Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Endarire 10-16-06, 10:00 PM	(Skardun's Online Sheet (sylnae.net/3eprofiler/view.php?id=39961)) | (Campaign Forum (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/index.php?c=8)) EDIT: Epic starts at level 26 in this game. I'm stuck on being a dwarf wizard. This campaign is Sigil where everything costs 25% more, item creation cost-reducing feats are banned, alignment doesn't exist, we got a 40 point buy with a stat limit of 20, and everything outside core must be earned. (I probably won't be able to get non-core stuff until at least level 3, and the source list WotC only with no magazines. This also means no first level-only feats, and definitely no flaws and traits.) My in character brother is a dwarf cleric and the group varies by week. I've contemplated various builds, such as incantatrix and magesmith, only to have them shot down by the DM. I'm very knowledge-centered and want to take classes that advance wizardly casting, grant all Knowledges, and possibly give more than 2 base skill points per level. I'm stuck on being a dwarf and incantatrix is banned, plus if I want to go epic, I must take all levels of a PrC, though not necessarily consecutively, if the PrC has 5 or fewer levels, and at least 5 otherwise. Master abjurer/sevenfold veil looked quite good until I realized I had to nix two schools. At this point, I may go generalist7/loremaster3/sevenfold7/loremasterX/archmageX. Ideas? -EE
creepy drifter 10-16-06, 11:17 PM	What books can you use? If FRCS books are allowed: The Wizard 5 / Harper Mage 3 / Unseen Seer 10 / Loremaster 2 build is insane with its whopping skill rank allotments. The Unseen Seer is from Complete Mage and gets 6 ranks/level using Rogue skills. Also, the only prerequisite feat you need in this build is Extend Spell (using MoF errata). That's awesome for freeing up feats for what you actually want.
Endarire 10-16-06, 11:22 PM	Could we fit sevenfold veil into there? I'm interested in trying one. -EE
Wire 10-17-06, 12:44 AM	To finagle the skill requirements to enter Unseen Seer, you'll need about 2 levels of Harper Mage for a comfortable segue into US. So Wiz 5 / HM 2 is a definite. The rest of the 13 levels can be whatever combination of IotSV, US, and HM levels that you want.
Endarire 10-17-06, 03:58 PM	Unfortunately, Harper Mage/Unseen Seer makes me lose a feat overall. I appreciate your efforts, but I hope to find a PrC that fulfills these criteria, with my priorities in this order: -Requires no more than 1 feat to enter unless Sevenfold Veil's feat prereqs, (Greater) Abj Focus & Spellcraft Focus, qualify. -Loses no arcane caster levels in the first four class levels. -First level takable between L6 and L9. -Gives all Knowledges as class. -EE
FriendlyFrog 10-17-06, 06:31 PM	Master harper (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frx/20030604a) isn't bad. 4 + Int skill points per level, great skill list, Harper knowledge, three bonus feats (that can be any feats), 3/4 BAB, good reflex and will saves and a d6 HD. It is a little harder to qualify for it, though, requiring skills that Wizards usually don't have. Harper mage is the usual way into it (and I like Wizard 5/Harper mage 2/Loremaster 3/Master harper 10 for a good skill mage with lots of bonus feats).
Book 10-17-06, 06:40 PM	Unfortunately, Harper Mage/Unseen Seer makes me lose a feat overall. I appreciate your efforts, but I hope to find a PrC that fulfills these criteria, with my priorities in this order: -Requires no more than 1 feat to enter unless Sevenfold Veil's feat prereqs, (Greater) Abj Focus & Spellcraft Focus, qualify. -Loses no arcane caster levels in the first four class levels. -First level takable between L6 and L9. -Gives all Knowledges as class. -EEUm, Harper Mage works fine with your priorities. You said you only want to use 1 feat (or less) to eventually get into 7Veil. Harper Mage only requires the Extend spell feat. Harper Mage is excellent in that regard - very very easy to enter.l
Endarire 10-17-06, 07:45 PM	Unfortunately, I need Alertness for Harper Mage, and my familiar's benefit doesn't count. Hopefully, wizard6/ruathar3 will work. Sevenfold veil is still my top priority. -EE
Lochar 10-18-06, 08:37 PM	Hi, Endarire? I regret to inform you that your PC was submitted incorrectly for processing. Therefore, any character you request(Especially after being told no about certain races, PrCs, and other skills) has been unequiviocally denied if they come from the CO boards. Try to have fun. Fun is not game breaking. Have a nice life! PS: Don't be a dick, you get on less ignore lists that way.
Muon 10-18-06, 08:38 PM	Gotcha.
