Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kilanirax 04-28-04, 01:13 AM	The Question: How can I min/max my future gnome geomancer level 10? The Reason: 4 Months ago my friends made a new party, promissing not to min/max their characters (actually i don't like to min/max very much..). I stayed to that promisse and started building a gnome geomancer. I really like the geomancer concept and i really wanted to role-play one. After 6 levels i discovered that i was the only one that was not min/maxing my character.... In my party are: a devlish drow battlesorcerer (he has devil bloodline or something like this, allowing the devil/demon polymorph, and to maximize and increase the DC of his spells by 2 twice a day....), a pumped up dervish (never ending attacks with criticals every round), a min/maxed necromancer cleric (i do not even know from where he gets these min/maxed spells...) and a dwarf forsaker with a adamantium banded mail and infinite hit points.... ..well i am a gnome cleric 3 (travel, luck)/ transmuter (no Necro and Abjuration) 3 / geomancer 1, i'm not weak... but not pumped up enough.... In the last fight i realized that my power has fallen behind, as i didn't make a lot of melee damage (...well i can't do better than the "Dancer" or the "Imortal Dwarf") or magic damage (my magic missle or acid arrow is nothing compared to the ones of "The Devil" and the min/max spells of the "skeleton-man" (=the dead)). Character overview: My Gnome (called: Unab Hängig Von Fudor Vanvan) has the wish to be "independent". He likes to travel (for that reason he will take the wings of the fifth drift) and make stuff by himself (he will have the photosynthetic drift when he gets this option....). He is always making jokes and bluffing (but he does not know how to bluff (no ranks....)) and likes funny spells (color spray. tashas hideous laugher etc.) or defensive/retreat spells (rope trick, expeditous retreat....). He has a squirril familiar (called: Gal Gungagunli) and is always looking for flowers (he believed they give him energy.. but he stopped doing so since they died with his touch (drift1)). Until now he was a support character (he always helped A LOT) and even a fighter (!!!), but now things have changed... it was a small step for the elf, but it is a huge step for the gnome.... He chose Farlaghun as his deity because he loves to travel (and because I'm not very lucky with the dice...) and transmutation because of the retreat/ traveling and polymorph option (which i also like a lot). I really want to get to geomancer 9 or 10.... the rest would be up to you guys... it is ok to change some stuff, as i believe that my DM realized that i might need to change some stuff to get better My infos: Race: Gnome Class: cleric 3 /transmuter 3 / geomancer 1 Str: 11 Dex: 16 Con: 16 Int: 18 Wis: 17 Cha: 13 Goal: Being a Geomancer 10 having either some fighting power or some spell power... i like BOTH... i will obviously carry support spells, but i will try to avoid these, as i normally use them too much... What i have to "review": Stats, feats, 3 levels of prestige class (or simply: the other 10 lvs...), spells and any other interesting feature which i might have forgetten.... Please, tell me if there is a possibility to make a good geomancer or at least tell me: "Sorry, but you entered a one way street..."... Any idea is welcome... (A site would also help.. i found no good info on this forum...) (I was planning to put my wis 17 in str (making wis: 13 and str: 15) to improve my "fighting power". Don't you agree that this could help a little as wis is of no use ( remember: i have spell versatility, and want to focus on arcane magic)) Many Thanks
Blade2718 04-28-04, 01:41 AM	Why only 'til 10th level? Game not lasting much longer? Anyway, the Geomancer is a pretty cool-sounding PrC, though its min-max mojo has mostly faded away since the arrival of the Theurge. Listing feats would help a lot in getting more feedback.
catharz 04-28-04, 03:05 AM	I can think of a few things: One is that Geomancer is terrible for a Cleric/Wizard unless you happen to be an epic Mystic theurge. Another is that the only real way to boost a Cleric/Wizard's power (one that isn't that for some esoteric build, mind you) is to take Mystic theurge. As boring as the class may be. Geomancer is decent for the following: Wizard/Nentyar hunter 2/Mystic theurge 3, Sha'ir, and certain Nar demonbinder builds. That is basically *it*. I reccomend that you either reverse-engineer youur character or start taking Mystic theurge levels. The only other suggestion I have is, if you do insist on taking more Geomancer levels, only level which ever class you increased with your first Geo level. Or just pray for the Epic levels and take Mystic theurge as soon as you are done with Geo.
