A Character with Wings? [Archive] - Wizards Community

A Character with Wings? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Duncs
09-19-06, 03:59 PM Hi there all you knowledgeable types

I have a problem. One of my friends insists on playing a character with wings in our upcoming campaign, or at least one who can get them relatively soon.

We are gonna be gestalt, starting at level one, and as our starting levels we can take one side as a +1 LA if we so wish. So thats the leeway for templates, races etc. Not much, sorry =]

Ok, things that occurred to me, and reasons why they didnt work:

1) Raptoran. Apparantly he just plain doesnt want to, and also the fly speed is wrong (see the draconic stuff)
2) Draconic + Dragon Wings feat + Improved Dragon Wings feat. Apparantly, not being able to fly at will for as long as he wants stops this from being viable. Anything involving flying for con bonus rounds at a time is out.
3) Aasimar / Tiefling + feats for Outsider wings. We are playing good characters, so tiefling is out (no Chaotic Good Drow complexes here, we hope. Playing one of the few good Tieflings repenting for the sins of their kin etc is just annoyingly badly RP-cliche) Also, he doesnt like the membranous wings. It can only be feathery it seems. However, Aasimar are too lawful and paladinly for his liking, and dont give the stats he wants.

His concept is a damage/utility gish, hopefully a Psion//Duskblade of some sort. Int and Dex are VERY important to him.

So, any help? Is there a method of getting feathery wings usable whenever he wants (essentially) using feats and at most a +1 LA template or race, which hasnt been mentioned yet?

I am at the end of my tether with his crazy restrictions and yet massive conviction that he NEEDS wings, but anyhoo, better to hopefully find a solution than gripe.

Thanks in advance

Duncs
Necromas
09-19-06, 04:06 PM The good old wings of flying or boots of flying items would suffice.

Otherwise, there is one option you missed, the winged template, gives nice fly speed, perfect maneuverability, and a couple other perks I think, but the template is LA +2, but this isnt an option with the +1 LA limit.

This certainly goes against the good theme, but you can get fiendish graft feathered wings.

The improved dragon wings feat eventually gets you permanent flight, once you reach 12HD you can do it as long as you want.

Of course, none of these can you get at level 1.

P.S. You could be an anthropomorphic bird from Savage Species, unfortunately they have small size (except eagle, which has 2HD so you cant have it at level 1 anyways), and most of em have str penalties. Would work good for a dex based duskblade though.
Duncs
09-19-06, 04:08 PM Thanks for the suggestions. Winged is the best template, but at +2 its pretty high, too high for us.

Apparantly, magic items just wont cut it. He *has* to have bona fide wings, proper ones, like what a bird has :P (dont ask me why)
carnivore
09-19-06, 04:13 PM try 1/2 Fey...get wings, big boost to attributes and some nice Spell-like abilities all for +2LA

:D
Necromas
09-19-06, 04:16 PM try 1/2 Fey...get wings, big boost to attributes and some nice Spell-like abilities all for +2LA

:D

Too bad he cant take more then +1 LA.
Duncs
09-19-06, 04:16 PM Wow, a very nice template! Unfortunately, +2 =[
carnivore
09-19-06, 04:19 PM put Favored Soul on one side of the gestalt.....@ 18th lvl, IIRC....you get wings;)

:D
carnivore
09-19-06, 04:22 PM look here for Level adjusted races...transition classes....get Wings early

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a

:D
ornsjach
09-19-06, 04:46 PM Aasimar + feats for Outsider wings. We are playing good characters.It can only be feathery it seems. However, Aasimar are too lawful and paladinly for his liking, and dont give the stats he wants.

Note-No where in the rules does it say that Aasimar half to be
Lawful or paladinly! After all, my Niece Plays a chaotic Good Aasimar Warmage Pirate. This is the exact opposite of the paladin like image most Aasimar have.
GaffeR
09-19-06, 05:12 PM I would actually go with Aasimar+Outsider wings.

If you're playing a Psion, pick up EK (Metamorphisis) and do all the silly things that come with changing yourself into outsiders.

Why can't you be a non-evil Tiefling?
MorandirNailo
09-19-06, 05:17 PM You could talk to the DM about basically cutting the Winged template in half - get the wings, but not the stat adjustments. I'd say that would fit in the +1 LA category.

