A closer look at Earth Spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

A closer look at Earth Spell [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
balor64
10-16-06, 08:35 PM In all of those Shadowcraft Mage threads, I see people using metamagic cost reduction to lower the cost of Heighten Spell, and using Earth Spell to increase the spell level boost from Heighten Spell by 1.

The way I read it, Earth Spell is separate from Heighten Spell, it isn't [metamagic], so metamagic slot reduction such as Arcane Thesis doesn't help, and it activates when:If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spells actual level,so its based on the level of spell slot you cast it in, and using metamagic cost reduction on the spell would reduce the benefit.

However, since the effect is based on the "actual level" of the spell, you could cast a Maximized Lightning Bolt with an effective level of 7, and a +3 to caster level. This means that rather than being subject to slot reduction, it lets you use metamagic without sacrificing spell level/save DC.
creepy drifter
10-17-06, 12:47 PM An interesting take on things. I'll reply to this more later when I get home to look at the books.
balor64
10-18-06, 06:23 PM :bump:
fnord
10-21-06, 10:07 AM This is a matter of interpretation, as heighten spell says "A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level)". So the actual level of the spell is, by one reading of the rules, the level it is heightened to.
HelloRaptor
10-21-06, 01:45 PM What he's saying is, I believe, that Earth Spell directly references the spell slot expended rather than the Spell Level of the Heightened spell.

If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level, the spell is treated as a spell of two levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by one.

It then goes on to elaborate on using spell slots even higher, but that isn't important to the discussion as the wording remains the same.

In essence, if I Heighten a spell from 1st to 5th level, it uses a 5th level spell slot, and Earth Spell bumps it up to an effective Spell Level of Spell Slot+1, or 6.

But if you apply some feat to Heighten Spell that would make it use a 4th level spell slot, Earth Spell (by a very literal reading) would only give its bump based on that 4th level Spell Slot, thus only making it a 5... which it already was from Heighten Spell.

From a purely RAW reading, this would seem to be correct. However, I think it's pretty clear that Earth Spell is designed to make your Heighten Spell feat more effective, and so RAI is that the bump from Earth Spell is based off of modified Spell Level, instead of the level of the Spell Slot expended.
FromTheShadows
10-21-06, 03:54 PM From a purely RAW reading, this would seem to be correct. However, I think it's pretty clear that Earth Spell is designed to make your Heighten Spell feat more effective, and so RAI is that the bump from Earth Spell is based off of modified Spell Level, instead of the level of the Spell Slot expended.
If I'm reading this right, I think what you consider to be RAI is actually RAW.

First of all, there's a very important part of the Earth Spell feat that hasn't been pointed out yet. I'm not sure that balor64's view that the feat works for any spell taking up a higher slot actually works out, due to this part of the feat:
As long as you are standing on stone or unworked earth (including normal soil), you can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect.
Second, the Heightened spell would just get bumped up another slot higher than the one it is virtually occuping.
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
In other words, a 1st-level spell Heightened to a 2nd-level slot counts as a 3rd-level spell under the effects of Earth Spell. With Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell), the same spell should cast as a 4th-level spell. I personally can't see where the confusion is at all.
balor64
10-21-06, 03:57 PM What he's saying is, I believe, that Earth Spell directly references the spell slot expended rather than the Spell Level of the Heightened spell.

It then goes on to elaborate on using spell slots even higher, but that isn't important to the discussion as the wording remains the same.

In essence, if I Heighten a spell from 1st to 5th level, it uses a 5th level spell slot, and Earth Spell bumps it up to an effective Spell Level of Spell Slot+1, or 6.

But if you apply some feat to Heighten Spell that would make it use a 4th level spell slot, Earth Spell (by a very literal reading) would only give its bump based on that 4th level Spell Slot, thus only making it a 5... which it already was from Heighten Spell.

