Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Khazra Reborn 11-07-04, 12:54 PM	Im playing a 3 on 3 arena game next weekend & each character has 10 La to play around with on top of 20 levels!!!! The rules are standard equipment for level, we start 70 foot away from each ally in a line with the 3 enemies 150ft away set up in the same fashion. We can use anything we can show the 'referee' (DM) Are side's evil, theres is good. Starting stats were rolled, 18,17,16,14,14,12 (pretty good) Basicly i need help choosing race, templates & class. My two ideas so far are: 1.white dragon spawn wendigo (+4La) & another 5 La for base race &/or templates (cha, str, con) going gish 2. stonechild (2HD will have to be my first 2 levels) & another 6 La (str, int & speed)going swahbuckler3/barbarian4/fighter2/mortal hunter1/disciple of dispater8, uses 2* rapier (specifically the one in BoVD which means i do X3 crit on critical agaisnt good enemies). The plan here is to charge using snow tiger beserker (Referee ruled it would work with finessable weapons), full Pa with each hand for 2>1 Pa (favoured PA, shock trooper) & hope i crit (on a threat range of 6-20 i should). Basicly i need help fleshing out the first idea, comments on the 2nd, template/race suggestion & anyother character ideas (bear in mind, the other persons in my group are going for a monk & a true necromancer build). Thanks for any help, Khazra
HitokiriJA 11-07-04, 01:10 PM	The rapier has a threat range of 18-20. From what I'm aware of, threat range multipliers do not stack, so how are you getting 6-20?
Khazra Reborn 11-07-04, 04:14 PM	18-20 *4 (*3 for DoD,*2 for improved crit, due to stacking *4). 2*=15-20 3*=12-20 4*=9-20 Hmmmm, it appears i accidentally added another crit multiplier.oops :( 9-20 & a *3 crit is till pretty sick though :P
scrollreader 11-07-04, 05:02 PM	Be a Nimblewright. :D
Tempest Stormwind 11-07-04, 05:45 PM	Be a Nimblewright. :D Nimblewrights are ECL 16 as per the MM2 update. A wee bit too powerful, despite being wonderful monsters and an interesting PC race choice (one of my favorite characters is a nimblewright spymaster... that's one class that really needs a 3.5 update...) Could you better explain what's going on with your numbers? YOu mention it's a "+10 LA" game (which means NOTHING), and then specify that you've got a creature with 2 HD going into 18 class levels (swahbuckler3/barbarian4/fighter2/mortal hunter1/disciple of dispater8) AND has a +6 LA on top of of that.
scrollreader 11-07-04, 05:55 PM	Simple. He gets 20 HD, and another 10 LA, meaning he has an ECL 30 character, but 10 of that thirty must not be in HD. Hence the nimblewright's only issue becomes it's 10 HD, not its LA. And they're construct HD. Yech. Other tempting choices (imo) include the Naztharune Rakshasa Tef Shadowlord/Hexblade. You autoqualify for Tefflamarr Shadowlord, to get Shadow Pounce (Better than charging, imo), loads of SA, and 11 out of twenty HD are outsider hit dice. Along with SR, evasion, and mettle. You also might want to look into something like a Fallen Celestial. More outsider HD=the win (and you have 10 LA to burn ...)
charlesatan 11-07-04, 07:45 PM	The War Troll from Monsters Manual 3 seems impressive, at least if you're going to be a melee combatant. It's 12 Monstrous HD and has a LA of +6, so you can add in other templates to bring it up to LA +10 and then just take 8 class levels of something like probably Fighter or Barbarian or even Ranger.
scrollreader 11-07-04, 07:57 PM	Frenzied Berserker might be a good choice. Undying Frenzy should last through the arena battle.
warpdragon 11-07-04, 09:11 PM	Gheden Half Black Dragon War Troll LA:10/10 HD:12/20 Gheden (DR 313) is a template that makes you 1/2 undead, in this case mindless undead, but you still have a CON score for regeneration, and it makes you immune to nonlethal damage. You can only be injured by acid or non lethal damage acording to war troll, both of which you are immune to. Now you need a way to become immune to death attacks. Is that possible in 8 levels or with an item? How optimized will your opponents be? Are the BoED and BoVD allowed? Can you have 12 LA and 18 HD?
MaplessManiac620 11-07-04, 09:15 PM	Is that possible in 8 levels or with an item? If the BoED is allowed, Soulfire Armor should do the trick.
