Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 01-10-07, 11:16 PM	The most powerful classes in D&D are arguably the Cleric, the Druid, and the Wizard. That' not to say that other classes and combinations aren't powerful and useful. However, many people who play the game aren't aware of this. The game can be very deceptive. In the lower levels, warrior types of characters tend to do very well. So my question to you all is, at what points do you believe that Clerics, Druids, and Wizards start outperforming the Fighter, and each other? It's my belief that Druids start out the best, but eventually Clerics surpass them, but then near the end Wizard Surpass them both, of course I'm not sure about exact levels. What do you all think?
jameswilliamogle 01-10-07, 11:18 PM	Druid 6th-up Cleric 7th-up Wizard 15th-up I also think the Druid power wanes compared to the other two around 13th or so, and the Clerics around 17th.
Edea 01-10-07, 11:26 PM	The moment you start making/encountering wondrous items, hehe. Also, outside of combat the Fighter is lacking right from Level 1; the three spellcasters, on the other hand, are not.
fnord 01-10-07, 11:34 PM	It depends on what books you're using. I'm not sure a (straight) Cleric EVER exceeds a Druid in some environments. Nor that a wizard ever beats out a cleric when [Greater] Anyspell is available. The following classes are the best available at the given levels in the given environments: In Core (best guess): Druid 6 or 7 through 11 Cleric 11-15 Wizard 15+ In Core+Completes: Cleric 5-7 Druid 7-9 Cleric 9+ Everything I know of: Cleric (Spell/Transformation) 5+ Note 1: Before level 5, a melee set up some sort (generally fighter/barbarian) is the best. Note 2: This is basically comparing the classes "straight", with no significant power change from PRCs. In general though, I don't think PRCs make that big an impact except for double cast and fast cast PRCs, especially at high levels. Note 3: In some environments at some levels, Psions may be the most powerful class available. In certain specialized cases, it may even go to Sorcerers (Core+Races of the Dragon). Note 4: In many environments, Artificers will be the most powerful DEPENDING ON THE CAMPAIGN. If downtime is available, Artificers are good, if it is scarce, they are terrible. Note 5: A Rogue type, while generally incapable of directly outshining casters at higher levels, is very useful in many campaigns and absolutely vital in some. In others, Rogues are useless. Note 6: At many levels, power is quite dependant upon the skill of player, both in designing and playing the character. This is my experience. Your mileage may vary. Note 7: Party Synergy can do a lot, in many cases. Most of the time, having a Cleric and a Wizard results in a more powerful party than having 2 Clerics or 2 Wizards. Note 8: I have too many notes.
Eela6 01-10-07, 11:40 PM	Druid starts out extremely powerful right from level 1. Level 1 - "Hi. I'm a Druid, and I can cast Sandblast. This makes my enemies drop their weapon and take nonlethal. I also have an animal companion. This can be something fairly decent, like a Riding Dog (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dogRiding.htm), or something with a CR 1 higher than me and an attack for 12.5 damage, like the Crocodile. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/crocodile.htm) (Now confirmed to be 1st-level companion by the sage.) It just gets worse from level 3 on. Wizards start being insanely good about seventh level, when they get stuff that just screws you over, no exceptions (Enervation, Slow, Solid Fog, Fear). Clerics take a little longer to mature. I'd say... level 8 or 9. In any case, they all start being better than Fighters from about level 5, it's simply that a Rogue is as good or better and some of the wierdo classes (Binder, buddy, looking at you) can compete.
fnord 01-10-07, 11:51 PM	Ah, the animal companion. Right. Forget about that, especially now that the crocodile is confirmed at level 1 (before that ruling, I always thought it belonged at 4th level). Ok, this probably puts the druid at most powerful at the first few levels, in all environments. Maybe. Low level melee optimizations can be quite nasty.