From a purely RAW reading, this would seem to be correct. However, I think it's pretty clear that Earth Spell is designed to make your Heighten Spell feat more effective, and so RAI is that the bump from Earth Spell is based off of modified Spell Level, instead of the level of the Spell Slot expended.

That is correct, exept that your first example is a bit off, if a spell is Heightened to 5th, and cast in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would not change the level of the spell, because the level of the spell and the level of the spell slot are the same.

If you Heighten the spell to 5th and apply a slot adjustment reducer, Earth Spell would not change the level of the spell, because the level of the spell is already higher than the level of the spell slot.

But if the spell is only Heightened to 4th, and cast in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would increase the spells level by 2, for a total of 6th level, Earth Spell also increases your caster level by 1 if cast this way.

Now, if you only Heighten the spell to 3rd level, and still cast it in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would increase the spells level by 3, for a total of 6th level, and it would boost your caster level by 2.

So you get the most benefit from Earth Spell if you don't Heighten the spell, and since Earth Spell is not [metamagic], spontaneous casters would not get a casting time increase from Earth Spell.

Also, note what I said in the OP:However, since the effect is based on the "actual level" of the spell, you could cast a Maximized Lightning Bolt with an effective level of 7, and a +3 to caster level. This means that rather than being subject to slot reduction, it lets you use metamagic without sacrificing spell level/save DC.So lets try another example:
If you Heighten the spell to 3rd level, Empower it, and cast it in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would increase the spells level by 3, for a total of 6th level, and it would boost your caster level by 2, AND it would be Empowered!
So you dont lose anything by applying non-Heighten Spell metamagic to your spells!
HelloRaptor
10-21-06, 05:12 PM FromTheShadows:

In other words, a 1st-level spell Heightened to a 2nd-level slot counts as a 3rd-level spell under the effects of Earth Spell. With Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell), the same spell should cast as a 4th-level spell. I personally can't see where the confusion is at all.

Apparently there is some, since I've not seen it used that way. The way I see it used is if I have a 1st level spell that I Heighten to a 2nd level spell, Earth Spell makes it count as a 3rd level spell, but because of Practical Metamagic (or whatever) I'm only blowing a 1st level spell slot for it.

The way I see what you're saying, is that you're applying the Practical Metamagic Bonus as a +1 level bump after you Heighten, which seems backwards. You don't say "I Heighten it to 5th level, and because of Practical Metamagic it counts as a 6th level spell.", as that's just backwards. You're using Heighten Spell to Heighten to 6th level, and because of Practical Metamagic you're only expending a 5th level spell slot to cast that 6th level spell. Earth Spell would (under most readings up until now) then kick in to raise that from 6 to 7, while still using a 5th level spell slot.

Which is the problem, since my point was that Earth Spell very directly references not the Spell Level you're using Heighten Spell to emulate, but the Spell Slot you're using. It doesn't say you get a +1 bump from the level you're Heightening to, but a +1 bump from the spell slot you expend. So Heightening to 6th level and applying the -1 from Practical Metamagic makes Earth Spell redundant since it very clearly states that the spell will count as one level higher than the spell slot used.

Which is pretty dumb. However, reading the post after yours, I think balor64 may be missing something, as you said.

balor64:

That is correct, exept that your first example is a bit off, if a spell is Heightened to 5th, and cast in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would not change the level of the spell, because the level of the spell and the level of the spell slot are the same.

If you Heighten the spell to 5th and apply a slot adjustment reducer, Earth Spell would not change the level of the spell, because the level of the spell is already higher than the level of the spell slot.

But if the spell is only Heightened to 4th, and cast in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would increase the spells level by 2, for a total of 6th level, Earth Spell also increases your caster level by 1 if cast this way.

Now, if you only Heighten the spell to 3rd level, and still cast it in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would increase the spells level by 3, for a total of 6th level, and it would boost your caster level by 2.

Fireball is a 3rd level spell. If I heighten it to 5th level, I am casting it from a spell slot 2 levels higher than "the spell's actual level". The entire text of the Earth Spell feat is directed at modifying what happens when you use Heighten Spell in the manner it is normally used.

