Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Beware of Kobold 01-11-06, 03:11 AM	I've never seen anyone post anything about magical traps used for optimization purposes yet, so let me start by giving my reasons for why I think they can be majorly abused. ok in the DMG, there are rules for making magic devices (magic traps). A mechanical trap can be designed so that it protects something mobile (such as a treasure chest), so assumedly a magic trap can as well. Now let's say for instance that you design a trap that isn't actually a trap. It could be something beneficial even. How about a cure light wounds trap with a touch trigger and automatic reset built into something that you can carry around? According to the trap creation rules this would only cost 500 gp (500 gp x spell level x caster level). You'd have to re-touch the item every time you wanted to get healed of course, but in most cases this would be something like a free action. Even if it wasn't it would still be cheaper than a wand of cure light wounds, last forever, and be usable by anyone. This is just the first idea that came into my head. Im sure there are tons of other abuses that are waiting to be thought of. What about multiple traps built into one item? An item that casts 4 cure light wounds, bull strength and the holy grail of all abusive magic items, true strike, on you every time you touch it? This trap would only cost something like 5,500 gp. Am I missing something about traps? Is there some stipulation where it states that only damaging spells can be built into traps or that magic traps can never be built into a portable object? Look over the rules in the DMG and see what other insane abuses you can come up with.
Beware of Kobold 01-11-06, 03:18 AM	for purposes of this thread lets call whoever triggers the trap the "target". here's another fun one, a touch trigger trap that casts energy immunity (fire) on the target, as well as several delayed blast fireballs centered on the target (delayed one round) so they arent hitting at the same time the energy immunity is taking effect so as to bypass any arguments about which takes effect first. If you want to give that the energy immunity takes effect right away you could make a cheaper version that just drops a ton of fireballs all on the target at the same time. Some bad guys bothering you? Just touch your trap and enjoy the massive inferno. Not even a rogue is going to make 20 or more reflex saves.
deathwishjoe 01-11-06, 04:06 AM	hmmmm single use traps see to cost more then scrolls but the auto reset traps are deffinatly cheaper then making your own use activated items. still expensive for high XP costs use activated items but yeah what can you expect.
xerofire 01-11-06, 05:01 AM	I've never seen anyone post anything about magical traps used for optimization purposes yet, so let me start by giving my reasons for why I think they can be majorly abused. Actually I posted on this last year and the post kind of faded into the backgroud really fast, so sad, oh well. Glad someone else also sees the usefulness of traps as things not built into walls. I liked magical traps as weapons and then animating or wielding them with a mage hand to go attack things (spheres of adamantium for durability, touch attack setting off spell effects). Also used it to make "wands" that anyone could use an unlimited number of times. Magic missle and scorching ray and the orb spells worked well. a magic "gun" with an unlimited number of maximized force orbs is well worth the investment. Made an artificer (good use for the craft pool, since the items are never used up you can always recycle your old toys) covered with an array of amulets to completely buff himself in 1 round (trigger with one hand sweep along a sash they are all attached to) with the unslotted "traps" and a big magic force gun that he applied metamagic to in order to get "special ammo". I think the best features of the magical traps as items is that they don't take up magic item spaces, multiple effects can be triggered in 1 round for a combination of sources, and "wand" type items can be used by anyone, and the huge variety of diffrent types of items you can make since it uses craft wonderous item. On a related note mechanical traps with animate object make great cheap golems. You can always cast make whole if they break and you can make the animated object have far great damage potential or variant attack types. Animated flame throwers with an oil resevior, statues with resetting spike traps set in the fists that hit as a touch attack. And when you're done you can shrink item them for easy storage.
Beware of Kobold 01-11-06, 02:51 PM	i think the reason that no one else seems to want to touch the subject is because traps don't have a lot of write up in the DMG, so people aren't sure of the "official" rules regarding them. Not a lot of specifics = not a lot of interest.
Lokiyn 01-11-06, 02:56 PM	We used the Spell Turrets in the DMGII in the Pimp my Airship thread on the Eberron boards to create a few different effects. Summoning turrets and disableing turrets along the sides of ships for boarding actions. i worked out a Protoss style Carrier with Ornithopters that had spell turrets mounted in them. (fly the Ornithopter in Range and it starts chucking fireballs and what not.)
Esponer 01-11-06, 03:00 PM	I've noticed this too, but it seems really quite cheap. Can I take this opportunity to ask what sort of action touching an object in your possession (a little trap, say) actually constitutes? Move or free?