DM Denubis 01-11-07, 12:23 AM	I see the Cleric and Wizard as both taking off at around level 7. Fourth level spells is where fighters start to become outdated, in my opinion. Divine Power, Polymorph, Enervation? From there, it only gets worse and worse. I will say, though, that I'm not so sure I agree with the idea that Wizard eventually surpasses Cleric.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 01-11-07, 12:46 AM	You all make some good points. I forgot that there are some other contenders to the throne. Psions, Artificers, and Ardents perhaps? Greater Anyspell is powerful, but that's only 5th level spells (not to say that isn't powerful, it is, but it misses out on some other goodies. Some goodies that Clerics miss out on are 6th level Planar Binding, early Anti-magic field, and Wall of Iron. 7th level Simulacrum and ForceCage. 8th level spells that can't that can't be duplicated with miracle, mindblank, Greater Planar Binding, Polymorph any Object, and irresistable dance. 9th Disjunction, Foresight, Shapechange, and Timestop. Now, a cleric can get some of these spells, but not all of them.
fnord 01-11-07, 01:05 AM	Wizards generally miss out on more. Hence, my note on Cleric+Wizard > 2 Clerics.
Zemyla 01-11-07, 09:35 AM	Artificers hit their stride at level 5, when they can use the Metamagic Item infusion.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 01-11-07, 09:59 AM	I think the Wizard's power comes down to two things. mindblank and Clone. A Cleric does not have mindblank, and while they can cast ressurection for others, they are hard pressed to do it for themselves. Even if a Wizard somehow dies in Astral Projection, their Clone will still be available.
jameswilliamogle 01-11-07, 10:36 AM	I meant to say "depends on the books" in my post above. Artificers, as many say, can do everything the above 3 classes can do, but it takes a lot of prep time to do everything well. Its kind of one of those "potential" things (like the antimatter thread on this page: sure your DM could allow it, but would he?). They really rock when they can start crafting wands. I'd say Artificers are best between 6th and 15th, thought they rival Wizards and Clerics (Druids have too many special abilities, imo) above that (multiple crafting homonculi, etc.), even in a Core + EbCS only game. Binders have a sweet spot from 8th to 13th: they qualify for KoSS then (I don't consider Binder / KoSS to be anything other than a normal Binder, as every full Binding build uses it), gain multiple vestiges, and can start getting freaky. What levels are the sweet spot for the ToB characters (I've only read the book, haven't really played them yet)?
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 01-11-07, 10:58 AM	You make a good point about Artificers, and I forgot that they can potentially get all spells 2 levels before anyone else. For the moment, let's just consider the Cleric, Druid, and Wizard. I am curious how they compare to each other in a Core only environment and an All Wotc books environment.
jameswilliamogle 01-11-07, 11:41 AM	Core is fairly easy. Wizard > Druid > Cleric past 15th or so Druid > Cleric ~ Wizard from 7th-14th Druid >> Cleric ~ Wizard 5th - 6th Druid ~ Cleric >> Wizard 1st - 4th All WotC is trickier, but close to the same. Wizard > Cleric > Druid past 17th (differences minor, but Wish and the vast spell selection puts wiz on top) Wizard ~ Cleric > Druid 15th - 16th (differences minor, but Clerics can buff past the druid @ this point) Druid ~ Cleric ~ Wizard around 13th - 14th (a little utility vs more utility vs massive utility; druid still best combat) Cleric ~ Druid > Wizard 7th-12th (DMM cheese vs wildshape vs polymorph) Druid > Cleric > Wizard 5th-6th (wildshape vs buffs vs milder buffs) Druid ~ Cleric >> Wizard 1st - 4th (armor vs animal companion vs ?) The high level differences are much, much smaller than the low level differences, and it is also very campaign specific (how much item creation, scribing, etc. is allowed, how readily availabe are scrolls to put into the spellbook). Its also player specific (I'm assuming by these rankings that the players are regular optimizers who know exactly what all their spells do, what kind of opponents they're facing, etc.).