The interpretation you're using is so far off track that I'm not even entirely sure how to address it aside from saying "You're wrong.". This is particularily clear by the following quote:

So you get the most benefit from Earth Spell if you don't Heighten the spell, and since Earth Spell is not [metamagic], spontaneous casters would not get a casting time increase from Earth Spell.

You cannot use Earth Spell if you don't Heighten the spell. Earth Spell is in addition to Heighten Spell, not a substitute or replacement or anything else. You still have to Heighten from Slot X to Slot Y, and Earth Spell makes the resulting spell level Y+1.

You have, however, brought up the interesting point that the text of Earth Spell refers directly to Spell Slot used, not Spell Level emulated.
FromTheShadows
10-21-06, 05:50 PM FromTheShadows:
In other words, a 1st-level spell Heightened to a 2nd-level slot counts as a 3rd-level spell under the effects of Earth Spell. With Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell), the same spell should cast as a 4th-level spell. I personally can't see where the confusion is at all.
Apparently there is some, since I've not seen it used that way. The way I see it used is if I have a 1st level spell that I Heighten to a 2nd level spell, Earth Spell makes it count as a 3rd level spell, but because of Practical Metamagic (or whatever) I'm only blowing a 1st level spell slot for it.

The way I see what you're saying, is that you're applying the Practical Metamagic Bonus as a +1 level bump after you Heighten, which seems backwards. You don't say "I Heighten it to 5th level, and because of Practical Metamagic it counts as a 6th level spell.", as that's just backwards. You're using Heighten Spell to Heighten to 6th level, and because of Practical Metamagic you're only expending a 5th level spell slot to cast that 6th level spell. Earth Spell would (under most readings up until now) then kick in to raise that from 6 to 7, while still using a 5th level spell slot.
I probably should've mentioned what exactly Practical Metamagic does, for the sake of clarity. Using Practical Metamagic, you reduce the level adjustment of a metamagic feat by one. For example (without even using Earth Spell), you could Heighten a spell two levels for only a one level adjustment. (Or three levels for two, three for four, etc.) More or less, I meant that things should occur much as you've said in the last sentence of this quote- again, I may have just been unclear.
Which is the problem, since my point was that Earth Spell very directly references not the Spell Level you're using Heighten Spell to emulate, but the Spell Slot you're using. It doesn't say you get a +1 bump from the level you're Heightening to, but a +1 bump from the spell slot you expend. So Heightening to 6th level and applying the -1 from Practical Metamagic makes Earth Spell redundant since it very clearly states that the spell will count as one level higher than the spell slot used.
Again, I have to point to the "All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level" part of the Heighten Spell feat- I'd think that one of the effects dependent on the spell's level is the slot it counts as occuping. That phrase seems pretty ironclad to me, though I could be wrong.
Which is pretty dumb. However, reading the post after yours, I think balor64 may be missing something, as you said.
If worse comes to worse we can take the question to CustServ; I'd do so myself, if not for my e-mail being down again.
HelloRaptor
10-21-06, 07:02 PM Again, I have to point to the "All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level" part of the Heighten Spell feat- I'd think that one of the effects dependent on the spell's level is the slot it counts as occuping. That phrase seems pretty ironclad to me, though I could be wrong.

Except there is no 'counts as occupying'. A spell occupies a slot, period, though it may as 'count as spell level' where spell level is not slot level.

Within the rules, a spell can occupy Slot X while being Spell Level Y. You seem to be suggesting that it should occupy Slot X, while being SPell Level Y, and also count as occupying Slot Y. I find that last step to be dubious, if only because Earth Spell is the only thing that spell slot level (in conjunction with Heighten Spell) matters for, that I can think of off the top of my head.

