESUS! Do we now already need to put up a fifty pages rules set for such a simple contest just to prevent people from bragging about how cool they can find a loophole ? Why don't you just play the game by the spirit ... :rolleyes:
SuperThread 12-14-03, 04:48 PM	Okay, here's a fighter. I'm pretty sure I have messed up many times; if so, please forgive me, as I was half asleep when I worked out the details of this build. Orc Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Psychic Warrior 1/Frenzied Berserker 1/Shiba Protector 1 32 Point Buy: Str: 16 -> 20 (24 with magic and advancement, 34 with frenzy) Dex: 15 Con: 8 Int: 15 -> 13 Wis: 14 (16 with magic) Cha: 8 -> 6 Skills of Importance: Ride 13 ranks AC: 21 (10 base + 8 full plate + 1 enhancement + 2 dexterity), 19 on a charge Items: Ring of Girallon’s Blessing at will: 30000 gp Ring of Lion’s Charge at will: 4000 gp Gauntlets of Ogre Power: 4000 gp Periapt of Wisdom (+2): 4000 gp Pegasus Egg: 2000 gp +1 Mithril Full Plate: 4800 gp 8 Lances: 80 gp Feats (9): Mounted Combat Ride-by Attack Spirited Charge Headlong Rush Multiweapon Fighting Improved Multiweapon Fighting Expertise Iron Will Alertness Attacks: 8 lances +21/+16, +23/+18 on a charge Damage: 1d8 + 15, 4d8 + 60 on a charge (*4 for Headlong Rush, Spirited Charge, and Heavy Lance) Tactics: Charge and make a full attack. Retreat. Rinse and repeat. Ave. Damage per two rounds (1 round to attack, 1 round to retreat): For the primary attacks: [18/20 (no threat or automatic miss) * 78 (average damage) + 1/20 (threat) * 19/20 (confirm) * 3 * 78 + 1/20 * 1/20 (threat, no confirm) * 78] * 8 (8 lances) = ~652 For the secondary attacks: [18/20 * 78 + 1/20 * 19/20 * 3 * 78 + 1/20 * 1/20 * 78] * 8 = ~652 Average damage per round = 652 Damage after ten rounds: 6520
Qwanga 12-14-03, 05:13 PM	Originally posted by Neonsamurai Why don't you just play the game by the spirit ... :rolleyes: That's an interesting sentiment from a guy whose website is about "The Art of Abusing D&D 3E".
Neonsamurai 12-14-03, 05:25 PM	Ah nice a cynist. Dude that's a whole lot different can of worms. I only show what's possible within the D&D rules set. The site has nothing to do with a contest that was created in good spirit. Yes i min/max. Yes i am sometimes a power gamer, but first and foremost i am a sportsman.
Zoloft 12-14-03, 05:39 PM	Most importantly, I am learning that a cleric who wastes all of his spells is an amazing one hit wonder.. for about 20-100 minutes! 1. the phb-only build I posted last was just to satisfy those who argue that anything in a supplement book is suspect and favors the cleric. "Wasing all of his spells" for this contest is no different than a fighter picking all of his feats, gear and classes just to keep up with or better what a cleric can do on autopilot. 2. almost nobody plays in a phb-only game 3. my original cleric build, and every cleric I have played for real uses no more than 6 or 7 spells for daily buffs at any level, and below 10th its more like 4. That is hardly "all of his spells". Its barely 20% of them (6 out of 30) at 10th. But in any case my noncore cleric build had no less than 3 hour duration going, and mostly was 20+hours. effectively all day even without Divine Power. 4. both the level selected and the prep time limit on this contest were engineered to favor the fighter or minimize the clerics advantage. however each class has a nonlinear power advancement: at L1 fighters are more powerful, and at L20 spellcasters are the most powerful. so asking who is better at melee output really depends on the level. The level setting was supposedly to minimize complications of spells like Miracle; but everyone knows by L15 a cleric is nigh unstoppable. And for those who think Persistent spells are unfair; a quickened Divine Power/Favor works just as well for the same level spell; and only using two persistent spells ever is hardly abusive.
Zoloft 12-14-03, 05:41 PM	And I haven't seen a core only ftr yet...
SuperThread 12-14-03, 09:19 PM	:bump:
SuperThread 12-14-03, 09:20 PM	Any comments on the fighter build I posted?