Deep Blue 9000 10-18-06, 10:53 PM	what the heck just happened? That aside, I believe Master Specialist: Abjurer fills your pre-reqs. However, you'll have to be a specialist abjurer too.
Judging Eagle 10-18-06, 11:28 PM	what the heck just happened? That aside, I believe Master Specialist: Abjurer fills your pre-reqs. However, you'll have to be a specialist abjurer too. It's obvious, Lochar is the DM of Endarire's group. In any case Lochar, your admonishments don't matter. Edarire can get tons and tons of help via private messages. So it doesn't matter what you try to restrict on him. Back on topic. You got assigned a max level (with respect to xp and cash) and the race and class-type you must have. Technically, you could build whatever you want, and just have wizard as your 1st lvl. Really, your DM gives me the following impression, he is going to use you as a fluffer for the mastubatory games that he calls his "story-line" and "campaign world" Unless he can prove otherwise beyond a shadow of a doubt nothing your character does will make you more than a person playing the table-top equivalent of a video 'combat control only game' which is what many 'rpgs' for the computer and most consoles really are. Your DM has set the stage, he has set the characters and he has set the time and place for his "grand epic story." Personally, I'd rather pass and play a 1st level character who actually has a chance to make some indepentant choices.
Reis 10-18-06, 11:56 PM	Hi, Endarire? I regret to inform you that your PC was submitted incorrectly for processing. Therefore, any character you request(Especially after being told no about certain races, PrCs, and other skills) has been unequiviocally denied if they come from the CO boards. Try to have fun. Fun is not game breaking. Have a nice life! PS: Don't be a dick, you get on less ignore lists that way. remember the DM's dirty secret: he is on the player's side. besides, if you are a good DM, you can find plenty of material and tricks to challenge even the most powergamed character. Have a little imagination!
Endarire 10-18-06, 11:57 PM	Quick! Someone suggest Fighter20 so no one can do it! (|=^) Regarding my sheet, I realize that happened and I will submit an XML version in time for my entry. As for my character, I asked for advice within your parameters. Since you have been vague, I have asked many questions. I am willing to listen to your argument, but you must have clearly formulated criteria. Had you a comprehensive list of things you specifically allowed and disallowed, I would have had fewer questions. If you said simply, "CORE ONLY - No chance to do anything else!" then I still may have joined, but I'd feel better knowing my boundaries before I invest my effort. I want to know how viable something is before I begin. I ask often because my ideas change as inspiration strikes me, be it from a picture, a song, a story, or a forum. The CO boards are not simply for making the most uber character ever, and Pun-Pun and the Cheater of Mystra are more theoretical exercises than characters that will see play under a sane DM. Even if I could, I would only play builds such as a Cheater of Mystra with explicit DM permission after I explained how earth-shattering they could be. If you are concerned about balance, see campaign smashers (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=587555) and note that I'm not using any of these builds. The CO boards, instead, are about getting the most out of a concept. I asked you multiple times if dwarves and elves had old hatred toward each other. If so, I would use this in-character to further my character's concept. I do not simply act for the sake of power, else I would have found another campaign, but I find a character concept I can mechanically back up. I so desire to be as fully ready as possible because of my character's desire to survive. If he hears that 'heroic' people, ones more than 10 levels above him, are getting slaughtered, he will prepare his best defenses. If you have any questions about CO or/and its board, read the FAQ (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=64298). If you have any questions about specific things that you feel are unbalanced, speak with me personally. I am most often a reasonable man. Fun is mutual. I do my best to anticipate and build a party-worthy comrade, and I assume you do your best to challenge us in fair ways that are sensical within the story. Remember that knowledge is one of the focal points of this character, and with a base of 20 INT plus at least one rank in most Knowledges, I have an in-character reason to know what I can do. I PMed one of your associates or you about my latest prospective build, and I wrote my backstory days ago. Note that almost every possible viable build has been constructed or hinted at on these boards. Under the right cirumstances, even a human commoner20 with Leadership and enough charisma and social skills can be viable, not that I have any intention or desire currently to play one. I await the first Saturday session I can attend. -EE