Funny Slaughter 04-28-04, 05:44 AM	i second catharz, with nentyar hunter you can make a viable geomancer. i would think about starting as a ranger, it cost a casterlevel but you wont be a primary caster anyhow. means: ranger1/wizard5/NH2/MT3/geo9 feats: track, combat casting, alertness (done by lvl3) after this i would orientate my feats at the drift-powers you get. offensive magic is not your strength due to the reduced casterlevel, but you can excel at buffing with the NH-spells added to your repertoire. you can also wear heavy armor and act as the partys ranger/tracker total casterlevel is 17/5, means 9th lvl spells in the end gs Funny
Sang-Drax 04-28-04, 08:26 AM	I can't see any other possible way to min/max your gnome with no levels of mystic theurge either. Nentyar Hunter is from Unapproachable East, if I'm not mistaken.
Kilanirax 04-28-04, 09:11 AM	Thanks for the help, i actually do not know about this Nentyar Hunter (from Unapproachable East (thanks for telling were i can get his stats...), is he more a like a fighter or a spellcaster? Well, i thought i needed to get some levels as mystic theurge as it is the "best" option, but catharz is right: it is boring... and let me say: geomancer is not boring a all.. i believe it is one of the most interesting classes to role-play. Jus t explaining why i chose wizard and not sorcerres.. beside the history of my character: to get 9th level spells... The idea of the Ranger is VERY interesting... since i can use armor without spell failure and i was planning to go for the fight using booster spells, but being a gnome makes it a little bit more dificult... should i atually change my strenght? My feats in the moment are: Photosntetic Skin (spelltouched/ unearched arcana), Enshew material (the goal of independency....) and extend spell... feats that ould boos drifts are lso VERY interesting, i though to boast th Rage dift (extra rage etc...) or the natural weopon options (multiattack...) any good idea about that? Again, thanks for all these good ideas...
The Lone Drow 04-28-04, 11:18 PM	An immortal Dwarf Forsaker? Hahahaha! That's awesome! Just wait until he becomes an exotic weapon master!
catharz 04-29-04, 01:04 AM	Originally posted by Funny Slaughter means: ranger1/wizard5/NH2/MT3/geo9 Isn't ranger1/wizard4/NH2/MT3/geo10 legal? Anyway, it is a great build if you don't mind being a secondary caster at low-mid levels. And don't forget wands of hunter's mercy :smirk: Originally posted by Kilanirax Thanks for the help, i actually do not know about this Nentyar Hunter (from Unapproachable East (thanks for telling were i can get his stats...), is he more a like a fighter or a spellcaster? It is more like a Druid then anything else, but with more focus on the skills/tracking, Ranger-y side of things. D6 HD, 2/3 BAB, spellcasting up to level 5... It is really there to make a Ranger type character more of a spellcaster. Originally posted by Kilanirax The idea of the Ranger is VERY interesting... since i can use armor without spell failure and i was planning to go for the fight using booster spells, but being a gnome makes it a little bit more dificult... should i atually change my strenght? Your strength should be fine. Just don't wear more armor then a Chain shirt of Mithril breastplate. You're probably better of being more of an archer then a tank, although this build can fit both roles. Originally posted by Kilanirax My feats in the moment are: Photosntetic Skin (spelltouched/ unearched arcana), Enshew material (the goal of independency....) and extend spell... feats that ould boos drifts are lso VERY interesting, i though to boast th Rage dift (extra rage etc...) or the natural weopon options (multiattack...) any good idea about that? Again, thanks for all these good ideas... Remember that you can gain photosynthesis as a Drift. I would *not* reccomend the Rage drift: You can't cast spells while raging. If you want natural weapons, Talons are nice: Finesse will be a help even with manufactured weapons. The Trip ability is also a nice one of general utility, mainy if you are Polymorphed. There is a magical item called the Kiira found in Magic of faerun. It acts as a spellbook (45 spells IIRC), but is a gem that attaches to your forehead. you might want to get one of these, as they are easier to pack along in the woods then a paper spellbook.