Tempest Stormwind 11-07-04, 09:22 PM	If the BoED is allowed, Soulfire Armor should do the trick. If it's not, use the DMG to make a magic item with Death Ward active. Even continuously, it isn't too expensive, and it doesn't eat up pluses on your armor. It does EXACTLY the same thing too -- soulfire armor is exactly the same in effect as an always-on Death Ward, except often pricier and it makes your armor cost more anyway. I don't know why anyone would use the armor instead of the item, really.
warpdragon 11-07-04, 09:27 PM	If the BoED is allowed, Soulfire Armor should do the trick. Um, he is on the evil side. Yeah, the deathward thing is good. Anyone want to price it?
Khelvaster 11-07-04, 09:32 PM	Use what is perhaps the most broken combo ever sorc7/ur-priest 2/mystic theurge 10/geomancer 1 as for ECL, Rakshasas are unique in being the only non-dragons who's hit dice stack with spellcasting levels. If your DM will allow it, take the rakshasa. I saw if the DM will allow it because a rakshasa has an ECL of 15(8 hit dice, +7 LA), then do sorc1/Ur-priest2/MT12 You can cast arcane spells as a 21st level sorcerer and have as many divine spell slots as a cleric who can cast 14th level spells. Perhaps go into battle with a contingency time stop to occur as soon as it's your move, quickened gates, empowered maximized admixtured flame strike, etc. No epic spells, but who cares?
catharz 11-07-04, 10:01 PM	Can you have 19 levels/11 LA? A Paragon human wizardy-something wold be pretty cool. A Monster of ledgend Blah blah blah cleric would be pretty cool too.
MaplessManiac620 11-07-04, 10:03 PM	Um, he is on the evil side. Yeah, the deathward thing is good. Anyone want to price it? Its a +4 enhancement to armor.
NateNate 11-07-04, 10:33 PM	As Per SS Tauric can combine a Monstrous Humanoid with a Magical Beast. The LA is base (monstrous) humanoid +3, and a Spellweaver (MM2) is a Monstrous Humanoid with a +7 LA and, "A spell weaver casts spells as a sorcerer two levels higher than its Hit Dice" (very similar to the Phaerims' ability). Combine it with a Horrid, Magebred (both in Eberron), Anarchic, Shadow (MotP) Dire Badger. 13 Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice, so you've got seven more levels to work with. Try War Hulk 6/Hulking Hurler 1, use Girallon's Blessing on yourself to gain even more arms (spellweaver starts with six), fuse arms, etc. Have a Contingent Greater Invisibility on yourself, triggers on entering the arena. Then quickened Dimension Door over to them, and use the War Hulk's Sweeping Boulder to kill two at once. Its now a 3-on-1 fight, and you kill the last one next round. GG. I think its fitting that this character would be eeevil.
Tempest Stormwind 11-07-04, 11:50 PM	Its a +4 enhancement to armor. Defeats the purpose if he's not good. Death Ward is a 4th level spell, duration 1 minute/level. This can be cast by a 7th level cleric, and the DMG charges 2000 GP as the base for a continuous item, with a footnote for 1 min/level spells requiring a x2 multiplier. So, the base is 4x7x2000x2 = 112000 GP. (I remember now why I said it was worse than the +4 armor bonus when this could be wrong -- I used it with a 1-shot artificer who got it down to far lower than this and had a pretty high armor enhancement. Sorry) Possibly multiplied more if you use something other than a cloak or amulet slot due to affinities. You can cut it down by using a different version of activation, if you'd like. Natenate: Why stop there? Tack on Paragon, Titanic, Monster of Legend, and other big templates on the badger before applying Shadow, and the LA will not change. The tauric creature couldn't care less about the initial LA of his lower half, only its hit dice. Someone explored this in the Hulking Hurler thread and ended up with something like +96 strength or something sick like that. Using this trick, you get around the LA of a paragon (unstated), while still reaping all of its benefits. It is probably the cheesiest template-fu I've ever seen, and it's probably strong enough to make even Monte Cook cringe. (By the way, we capped the HH at around 480 billion average damage, and I came up with a miniHB-Less version that more DMs would like, but I still like your idea better in this context. If you want to see how, the final build was on page 14, with all the buffs there. The strength could go one point higher if you want (raising the average damage to 552 billion -- yes, one point of strength adds 72 billion damage!), but I wanted to end with 4/4/4 instead of 4/3/4, just to scream "I'm a min-maxer trying to NOT look like a min-maxer.") EDIT -- NateNate, the last I looked at Tauric, you included the hit dice of the animal into the final result. This means you have 3 fewer levels to play with, since the dire badger is a 3 HD creature. Of course, you could always add a fractional HD creature into the mix as long as you applied the right templates to it (I had a DM throw a Titanic Earthworm of Legend at us once. He named it Jim.).
