Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tweedledope 06-10-06, 12:05 AM	Okay, this is, first off, a barbarian optimization challenge with one minor exception to the rules. Houserule, my DM has ruled that the Frostrager PrC requires only a +5 BAB to enter (rather than the dreaded +6 which skews off many builds). I just got a copy of the newest Dragon and I LOVE the Thrall of Kostchtchie PrC. I want to attempt to blend the Frostrager and the ToK. I need ya'll's help. So far, I'm up to... Arctic Dwarf (UA Variant) Ape-Totem Barbarian 5/Frostrager 5/Thrall of Kostchtchie 10 Fairly simple...here's how I break it down.. AT Barbarian 1 - Frozen Berzerker AT Barbarian 2 - AT Barbarian 3 - Power Attack*, Improved Unarmed Strike AT Barbarian 4 - AT Barbarian 5 - Frostrager 1 - Thrall to Demon Frostrager 2 - Frostrager 3 - Frostrager 4 - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) Frostrager 5 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 1 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 2 - Extra Rage Thrall of Kostchtchie 3 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 4 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 5 - Endurance Thrall of Kostchtchie 6 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 7 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 8 - Steadfast Determination Thrall of Kostchtchie 9 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 10 - So...anyone have any good ideas for feats aside from those listed above? I HATE taking Endurance to get Steadfast Determination but, I think steadfast determination is WELL worth it. -=TD=- ((Also, quick question: if I started as a Human and took the Jotunbrud feat from Players Guide to Faerun, when I became large sized due to the Thrall of Kostchtchie, do I keep the bonuses from the feat or are they "absorbed" by my new larger size?))
Tweedledope 06-10-06, 09:03 AM	:bump: Nothing?
Burning Duck 06-10-06, 12:45 PM	I'm sorry but Jotunbrud says:...you are treated as Large if that's advantageous to you.Large is different from one size larger so you don't keep the boni. And dwarves can't take Jotunbrud: is for Damaran or Illuskan humans only. I don't own the latest Dragon Magazine, so nothing to say about ToK., but my suggest is to take Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike). Just my :twocents:
Tweedledope 06-10-06, 01:02 PM	Good call on the INA. My damage is already 2d6 thanks to Frostrager and my large size gained through the ToK. So...that makes it 2d8 or 3d6 (I can't ever remember). Thanks again!
Surreal 06-10-06, 02:04 PM	Can you give us a brief rundown of what the Thrall PrC gives? Can you take setting specific feats? Hammerfist from FR gives you 1.5*Str on your unarmed strikes, though you have to be a dwarf. And how about Barbarian 2/Ranger 3? You lose out on a second rage and imp. uncanny dodge, but you pick up Endurance and get TWF works well with your unarmed strikes and especially Rend.
Burning Duck 06-10-06, 02:13 PM	And how about Barbarian 2/Ranger 3? You lose out on a second rage and imp. uncanny dodge, but you pick up Endurance and get TWF works well with your unarmed strikes and especially Rend.He needs Power Attack to qualify for Frostrager, so the Strongarm Ranger (dr310 variant) is a better chioce IMHO
Valanthe 06-10-06, 02:29 PM	Good call on the INA. My damage is already 2d6 thanks to Frostrager and my large size gained through the ToK. So...that makes it 2d8 or 3d6 (I can't ever remember). Thanks again! 3d6. Both 2d6 and 2d8 "size up" to 3d6.
Tweedledope 06-10-06, 02:52 PM	Can you give us a brief rundown of what the Thrall PrC gives? Can you take setting specific feats? Hammerfist from FR gives you 1.5*Str on your unarmed strikes, though you have to be a dwarf. And how about Barbarian 2/Ranger 3? You lose out on a second rage and imp. uncanny dodge, but you pick up Endurance and get TWF works well with your unarmed strikes and especially Rend. Okay...the PrC essentially gives you more rage uses, bonus to intimidate, frost resistance...and, unfortunately, I'm afm right now so, I can't remember the rest. You get bonuses to Str and Con as it progresses too and eventually become large sized at 10th level. Hammerfist would work well with this build being as how I want to be a dwarf anyhow. The reason I went with Ape-Totem Barbarian 5 was to get free Power Attack and the climb speed (the campaign is in a mountainous region and climb checks are essential). -=TD=-
Tweedledope 06-11-06, 10:52 PM	:bump: Hmm...if I went Ape-Totem Barbarian 3/Fighter 2, I would lose 1/day Rage and instead gain two feats...of which I could include Hammerfist, INA and the like...any suggestions? This is really feat intensive. -=TD=-
Necromas 06-11-06, 11:27 PM	3d6. Both 2d6 and 2d8 "size up" to 3d6. Actually, 2d8 sizes up to 3d8, you can check the SRD if you want. 1d8->2d6->3d6 1d10->2d8->3d8
FeceMan 06-12-06, 02:45 AM	I'm sorry but Jotunbrud says:Large is different from one size larger so you don't keep the boni. What? What the hell is that? "Boni"? Is that even an anything?