It's far more likely that Earth Spell is just worded poorly, and is referring to the Spell Level designated by Heighten Spell, rather than the Spell Slot expended, which might be modified by something besides Heighten Spell.
NineInchNall
10-22-06, 02:23 AM It's far more likely that Earth Spell is just worded poorly, and is referring to the Spell Level designated by Heighten Spell, rather than the Spell Slot expended, which might be modified by something besides Heighten Spell.

Ding ding ding! Get that man a cookie! :cookie:
balor64
10-22-06, 04:06 PM You cannot use Earth Spell if you don't Heighten the spell. Earth Spell is in addition to Heighten Spell, not a substitute or replacement or anything else. You still have to Heighten from Slot X to Slot Y, and Earth Spell makes the resulting spell level Y+1.
If you can base this off of anything other than flavor text, then I will try to refute it.

It's far more likely that Earth Spell is just worded poorly, and is referring to the Spell Level designated by Heighten Spell, rather than the Spell Slot expended, which might be modified by something besides Heighten Spell.
It is possible that RAI Earth Spell uses the Heightened level, not the spell slots level, and feel free to houserule it that way. But on the CO boards, we use the RAW, which says spell slot level.
NineInchNall
10-30-06, 11:42 PM Many times on this board we use the RAI; go read the Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization, if you don't believe me. Don't hold up the RAW as if it is holy scripture. In the case of Earth Spell the RAI is trivially obvious, as the feat is written under the assumption of standard feat behavior, and the stated intent of the feat is to allow one to use the Heighten Spell feat more effectively. It's supposed to heighten the spell an extra level and give a caster level boost equal to the amount the spell was heightened. It's as simple as that.
Garjon
11-01-06, 03:03 AM If anyone insists that Earth Spell works as this thread is discussing, then turn the tables to make it more absurd...
Heighten it by one level, and then apply other metamagic. Earth Spell under this interpretation will make the other metamagic function as Heighten as well.
Wanna heighten it by 4 levels? Heighten it by one, and then Empower it.
6 levels? Heighten by one and Quicken!
Ooh ooh! Anyone for a Persistant Shadow Illusion?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
balor64 10-16-06, 08:35 PM	In all of those Shadowcraft Mage threads, I see people using metamagic cost reduction to lower the cost of Heighten Spell, and using Earth Spell to increase the spell level boost from Heighten Spell by 1. The way I read it, Earth Spell is separate from Heighten Spell, it isn't [metamagic], so metamagic slot reduction such as Arcane Thesis doesn't help, and it activates when:If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spells actual level,so its based on the level of spell slot you cast it in, and using metamagic cost reduction on the spell would reduce the benefit. However, since the effect is based on the "actual level" of the spell, you could cast a Maximized Lightning Bolt with an effective level of 7, and a +3 to caster level. This means that rather than being subject to slot reduction, it lets you use metamagic without sacrificing spell level/save DC.
creepy drifter 10-17-06, 12:47 PM	An interesting take on things. I'll reply to this more later when I get home to look at the books.
balor64 10-18-06, 06:23 PM	:bump:
fnord 10-21-06, 10:07 AM	This is a matter of interpretation, as heighten spell says "A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level)". So the actual level of the spell is, by one reading of the rules, the level it is heightened to.
HelloRaptor 10-21-06, 01:45 PM	What he's saying is, I believe, that Earth Spell directly references the spell slot expended rather than the Spell Level of the Heightened spell. If you cast a spell using a spell slot one level higher than the spell's actual level, the spell is treated as a spell of two levels higher and your effective caster level is increased by one. It then goes on to elaborate on using spell slots even higher, but that isn't important to the discussion as the wording remains the same. In essence, if I Heighten a spell from 1st to 5th level, it uses a 5th level spell slot, and Earth Spell bumps it up to an effective Spell Level of Spell Slot+1, or 6. But if you apply some feat to Heighten Spell that would make it use a 4th level spell slot, Earth Spell (by a very literal reading) would only give its bump based on that 4th level Spell Slot, thus only making it a 5... which it already was from Heighten Spell. From a purely RAW reading, this would seem to be correct. However, I think it's pretty clear that Earth Spell is designed to make your Heighten Spell feat more effective, and so RAI is that the bump from Earth Spell is based off of modified Spell Level, instead of the level of the Spell Slot expended.