amalcon 01-11-07, 12:01 PM	Levels 1-4 (low): Melee types are best here. Mostly fighters, but to a lesser extent barbs and rangers. Druids are a bit of an exception, because they have an extra fighter as a class feature (Animal Companion) 5-10 (mid): Here, it's a tough split between skill users and casters. Level 5 = third level spells = Slow/Haste for Wizards, Summon Nature's Ally III for Druids (they're the best healers with this until Heal is available), and the best AC buffs for Clerics (Magic Vestment, Magic Circle against Evil). Skill users, on the other hand, now can have 8+ ranks, while others only get 4+. That means that ranks are now potent enough to overcome the difference between an 18 stat and a 10. It's also before you typically fight most constructs, so undead are the only really common thing your precision damage will fail against. Melee types can hold their own, but will pale in comparison to these others. 11-16 (high): Casters just win now. 6th level spells are probably the single biggest power jump in the game. Wizards get some great divinations and great offensive spells (including the first true save-or-dies, Disintegrate and Stone to Flesh). Druids get Wall of Stone, Fireseeds, and Spellstaff (not to be underestimated). Clerics get Heal and Harm, not to mention Blade Barrier and others. Skill users can still hold their own; melee types can only be effective while properly buffed by the casters. 17+ (ultra-high): Miracle. Shapechange. Gate. Mass Heal. Disjunction. These spells speak for themselves. As for which casters are the best, I think it's just a matter of what campaign you're in. The first deciding factor is the number of books allowed. Clerics and Druids get new spells available from many books at no cost to them. Wizards get new spells at minimal cost. Sorcerer types get new spells only in exchange for old ones. Anyone with their own list basically never gets new spells at all. Further, in games where there's a lot of downtime, wizards get a large boost, clerics and druids get a smaller boost, and spontaneous types get no boost at all. There are lots of other considerations like that.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 01-11-07, 02:23 PM	Thanks for your thoughts on the issue James. I like your comment about downtime amalcon. I've been thinking, perhaps in theory or when separated from a party Structure, Wizards are extremely good. For example. With mindblank, a wizard can go anywhere and never be found because divinations even Wish and miracle spells can't find him. He can use his own divinations to find any other person (besides a high level wizard with mindblank) and engage and defeat that enemy at a time of the wizard's choosing. In fact, you could argue that they're nigh invincible. However, in a party, mindblank doesn't do you much good, since the rest of your party could be easily tracked. So you're forced to be in a common place with everyone else. In those situations, Heal spells might be more beneficial than Wizardly evasion tactics. Perhaps high buffing insanity would be a better choice. So I can see how this can change the issues as how people see them.
imneuromancer 01-11-07, 04:06 PM	Druid outclasses fighter at almost every level because of more skill points and better skill list, an animal companion, spells/healing, and then (only at mid levels) the ubiquitous wildshape. Clerics I think START to outclass fighters at 7th, but their really nice spells are still limited because of spell slots. By 10th, they have more than enough spell slots to be casting almost every round, and they will have plenty of spells. At that level, you are starting to try to find 1st or 2nd level "swift" spells that will get rid of useless low-level spells that you realistically won't use in combat. Same with the wizard. Up to about 7th or so, they are the "big bang" character that shifts the flow of combat with the handful of spells. At 10th level or so, fighters become basically shields that allow the spellcasters to do their thing.
Endarire 01-11-07, 05:23 PM	This analysis assumes pure classes that take these spells ASAP. Until your party arcanist learns fireball, he's mostly a liability. For the next 3-5 levels, your group is pretty balanced until he learns teleport. After that, I'm unsure. For clerics, it depends a lot more. Clerics get a large power boost at L9 when they can start using revivify, and, if necessary, revenance. Druids just seem strong throughout, though moreso as tanks, scouts, and secondary healers and nukers. -EE