Tweedledope 06-12-06, 09:09 AM	>_> So, except for grammatical critiques, anyone have any help?
Surreal 06-12-06, 01:50 PM	How about Psychic Warrior 2? instead of Fighter 2? You lose a BAB but gain the obvious psy-goodies that you can use probably thrice a day at most (unless you pump your Wis). Hmm, or maybe War Mind 5 for sweeping strike. That could be interesting with TWF and rend.
Hanniball 06-12-06, 02:08 PM	>_> So, except for grammatical critiques, anyone have any help? Since you hate taking Endurance as a feat, Ranger gets it as a bonus feat at 3rd. A Raging character that has to take Endurance at some point should consider 1 level of Horizon Walker for the Desert Terrains immunity to fatigue. Maybe: Bar 2/Rgr 3/Frostrager 5/ToK 9/Horizon Walker 1 I'm not familiar with the UA variant Barbarian levels so this might not be what you want and the ToK's 10th level class features might be worth more than HW's ablility to keep on swinging when your rage duration ends, but this gives you TWF (or Rapid Shot...), higher saves an you don't have to take Endurace :) Either way...just my 0.02 cp
Tweedledope 06-12-06, 09:44 PM	Yeah, thanks for the help! I'm trying to keep Frostrager 5 and ToK 10 intact as much as possible. The 10th level of ToK is what makes me large sized which is very nice I think (and the ultimate goal of my character)... -=TD=-
Surreal 06-13-06, 03:06 AM	Hmm, similar to what I said before, how about Barbarian 2/Psywar 3? With a reasonable Wis score, that should be just enough to get a double expansion, upping your damage another two steps. edit: aw shoot, just realized that you can't meet the BAB requirements with Psywar. Boourns :(
Auldar 07-21-06, 12:39 AM	Old thread I know, but you linked it :P If you can use Dragon Magazine material, take a look at the Pugilist variant fighter from DM310. The Pugilist is a "boxer". Both Imp. Unarmed Strike and Endurance as free feats at level 1, AND you gain fighter bonus feats from a restricted list (all bonus feats that apply to a weapon type have to be unarmed, but since that's your theme..), which includes Power Attack. You can then choose a more advantageous Barbarian totem. Basically, the first level of Pugilist you take, you get 3 feats you needed (Imp. Unarmed Strike (free), Endurance (free), and Power Attack (ftr)). The next level you get another bonus fighter feat, such as Weapon Focus (unarmed).
Tweedledope 07-21-06, 09:46 AM	Old thread I know, but you linked it :P If you can use Dragon Magazine material, take a look at the Pugilist variant fighter from DM310. The Pugilist is a "boxer". Both Imp. Unarmed Strike and Endurance as free feats at level 1, AND you gain fighter bonus feats from a restricted list (all bonus feats that apply to a weapon type have to be unarmed, but since that's your theme..), which includes Power Attack. You can then choose a more advantageous Barbarian totem. Basically, the first level of Pugilist you take, you get 3 feats you needed (Imp. Unarmed Strike (free), Endurance (free), and Power Attack (ftr)). The next level you get another bonus fighter feat, such as Weapon Focus (unarmed). I feel like I owe you money... -=TD=-
Auldar 07-22-06, 02:27 AM	You're welcome :)
Tweedledope 08-02-06, 12:39 AM	I don't mean to beat an old horse but...let's try this again with the Pugilist variant...remember, this is with my DMs interpretation that the Frostrager should be entered at CL 6 not 7... Arctic Dwarf Ape-Totem Barbarian 3/Pugilist 2/Frostrager 5/ToK 10 Fairly simple...here's how I break it down.. Pugilist 1 - Endurance*, IUS *, Steadfast Determination Pugilist 2 - Power Attack AT Barbarian 1 - Frozen Berzerker AT Barbarian 2 - AT Barbarian 3 - Frostrager 1 - Thrall to Demon Frostrager 2 - Frostrager 3 - Frostrager 4 - Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) Frostrager 5 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 1 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 2 - Hammerfist (AWESOME) Thrall of Kostchtchie 3 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 4 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 5 - Improved Sunder Thrall of Kostchtchie 6 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 7 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 8 - Combat Brute Thrall of Kostchtchie 9 - Thrall of Kostchtchie 10 - Let's see what everyone thinks about that... -=TD=-
Auldar 08-02-06, 01:20 AM	Couple of points - while Crystalkeep shows you lose your first fighter feat on the first level of Pugilist, the text does *not* say that, and it does say it for some of the other variants. As such, you can take another of the fighter feats that are on the Pugilists list at level 1. ie you can take Power Attack at level 1, and different feat that's on his list such as Weapon Focus (unarmed) at level 2. Since you don't need Power Attack from your 3 levels of Ape Totem barbarian, you can change your totem to something fun like Wolf Totem Barbarian which gives you Imp. Trip, *and* you retain your fast movement. Alternatively, if you don't care about losing your fast movement, Bear totem would work well for you too. Toughness, Imp Grapple, and Great Fortitude.