GooseOfMercy 12-14-03, 09:30 PM	I never said in grappling that you would fight the cleric. You said yourself they aren't fighting eachother. I also said an Enlarged Half-Ogre that would be Huge, right? So then it would just be a matter of starting the grapple. This would do barely any damage just be able to have the slaad not do damage. Core only fighter: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave Magic Items: Bag of Holding with most amount of rats possible in it. :angel: SuperThread, I like your fighter you get a :cookie:
SuperThread 12-14-03, 11:26 PM	After I made that build I realized it could be min/maxxed further with the following changes: Orc Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Psychic Warrior 2/Frenzied Berserker 1 Str: 36 Dex: 15 Con: 8 Int: 13 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 Items: Ring of Girallon’s Blessing at will: 30000 gp Ring of Lion’s Charge at will: 4000 gp Gauntlets of Ogre Power: 4000 gp Pegasus Egg: 2000 gp +1 Mithril Full Plate: 4800 gp 8 Masterwork Lances: 2480 gp Feats: Mounted Combat Ride-by Attack Spirited Charge Headlong Rush Power Attack Multiweapon Fighting Power Lunge Improved Multiweapon Fighting Weapon Focus (Lance) Weapon Specialization (Lance) AB: +22/+17, +24/+19 on charge Damage: 1d8 + 16 Tactics: Same as last build, but on a charge Power Attack for 6 on primary attacks and 1 on secondary attacks. Assuming that Power Lunge only adds an extra multiple of strength on and does not actually let you treat your strength mod as doubled, the damage is as follows: Damage (primary attack): 4d8 + 101 (22 * 4 + 13), average 119 Damage (secondary attack) 4d8 + 81 (17 * 4 + 13), average 99 Total Primary Damage: [18/20 * 119 + 19/400 * 357 + 1/400 * 119] * 8 = ~995 Total Secondary Damage: [18/20 * 99 + 19/400 * 297 + 1/400 * 99] * 8 = ~827 Two Rounds: 1822 One Round: 911 Ten Rounds: 9110:behold:
epchristi 12-15-03, 12:44 AM	:cool: The only thing I think the rule stated, was that no single magic item could cost more than half your wealth. 30,000gp was more than half. But this was definitely in the spirit of the law, and a very solid fighter-type build. Wohoo!
Zoloft 12-15-03, 01:10 AM	Power attack subtracts the same amount from all attacks made in a round...
PhaedrusXY 12-15-03, 05:25 AM	Here is a PHB and DMG only rogue build. Of course, it only has one level of a +1 BAB class, so I'm not sure it's what you're looking for. But it can dish out damage like nobody's business. I'm beginning to see that "fighter" builds aren't really about how much damage you can do, as some have already stated. If you want to deal damage, play a rogue or caster. If you want to be able to take damage and use cool combat abilities and feats (Trip, etc) then play a fighter. Human Barbarian1/rogue9 Max UMD Skill Feats: TWF, ITWF, Wpn Focus: Short sword, Combat Reflexes, Expert Tactician Stats Str 18 (26 with rage, items, and level ups) +8 mod Dex 17 Int 11 the rest: 8 Level up points go into Str Equipment Scroll of Greater Invisibility at caster level 10 (1000 gold) Weapons: 2 viscious frost short swords (16,000 gold each) Boots of Speed (10,000 gold) Guantlets of Oger Power +2(4,000) round 1: Activate Boots (free), read the scroll (standard), rage (free), move to slaad round 2-10: 4 attacks per round at +15 attack bonus and 2 more at +10 attack bonus, all for 9d6+9 damage each (average 40.5 each) or 10d6+18 on a crit (53 average). Vs. AC 18: Hit chance on +15 attacks is 90% Hit chance on +10 attacks is 65% Crit chance on +15 attacks is 9% Crit chance on +10 attacks is 6.5% So 81% of the +15 attacks will be normal hits, and 9% will be crits and 58.5% of the +10 attacks will be normal hits, and 6.5% will be crits. In 9 rounds of swinging, that is 54 attacks at +15 and 18 attacks at +10. 81% of 54 is about 44 hits. 44 times 40.5 is 1782. 9% of 54 is about 5 hits. 5 times 53 is 265. 58.5% of 18 is 10.5 hits. 10.5 times 40.5 is 425.5. 6.5% of 18 is about 1 hit. 1 times 53 is 53. Total damage is 1782+ 265 +425 +53 =2525 EDIT: Had to tweak a couple things. Of course, this rogue would take 210 damage from the Viscious enchantment on his own swords during this, which would easily be enough to kill him without healing. :D Replacing that enchantment with another elemental enchantment instead would decrease the damage done to the Slaad by 210.
epchristi 12-15-03, 06:45 AM	Very cool.. fighter/rogue types making a comeback. ;)
SuperThread 12-15-03, 10:24 AM	Triple Post.
SuperThread 12-15-03, 10:24 AM	Triple Post.
SuperThread 12-15-03, 10:25 AM	Originally posted by Zoloft Power attack subtracts the same amount from all attacks made in a round... Sorry, I forgot about that. That makes the damage of the primary and secondary hands the same, which brings the total damage down to 8270. Still quite respectable. Also, if I turn that item of Girallon's Blessing into a 4 uses per day its value drops to 24000 gp (500 less than half) and I only lose one round of damage.
bitnine 12-15-03, 11:44 AM	I think the real winner of this thread are the Rings of Lion's Charge. For only a 4 digit price, definately sign me up. It's just the sort of giant shot in the arm that many fightery types can use in a contest like this.
GooseOfMercy 12-15-03, 04:56 PM	PhaedrusXY, You could change your weapon to rapiers lowering your Attack Bonus by 2. But if you threw in a potion of Enlarge Person the weapons would be at -2, -2 and you would get +2 str. That could min/max your build for a little bit better dmg
GooseOfMercy 12-15-03, 04:56 PM	PhaedrusXY, You could change your weapon to rapiers lowering your Attack Bonus by 2. But if you threw in a potion of Enlarge Person the weapons would be at -2, -2 and you would get +2 str. That could min/max your build for a little bit better dmg.