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 01-11-07, 06:45 PM	Level wise I dunno. What I do know is it's outright foolish to think a wizard is better than a cleric. Devine Metamagic(Persistant Spell) > All arcane feats combined. Add Southen Magician(feat) & Anyspell(spell) into the mix and suddenly you can persist any 5th level or lower persenal arcane spell. Like Ray Deflection. Somone people come up with some kind of uber arcane thesis metamagiced spell that deals 400 damage as a wizard. However, they spent evey feat they get and are based off dozens of books in order to do it. A cleric does with by simply adding Complete Devine and spending 3~4 of their feats. Add other books to decrease this to spending 2 feats. They also have a antimagic fail safe when you get down to it. Antimagic Field + Im-Trip + Chain weapon. Suddenly nearly eveything the wizard wants to do is ignored. It helps to be a spellcaster and a fighter rolled into one. But Lost, what if they cast dispel and remove all those persistant buffs? It can remove the buffs that provide you your edge. What if the Cleric casts dispel on your wizard? SAME THING. But Lost, what if a wizard used Antimagic Ray? It becomes fighter vs wizard. Now what if a cleric hits a wizard with antimagic ray? It becomes commener vs god cleric fight. Cleric > Wizard, no contest. *** Druids do tone down a hair as you level up, but still pull ahead of 95% of base classes. And with those silly Core only DMs running about druids are unsurpassed. *** I seen people suggest an Artificer to be added to the list. Yeah it's nice to beable to deal 1,467,349 damage with your metamagic wands. But theres simply not enough gold in the world to support your spellcasting for a week. Try playing your uber build in a real game then comment how wrong I am. *** My line ups. 1: Druid > Cleric > Wizard. Atleast the cleric can mimic a fighter. Durid mimics and pwns all, and comes with a pet thats better than eveyone else too. 2~19: Whatever > Anything > Nothing. Depends on how many books used and how well the guy playing them built his charecter. 20: Cleric > Wizard > Druid.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-11-07, 06:52 PM	As per what you're actually discussing: The Erudite in CPsi gets an extra feat on all of the above at 1st level. This allows it to take the Elemental Envoy feat ... just check out the earth based elemental steward. If this was your 1st level *character* your DM would blanche. Oh look, I'm a weird blasty -fester too. Merely overpowered at 2nd level, and a yawner after 3rd. Any discussion of "core" has to include Psionics with Re-charge-o-rama thanks to CPsi making the XPH core! Worse would be a Psionic(X) Artificer 1 / Erudite 1 , which "probably" can set up minor recharge with a PHB2 retrain. Say Vigor 20+ times a day at 1 PP. Later, a Psi-X Arty can do it's tricks with Psychic Reformation giving a regular Arty during down time and BiggER guy is with me during combat. Didn't someone says Sychronicity is THE most broken power ever?
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 01-11-07, 07:19 PM	You make some interesting arguments Lost. I'm still not entirely convinced, perhaps you can help me. What I'm seeing is that, a Wizard can make his own demiplane, hideout, ect. and then cast mindblank. If he does so, he is safe. It does not matter how powerful his enemies are, because they can never find him because Divinations can't penetrate. Let's say that the Cleric and the Wizard are gunning for each other. The Wizard can find the Cleric, but the Cleric cannot find the wizard. Thus, at the wizard's own choosing, he can cast timestop, planeshift near where the cleric is, cast a barrage of spells, and then planeshift away. The Wizard can even mess up, and find that his spells didn't finish off the Cleric. He is free to try again and do better until he finally succeeds (which shouldn't be too long). Even if the impossible happens, and the Cleric ambushes the Wizard somehow, the Wizard will be in an Astral Projection, and if defeated goes back fine. Even barring that, a Wizard is capable of having up ForeSight, and thus before the Cleric can act on his ambush, the wizard can cast Celerity and Planeshift to safety. That's what I'm thinking, what else am I missing?
awaken_D_M_golem 01-11-07, 07:46 PM	Somebody DejaVu and TimeHopped me over here in the far realm(s) of insanity - earth. I won't elaborate. LoP shows the value of an early PAO with his you know what thread. But I just recently got in silent trouble about Beholders... So which 7th or 6th level class is in best position to take advantage of it? Assume supernatural thingy feat doesn't require psionics. So I'm throwing in with a Wizard 13 w/ leadership ... (and a Psion cohort) Clerics have to wait for miracle a.k.a. another WNBA team that folded.