Tweedledope 08-02-06, 09:04 AM	Couple of points - while Crystalkeep shows you lose your first fighter feat on the first level of Pugilist, the text does *not* say that, and it does say it for some of the other variants. As such, you can take another of the fighter feats that are on the Pugilists list at level 1. ie you can take Power Attack at level 1, and different feat that's on his list such as Weapon Focus (unarmed) at level 2. Since you don't need Power Attack from your 3 levels of Ape Totem barbarian, you can change your totem to something fun like Wolf Totem Barbarian which gives you Imp. Trip, *and* you retain your fast movement. Alternatively, if you don't care about losing your fast movement, Bear totem would work well for you too. Toughness, Imp Grapple, and Great Fortitude. Ooh, good find. I totally forgot to drop the Ape-Totem. And, I have the Dragon magazine the Pugilist is in and, you do lose your first level Fighter bonus feat (albeit in exchange for two other feats). -=TD=-
Auldar 08-02-06, 08:10 PM	Ooh, good find. I totally forgot to drop the Ape-Totem. And, I have the Dragon magazine the Pugilist is in and, you do lose your first level Fighter bonus feat (albeit in exchange for two other feats). -=TD=- I've got DM310 too, and I don't see anything that indicates you lose your first bonus feat in exchange for Endurance and IAS. Under bonus feats, it says the Pugilist gains bonus feats as a normal fighter, except they must be selected from a special list. Under Special Abilities, it states you get both Endurance and IAS free at first level. Compare that to the Kensai - The Kensai's Bonus feats section states that you don't get your first fighter feat, but instead gain blah blah. Compare that to the Shield Bearer - The Shield Bearers bonus feats section indicates you must take your first feat as Imp. Shield Bash. I just don't see anywhere for the Pugilist that says you're giving up your first fighter feat to gain those 2 free feats.. You're not getting confused with the combo's are you? It says you can take a combo instead of your bonus feat, but they're not related to the 2 "free" feats.. Please let me know if I'm mistaken, because the build in my sig depends on the level 1 bonus fighter feat of Pugilist.
Tweedledope 08-02-06, 10:30 PM	I've got DM310 too, and I don't see anything that indicates you lose your first bonus feat in exchange for Endurance and IAS. Under bonus feats, it says the Pugilist gains bonus feats as a normal fighter, except they must be selected from a special list. Under Special Abilities, it states you get both Endurance and IAS free at first level. Compare that to the Kensai - The Kensai's Bonus feats section states that you don't get your first fighter feat, but instead gain blah blah. Compare that to the Shield Bearer - The Shield Bearers bonus feats section indicates you must take your first feat as Imp. Shield Bash. I just don't see anywhere for the Pugilist that says you're giving up your first fighter feat to gain those 2 free feats.. You're not getting confused with the combo's are you? It says you can take a combo instead of your bonus feat, but they're not related to the 2 "free" feats.. Please let me know if I'm mistaken, because the build in my sig depends on the level 1 bonus fighter feat of Pugilist. You know, you're right...touché salesman. -=TD=-
Auldar 08-02-06, 11:20 PM	You know, you're right...touché salesman. -=TD=- Glad we agree, and I don't have to change my build :P Looking forward to seeing your updated build.