Beware of Kobold 01-11-06, 03:07 PM	I've noticed this too, but it seems really quite cheap. Can I take this opportunity to ask what sort of action touching an object in your possession (a little trap, say) actually constitutes? Move or free? if its a stored item (inside a backpack, in a pouch, under your shirt) then it would be a move action. If it was easily accessible, such as on your belt, or on the outside of your armor, it would probably be a free action, but for balance purposes I think I'd rule that activating any trap during combat would have to be a move action (unless it was a magic trap with a proximity as the trigger, because that requires no action by anyone. Just being nearby is enough)
foxylady 01-11-06, 05:25 PM	Also used it to make "wands" that anyone could use an unlimited number of times. Magic missle and scorching ray and the orb spells worked well. a magic "gun" with an unlimited number of maximized force orbs is well worth the investment. I don't think this works. Traps automatically make the target of their magical effects "you" (the triggerman). Hitting myself with a maximized force orb isn't my idea of optimal use of a trap.
CapnGare 01-11-06, 07:07 PM	So useful traps, as opposed to harmful traps, can only be buffs and healing spells then correct? If you were to make a ring with the automatic reset ability on a touch set to cast 'cure light wounds' would wearing the ring grant the spell constantly or would you have to stop wearing it and put it back on? What about setting up the blade of a sword to be a magical trap that cast fireball whenever something touched it? How about a belt buckle of wish? Is there any language that limits what spells can be placed on a trap? What about spells like shapechange that require some input from the person receiving the spell to determine what happens, would these still be fair game?
Faithless the Wonder Boy 01-11-06, 07:22 PM	Actually, in a short-lived campaign I once played in a while back, the DM had a Polymorph trap that polymorphed whoever opened a small chest into a kobold. Of course, the arcane trickster with the ridiculously high search skill who was in this same party found it, disabled it, figured out what it did, and asked the DM if he could go about reconstructing it, but maybe find a way to change what the target is polymorphed into. The DM, still thinking of it as a trap, haplessly agreed (poor guy, it was only his second time DMing, and the arcane trickster was more of an optimizer than me). I'd imagine you can guess what happened next. I tell you, a box of infinite Polymorph for dirt cheap really is unbalancing at level 9.....
Esponer 01-11-06, 07:24 PM	What following is mostly less-than-RAW opinions: • You'd have to remove the ring and put it back on again to re-trigger it. • The spell effect would need to be determined exactly when creating the item. A trap that casts wish on whoever triggers it would need to cast a specific wish. • You cannot set a trap on a sword and attack with the intent of it setting off the trap. I think this is by the RAW in Forgotten Realms: Campaign Setting for runes, but for traps it's just my opinion as far as I know.
Beware of Kobold 01-11-06, 07:40 PM	So useful traps, as opposed to harmful traps, can only be buffs and healing spells then correct? If you were to make a ring with the automatic reset ability on a touch set to cast 'cure light wounds' would wearing the ring grant the spell constantly or would you have to stop wearing it and put it back on? What about setting up the blade of a sword to be a magical trap that cast fireball whenever something touched it? How about a belt buckle of wish? Is there any language that limits what spells can be placed on a trap? What about spells like shapechange that require some input from the person receiving the spell to determine what happens, would these still be fair game? ok it works like this. A trap needs a trigger method. for magic traps there needs to be a magical trigger method (unless you want it to just be a timed interval, in that case there can be no target for the spell being cast, because the trap has no way of "detecting" a target). The most common method of targeting is by integrating the 'alarm' spell into the trap. The alarm acts as an "always on" effect which triggers a magic 'ping' every time a tiny or larger creature enters the area the alarm spell is protecting. This 'ping' can be audible or mental, and this 'ping' sends a message to the trap to target the 'intruder' with whatever spells are in the trap. For spells that aren't targeted the creator of the trap would have to decide beforehand where the spell's effect takes place, for instance for a fireball trap, the creator of the trap decides that when the 'ping' is sounded then the fireball will be targeted 5 feet to the left of the trap. Basically, if the ping isn't sounded, the trap doesn't go off. In order to set the trap off, a creature must "enter" the warded area, which can be reduced to any size smaller than the maximum space the alarm spell can cover. If you set the size to a ring, the trap only goes off when you touch the ring. If you touch the ring but don't remove your finger from it, the trap won't go off again because you haven't "entered" the traps protected area. As far as spells like Wish that require some decisions to be made when the spell is cast, these wouldn't work in traps because the trap itself is the caster. The person who set the trap off is only the target of the caster's (the trap's) effect. I suppose that it could be allowed that the creator of the trap could specify that everytime the trap was set off that a set decision be made, however. For instance a trap of Wish, that everytime it is set off, it wishes for the maximum amount of gold allowable in the description of wish. There is no language (that i can find) anywhere in the DMG that limits what spells can be put into a trap, but some things are implied. Any spell with a range of personal would be basically worthless. The trap is the caster so any spell with a personal range would affect the trap. In the case of almost every personal spell this would be pretty useless. A shapechange trap that shapechanges itself into a Solar everytime you touch it isn't all that great.