MegaPlex 01-11-07, 07:49 PM	Mind Blank is also a Protection 8 domain spell, so any Cleric can duplicate it with Miracle, thus the Wizard can't find the Cleric and we have a stalemate. I'm sure we can come up with Cleric vs Druid vs Wizard scenarios all day, but they do not illustrate which is a more powerful class, but simply how creative and knowledgeable the player is. I'd have to agree with most of the above posters with respect to power at each level. Once you get above 17th level (9th level spells) all three of them are crazy powerful. The Cleric may have a slight edge over wizards because of their ability to gain/duplicate Wizard/Druid spells without any cost.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-11-07, 08:05 PM	Minimum: a 2 on 1 fight, where the 1 wins 51% of the time. Maximum: a 10 on 1 fight, where the 1 wins 99% of the time. Once travel spells / domain kick in, the fighter is toast. So at that point Wiz = Cle , both > Dru , but the Cleric is down one domain. But the Wizard has to play don't catch me. It's teleport and plane shift and then genesis opposed by divinations. Who goes first ... ( don't sleep , I know what you're thinking , I don't need no reasons , remote view trap cause it hurts )
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 01-11-07, 08:20 PM	Alright, good point on mindblank also being a Divine spell despite being a domain spell and thus still applicable for miracle. Very well. But what about the Druid at 17th? The Druid does not have access to mindblank, nor can it really compete in Planehopping Teleport Schemes. So, unless I'm missing something, it seems like the Druid is toast compared to the other 2 casters.
TheCobra 01-11-07, 09:37 PM	I don't agree with the idea that casters are weak before level 5. Sleep owns at level 1. Color spray is risky but quite powerful. Turn undead is extremely effective early on. Hold person starts rocking at level 3. Glitterdust too. In addition to the companion, druids have produce flame and shillelagh. Summoning can also be good. Casters are fine at any level, but do really start taking off around level 5.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-11-07, 10:18 PM	These comparisons are utterly speculatory and useless without some sort of standard to measure them. To me it's an excersize in futility to examine the class as a whole and pass judgement. I'd only ever compare specific builds to some baseline specific builds to see if they're better or worse on a point by point basis. It would be kind of interesting to see a graduated build comparison system. Create multiple tiers of optimization, from least optimized to most optimized. Deciding on what goes into a given tier would be somewhat speculative, but if you get a large enough sample group for each tier it may average out to something coherent. Then when a new build wants to be "placed" it is compared (numerically/subjectively) to those already within the tiers and it is entered into that tier.
iconoplast 01-11-07, 10:32 PM	I actually think some benchmarking would be great - I've only recently gotten back into D&D (Having completely skipped 3.0, and most of the latter half of 2nd Ed) and I'm not sure what builds are *supposed* to be capable of. It seems a little more straightforward for spellcasters (I guess the optimization there comes in terms of spells memorized/known), who just need to pay attention to their caster levels, than it does for fighters and skillmonkeys, whose effectiveness seems to be because of, not despite, their feat and PrC choices. So, what should my tank be able to do by level 5? By level 10? How hard a hit should I be expecting? How hard should I have to hit? How high an AC should I have? Should I hit? Do I *need* cleave and improved trip? I know that certain high-CR monsters have been used as benchmarks for level 20 builds around here, but are there sufficiently iconic monsters at lower CRs? Also, how would Party Interaction be benchmarked? Things like 'Protect the Wizard', 'Heal the Fighter,' 'Cast invisibility on the thief'...
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 01-11-07, 10:40 PM	I second the benchmarking. I talk about level 20 Wizards and what they are capable of. A Standard Core 20 level Wizard would be great to point to. OH SNAP!!! We could make this into a contest! Each person designs the most optimized benchmark!! The judges compare entries between each other, and the most powerful, most versatile builds become standards to which we compare.
imneuromancer 01-11-07, 10:55 PM	about benchmarking: here's the thing, the benchmarks are going to be more indicative of what YOU think is important, and therefore it will skew the answer to the question. For example, if you benchmark for effectiveness is, "has to be able to fight all day in heavy armor and have lots of feats," then of course the fighter will master the mage. However, if your benchmark is, "makes people 'save or die' a lot versus all kinds of different saves," then your wizard is going to win over the fighter. In other words, Heisenberg is at work here. What the issue of benchmarking DOES bring up, however, is the fact that (most) divine casters have a significant advantage over (most) arcane builds because they can change their spells every day. Feel like being a diplomacizer/face? then take appropriate spells like true seeing, tongues, eagle splendor, zone of truth, etc. Feel a little melee action coming on? Take divine might, magic vestments, etc. etc. Arcane casters generally don't have that kind of flexibility. For that reason, I would actually give divine casters a little edge over arcane casters because by whatever benchmark you create, divine casters can generally change to meet the challenge.
jameswilliamogle 01-11-07, 11:05 PM	Well, you could assume the wizard has access to any spell he wants, effectively like a CoD. I don't think a contest would be so great... Like imneuro said, there's just too many different aspects of effectiveness for characters to worry about. My ranking the Wizard higher at upper levels had more to do w/ the utility of what they are capable of; CoD has a more focused spell list, so doesn't have quite the shenanigens that a Wizard could pull off (admittedly, that goes both ways, but I think the Wiz has more tricks).