FromTheShadows 10-21-06, 03:54 PM	From a purely RAW reading, this would seem to be correct. However, I think it's pretty clear that Earth Spell is designed to make your Heighten Spell feat more effective, and so RAI is that the bump from Earth Spell is based off of modified Spell Level, instead of the level of the Spell Slot expended. If I'm reading this right, I think what you consider to be RAI is actually RAW. First of all, there's a very important part of the Earth Spell feat that hasn't been pointed out yet. I'm not sure that balor64's view that the feat works for any spell taking up a higher slot actually works out, due to this part of the feat: As long as you are standing on stone or unworked earth (including normal soil), you can use the Heighten Spell feat to added effect. Second, the Heightened spell would just get bumped up another slot higher than the one it is virtually occuping. A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. In other words, a 1st-level spell Heightened to a 2nd-level slot counts as a 3rd-level spell under the effects of Earth Spell. With Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell), the same spell should cast as a 4th-level spell. I personally can't see where the confusion is at all.
balor64 10-21-06, 03:57 PM	What he's saying is, I believe, that Earth Spell directly references the spell slot expended rather than the Spell Level of the Heightened spell. It then goes on to elaborate on using spell slots even higher, but that isn't important to the discussion as the wording remains the same. In essence, if I Heighten a spell from 1st to 5th level, it uses a 5th level spell slot, and Earth Spell bumps it up to an effective Spell Level of Spell Slot+1, or 6. But if you apply some feat to Heighten Spell that would make it use a 4th level spell slot, Earth Spell (by a very literal reading) would only give its bump based on that 4th level Spell Slot, thus only making it a 5... which it already was from Heighten Spell. From a purely RAW reading, this would seem to be correct. However, I think it's pretty clear that Earth Spell is designed to make your Heighten Spell feat more effective, and so RAI is that the bump from Earth Spell is based off of modified Spell Level, instead of the level of the Spell Slot expended. That is correct, exept that your first example is a bit off, if a spell is Heightened to 5th, and cast in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would not change the level of the spell, because the level of the spell and the level of the spell slot are the same. If you Heighten the spell to 5th and apply a slot adjustment reducer, Earth Spell would not change the level of the spell, because the level of the spell is already higher than the level of the spell slot. But if the spell is only Heightened to 4th, and cast in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would increase the spells level by 2, for a total of 6th level, Earth Spell also increases your caster level by 1 if cast this way. Now, if you only Heighten the spell to 3rd level, and still cast it in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would increase the spells level by 3, for a total of 6th level, and it would boost your caster level by 2. So you get the most benefit from Earth Spell if you don't Heighten the spell, and since Earth Spell is not [metamagic], spontaneous casters would not get a casting time increase from Earth Spell. Also, note what I said in the OP:However, since the effect is based on the "actual level" of the spell, you could cast a Maximized Lightning Bolt with an effective level of 7, and a +3 to caster level. This means that rather than being subject to slot reduction, it lets you use metamagic without sacrificing spell level/save DC.So lets try another example: If you Heighten the spell to 3rd level, Empower it, and cast it in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would increase the spells level by 3, for a total of 6th level, and it would boost your caster level by 2, AND it would be Empowered! So you dont lose anything by applying non-Heighten Spell metamagic to your spells!