Mor
X-Codes
09-19-06, 05:31 PM Slap him and tell him to play a Raptorian. A Raptorian Duskblade with Power Attack and a Glaive is a nasty fighter. If he wants to fly, tell him to make really good Jump checks and glide a lot.
Duncs
09-20-06, 02:38 PM Some excellent solutions (especially the slapping him and telling him not to be do damn stupid).

Cant be a good tiefling because thats almost as cliche as a good drow. It would be taking the race for the benefits and ignoring the penalties, essentially (although this is the CO boards, so that may not come into it much here ;))

Anyways, thanks all =]
PhaedrusXY
09-20-06, 03:37 PM Tell him to shutup and play the Aasimar. They don't have any lawful inclinations at all. He can play a descendant of a Chaotic Good Outsider, if he wants RP backup. He probably doesn't like the favored class because it might mean he takes an XP penalty for mixing his gish classes. However, since Aasimars are outsiders, they get martial weapon proficiency. So he doesn't need to dip into fighter or something to get into Eldritch Knight, etc.
WizO_Autumn
09-20-06, 10:03 PM If you want a relatively simple way- the feat "Starspawn" in Lords of Madness lets you grow wings. You have to have abberant blood (another feat) to do it, but it's an option if you want to take a non winged race (you have to be humanoid).

--Though, there is a con dependant time on the flight, so he probably won't like the flavor of it. Plus the wings are feathery, they are membraneous, like bat's wings.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
09-20-06, 10:10 PM Uh -- well, I know you said that he think it's "wrong" but raptorian really is the answer. Limited fly at 5HD & Full fly @ 10HD. Throw on aerial heritage or air heritage from planar handbook for a +30 to fly speed. Total speed = 70 (you spend 1 feat & have no LA)

What more could you ask for?

Improved flight could up your maneuverability to good.
PhaedrusXY
09-20-06, 10:19 PM I wouldn't bother with Improved Flight. Just take Hover and Wingover. You basically get Perfect flight for two feats.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
09-20-06, 11:16 PM Or you can spend 1 feat & grab the item from the dragonomicon that bumps your maneuverability up one step. Either way works.
Dnjscott
09-20-06, 11:29 PM There are a lot more benefits to Perfect Maneuverability (upwards speed, ability to take off straight up, for instance) than Hover and WIngover replace...
AZNsupermarket
09-20-06, 11:35 PM 3 choices all with +0 LA:

draborn of bahamut (races of the dragon)
raptoran (races of destiny)
kobold with dragon wings feat (races of the dragon)
Prominence
09-21-06, 01:01 AM Wings are pretty easily obtained by a level 6 cleric using Divine Metamagic Persist / occular spell and the Celestial Aspect spell.

Just incase the DM doesn't allow any template and race stuff already mentioned.
King Bulba
09-21-06, 05:43 AM Tell him to shutup and play the Aasimar. They don't have any lawful inclinations at all. He can play a descendant of a Chaotic Good Outsider, if he wants RP backup. He probably doesn't like the favored class because it might mean he takes an XP penalty for mixing his gish classes. However, since Aasimars are outsiders, they get martial weapon proficiency. So he doesn't need to dip into fighter or something to get into Eldritch Knight, etc.
I agree. I hate racial biases, just because he is an orc doesn't mean he is evil. I am not saying be a CG TWF drow. I am saying people make their own destinies. Just because you have a tendence to be evil as a tiefling or good as an aasimar doesnt mean they will be, that is what we call a sterotype. Not all black people like fried chicken, though hehe my friend Sean does hehe.

I once played a campaign where I played a tiefling and aasimar and the tiefling was good(sort of) and the aasimar was hedonistic and selfish. I enjoyed the role reversal. It was the tiefling getting the aasimar out of trouble.

So what does this mean? Tell him to play a friggen aasimar. His ansestor doesn't need to be an angel. My groups current aasimar has a discendent from coutles and he has rambow colored wings like them. I would allow the aasimar favored class reflect his ansestorty so CG would not have favored class Paladin. Aasimar is so generic it doesnt take that into consideration. That is up to you to decide if that is acceptable though.
Hesparex
09-21-06, 09:05 AM The Rainbow Servant.
kadeity
09-21-06, 09:56 AM well. If it was i, id play a warlock, get the fell flight invocation and take flyby attack. Sure you dont get feathery wings, and you only ahve good manuverability, but you can go ZOOM IN-EDRITCH BLAST-ZOOM AWAY...
Duncs
09-21-06, 02:08 PM I agree. I hate racial biases, just because he is an orc doesn't mean he is evil. I am not saying be a CG TWF drow. I am saying people make their own destinies. Just because you have a tendence to be evil as a tiefling or good as an aasimar doesnt mean they will be, that is what we call a sterotype.