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 01-11-07, 11:21 PM	I suppose so. However, I don't think that it's useless to talk about effectiveness without builds, since most of the power that comes out of these classes is their spells. I still haven't seen a retort to Druids not being able to cast mind blank and thus being vulnerable, so perhaps that's some proof as well. Of course that's also at level 17 up. I would actually argue that it's easy to talk about 17 and up, since the game is totally different then. It's the middle levels where it's more up in the air as to usefulness and power.
PhaedrusXY 01-12-07, 12:47 AM	The druid has a good will save, their primary stat is Wisdom, and they can dump everything else. They don't need Mindblank.
Kuroi Kenshi 01-12-07, 12:59 AM	about benchmarking: here's the thing, the benchmarks are going to be more indicative of what YOU think is important, and therefore it will skew the answer to the question. For example, if you benchmark for effectiveness is, "has to be able to fight all day in heavy armor and have lots of feats," then of course the fighter will master the mage. However, if your benchmark is, "makes people 'save or die' a lot versus all kinds of different saves," then your wizard is going to win over the fighter. In other words, Heisenberg is at work here.Odd. For some reason when I think "benchmark", I think being able to defeat X number of various encounter types of CR Y at ECL (Y +/- Z). Z would determine comparitive effectiveness across classes. For example if druid10 with a certain feat setup can take on a CR 11 encounter reliably and druid10 with a different feat setup can't until ECL 11, then it becomes apparent that for that particular encounter type, the first build is better. Though there may be another encounter type at that same CR that the second build will be better at. Kinda like how in uncon competitions, the character submissions have to describe plans for dealing with overwhelming odds, vs 1 powerful opponent, being caught unawares, and whatever other semi-typical scenarios are presented. Anyway, the more encounter types checked against increases the validity of the conclusions. And having a stock party or two that each character can replace a similar member of, would make such tests even more representative of normal play. The problem is that it'd take so much work and calculation that it'd almost be better to develop a program that can run such simulations quickly so you can gather your data efficiently and do some meta analysis.
Tleilaxu_Ghola 01-12-07, 01:59 AM	What he means by benchmarking is that you create an iconic wizard, by which all other wizards are measured. I'd expand that to say that there should be say 3-4 "iconic" wizard builds of different power levels. When you want to benchmark your wizard you find which wizard it's closest to (in terms of power) and that's how you "score" the build. Of course it would actually be better to make it more general and have not a "wizard icon role" but an "arcane caster" iconic role, which would include sorcerers, wizards, sublime chords, and the lot.
dog45 01-12-07, 02:29 AM	A problem I see is that 'power level' is something that changes with who is playing the game. Different groups have varying degrees of what power level is acceptable in the game. The Benchmark Wizard may be a simple meat & potatoes build as far as the CO board is concerned, but it could be way above what the rest of the group is playing in terms of power level. For example, I'm playing a home campaign with people that regularly play LG. Myself, I can't really get into LG. I find it's restrictive and doesn't suit my style of play. But the groups idea of what's powerful has been based off LG games, so when I bring in a powerful (but nowhere near gamebreaking) character I get all kinds of grief and accustations of cheese. Another guy had to bring a 12-pack to sooth the group when he wanted to play a Goliath Warblade. Point is, I think it's a good idea to have standard non-cheese iconic builds that optimizers can compare their own builds to, but it should be recognized that something above or below the benchmark may be what's needed for the character.