HelloRaptor 10-21-06, 05:12 PM	FromTheShadows: In other words, a 1st-level spell Heightened to a 2nd-level slot counts as a 3rd-level spell under the effects of Earth Spell. With Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell), the same spell should cast as a 4th-level spell. I personally can't see where the confusion is at all. Apparently there is some, since I've not seen it used that way. The way I see it used is if I have a 1st level spell that I Heighten to a 2nd level spell, Earth Spell makes it count as a 3rd level spell, but because of Practical Metamagic (or whatever) I'm only blowing a 1st level spell slot for it. The way I see what you're saying, is that you're applying the Practical Metamagic Bonus as a +1 level bump after you Heighten, which seems backwards. You don't say "I Heighten it to 5th level, and because of Practical Metamagic it counts as a 6th level spell.", as that's just backwards. You're using Heighten Spell to Heighten to 6th level, and because of Practical Metamagic you're only expending a 5th level spell slot to cast that 6th level spell. Earth Spell would (under most readings up until now) then kick in to raise that from 6 to 7, while still using a 5th level spell slot. Which is the problem, since my point was that Earth Spell very directly references not the Spell Level you're using Heighten Spell to emulate, but the Spell Slot you're using. It doesn't say you get a +1 bump from the level you're Heightening to, but a +1 bump from the spell slot you expend. So Heightening to 6th level and applying the -1 from Practical Metamagic makes Earth Spell redundant since it very clearly states that the spell will count as one level higher than the spell slot used. Which is pretty dumb. However, reading the post after yours, I think balor64 may be missing something, as you said. balor64: That is correct, exept that your first example is a bit off, if a spell is Heightened to 5th, and cast in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would not change the level of the spell, because the level of the spell and the level of the spell slot are the same. If you Heighten the spell to 5th and apply a slot adjustment reducer, Earth Spell would not change the level of the spell, because the level of the spell is already higher than the level of the spell slot. But if the spell is only Heightened to 4th, and cast in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would increase the spells level by 2, for a total of 6th level, Earth Spell also increases your caster level by 1 if cast this way. Now, if you only Heighten the spell to 3rd level, and still cast it in a 5th level slot, Earth Spell would increase the spells level by 3, for a total of 6th level, and it would boost your caster level by 2. Fireball is a 3rd level spell. If I heighten it to 5th level, I am casting it from a spell slot 2 levels higher than "the spell's actual level". The entire text of the Earth Spell feat is directed at modifying what happens when you use Heighten Spell in the manner it is normally used. The interpretation you're using is so far off track that I'm not even entirely sure how to address it aside from saying "You're wrong.". This is particularily clear by the following quote: So you get the most benefit from Earth Spell if you don't Heighten the spell, and since Earth Spell is not [metamagic], spontaneous casters would not get a casting time increase from Earth Spell. You cannot use Earth Spell if you don't Heighten the spell. Earth Spell is in addition to Heighten Spell, not a substitute or replacement or anything else. You still have to Heighten from Slot X to Slot Y, and Earth Spell makes the resulting spell level Y+1. You have, however, brought up the interesting point that the text of Earth Spell refers directly to Spell Slot used, not Spell Level emulated.
FromTheShadows 10-21-06, 05:50 PM	FromTheShadows: In other words, a 1st-level spell Heightened to a 2nd-level slot counts as a 3rd-level spell under the effects of Earth Spell. With Practical Metamagic (Heighten Spell), the same spell should cast as a 4th-level spell. I personally can't see where the confusion is at all. Apparently there is some, since I've not seen it used that way. The way I see it used is if I have a 1st level spell that I Heighten to a 2nd level spell, Earth Spell makes it count as a 3rd level spell, but because of Practical Metamagic (or whatever) I'm only blowing a 1st level spell slot for it. The way I see what you're saying, is that you're applying the Practical Metamagic Bonus as a +1 level bump after you Heighten, which seems backwards. You don't say "I Heighten it to 5th level, and because of Practical Metamagic it counts as a 6th level spell.", as that's just backwards. You're using Heighten Spell to Heighten to 6th level, and because of Practical Metamagic you're only expending a 5th level spell slot to cast that 6th level spell. Earth Spell would (under most readings up until now) then kick in to raise that from 6 to 7, while still using a 5th level spell slot. I probably