Esponer 01-11-06, 08:24 PM	A little bit of DM fíat could say that a wish could be keyed towards granting the target a wish instead. But DM fíat isn't going to happen with such an inherently broken idea.
Faithless the Wonder Boy 01-11-06, 08:48 PM	Even without bringing in the concepts of mobility, finding ways to trigger traps against opponents, etc., this leads to a number of interesting questions. Really, what is stopping people from making beneficial "traps" using those rules, and setting them off? For example, a trap that casts harm when someone steps on a pressure plate, and resets itself, could easily be changed to a trap that casts heal. All of a sudden, for a very low cost, we have an infinite heal. Even at CL 15, that's infinite heals for 45000g and 3600xp. Heck, I'd be willing to make that sacrifice - sounds like a must have for any base of operations. And true resurrection sounds even juicier...
Esponer 01-11-06, 09:28 PM	I've done heal (actually mass heal, on a rune). Works nicely. True Resurrection is a problem. How do you trigger it if you're dead? Whoever triggers it gets it.
Faithless the Wonder Boy 01-11-06, 09:39 PM	Pressure plate trigger sounds simple enough, with true resurrection cast on whoever triggers the pressure plate. Just toss the corpse there - I'm sure they won't mind the rough handling of the body, considering the end result.
anomalousman 01-11-06, 09:50 PM	So does this mean that the cost of all traps, beneficial or not, should be increased for balance?
system breaker 01-11-06, 10:01 PM	if its a stored item (inside a backpack, in a pouch, under your shirt) then it would be a move action. If it was easily accessible, such as on your belt, or on the outside of your armor, it would probably be a free action, but for balance purposes I think I'd rule that activating any trap during combat would have to be a move action (unless it was a magic trap with a proximity as the trigger, because that requires no action by anyone. Just being nearby is enough) Does anyone else find this hilarious? I mean he's arguing for using traps to get abusively cheap magical effects, and yet he talks about balance issues.... Don't get me wrong, I love any new optimization ideas, I just couldn't let this one go without bringing it up. :)
Endarire 01-11-06, 10:13 PM	This means that we found something the designers did not intend, at least in writing. Overall, the trap rules are seemingly meant only to be used by NPCs since digging a pit costs 600g. -EE
Lokiyn 01-11-06, 10:16 PM	I thing the main problem is that the majority of traps are meant to be immobile and fall under the 1/4 cost for immobile magic.
Beware of Kobold 01-12-06, 02:59 AM	i dont think there's any possible way to make a true ressurection trap because the trigger method for a magical trap only detects creatures, and a corpse is an object, and an undead creature can't be resurected until it's turned into a corpse again.
xerofire 01-12-06, 05:37 AM	I don't think this works. Traps automatically make the target of their magical effects "you" (the triggerman). Hitting myself with a maximized force orb isn't my idea of optimal use of a trap. with the orb spells they aren't auto targeting you the caster have to aim. So design the trap to shoot straight out the "barrel" of the gun when you pull the trigger. Then just like when you are casting the spell you aim it yourself. I don't really see the problem. Magic missle on the other hand auto targets and would have to act like a shocklance with the tip of the spear or whatever being the touch trigger and the missles hitting what ever touch it.
xerofire 01-12-06, 05:45 AM	I thing the main problem is that the majority of traps are meant to be immobile and fall under the 1/4 cost for immobile magic. where does it state that immobile magic items are 1/4 cost? I've never seen that before? And how immobile does it have to be if i have a floating castle from Stronghold building book that flys around and I hade a stationary healing platform is that Mobile of immobile?