Qwanga 12-15-03, 05:13 PM	Hey, epchristi, I've lost track. Who's winning so far - fighter or cleric?
epchristi 12-15-03, 05:21 PM	It looks like SuperThread's Orc Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Psychic Warrior 2/Frenzied Berserker 1 Ten Rounds: 9110 dmg is winning Honorable mention might be Qwanga.. with the "infinite" damage loophole. ;)
PhaedrusXY 12-15-03, 05:36 PM	Originally posted by GooseOfMercy PhaedrusXY, You could change your weapon to rapiers lowering your Attack Bonus by 2. But if you threw in a potion of Enlarge Person the weapons would be at -2, -2 and you would get +2 str. That could min/max your build for a little bit better dmg. It would take a round to drink the potion. You might be able to get a permanent Enlarge Person item or something, but I was aiming to keep the build core PHB and DMG only. Also, you'd have to lose some magic item or another, since he's at the 49,000 gold cap now.
Otto the Bugbear 12-15-03, 05:40 PM	Originally posted by SuperThread Ten Rounds: 9110:behold: Yikes, quite impressive. One thing though that wasn't figured was the Slaad attacking you. With that 21 AC he's hitting you with an 8 or better and that build may not survive the beating with only an 8 con. HP would be: 1d12, + 6d10, + 2d8, + 1d12, -10 = 62 Might not survive the battle to deal all that damage. Also, what does the Pegasus Egg do? Also, how did you get 36 strength? Also, Power Attack is for all attacks until the following round, so you can't split it up and get P.A. for 6 on primary hand and P.A. for 1 on secondary hands. Also, how did you get 8 arms? Need to be large to get 3 extra pairs of arms and I didn't see anything making the character large size. Also, Will save DC 19 with a +5 (?) will save against Girallon's Blessing? I don't have Psionic's Handbook, so I don't know of that P.W. gives a good will save or not. If you fail the save, -2 to attack and other stuff, which may affect your numbers. Also, you forgot the horse and equipment. Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge specifically state "When mounted and using the charge action...". Easy to do since you're under the gold piece limit, but it should be added for clarity. Also, Lance is a two-handed weapon unless wielded from the back of a mount. If on foot, you can only wield 4 of them when you have 8 arms (which you may not get; see above about Girallon's Blessing). Please forgive me if that Pegasus Egg takes care of all that stuff, but for 2000 gold pieces I doubt it. I also don't have Savage Species in hand, so that info about Girallon's Blessing may be inaccurate. Even with these problems, it's still going to end up a massively powerful build. Cheers Otto :)
epchristi 12-15-03, 05:46 PM	Oh.. you are right.. I didn't look at it that closely.. good call otto.. perhaps we end up with categories. ;) I will spend some time on it tonight to look a little closer at the builds.
SuperThread 12-15-03, 08:06 PM	Originally posted by Otto the Bugbear Yikes, quite impressive. Thank you! Let me see if I can assauge some of your concerns. First, though, let me say that I took into account that you can't use different power attack numbers for different attacks. This brings the damage down to 8270. One thing though that wasn't figured was the Slaad attacking you. With that 21 AC he's hitting you with an 8 or better and that build may not survive the beating with only an 8 con. HP would be: 1d12, + 6d10, + 2d8, + 1d12, -10 = 62 This wasn't part of the challenge, but you are right. However, in my second build, I did not need the 15 Int (which became 13 with racial mods and was used for Expertise, which in turn was used for Shiba Protector). This means that my build could instead have 16 dex and 14 con. AC goes up a point, and the HP goes to 92. Might not survive the battle to deal all that damage. Well, barring divine intervention, the Slaad would die on the first turn. The changes to the ability scores would make the build more survivable, though. Also, what does the Pegasus Egg do? The fighter rides the Pegasus. I did it because 1) The Pegasus is much hardier than a heavy warhorse, 2) Pegasi can fly, which is nice, and 3) Pegasi are cool :D. Also, how did you get 36 strength? 18 base + 4 racial + 2 advancement + 2 enhancement + 10 frenzy. Also, Power Attack is for all attacks until the following round, so you can't split it up and get P.A. for 6 on primary hand and P.A. for 1 on secondary hands. I know, I messed up there. See above. Also, how did you get 8 arms? Need to be large to get 3 extra pairs of arms and I didn't see anything making the character large size. Girallon's Blessing. Also, Will save DC 19 with a +5 (?) will save against Girallon's Blessing? I don't have Psionic's Handbook, so I don't know of that P.W. gives a good will save or not. If you fail the save, -2 to attack and other stuff, which may affect your numbers. Hmmm. I don't have SS on me, but later I'll post the average damage assuming a failed save. Also, you forgot the horse and equipment. Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge specifically state "When mounted and using the charge action...". Easy to do since you're under the gold piece limit, but it should be added for clarity. I ride the Pegasus. Also, Lance is a two-handed weapon unless wielded from the back of a mount. If on foot, you can only wield 4 of them when you have 8 arms (which you may not get; see above about Girallon's Blessing). See above answer. Please forgive me if that Pegasus Egg takes care of all that stuff, but for 2000 gold pieces I doubt it. I also don't have Savage Species in hand, so that info about Girallon's Blessing may be inaccurate. No problem :). I don't have SS on hand either, so we may both be wrong. Even with these problems, it's still going to end up a massively powerful build. Cheers Otto :) Thanks for all of your help! I really appreciate it. :)