AviLazar 11-08-04, 12:24 AM	Using this trick, you get around the LA of a paragon (unstated), while still reaping all of its benefits. It is probably the cheesiest template-fu I've ever seen, and it's probably strong enough to make even Monte Cook cringe. (By the way, we capped the HH at around 480 billion average damage, and I came up with a miniHB-Less version that more DMs would like, but I still like your idea better in this context. If you want to see how, the final build was on page 14, with all the buffs there. The strength could go one point higher if you want (raising the average damage to 552 billion -- yes, one point of strength adds 72 billion damage!), but I wanted to end with 4/4/4 instead of 4/3/4, just to scream "I'm a min-maxer trying to NOT look like a min-maxer.") Just out of curiousity, where is this build? And where is the miniHB-less version? I would like to check out both. The first one to scare the living bjesus out of my DM (and use the combo on a regular orc) and the other to give him an alternative.
catharz 11-08-04, 12:41 AM	The Shadow creature template trick, fortunately, doesn't work. Firstly the magical beast type is only gained by creatures with a 'lower' hierarchy type, that being humanoid or animal. Nothing else will change type. In addition, Dragon magazine errated the template to only changing animals in a 3.5 update. Still, Warbeast, Magebred, and most importantly Paragon all work.
Tempest Stormwind 11-08-04, 01:14 AM	Just out of curiousity, where is this build? And where is the miniHB-less version? I would like to check out both. The first one to scare the living bjesus out of my DM (and use the combo on a regular orc) and the other to give him an alternative. Base thread. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=142565) The basic inspiration is the first post. Page 14 showed the finalized suped-up version, that's only good for about a minute before burning all the resources up (but has two attack forms -- see below). It's scattered over three of my posts. Page 17 has the Hulk-Less Hurler basic introduction; that build is more flexible than it seems, and might even work with something as core as a half-orc. The whole thing hinged on the HH's ability to turn your light (or medium, at second level) load into damage by throwing things. Improvised weapons, according to CW, do 5d6 if they're 400 pounds, +1d6 per 200 pounds afterward. So, we essentially found ways to max out this guy's medium load -- the super version had a medium load of about 27 TRILLION pounds, or possibly 31.5 trillion if you gave him one more firewine drink. This translated to insane damage on the order of 137 billion d6. The version on page 14 also included a weapon -- a fair bit smaller than his medium load, shame, but still plenty heavy (1 512 003 d6), within his budget (so it shows up on the character sheet, a biggie with some DMs), AND enchanted to get around a huge number of standard defenses against this build. The hulk-less hurler was created on a whim, when someone asked if you could find a way to do it without the War Hulk (which I assumed meant without the miniatures handbook). It ended up working with only Complete Warrior, the Player's Guide to Faerun, possibly the Planar Handbook, and Savage Species, but most anything in Savage Species could be removed and worked around if you were creative. Enough about this sick guy, though. It's off topic. So, the Shadow loophole was fixed? I remember the pyramid, but seemed to remember that Shadow got around it, because it could actually be applied to things like undead or outsiders and it still caused a type change. If I misread it, oh, well, we can find other ways around it. Such as a Paragon Titanic Shadow Horrid Magebred [Any Dire Animal you want] Warbeast, which if I read the templates correctly, is a magical beast (apply Shadow last) and has enormous ability adjustments (all abilities 15 higher from Paragon, Con 4 higher from Horrid, one of Str/dex/con 4 higher, the other two 2 higher from Magebred, a few minor points from Warbeast, plus the Titanic Modifiers based on the size of the base animal). In fact, you can slap others on there too, so long as you don't add HD and don't go above Magical Beast on the template pyramid. I'd suggest ones that boost your strength. THEN you Tauric it with your spellweaver. I think we're onto something. ^_^
scrollreader 11-08-04, 02:41 AM	Just a note. I'm pretty sure you don't have to be good to wear soulfire armor. :P
MaplessManiac620 11-08-04, 02:50 AM	Just a note. I'm pretty sure you don't have to be good to wear soulfire armor. :P The BoED doesn't say you have to be good, or that there are any ill effects if you're not and weild it anyway. I'll have to agree.