I agree with this, on the Lawful-Chaotic scale of things, however in the case of tieflings and aasimars i feel that the best they can achieve is neutrality - they are part-paragons of the ultimate good / evil. As the MM1 says in tieflings, 'carrying the taint of evil in their very souls...' for tieflings. Now, even with this i agree you could get a good tiefling, major life choice and all that, but this seems to me to be two things: Firstly, HORRIBLY cliche. Secondly, its a cheap RP rules hack to get the benefits of tiefling (dex and int, mainly) over those of aasimar. If you want to play a character who has celestial/fiendish blood, you play the one that matches the alignment that you want (or the closest) rather than picking the one with the better rules and stat boni and then RPing a way to allow you to play it, IMO.

But yes, thanks once more for the deluge of responses of varying degrees of power and ease. *sigh* he is still set in his ways though.

Duncs
CygnusDarius
09-21-06, 03:32 PM Well, if your friend doesn't mind playing a LA +2, and large, Dragonkin are pretty awesome, they have natural weapons and Detect Magic at will.

Otherwise, slap him silly and tell him to play a Raptoran :p .
Nelyo
09-22-06, 03:17 PM I agree with this, on the Lawful-Chaotic scale of things, however in the case of tieflings and aasimars i feel that the best they can achieve is neutrality - they are part-paragons of the ultimate good / evil. As the MM1 says in tieflings, 'carrying the taint of evil in their very souls...' for tieflings. Now, even with this i agree you could get a good tiefling, major life choice and all that, but this seems to me to be two things: Firstly, HORRIBLY cliche. Secondly, its a cheap RP rules hack to get the benefits of tiefling (dex and int, mainly) over those of aasimar. If you want to play a character who has celestial/fiendish blood, you play the one that matches the alignment that you want (or the closest) rather than picking the one with the better rules and stat boni and then RPing a way to allow you to play it, IMO.

But yes, thanks once more for the deluge of responses of varying degrees of power and ease. *sigh* he is still set in his ways though.

Duncs

Heh, you want to talk about cliches, being an aasimar or tiefling and following your heritage is such a cliche. How many good aasimars or evil tieflings are there? Just about all of them.

Not to mention the fact that people enjoy characters who are exceptions to the rules or expectations. That's what heroes are, and that's why characters like Drizzt are so memorable.

In reality, it's just about impossible to make a character without using a cliche or stereotype. It's probably not even worth trying as what you're left with once you eliminate every single cliche or stereotype often isn't worth playing. What's important is what you do to make the cliche your own. A Chaotic Good drow who dual wields scimitars and is full of angst is cliche. A Chaotic Good drow who considers his race beyond redemption, or at least that the overwhelming number of evil drow outweighs any good the occasional redeemed one does, and decides to kill every last one of them including himself once he's the last left is also cliche. But it's also interesting and clearly not a Drizzt clone.

Anyway, to get back on topic, if you have FR material, you could try the avariel elves (Does anyone have the stats on these?). They have feather-like wings. If all else fails, you are the DM. Just give him wings like he wants and slap a +1 LA on him. You don't have to use something that Wizards published in a book.
Duncs
09-22-06, 03:51 PM I agree, cliches become cliches because they are wanted/good, as a rule.

There are a lot of good aasimars in the same way that there are a lot of dextrous elves. Its not a life choice its part of their nature. In this case, you are making a life choice and changing from the norm in the same way that everyone does. However, thats beside the point. THe main reason I dislike his decision is that it is clear that he is using RP merely as a step around to get the same character but with better stats. He wants to be a good outsider, but he wants int and dex. Thus, he chooses Tiefling and 'RPs his way around it' so to speak. He doesnt want to be a tiefling specifically, its just the best crunch way of getting it and he changes his concept in order to fit this crunch in.