Otto the Bugbear 12-15-03, 08:41 PM	Originally posted by SuperThread This wasn't part of the challenge, but you are right. However, in my second build, I did not need the 15 Int (which became 13 with racial mods and was used for Expertise, which in turn was used for Shiba Protector). This means that my build could instead have 16 dex and 14 con. AC goes up a point, and the HP goes to 92. "Each contestant will fight a Blue Slaad." I guess I could have clarified this more, but I really didn't think it could be read as "Each contestant will beat on a Blue Slaad without mercy and without worrying about defense." :D Well, barring divine intervention, the Slaad would die on the first turn. The changes to the ability scores would make the build more survivable, though. Yes it would, which is why we had to add the "infinite hit points" part. Iku Rex's contest had quite a bit more wording with a new creature appearing and absorbing the left over damage from the first one, etc., etc. It was just simpler to state that it had infinite hit points. The fighter rides the Pegasus. I did it because 1) The Pegasus is much hardier than a heavy warhorse, 2) Pegasi can fly, which is nice, and 3) Pegasi are cool :D. Ahh, I see. You buy a Pegasus egg and raise it to be your mount. Very creative. :tiphat: 18 base + 4 racial + 2 advancement + 2 enhancement + 10 frenzy. Should it not have been: 18 base +2 racial +2 advancement +2 enhancement +6 frenzy +4 rage? Half-Orcs only get +2 strength. Regular orcs are not a PHB race. I admit that I messed up this one too (as did Funny). Girallon's Blessing. Girallon's Blessing only gives a character 3 extra pairs of arms if he is large size when the spell is cast upon him. Since half-orcs are medium, and there is nothing to increase his size that I've seen on the build. Plus, once you increase size, you'll need a larger mount to ride. Hmmm. I don't have SS on me, but later I'll post the average damage assuming a failed save. Groovy. No problem :). I don't have SS on hand either, so we may both be wrong. I'm used to it. ;) Cheers Otto :)
The Hanged Man 12-15-03, 09:02 PM	Another question, Superthread. How do you avoid multiclassing penalties?
SuperThread 12-15-03, 09:21 PM	Originally posted by The Hanged Man Another question, Superthread. How do you avoid multiclassing penalties? I don't. I would never actually play this build, you know ;). If you really wan't to avoid them, replace the PW levels with fighter levels. You will gain one point of BAB and lose one feat (along with some other minor abilities).
Zoloft 12-15-03, 10:10 PM	Phaedrus: The Slaad has an AC of 20 according tho the post by toftof. I don't have the book so I can't confirm that but assuming that its ac20 you would need to adjust the damage results. also you figured the chance of hitting, and hit adjusted crit damage incorrectly. ab +15 vs ac20=75% chance of hitting ab +10 vs ac20=50% chance of hitting avg 65% chance over all 5 attacks avg chance of threat+crit is 6.5% I'm not sure how to calculate crit damage on your sneak attacks (I'm not a sneaky type) but assuming your numbers are right then ((40.5*.65)+(12.5*.065))*5=135.69 dmg per round, starting in round 2 where the 12.5 is the additional damage from critting 5 round total 543 10 round total 1222 in your post you calculated the extra damage from crit based on full crit damage and added it to your damade from hits which had already taken into account a roll of 19-20 as a hit, effectively inflating your damage by 10%. I'm sure that was not your intention.
SuperThread 12-15-03, 10:21 PM	OK, here is yet another version of my fighter. The total damage is 8412 after ten rounds. Half-Orc Barbarian 1/Fighter 6/Psychic Warrior 2/Frenzied Berserker 1 HD: 1d12 + 6d10 + 2d8 + 1d12 + 40 (HP: 100) Abilities: Str: 38 (18 base + 2 racial + 2 advancement + 4 enhancement + 6 frenzy + 4 rage + 2 enlarge) Dex: 16 (16 base) Con: 18 (14 base + 4 frenzy) Int: 6 (8 base - 2 racial) Wis: 8 (8 base) Cha: 6 (8 base - 2 racial) All calculated as though on a charge, in frenzy, with Enlarge, and with a failed save on Girallon’s Blessing: AC: 17 Attacks: 8 Masterwork Light Lances +23/+18 Damage: 4d6 + 83 (Average: 97) Skills: Ride 13 ranks, Ride +16. Feats: Mounted Combat Ride-by Attack Spirited Charge Headlong Rush Power Attack Multiweapon Fighting Improved Multiweapon Fighting Power Lunge Weapon Focus (Light Lance) Weapon Specialization (Light Lance) Items: Ring of Girallon’s Blessing 1/day: 6000 gp Ring of Lion’s Charge at will: 4000 gp Belt of Giant Strength (+4): 16000 gp Pegasus Egg: 2000 gp +1 Mithril Full Plate: 4800 gp 8 Masterwork Light Lances: 2448 gp 2 Potions of Enlarge (15th CL): 1500 gp Pegasus Training: 1000 gp Tactics: Charge and make a full attack, Power Attacking for 5 (average damage: 117). Retreat. Repeat. Damage (for each attacking round): Primary Attacks: [9/10 * 117 + 57/400 * 117] * 8 = 975.78 Secondary Attacks: [13/20 * 117 + 42/400 * 117] * 8 = 706.68 Damage for two fighting rounds: 1682.46 Damage after ten rounds: 8412.3 TOTAL DAMAGE: 8412
Zoloft 12-15-03, 10:33 PM	How is it that you can attack with a lance in each hand without using feats to get multiple attacks and without penalties to attacking with your off-hand(s)? to keep this question simple let's assume a normal (enlarged) human charges mounted with a lance in each hand (only has two arms). He can make an attack with both lances without rolling twice and with no penalties? where are the rules for that?