argorond 11-08-04, 05:08 AM	Use what is perhaps the most broken combo ever sorc7/ur-priest 2/mystic theurge 10/geomancer 1 as for ECL, Rakshasas are unique in being the only non-dragons who's hit dice stack with spellcasting levels. If your DM will allow it, take the rakshasa. I saw if the DM will allow it because a rakshasa has an ECL of 15(8 hit dice, +7 LA), then do sorc1/Ur-priest2/MT12 You can cast arcane spells as a 21st level sorcerer and have as many divine spell slots as a cleric who can cast 14th level spells. Perhaps go into battle with a contingency time stop to occur as soon as it's your move, quickened gates, empowered maximized admixtured flame strike, etc. No epic spells, but who cares? Wouldnt Sharn be better for this? At least i remember some sharn maximization thread =)
Part-Human2 11-08-04, 07:53 AM	I'm a fan of the Keepers (FF) for 4 HD (outsider) + 3 LA you get scads of abilities, add Phrenic (+2 LA, XPH) + Vivacious (+5 LA, PlanarHB) then apply 16 levels of combat PrCs (something that doesn't rely on STR like a Duelist or Archer).
Khazra Reborn 11-08-04, 11:53 AM	Hmmmm as a note to all the mystic theurges i would rather not play one, the true necromancer would probaly come out quite similar. Im not really interested in catsers.....probaly should have mentioned that As for FBs, cheaters of mystra & hulking hurlers, although there not banned i'd rather not do one of these as, well i find them a bit boring. Hmmmm, i was thinking i'd like the chance to play a war troll the other day.... Does anyone know th La of monster of legend, i can find it.....? Just reading half dragon i wondering....does it change all HD to D12's? If so wouldn't it be nice for a rogue or other low HD chacter? I looked at the gheden but it has so many minuses to stats, total stat mod is -6! What do people think of going half iron golem & wendigo, fire is the only thing i dont regenerate & it gives me 1 HP for each 3 done instead of damage!!!! what do people think?
NateNate 11-08-04, 12:18 PM	The LA of Monster of Legend is +7. I say go with the War Troll, and make it a half green or black dragon. The base creature only takes normal damage from acid iirc, everything else is converted to nonlethal and regenerated. Wear the Death Ward armor mentioned previously and the only thing that can kill him would be a Disintegrate spell. Half Dragon increases Racial HD by one size, max d12, but doesn't increase class HD. War Troll is a Monstrous Humanoid, so its d8 HD would become d10s. I don't know how many HD it has, but I'd go Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker, use a Bastard Sword and take one level of Exotic Weapon Master for Uncanny Blow. Take Extend Rage and Rage and Frenzy both at once. Look in the Unapproachable East, theres a feat called Craft Contingent Spell. Dont take the feat, just buy a lot of preselected buffs, like Draconic Might, Shield, and Extended Displacement. Make them all trigger upon entering the arena.
scrollreader 11-08-04, 02:39 PM	This sounds like a plan. But I'd make the armor soulfire AND proof versus tranmutation. Then you can happily frenzy through anything.
Lilt 11-08-04, 03:06 PM	I'd consider possible opponent strategies and try to meta against them... If you make your guys *really* dammn tough without relying on magic then items of (or the ability to cast) antimagic field may be very useful. If your opponents go with even one spell- or supernatural-heavy member then that's one enemy pretty-much out of the fight and (probably) the rest of them crippled somewhat. Take a Sharn MT with the Initiate of Mystra feat for the win.
Khazra Reborn 11-08-04, 03:29 PM	Half Dragon increases Racial HD by one size, max d12, but doesn't increase class HD. War Troll is a Monstrous Humanoid, so its d8 HD would become d10s. I don't know how many HD it has, but I'd go Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker, use a Bastard Sword and take one level of Exotic Weapon Master for Uncanny Blow. Take Extend Rage and Rage and Frenzy both at once. I'd consider possible opponent strategies and try to meta against them... If you make your guys *really* dammn tough without relying on magic then items of (or the ability to cast) antimagic field may be very useful. How about combining these & using a runescarred beserker grappling with an anti-magic field going during the grapple?
warpdragon 11-08-04, 03:51 PM	I looked at the gheden but it has so many minuses to stats, total stat mod is -6! Does it really matter if you are immune to death attacks, non lethal damage, and all lethal damage is converted into nonlethal, which you are immune to? The only thing that can touch you is something similar to a sphere of anihilation, charm monster or a force cage. Armor cant be sundered. After the 12 dragon HD, Rog2/Hex3/xxx3 might be nice. Maybe warhulk?
Tempest Stormwind 11-08-04, 07:18 PM	And why is no one considering the tauric template-fu a valid option? The LA of the final monster doesn't matter, only its original HD. I don't have any stats on the Sharn (all I know is it has lots of arms, 2 standard actions per round, and cannot be polymorphed or used as a goal polymorph form). If I did, I'd do some quick juggling and tauric it with some ungodly beast and you'd still have room to level on classes if you want.