MDarroch 10-19-06, 02:09 AM	Before I begin, I might as well introduce myself. I'm known on the game this character is being designed for as Aegir, or the "head" DM (I say "head" because there are several, I'm simply the guy that got the ball rolling). With that explained, here we go: As for my character, I asked for advice within your parameters. Since you have been vague, I have asked many questions. I am willing to listen to your argument, but you must have clearly formulated criteria. I was in fact *quite* clear in the creation post. Characters start at Lv 1, SRD and Planar Handbook only, anything else is earned through in-game actions. The fact that you spent two weeks posting questions on the board asking about as many as 8-10 PrCs, then often re-asking about items that I'd already said no to, tended to suggest I was better off not bothering. If you said simply, "CORE ONLY - No chance to do anything else!" Again, the creation post spells this out quite clearly. Most of what you've asked for is only allowed by earning it in-game; I'm vague about it because, frankly, since I know nothing about you, I don't know if you will. In the end, its not my decision alone; most of the other DMs defer to me, but I prefer not to make a decision based solely on my opinion unless I'm forced to. This game is very much unlike most campaigns. It doesn't have a single storyline aside from the fact that its based in Sigil. There are multiple DMs running, and Sigil was chosen as a base because it allowed said multiple DMs to run anywhere and everywhere. We've had games run in Faerun, Eberron, Ptolus, we've used stories from Oerth and Arcana Evolved's Diamond Throne. The campaign itself doesn't make the story, the characters do. I ask often because my ideas change as inspiration strikes me, be it from a picture, a song, a story, or a forum. And that, exactly, is the reason for my being vague. When I get 3-4 posts/day asking questions that can't all go into one character, from a person I know nothing about, naturally its going to get a bit old after the first *week*. Particularly when many of the questions seemed more based around trying to use the oldest cheese tactics in the book. The CO boards are not simply for making the most uber character ever... I'm well aware of what the CO boards are for. What you need to be aware of is what your arrival in this game looked like. You show up, spend a week posting 3-4 times/day asking questions about various PrCs and rulings, and when I give my yes/no, you simply turn around and ask about others (even though I said yes about 80% of the time). You ask about things that were basically designed to let crafting characters utilize their skills without needing vast amounts of downtime, when the game doesn't require downtime for crafting (and allows free purchase of any item statted in the SRD/Planar Handbook/Arcana Evolved). You ask about several things that have been used on these *very* boards to prove that a specific rule is hopelessly broken. Given all this, coming from someone I don't know and have no reason to trust not to abuse whatever I allow him, what am I suppose to assume? I asked you multiple times if dwarves and elves had old hatred toward each other. You only asked once, actually, but thats beside the point. As mentioned, Sigil has beings from many different worlds, including many different prime worlds and various planes. In other words, if you want a Dwarf that hates Elves, I'm certain it can be explained. Is this something incorporated in the world? No. But its incorporated in *some* world, which makes it potentially viable. I do my best to anticipate and build a party-worthy comrade... And this is fine; but having your own Genesis demi-plane where "time flows especially fast compared to normal", goes beyond this. In certain circumstances, I might even allow it; but only in cases where I know the player and know darn well he's not going to use this to break things. I don't know you, so how can I possibly make a decision? Some might call this favortism, I frankly don't much care. In the end, I allow things to players I know will take interesting hooks and run with them, without abusing them. Maybe you're one of these people, I don't know yet. My advice to you? Decide what you want to play - in personality - and see where that personality leads when thrust into the City of Doors.
MDarroch 10-19-06, 02:27 AM	It's obvious, Lochar is the DM of Endarire's group. Well, no, he's not. He's not even one of the DMs, tho' I can see where one would get that impression. You got assigned a max level (with respect to xp and cash) and the race and class-type you must have. No, the race and class was his choice, and PCs start at Lv 1. I'm not entirely sure where you got the impression I *assigned* anything, but thats not important. Misunderstanding cleared up. Your DM has set the stage, he has set the characters and he has set the time and place for his "grand epic story." I'll assume what came before this was caused by the misunderstanding that has now been cleared up, and thus not take offense to essencially being compared to a porn director. The restrictions on initial character build are made abundantly clear in the creation post, and Endarire has had it explained to him that anything beyond that is *potentially* possible (with some exceptions), assuming he earns them. I've explained this in much greater detail in the above post, so I won't go into it here. Bottom line: this game accepts an unlimited number of players (currently, we have upwards of 70 sheets on file), and while we have our share of "grand epic stories", the game is in reality a collection of short sessions that place the PCs on what amount to mercenary jobs. Many of them are far more "epic' than this, be they dungeon crawls or combating an ancient evil, but the point is that its not the DM, or even the DMs campaign that makes the story, its how the PCs react to the events thrown at them. Yes, this is true of most campaigns, but its given more emphasis here. Now that I've had a chance to explain my side of the story... create away.