Zoloft 12-15-03, 10:44 PM	let me rephrase that: I don't have all of the books so I don't get the way your 8 lances work. I see the Multiweapon feats you listed but if they apply equally to 8 arms then that seems a bit overpowered.
SuperThread 12-15-03, 11:15 PM	Originally posted by Zoloft How is it that you can attack with a lance in each hand without using feats to get multiple attacks and without penalties to attacking with your off-hand(s)? The fighter build I posted takes -2 to each attack due to the penalties of multiweapon fighting. to keep this question simple let's assume a normal (enlarged) human charges mounted with a lance in each hand (only has two arms). He can make an attack with both lances without rolling twice and with no penalties? where are the rules for that? He'll take -6 and -10, respectively. If he has Multiweapon Fighting, Improved Multiweapon Fighting and access to Lion's Charge he can get off four attacks.
PhaedrusXY 12-15-03, 11:16 PM	Originally posted by Zoloft Phaedrus: The Slaad has an AC of 20 according tho the post by toftof. I don't have the book so I can't confirm that but assuming that its ac20 you would need to adjust the damage results. also you figured the chance of hitting, and hit adjusted crit damage incorrectly. ab +15 vs ac20=75% chance of hitting ab +10 vs ac20=50% chance of hitting avg 65% chance over all 5 attacks avg chance of threat+crit is 6.5% I'm not sure how to calculate crit damage on your sneak attacks (I'm not a sneaky type) but assuming your numbers are right then ((40.5*.65)+(12.5*.065))*5=135.69 dmg per round, starting in round 2 where the 12.5 is the additional damage from critting 5 round total 543 10 round total 1222 in your post you calculated the extra damage from crit based on full crit damage and added it to your damade from hits which had already taken into account a roll of 19-20 as a hit, effectively inflating your damage by 10%. I'm sure that was not your intention. The Slaad has a dex mod of +2, which it would be denied to my rogue/barbarian. So it's effective AC is 18 vs. my character and strategy. To calculate damage on the crits, I added in the base damage of the weapon, Str mod, and +1 enhancement bonus again, as per the rules. As to your second comment, I reduced the total % of normal hits by the % amount that were critical hits. For example, I said that 90% of the higher attack bonus swings were hits. Then I said that 9% of the swings with the high attack bonus would be criticals. I used 81% for the number of successful normal hits with the higher attack bonus, not 90%, when calculating damage. 81+9=90%. So of the swings at the higher attack bonus, 81% were normal hits and 9% were criticals for a total hit ratio of 90%. In other words, I treated the critical hits as a subset of successful attacks. I don't think there is anything wrong with my math. Look at it again.
Zoloft 12-16-03, 02:12 AM	Phaedrus: Now that you explained it, I stand corrected. Looks like your math was good after all.
Zoloft 12-16-03, 04:10 AM	A tweak of my previous build, does not do as well as a charging build, but I hate those anyway (and Girallon is waay messed up). But if we are gonna use one shot spells... L10 cleric of Anhur: War, Strength Str 18 (20 for L10) +6 for Divine Power= 26 Wis 18 Buffs: Persistent Divine Favor +3 (24 Hours) Persistent Bless (24 Hours) Extended Spikes (20 hours) Extended GMW +3 (20 Hours) Feats: Extend, Persistent, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, power attack Gear: +1 Vicious Holy Duskwood Falchion (17.8K) Ring of Persistent Divine Power 1 use (6k) Ring of Persistent Recitation 1 use (+3 luck to attack) (6k) Amulet of Righteous Wrath of the Faithful 1 use (+2 morale to attack and damage, +1 attack per round)(4550) Boots of Speed (12K) BAB: +10/+5 modified AB: +31/+31/+31/+26 Modified with -10 Power attack: +21/+21/+21/+16 Chance to hit ac20%: 95,95,95,85 avg % hit of all rolls=%92.5 Damage: 2d4+12+10+3+3+20+2+1+14=70 avg .925*70=64.75 avg damage per attack before crits Crit range 15-20=30% threat per atack. chance of successful threat and crit=27.75% .2775*64.75=17.97 64.75+17.97=82.72*4= 331 avg damage per round starting in round 2 Strength domain adds 14 damage on round #2 5 rounds = 1338 10 rounds = 2993
PhaedrusXY 12-16-03, 04:15 AM	Where are you getting your 4th attack per round from? I see the Boots of Speed, but that only gets you up to three.