But anyways, all this RP talk is probably against CO board rules or something ^^

Thanks for the suggestion too btw

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duncs 09-19-06, 03:59 PM	Hi there all you knowledgeable types I have a problem. One of my friends insists on playing a character with wings in our upcoming campaign, or at least one who can get them relatively soon. We are gonna be gestalt, starting at level one, and as our starting levels we can take one side as a +1 LA if we so wish. So thats the leeway for templates, races etc. Not much, sorry =] Ok, things that occurred to me, and reasons why they didnt work: 1) Raptoran. Apparantly he just plain doesnt want to, and also the fly speed is wrong (see the draconic stuff) 2) Draconic + Dragon Wings feat + Improved Dragon Wings feat. Apparantly, not being able to fly at will for as long as he wants stops this from being viable. Anything involving flying for con bonus rounds at a time is out. 3) Aasimar / Tiefling + feats for Outsider wings. We are playing good characters, so tiefling is out (no Chaotic Good Drow complexes here, we hope. Playing one of the few good Tieflings repenting for the sins of their kin etc is just annoyingly badly RP-cliche) Also, he doesnt like the membranous wings. It can only be feathery it seems. However, Aasimar are too lawful and paladinly for his liking, and dont give the stats he wants. His concept is a damage/utility gish, hopefully a Psion//Duskblade of some sort. Int and Dex are VERY important to him. So, any help? Is there a method of getting feathery wings usable whenever he wants (essentially) using feats and at most a +1 LA template or race, which hasnt been mentioned yet? I am at the end of my tether with his crazy restrictions and yet massive conviction that he NEEDS wings, but anyhoo, better to hopefully find a solution than gripe. Thanks in advance Duncs
Necromas 09-19-06, 04:06 PM	The good old wings of flying or boots of flying items would suffice. Otherwise, there is one option you missed, the winged template, gives nice fly speed, perfect maneuverability, and a couple other perks I think, but the template is LA +2, but this isnt an option with the +1 LA limit. This certainly goes against the good theme, but you can get fiendish graft feathered wings. The improved dragon wings feat eventually gets you permanent flight, once you reach 12HD you can do it as long as you want. Of course, none of these can you get at level 1. P.S. You could be an anthropomorphic bird from Savage Species, unfortunately they have small size (except eagle, which has 2HD so you cant have it at level 1 anyways), and most of em have str penalties. Would work good for a dex based duskblade though.
Duncs 09-19-06, 04:08 PM	Thanks for the suggestions. Winged is the best template, but at +2 its pretty high, too high for us. Apparantly, magic items just wont cut it. He has to have bona fide wings, proper ones, like what a bird has :P (dont ask me why)
carnivore 09-19-06, 04:13 PM	try 1/2 Fey...get wings, big boost to attributes and some nice Spell-like abilities all for +2LA :D
Necromas 09-19-06, 04:16 PM	try 1/2 Fey...get wings, big boost to attributes and some nice Spell-like abilities all for +2LA :D Too bad he cant take more then +1 LA.
Duncs 09-19-06, 04:16 PM	Wow, a very nice template! Unfortunately, +2 =[
carnivore 09-19-06, 04:19 PM	put Favored Soul on one side of the gestalt.....@ 18th lvl, IIRC....you get wings;) :D
carnivore 09-19-06, 04:22 PM	look here for Level adjusted races...transition classes....get Wings early http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040319a :D
ornsjach 09-19-06, 04:46 PM	Aasimar + feats for Outsider wings. We are playing good characters.It can only be feathery it seems. However, Aasimar are too lawful and paladinly for his liking, and dont give the stats he wants. Note-No where in the rules does it say that Aasimar half to be Lawful or paladinly! After all, my Niece Plays a chaotic Good Aasimar Warmage Pirate. This is the exact opposite of the paladin like image most Aasimar have.
GaffeR 09-19-06, 05:12 PM	I would actually go with Aasimar+Outsider wings. If you're playing a Psion, pick up EK (Metamorphisis) and do all the silly things that come with changing yourself into outsiders. Why can't you be a non-evil Tiefling?
MorandirNailo 09-19-06, 05:17 PM	You could talk to the DM about basically cutting the Winged template in half - get the wings, but not the stat adjustments. I'd say that would fit in the +1 LA category. Mor
X-Codes 09-19-06, 05:31 PM	Slap him and tell him to play a Raptorian. A Raptorian Duskblade with Power Attack and a Glaive is a nasty fighter. If he wants to fly, tell him to make really good Jump checks and glide a lot.