should've mentioned what exactly Practical Metamagic does, for the sake of clarity. Using Practical Metamagic, you reduce the level adjustment of a metamagic feat by one. For example (without even using Earth Spell), you could Heighten a spell two levels for only a one level adjustment. (Or three levels for two, three for four, etc.) More or less, I meant that things should occur much as you've said in the last sentence of this quote- again, I may have just been unclear. Which is the problem, since my point was that Earth Spell very directly references not the Spell Level you're using Heighten Spell to emulate, but the Spell Slot you're using. It doesn't say you get a +1 bump from the level you're Heightening to, but a +1 bump from the spell slot you expend. So Heightening to 6th level and applying the -1 from Practical Metamagic makes Earth Spell redundant since it very clearly states that the spell will count as one level higher than the spell slot used. Again, I have to point to the "All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level" part of the Heighten Spell feat- I'd think that one of the effects dependent on the spell's level is the slot it counts as occuping. That phrase seems pretty ironclad to me, though I could be wrong. Which is pretty dumb. However, reading the post after yours, I think balor64 may be missing something, as you said. If worse comes to worse we can take the question to CustServ; I'd do so myself, if not for my e-mail being down again.
HelloRaptor 10-21-06, 07:02 PM	Again, I have to point to the "All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level" part of the Heighten Spell feat- I'd think that one of the effects dependent on the spell's level is the slot it counts as occuping. That phrase seems pretty ironclad to me, though I could be wrong. Except there is no 'counts as occupying'. A spell occupies a slot, period, though it may as 'count as spell level' where spell level is not slot level. Within the rules, a spell can occupy Slot X while being Spell Level Y. You seem to be suggesting that it should occupy Slot X, while being SPell Level Y, and also count as occupying Slot Y. I find that last step to be dubious, if only because Earth Spell is the only thing that spell slot level (in conjunction with Heighten Spell) matters for, that I can think of off the top of my head. It's far more likely that Earth Spell is just worded poorly, and is referring to the Spell Level designated by Heighten Spell, rather than the Spell Slot expended, which might be modified by something besides Heighten Spell.
NineInchNall 10-22-06, 02:23 AM	It's far more likely that Earth Spell is just worded poorly, and is referring to the Spell Level designated by Heighten Spell, rather than the Spell Slot expended, which might be modified by something besides Heighten Spell. Ding ding ding! Get that man a cookie! :cookie:
balor64 10-22-06, 04:06 PM	You cannot use Earth Spell if you don't Heighten the spell. Earth Spell is in addition to Heighten Spell, not a substitute or replacement or anything else. You still have to Heighten from Slot X to Slot Y, and Earth Spell makes the resulting spell level Y+1. If you can base this off of anything other than flavor text, then I will try to refute it. It's far more likely that Earth Spell is just worded poorly, and is referring to the Spell Level designated by Heighten Spell, rather than the Spell Slot expended, which might be modified by something besides Heighten Spell. It is possible that RAI Earth Spell uses the Heightened level, not the spell slots level, and feel free to houserule it that way. But on the CO boards, we use the RAW, which says spell slot level.
NineInchNall 10-30-06, 11:42 PM	Many times on this board we use the RAI; go read the Ten Commandments of Practical Optimization, if you don't believe me. Don't hold up the RAW as if it is holy scripture. In the case of Earth Spell the RAI is trivially obvious, as the feat is written under the assumption of standard feat behavior, and the stated intent of the feat is to allow one to use the Heighten Spell feat more effectively. It's supposed to heighten the spell an extra level and give a caster level boost equal to the amount the spell was heightened. It's as simple as that.
Garjon 11-01-06, 03:03 AM	If anyone insists that Earth Spell works as this thread is discussing, then turn the tables to make it more absurd... Heighten it by one level, and then apply other metamagic. Earth Spell under this interpretation will make the other metamagic function as Heighten as well. Wanna heighten it by 4 levels? Heighten it by one, and then Empower it. 6 levels? Heighten by one and Quicken! Ooh ooh! Anyone for a Persistant Shadow Illusion?