Zoloft 12-16-03, 04:24 AM	Righteous Wrath of the Faithful gives another one although I have to use my first round activationg it so I only get 9 rounds of attacks.
Zoloft 12-16-03, 04:31 AM	SuperThread, a couple questions on your build; 1. if you are enlarged, can your pegasus still carry you? 2. Did you spend combat round(s) drinking your potion(s) of enlarge and activating your ring of Girallon's Blessing? I think the guideline was only buffs that lasted longer than either 10/30 minutes or an hour could be used pre battle, depending on which post you are trying to satisfy.
Funny Slaughter 12-16-03, 04:43 AM	ou can only wield 4 of them when you have 8 arms can you really fight with 8 weapons when you have 8 arms? i was under the impression that you can use the extra arms for more bang on power attack, but nothing else. have to re-read, though. otherwise i will get my build doing over 10k points, especially when i can ignore my defense. (dont know if i have so much time this week, eventually not...) gs Funny
PhaedrusXY 12-16-03, 04:43 AM	Originally posted by Zoloft Righteous Wrath of the Faithful gives another one although I have to use my first round activationg it so I only get 9 rounds of attacks. Ah. What book is that from?
Eagle Prince 12-16-03, 07:23 AM	If fighters get all these custom rings, then I want my guy to also have a ring of girillon blessing 1/day rightous might 1/day and this wrath of the faithful spell, that gives him 4 attacks per round that only miss on a natural 1 and over 220 damage per hit. Someone could figure that out if they want, but its going to be insanely high even without crits. Heck, I'll figure it out roughly. 4 attacks will miss on average from a 1, 4 (at least) will crit. So 32 * 220 = 7040 from normal hits, plus 3520 from crits for over a thousand. bleh. Er, excuse me 10 thousand.
Funny Slaughter 12-16-03, 07:42 AM	and i thought the point to show was if fighters or clerics are stronger. if you strip the clerics spellcasting with rules and go and allow the just nerfed spells within customized items for the fighter there is no big question who wins out. can one really use 8 weapons with girallons blessing? i thought you could only use the arms to strengthen your power attack... gs Funny
Eagle Prince 12-16-03, 08:03 AM	They don't give you any extra attacks, that's what the spell says (in fact, it even implies IMO that you don't even get the extra Str damage, only the ability to hold more things and maybe use a 2-handed weapon with 1.5 Str plus shield at the same time). You take a -2 penalty using them unless you make a Will save DC 20 or something. However with multiweapon fighting, I dunno... that seems kind of in the air, b/c you are getting the extra attacks from a feat not a spell. Could go either way I suppose. I was just using it for the extra x3 strength mod just to show how lame the spell is. And yes I think fighter builds using them are stupid in this case (not in an actual game of course, then you just do whatever you can to not get killed, heh). I also don't think its fair for the cleric to be using non 3.5 spells though either. My frenzied berserker was 100% 3.5, just phb and complete warrior. But you can argue this the other way too, since all the cleric builds that actually oust the fighter builds are using fighter feats and even some fighter prcs and such. I like whoever said fighters are truely about doing good damage and awesome tactics. Controlling the battlefield tactically is just, if not more, important than doing massive damage. Oh yes, and Zolofts latest build, minus the stupid spikes spell (and maybe wrath of the faithful, would need to see that spell first to judge), that's the type of cleric build I look at and say thats badass, not the builds that do 8000+ damage because of all these rather stupid splatbook buffs and totally broken double-damage charge weapons. Spirited Charge and lances and even deadly charge is fine, a weapon that deals double damage on a charge for a +1 or +2 modifier is lame (admit it). Oh yeah, and pounce is one of the lamest abilities of all time IMO, even for monsters. It should only give like a free rake attack or something (that also needs an attack roll, not auto-hit crap).
epchristi 12-16-03, 10:16 AM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter and i thought the point to show was if fighters or clerics are stronger. Actually no.. the point was to see who was a better fighter. There is a subtle but very important difference. I think the question has already been answered, but not in a way I suspected. In general, I think a buffed cleric can do more damage in direct melee, for a short period of time. 20-100min. :) I think what makes a good fighter, are the other abilities they can have. (Sunder, Disarm, Trip, Spring Attack come to mind that I have read.) This doesn't translate into more damage, necessarily, however. The other thing that makes the fighter better is that it's abilities last all day long and can't be dispelled. All that said, I think the winner of this contest-- as stated-- will eventually be a cleric build. It's been fun to see how "over the top" some of these items make things.. especially 8 arms. ;) But I still think a fighter makes a better fighter, not because they do more damage (they don't), but because of their tactics, which this contest won't really show.