MegaPlex 01-12-07, 03:30 AM	One of the issues is that combat is only half of your average DnD game. The other half includes Skills (traps, diplomacy, etc), Role Playing, Survival (wilderness, planer, etc), Organizations (Churches, Thieves Guilds, Governments), etc, etc, etc. If you build a character with only combat in mind, then your character will only be optimized 50% of the time. But then again, it's very difficult to measure the effectiveness of that sort of optimization because it's almost 100% Campaign/DM/Play Style dependent.
iconoplast 01-12-07, 02:03 PM	Ok, benchmark-wise, I think we could use non-build-dependent criteria. I'm going to start a tentative list - not every build, naturally, will be able to do all these things. It might end up being a quick way to make sure you have all the bases covered in your party, though. At levels 5, 10, 15, and 20, the Xs, Ys, Zs and foos would change... 1) Able to occupy X number of monsters Y for Z rounds (to allow the party to escape). If Y is Undead, the Cleric's good. Wizards who know Web can do this. Trip-focused fighters can do this, for small-ish X and Zs. 2) Able to deal X ammount of damage per round to a creature with armor class Y and damage reduction Z/foo. (For this, assume invulnerability to sneak attack is a type of damage reduction) 3) Able to deal X ammount of damage per encounter/day to a creature with armor class Y and damage reduction Z. (as above) 4) Able to heal X ammount of damage per round. 5) Able to remove condition X. (Varied by level, X could be 'Frightened', 'Petrified', 'Ability/Level Drain' 'Poisoned, or even 'Dead') Clerics, naturally, are great at this one. Paladins can pull some tricks vs. Frightened. 6) Able to detect, disable, and/or bypass a mechanical trap of DC X. 7) Able to sneak past a Listen/Spot check of DC X (Via Hide/Move Silently, or Levitate/Invisibility, or what-have-you) 8) Able to take X points of damage type Y per round for Z rounds. 9) Able to make a DC X Saving throw of type Y 10) Armor class X 11) Can hit DC X on Knowledge (Y). (Where Y is Religion, Arcana, Nature, or Dungeoneering) Any more ideas? Also, non-combat optimization doesn't need to be reflected in the build, necessarily. Backgrounds go a long way towards hooking the PC up with NPC organizations. Plus, you really can't optimize for that kind of stuff, as it really boils down to a kind of mother-may-I style game.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-12-07, 03:36 PM	Imneuromancer ... (grandma says get well soon dear) You mentioned Heisenberg, which is why I suggested 10 vs 1 with 99%. I think all here would agree that ten Fighter 20s - any which CO way - have a less than 1% chance against Cleric or Wiz 18 or even 17. Megaplex butterfly principles me into a Kobold Cleric 1 with the racial sub to eliminate some dross. But MoI lets anybody be a trapfinder at X level ; right around PAO time a.k.a. hammer time. Oh and I biffed a 3 on a 5 earlier ... must be trickery domain.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 01-12-07, 05:54 PM	You make some interesting arguments Lost. I'm still not entirely convinced, perhaps you can help me. That's what I'm thinking, what else am I missing? Genesis Conjuration (Creation) Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Creation 9 Components: V, S, M, XP Casting Time: 1 week (8 hours/day) Range: 180 ft. (see text) Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal Plane, centered on your location Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No ... Doesn't that mean it's a 9th level Creation domain spell? As somone else pointed out Clerics can have access to Mindblank (protection) as well. Same for Time Stop (trickery). Btw, Miracle states "Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error." Cleric casts Miracle, "I need a miracle, please transport us next to Bob Imauberwizard." *poof*, the cleric and his party appear next to the wizard whos hiding on his own plane. "The wizard trying to kill me while I sleep" might work too ;) ...I'm sure we can come up with Cleric vs Druid vs Wizard scenarios all day, but they do not illustrate which is a more powerful class, but simply how creative and knowledgeable the player is. Aye. We could make this into a contest! Each person designs the most optimized benchmark!! The judges compare entries between each other, and the most powerful, most versatile builds become standards to which we compare. Great idea. Not that it will truly prove much, but it would be interesting to see what all is submitted. Maybe I could find a better persistant spell combo than this. Ray Deflection + Stormlord = Immune to rnaged attacks that require an attack roll, 40ft fly & freebie lightning bolts. :D Edit - Throw in a Starmantal Cloak, Ring Of Evasion and a +13 reflex save and 19 out of 20 melee attacks don't hurt you either. Take that FB charge abuser!