Funny Slaughter 04-29-04, 04:37 AM	Isn't ranger1/wizard4/NH2/MT3/geo10 legal? right, it is. was too late as it seems, all you need are 8 ranks and no 3rd level spells... i think its a quite good secondary caster concept, one can do a good time of casting together with decent wilderness skills and interesting drift-possibilities. if one spends some time looking at the drifts one can get very good ones that dont alter your appearance to much. (if you want to you can look scary of course) Kilanirax, you have very good overall stats but if you dont go with cleric you dont need a 17 wis. i would recommend these stats: Str: 16->14 Dex: 13 Con: 17->19 Int: 18 Wis: 13 Cha: 13 the type of armor you wear should mainly depend on your geomancer-level. in the mid-levels a mithral chainshirt should be all you have, othewise your wizard-spells will fumble too often. with geomancers versatility you can cast arcane spells as divine in regard of ASF. and also good, you can use int for divine spells... anyhow, casterlevel 17 in the end is not shabby and i would say its well worth it as long as you dont try to be the one responsible for dispelling stuff. gs Funny
Sang-Drax 04-29-04, 11:56 AM	On the other hand, you don't really need to be a ranger to qualify to netyar Hunter. If I am right, you need 8 ranks in Survival and 4 in some other ranger-like skill. You could get the Versatile feat (I *think* it's from FRCS) to choose Survival and, maybe the other mysterious skill as a class skills. Then, go Wiz 6/NH 2/MT 2/Geo10 Of course, you waste a feat doing that, but you don't have to take all the 6 wizard levels at once; you need to be character level 5 to qualify to Nentyar Hunter (because of the 8 ranks requirement). But wiz 6 gives you +1 BAB and +1 to saves. You might consider Wiz 5/MT 3 if you're using fractional BAB. You gain one more NH spellcasting level. Of course, all of that means you become a better spellcaster (18th level wiz pre-Epic), but you lose all the nice ranger skills and 1 BAB. Considering you have a Dervish and an Immortal Forsaker as the prime tanks, I would not waste my time with combat boosting. You're a gnome, after all :D Hope I've helped.
Kilanirax 04-29-04, 01:33 PM	wow.. Thanks for the replies!!!! First: photosynthetic skin drift and Photosynthetic skin spell- touched are different. The first is to make photosynthesis (like a plant... I love this idea... the verdant lord also has this, but he does not have to spread leaves... which is bizarre....) and the second gives you +2AC on daylight (caused by the use of spell of his father (who worshiped Pelor... ) Second: In my party it is actually good to have a “heavy armor" because of a rule of the house: +2 Ac for all Heavy armors (we just believed they were to weak...). but as I am still a transmuter I am using a mithril-shirt (spell failure 10% (+plus mithril shield +5% SF)) Third: Rage- i though it would be quite interesting to rage becoming a hydra and using tenser transformation (delayed spell, or natural spell) or something like this.... The trip idea is quite good and i will take a closer look. Eagle talons was one of my choises.. it can be quite handy.... Fourth: Yes, I was very lucky rolling my dices... (first time!!) and i was planning to change my stats exactly as you pointed... i have to discuss this wih my DM.. but that could help a lot... Fifth: Well, I still haven´t found a friend that has the Unapproachable East or a place where i can take a look at the Nentyar Hunter, so i can´t speak much about him.. but as i have "travel" as one of my domains I have SURVIVAL AS CLASS_SKILL... i hope this can help me somehow.... (does NH add spellcaster level (Prestige Class) or is he a class with "normal" spell progression?) and this relationship with nature is also good (,but i shouldn´t focus to much on this aspect, because my last character was a druid... (would be too boring...)) Sixth: I really want o be a geomancer as soon s possible (i don´t know how long my Suicide Geo-gnome can survive... he could die while charging on a ancient red dragon, or he might die by the hands of the rest of the party (specially by the hands of " the Immortal" (he is afraid of magic, does not understand jokes (yes he is not very bright) and has a "small" problem..) because of all the "funny" jokes he makes about them).. yes he loves to play pranks, and some party members already tried to kill him... (I LOVE expenditous retreat.....) Thanks again for all replies, i believe i am getting somewhere... i will research about the NH: Could the following work? (remember I HAVE SURVIVEL!) cleric1(travel)/transmuter4/NH2/geo10/MT3 or even better: cleric1/wizard3/NH2/geo10/MT4 or only: cleric2/wizard3/NH2/geo10/MT3 Thanks for the help!! PS: the "The Lone Drow" is the Devil!!!
The Lone Drow 04-29-04, 02:07 PM	Damn right! :devil: Edit: Wait- you mean the devil in your adventure? No, I'm the just THE devil, not *your* devil!