Funny Slaughter 12-16-03, 11:36 AM	But I still think a fighter makes a better fighter but only if he can fight a nice where a ton of feats is really used. i would say that nearly every build can be done better with other classes. and the theory about clerics being better only 20min a day is wrong. even without persistant spell clerics can do more damage then a fighter that is not hyperspecialized. and hey can control he battlefield. and use utility spells. and... there is a reason why i dont play clerics :behold: gs Funny
epchristi 12-16-03, 12:11 PM	I don't think a fighter has to be highly specialized to be useful and better in most situations. All the cleric builds I have seen posted are in fact better because of the spells they cast. I never saw an instance without persistent where the cleric did more damage overall.. Quickened made it close.. It also pointed out that the clerics used all their spells to accomplish the task (at least at 10th level).. and therefore, after the 100minutes, became a much less effective PC than the fighter. The point of fighters, at least from this example, is not if they are in nice situations where feats are usable, but that they can use those feats in all situations. A a chance to sunder always works against a weapon.. A fighter can create opportunities to use those feats.. and in fact, due to the number of feats, all fighters are highly specialized.. whether done well or not. The fact that a 10th level cleric is only good for a small fraction of a day, I think was proven by this thread.. as most the cleric builds used up 60% of their spells to have a 20-100minutes of buffs, along with some that lasted 20 hours..
Funny Slaughter 12-16-03, 12:20 PM	this thread proved nothing. my cleric build used all his spells to buff because this was the most optimal choice to get into this encounter. even without persistant spell and without using too many slots for buffing a cleric will be better then a fighter after a given level, lets say 7. a charging fighter on the horseback is useless if his horsey gets killed, quite an easy task. you then have some character with a good BAB as his only quality. even with dispel magic in the game i think spells are a much better choice then feats. gs Funny
epchristi 12-16-03, 12:45 PM	I think killing the horse is no easier task than dispelling spells. With a targeted dispel, there is a chance all spells the cleric has go away. On average half will go away. With a fighter on a horsey.. or pegasus.. or dragon.. the rider can use his ride-check to negate attacks.. I am not a "charger" player, but I know the ride check can be used to negate attacks.. Sure, the cleric can slay the horse outright with spells, but he needs to be within a relatively small range.. something that a good fighter can easily stay out of. Horshoes of speed easily make a 100ft/round horse.. and a charge they get the double move.. which is 200ft.. so the cleric can move 50' (assuming hasted in full plate) and still be out of the range for some of the worst spells. But.. flame strike is possible from that range.. but the horse gets evasion if it's a paladin's.. And this all goes back to what I said on another thread.. You can sit and talk about it endlessly, but there is usually a way to balance just about anything a PC does.. whether it's the uber cleric, or the uber charger, or whatever. Sorcerer's rock, unless you smack them real hard.. d4 doesn't lend itself to many hitpoints. But you have to close on them. Fighters are great in melee, (and distance if archers) but they aren't versatile when it comes to spells. Monks are my favorite to play, and have situational strategies that can drive a DM nuts, but they are all certainly counterable.. just have a high AC and fortitude save. (They make a fun arcane spell caster stopper.) I play a cleric, because the group needs healing. For the most part, Melee is not a tactic unless they need it. The fighter in our group, an archer, repeatedly dishes out more damage a round than anyone else in our group.. but his bow is +1 with shock and frost and with 3.5 rules.. it hits just about anything.. I will say this. Playing a cleric in 1E was nearly no fun at all. You healed the party and carried a mace. I never played 2E.. but 3E they have some flavor. With spells, they can do more than just heal the party.. which I think is a good addition. Should righteous might and divine power both be enchantment bonuses to strength.. perhaps. Should divine favor be an enchantment bonus instead of a luck bonus.. perhaps.. Or should Divine Power be more similar to Tenser's transformation, in which they can't use spells when in that form? Perhaps. But in the end, I think it's balanced. Sure, you can make a one-hit wonder.. and they are very impressive. The knowledge of all the rules and books astounds me. (But most of which wouldn't be available in our party, because we don't use FRCS.) At 20th level, they can persistently be that way too.. well, until it's dispelled.. but that's not really the point. At 20th level.. everything is pretty nasty. The biggest conclusion I came away with, is perhaps the fighter should have higher skills.. perhaps 4/level. and gain tumble and some other useful skills to their repetoire. (But then the monk should get 6/level like the ranger.) ;)
SuperThread 12-16-03, 01:00 PM	Originally posted by Zoloft SuperThread, a couple questions on your build; 1. if you are enlarged, can your pegasus still carry you? 2. Did you spend combat round(s) drinking your potion(s) of enlarge and activating your ring of Girallon's Blessing? I think the guideline was only buffs that lasted longer than either 10/30 minutes or an hour could be used pre battle, depending on which post you are trying to satisfy. 1. I also had a potion of Enlarge for the Pegasus. 2. They both had duration as long as or longer than 15 minutes. After seeing all these controversial posts, perhaps we should ban Girallon's Blessing.