awaken_D_M_golem 01-13-07, 03:30 PM	@Lost : Hopefully our dust up on the psi-board is forgiven, I'm'n'a try to be constructive here. Oh and my accidentally interlocking posts with yours on the previous page were references to myself, not you. And I just read yer sig ... bad me. The Cleric has Domain 9 spells in competition with Wiz 9 ( that are not also Cle 9 ) spells. Which has the better travel, divination, unique 8s, and unique 9s. But the Cleric has a "role"-play disadvantage : "oh great powers I worship, I beseech thee/that again , for yet another miracle to be pronounced in thy/it's name , according to my wishes - secondarily, according to your/its wishes - primarily , verily , yea , pretty please ?!" Druid has minor home field advantage ( literally ). But I'm feeling yawn-y by 15th level. PAO the fighter and it may be better for a few levels cause of its feats - psyref'd properly.
Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer 01-13-07, 03:44 PM	Doesn't that mean it's a 9th level Creation domain spell? As somone else pointed out Clerics can have access to Mindblank (protection) as well. Same for Time Stop (trickery). Btw, Miracle states "Moving you and your allies, with all your and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error." Cleric casts Miracle, "I need a miracle, please transport us next to Bob Imauberwizard." *poof*, the cleric and his party appear next to the wizard whos hiding on his own plane. "The wizard trying to kill me while I sleep" might work too ;) I hadn't noticed that part of miracle. Specific locale is ironically ambiguous. As such, if interpreted to mean where Bobthewizard is, that could mean that no one in the universe, no matter who, is ever safe, since they are one step away from a miracle beatdown. Also, Yes, a Cleric can get the creation domain, the trickery domain, or others, however, not all clerics are going to have all domains. So if you're going to talk as if a Cleric can make a demiplane, then every cleric you're going to ever talk about needs to have that domain.
awaken_D_M_golem 01-13-07, 03:56 PM	Hey BBAA : so a cleric gets genesis and makes it safe and fast ... and then PHB2 retrains his ( i'm being sexist ) domains ... "oh powers i used to beseech , i now beseech others , please don't be mad , whimper ... " consequently takes just a little more time to do more stuff ... Two Domains fer One Retrain { this via johnnie cockatrise the rules lawyer }
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 01-16-07, 03:34 PM	@Lost : Hopefully our dust up on the psi-board is forgiven, I'm'n'a try to be constructive here. And I just read yer sig ... bad me. Always, I take fights and arguments by threads & points. Meh, it was late, I had a stroke of bad luck and evey thread I seen had somne arguing when they were proven wrong. So I added to my sig and left it. MAybe one fo these days I'll clean it up. @The Cleric has Domain 9 spells in competition with Wiz 9 ( that are not also Cle 9 ) spells. Which has the better travel, divination, unique 8s, and unique 9s. But the Cleric has a "role"-play disadvantage : "oh great powers I worship, I beseech thee/that again , for yet another miracle to be pronounced in thy/it's name , according to my wishes - secondarily, according to your/its wishes - primarily , verily , yea , pretty please ?!" Theres evil gods your suppose to threaten in your prays. (I think) "Teleport me to the wizard oh Darko, dark god of the dark. Or I'll come over there and open a can of whoop-rear." *** I hadn't noticed that part of miracle. Specific locale is ironically ambiguous. As such, if interpreted to mean where Bobthewizard is, that could mean that no one in the universe, no matter who, is ever safe, since they are one step away from a miracle beatdown.Yeah sucks eh? Divine ranks can stop it if your higher than their deity. I'd homerule block it from working like that. Wish too. Also, Yes, a Cleric can get the creation domain, the trickery domain, or others, however, not all clerics are going to have all domains. So if you're going to talk as if a Cleric can make a demiplane, then every cleric you're going to ever talk about needs to have that domain. Look down. Hey BBAA : so a cleric gets genesis and makes it safe and fast ... and then PHB2 retrains his domains ... Yeah they don't have access to ALL of them at once, but they have access none the less. A Cleric can nearly mimic eveything your wizard can do. In some ways it can do it better (persisting high level arcane spells). If by being able to do a longer list of different things at once was a factor than the Bard class should be listed :p