Duncs 09-20-06, 02:38 PM	Some excellent solutions (especially the slapping him and telling him not to be do damn stupid). Cant be a good tiefling because thats almost as cliche as a good drow. It would be taking the race for the benefits and ignoring the penalties, essentially (although this is the CO boards, so that may not come into it much here ;)) Anyways, thanks all =]
PhaedrusXY 09-20-06, 03:37 PM	Tell him to shutup and play the Aasimar. They don't have any lawful inclinations at all. He can play a descendant of a Chaotic Good Outsider, if he wants RP backup. He probably doesn't like the favored class because it might mean he takes an XP penalty for mixing his gish classes. However, since Aasimars are outsiders, they get martial weapon proficiency. So he doesn't need to dip into fighter or something to get into Eldritch Knight, etc.
WizO_Autumn 09-20-06, 10:03 PM	If you want a relatively simple way- the feat "Starspawn" in Lords of Madness lets you grow wings. You have to have abberant blood (another feat) to do it, but it's an option if you want to take a non winged race (you have to be humanoid). --Though, there is a con dependant time on the flight, so he probably won't like the flavor of it. Plus the wings are feathery, they are membraneous, like bat's wings.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 09-20-06, 10:10 PM	Uh -- well, I know you said that he think it's "wrong" but raptorian really is the answer. Limited fly at 5HD & Full fly @ 10HD. Throw on aerial heritage or air heritage from planar handbook for a +30 to fly speed. Total speed = 70 (you spend 1 feat & have no LA) What more could you ask for? Improved flight could up your maneuverability to good.
PhaedrusXY 09-20-06, 10:19 PM	I wouldn't bother with Improved Flight. Just take Hover and Wingover. You basically get Perfect flight for two feats.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 09-20-06, 11:16 PM	Or you can spend 1 feat & grab the item from the dragonomicon that bumps your maneuverability up one step. Either way works.
Dnjscott 09-20-06, 11:29 PM	There are a lot more benefits to Perfect Maneuverability (upwards speed, ability to take off straight up, for instance) than Hover and WIngover replace...
AZNsupermarket 09-20-06, 11:35 PM	3 choices all with +0 LA: draborn of bahamut (races of the dragon) raptoran (races of destiny) kobold with dragon wings feat (races of the dragon)
Prominence 09-21-06, 01:01 AM	Wings are pretty easily obtained by a level 6 cleric using Divine Metamagic Persist / occular spell and the Celestial Aspect spell. Just incase the DM doesn't allow any template and race stuff already mentioned.
King Bulba 09-21-06, 05:43 AM	Tell him to shutup and play the Aasimar. They don't have any lawful inclinations at all. He can play a descendant of a Chaotic Good Outsider, if he wants RP backup. He probably doesn't like the favored class because it might mean he takes an XP penalty for mixing his gish classes. However, since Aasimars are outsiders, they get martial weapon proficiency. So he doesn't need to dip into fighter or something to get into Eldritch Knight, etc. I agree. I hate racial biases, just because he is an orc doesn't mean he is evil. I am not saying be a CG TWF drow. I am saying people make their own destinies. Just because you have a tendence to be evil as a tiefling or good as an aasimar doesnt mean they will be, that is what we call a sterotype. Not all black people like fried chicken, though hehe my friend Sean does hehe. I once played a campaign where I played a tiefling and aasimar and the tiefling was good(sort of) and the aasimar was hedonistic and selfish. I enjoyed the role reversal. It was the tiefling getting the aasimar out of trouble. So what does this mean? Tell him to play a friggen aasimar. His ansestor doesn't need to be an angel. My groups current aasimar has a discendent from coutles and he has rambow colored wings like them. I would allow the aasimar favored class reflect his ansestorty so CG would not have favored class Paladin. Aasimar is so generic it doesnt take that into consideration. That is up to you to decide if that is acceptable though.
Hesparex 09-21-06, 09:05 AM	The Rainbow Servant.
kadeity 09-21-06, 09:56 AM	well. If it was i, id play a warlock, get the fell flight invocation and take flyby attack. Sure you dont get feathery wings, and you only ahve good manuverability, but you can go ZOOM IN-EDRITCH BLAST-ZOOM AWAY...