Otto the Bugbear 12-16-03, 05:15 PM	I don't think we should ban Girallon's Blessing. I do however think that perhaps we should re-read the entry for Multiattack. The prerequisite is "three or more natural attacks". With Girallon's Blessing being a duration based effect, I'd have to say the character's with that feat no longer qualify. IMO, a character can't take a feat unless he qualifies for it at all times. He can't get a magical effect put on him, then accept the experience points to level up, thus qualifying for a feat such as this. This would be similar to a cleric casting Divine Power to get a higher BAB then taking a feat with a minimum BAB requirement. It just doesn't jive very well. One thing this feat is doing a good job of is pointing out all the little things we forgot to put into the contest rules. Things like multiclass experience penalties apply and will drop a character below the noted level; no custom made magic items; you'll be fighting said monster, not beating on it without retaliation, etc. Nothing wrong with the builds entered. They follow the letter of the rules that were laid out, if not the spirit I intended them to bring to the contest. Cheers Otto :)
Funny Slaughter 12-16-03, 07:48 PM	i remember the white dragon challnge and many others and yes, the rules are the most important part. in fact its more work to put up the challenge then to entry most combatants. i didnt manage to get into the white dragon contest, i was too stunned by the tactics used by experienced caster players there. i know the rules and many spells, but i lack the experience to combine them in maximum effectivity. i think you have learned a lot about how to make a challenge, and eventually the next time the topic is something less obvious :) so that we actually need all these rules. gs Funny
Zoloft 12-17-03, 09:10 PM	I don't have time to quote everybody so this post is to whomever it may concern. 1. Righteous wrath of the Faithful is a 7th Level Cleric spell from DotF. 2. epchristi, my build only used about 4 spells cast from the cleric's inventory. Even if you eliminate the custom magic item silliness, that is a far cry from a cleric using "all his spells". And the buffs lasted 20-24 hours, which is nowhere near the 20-100 minutes that people are thinking applies to the most important part of the build. Clerics can kick ass all day long at very little cost. No, it's not the most damage ever, but it is very practical. 3. I agree Girallon/s Blessing/Multiattack is either wrong or broken; either way it should not work the way it's being used because it's clearly against the established balance of the d20 system when used in that way. 4. SuperThread, if you have to feed a potion to your pegasus then you are spending 3 out of 10 combat rounds bffing that you didn't take into account, including your ring of GB. 5. If Fighters are good due to tactical use of their Feats, Clerics are better due to tactical use of their nonbuffing spell inventory; ie shatter vs sunder, briar web vs trip, wall of stone vs charging,etc. Battlefield control is all about tactics and there is where a cleric excels. 6. EaglePrince, I appreciate the compliment. And you are very correct a major flaw in the D20 system is multiplication of damage due to strength effects, which break the usual rule of multiples only adding to each other. ie str*two handed weapon+power attack+more than two arms*charging*crit=broken system. Get rid of that "loophole" and almost all of the fighter builds on this thread fall apart.
SuperThread 12-17-03, 09:21 PM	Originally posted by Zoloft 4. SuperThread, if you have to feed a potion to your pegasus then you are spending 3 out of 10 combat rounds bffing that you didn't take into account, including your ring of GB. Everything had a duration of at least 15 minutes.
SuperThread 12-17-03, 09:21 PM	Originally posted by Zoloft 4. SuperThread, if you have to feed a potion to your pegasus then you are spending 3 out of 10 combat rounds bffing that you didn't take into account, including your ring of GB. Everything had a duration of at least 15 minutes.
Qwanga 12-19-03, 11:09 AM	Originally posted by epchristi And this all goes back to what I said on another thread.. You can sit and talk about it endlessly, but there is usually a way to balance just about anything a PC does.. whether it's the uber cleric, or the uber charger, or whatever. For me, this is really the key: the character's 'uber-ness' can be always be countered. Utility in a range of situations is where its at, but a 'generalist' character doesn't dish out the smack as well as a tightly-focused one. I have to agree with Funny when he mentions that creating the challenge is more difficult than competing in it. These optimizers are a resourceful and tricky bunch. I think a lot of people might have lost their sense of humour when a contest they developed didn't go according to their plan. So I say well done, epchristi.
Qwanga 12-19-03, 11:09 AM	Originally posted by epchristi And this all goes back to what I said on another thread.. You can sit and talk about it endlessly, but there is usually a way to balance just about anything a PC does.. whether it's the uber cleric, or the uber charger, or whatever. For me, this is really the key: the characters 'uber-ness' can be always be countered. Utility in a range of situations is where its at, but a 'generalist' character doesn't dish out the smack as well as a tightly-focused one. I have to agree with Funny when he mentions that creating the challenge is more difficult than competing in it. These optimizers are a resourceful and tricky bunch. I think a lot of people might have lost their sense of humour when a contest they developed didn't go according to their plan. So I say well done, epchristi.
The Hanged Man 12-19-03, 02:25 PM	Originally posted by SuperThread 1. I also had a potion of Enlarge for the Pegasus. 2. They both had duration as long as or longer than 15 minutes. After seeing all these controversial posts, perhaps we should ban Girallon's Blessing. A potion of Enlarge would have no effect on a Pegasus - it's not a person. Just use a huge flying creature instead. There's tons. Or use an advanced griffon or something, they're huge.