Endarire 10-19-06, 03:48 AM	Edits in italics. You mentioned that other things had a possibility of being allowed which is why I asked so vigorously about them. As for Skardun, his build was mostly done before I came to this board. I wanted a proofreader since besides the CO crew, I'm the most knowledgeable person I know regarding wizards. Overall, info this post hasn't changed my character concept, but solidified it as a dwarven scholar who isn't trying to be a rogue. Perhaps it's the dwarf part of me, but I've been stubborn about trying a Sevenfold Veil since I first learned I could. While the sheet I posted isn't final because I haven't mailed it in yet, I probably won't change anything, and if I do, it's minor. Aegir, I also appreciate your reasonability in this. -EE
Wizu 10-19-06, 08:45 AM	... okay. This reminds me of my level 9 stonelord in Living Greyhawk. Ofcourse, if I would actually have one it would remind me even moreso. But I did once have a commoner 1/survivor 5 (played from level 1), a poet by heart who had the most amazing dialogue and monologue I have ever done in any game. In the end it wasnt my voice, but the mutual grumpyness of my co-players that got the dm to bend and allow me to make a half-ogre. They were stupidly bored on me smooching off exp by flicking a stone at a mob and dancing about telling strategies on how to beat it. Would I be a bard, I could perhaps be of better support, but I was just the Nodwik of a Nodwik-less group. My initial request was to play feral half ogre straight out of Savage Species, and finally when after half a year I was given a yes for it at the exp of my old character (which had 1/3 more exp than any other, partly due to my leet skills in surviving and most activest roleplay at the table...), I quitted playing with them. Why? I had won D&D. At least by my own standards, for I had got the ultimate prize, right to do what I pleased. Nothing could have beat that moment ever. I stormed off the DMs apartment and hardly ever kept contact to them. Latest news are that the group finally dissipated due to player versus player conflicts. Physical ones. Forgive me my off topicness, but I hope Endarire can learn a thing or two from my tale. Aside from that... WIZARD 5/HARPER MAGE 5/MASTER HARPER 10 FTW! There, I'm done here.
WizO_Autumn 10-19-06, 09:49 AM	I'm well aware of what the CO boards are for. ...Well, let me remind you and Endarire anyway. Questions about characters, help making builds, and discussions about character choices are all good. Private converstaions about a specific game are not. That line is off topic and is something you guys need to work out yourselves. I'll leave the thread open to continue discussion about the actual character build, but if it goes down the conversational path again, it will be closed.
Judging Eagle 10-20-06, 09:11 AM	What the? Lost post? Whatever. Anyway, if you do go ahead with your wizard remember one very, very key thing for a low lvl wizard. Try to cast spells that are essentially say: "You are on the path to Destruction. You have no chance to Survive! Make your time!" To your foes. Don't rely on 'damage' spells, they don't really work just yet. At level 5 and up maybe you can rely on a fireball, but buffs are a great way to increase the overall damage done to enemies and thus less wasted resources. So... buffing spells, and spells that are hard to succeed against. Enlarge person + Sheild on the greatsword wielding raging barbarian will end any fight really quickly; the enemies will not be able to hit the tank, and you've upped their damage so that they'll do mroe damage than your... magic missile could have. Ray of enfeeblement also is nice, it's not damage, it's a penalty, so it can't stack, however the highest penalty will affect the target (so, if you roll badly, and can cast a 2nd ray of enfeeblement, go for it, you can't really roll worse and if you roll better, your new roll will replace your last roll). Also, it has no save. I think SR though. Man, I'm tired, couldn't sleep all night. Also, make sure you max your craft alchemy; and make or buy tanglefoot bags. They're a really cheap and effective way to 'de-buff' an enemy when you run out of spells. A light crossbow trump a heavy crossbow, b/c you get more rounds to use it in, so you'll have more attack rolls and thus more average damage. Really, it all boils down to getting out of where you are with as many people alive as possible and with as much as you can haul out to hock as you can. Casting spells that increase party dealt damage is key to make fights last less time and consume less reasources. but it doesn't mean you need to cast scorching ray or fireball (i.e. the full plate wearing fighter who can hit and do decent damage w/ a great sword will really appreciate an enlarge person for more reach and a larger amount of damage per hit) Using Tenser's floating disk as a 'mobile' platform for a 6th lvl or higher melee character (or a hasted character) will allow for more full-attack actions faster in a fight. Plus they get +1 to hit since they're higher than their enemies. The guy on the disk can't be the caster, but you could stand on someone else's disk and have them move you; however they will have to wait for your initiative count for you to slide them about. Also, haste is a really great spell since you can probably affect the whole party and have the group move faster and attack more often than any member could before. Also, protecting party members who need the protection can be done many ways. Casting grease spells or tossing lamp oil and having the rogue used ranged sneak attacks when enemies enter the 'slick' squares works well. Since few low lvl enemies will have 5 ranks in balance, so they're flatfooted when in a greased area. Just some low level ideas to make the most out of your almsot non-existant spells at low levels.