Duncs 09-21-06, 02:08 PM	I agree. I hate racial biases, just because he is an orc doesn't mean he is evil. I am not saying be a CG TWF drow. I am saying people make their own destinies. Just because you have a tendence to be evil as a tiefling or good as an aasimar doesnt mean they will be, that is what we call a sterotype. I agree with this, on the Lawful-Chaotic scale of things, however in the case of tieflings and aasimars i feel that the best they can achieve is neutrality - they are part-paragons of the ultimate good / evil. As the MM1 says in tieflings, 'carrying the taint of evil in their very souls...' for tieflings. Now, even with this i agree you could get a good tiefling, major life choice and all that, but this seems to me to be two things: Firstly, HORRIBLY cliche. Secondly, its a cheap RP rules hack to get the benefits of tiefling (dex and int, mainly) over those of aasimar. If you want to play a character who has celestial/fiendish blood, you play the one that matches the alignment that you want (or the closest) rather than picking the one with the better rules and stat boni and then RPing a way to allow you to play it, IMO. But yes, thanks once more for the deluge of responses of varying degrees of power and ease. sigh he is still set in his ways though. Duncs
CygnusDarius 09-21-06, 03:32 PM	Well, if your friend doesn't mind playing a LA +2, and large, Dragonkin are pretty awesome, they have natural weapons and Detect Magic at will. Otherwise, slap him silly and tell him to play a Raptoran :p .
Nelyo 09-22-06, 03:17 PM	I agree with this, on the Lawful-Chaotic scale of things, however in the case of tieflings and aasimars i feel that the best they can achieve is neutrality - they are part-paragons of the ultimate good / evil. As the MM1 says in tieflings, 'carrying the taint of evil in their very souls...' for tieflings. Now, even with this i agree you could get a good tiefling, major life choice and all that, but this seems to me to be two things: Firstly, HORRIBLY cliche. Secondly, its a cheap RP rules hack to get the benefits of tiefling (dex and int, mainly) over those of aasimar. If you want to play a character who has celestial/fiendish blood, you play the one that matches the alignment that you want (or the closest) rather than picking the one with the better rules and stat boni and then RPing a way to allow you to play it, IMO. But yes, thanks once more for the deluge of responses of varying degrees of power and ease. sigh he is still set in his ways though. Duncs Heh, you want to talk about cliches, being an aasimar or tiefling and following your heritage is such a cliche. How many good aasimars or evil tieflings are there? Just about all of them. Not to mention the fact that people enjoy characters who are exceptions to the rules or expectations. That's what heroes are, and that's why characters like Drizzt are so memorable. In reality, it's just about impossible to make a character without using a cliche or stereotype. It's probably not even worth trying as what you're left with once you eliminate every single cliche or stereotype often isn't worth playing. What's important is what you do to make the cliche your own. A Chaotic Good drow who dual wields scimitars and is full of angst is cliche. A Chaotic Good drow who considers his race beyond redemption, or at least that the overwhelming number of evil drow outweighs any good the occasional redeemed one does, and decides to kill every last one of them including himself once he's the last left is also cliche. But it's also interesting and clearly not a Drizzt clone. Anyway, to get back on topic, if you have FR material, you could try the avariel elves (Does anyone have the stats on these?). They have feather-like wings. If all else fails, you are the DM. Just give him wings like he wants and slap a +1 LA on him. You don't have to use something that Wizards published in a book.
Duncs 09-22-06, 03:51 PM	I agree, cliches become cliches because they are wanted/good, as a rule. There are a lot of good aasimars in the same way that there are a lot of dextrous elves. Its not a life choice its part of their nature. In this case, you are making a life choice and changing from the norm in the same way that everyone does. However, thats beside the point. THe main reason I dislike his decision is that it is clear that he is using RP merely as a step around to get the same character but with better stats. He wants to be a good outsider, but he wants int and dex. Thus, he chooses Tiefling and 'RPs his way around it' so to speak. He doesnt want to be a tiefling specifically, its just the best crunch way of getting it and he changes his concept in order to fit this crunch in. But anyways, all this RP talk is probably against CO board rules or something ^^ Thanks for the suggestion too btw