Sang-Drax 04-29-04, 03:40 PM	You need at least 5 character levels to qualify to Nentyar Hunter. A cleric 2/wizard 3 would work, yes, but these 2 clerical levels would be totally useless. A Nentyar Hunter has his own spell list, and you'd get 5th level spells at 5th NH level. They have an odd progression, much like ur-priest and nar demonbinder. That said, the point in being a nh is that you don't need to waste 3 levels in a divine spellcasting class, only 2 nh levels are enough to get the 2nd level spells you need to qualify to geomancer and mystic theurge. So, you won't need the clerical levels at all! As for survival class skill, try getting "versatile" or "cosmopolitan" feats at 1st level and go wiz 5/nh 2/geo 10/mt 3 or take ranger at first level and go ran 1/wiz 4/nh 2/geo 10/mt 2.
Funny Slaughter 04-29-04, 04:06 PM	cosmopolitan is no longer an option, but versatile was better nontheless. its getting tight with the feats then because you need versatile (1st), track (3rd), alertness(6th) and combat casting (9th): doesnt work i think a ranger level is the better trade-off gs Funny
The Lone Drow 04-29-04, 05:48 PM	From what I gather you're a cleric 3 /transmuter 3 / geomancer 1 To change the whole outlook of your character, taking away the cleric, will be cheating on the whole adventure in my opinion... If your DM decides to allow you to completely change your character, at least keep a few traits and his personality intact... take the ranger, but don't forget the cleric... There's no point to min/maxing if you're going to forget about role-playing.
Sang-Drax 04-29-04, 09:36 PM	Slaughter, true... didn't know the nentyar hunter needed all that many feats. I mean, it could be done if flaws are been allowed, but anyway, I don't think it's worth it. On the other hand, if you're taking ranger 1 and nh 2, what's the big advantage over 3 levels of cleric? You're wasting 3 spellcaster levels anyway. Of course there are the extra skill points, but I don't think this would be enough of a reason to change the character as a whole. Besides, a 5th level NH casting is not that better than a 5th level Cleric either; it becomes even more doubtful with this bunch of totally useless feats. In my opinion, the poor geo-gnome is, in fact, in a one-way route... :bored: Unless you choose the ur-priest/mystic theurge path ;)
LordShade 04-30-04, 12:20 AM	At the risk of being flamed... Wiz5/Palemaster1/Ur-Priest2/MT2/Geo10 Mechanically, it's at least as good as the Ranger/NH build. Downsides: 1) changes the entire flavor of your character by introducing a necromantic theme. 2) you have to be evil. 3) many people are suspicious of the ur-priest (and rightfully so). 4) it's just a weird build that doesn't make a whole lot of sense thematically. The best geomancer build remains Shadowdreamer's Clr3/Wiz3/Geo4/Hexer10, but that only works for a goblin type or other monstrous humanoid.
The Lone Drow 04-30-04, 12:28 AM	He's a gnome with a little squirril... hardly evil innit... :D But hey, since he'll probly have to change everything about his build, he might as well be evil...
catharz 04-30-04, 01:44 AM	Originally posted by LordShade At the risk of being flamed... Wiz5/Palemaster1/Ur-Priest2/MT2/Geo10 Mechanically, it's at least as good as the Ranger/NH build. Downsides: 1) changes the entire flavor of your character by introducing a necromantic theme. 2) you have to be evil. 3) many people are suspicious of the ur-priest (and rightfully so). 4) it's just a weird build that doesn't make a whole lot of sense thematically. The best geomancer build remains Shadowdreamer's Clr3/Wiz3/Geo4/Hexer10, but that only works for a goblin type or other monstrous humanoid. I don't get the point of it. The Nentyar hunter build is designed to max Nentyar hunter spellcasting, qualify for Geomancer, and get as much Wizard spellcasting as is reasonable. The Ur priest build is purposely weak, spending two caster levels to end up with lower level divine spells then then Nentyar hunter. While the NH is Min/Maxed, the UP is five spell levels behind what they could be. It isn't fundamentally weaker, but it is a waste of a very powerful PrC (unless you play on going epic with MT). It also lacks the outdoors flavor (although the flavor of the drifts can be just as cool when the skin falls off your character's hands, exposing bony talons, then he gains spikes like a Hamatula, eyes glow red granting Darkvision, Demonic wings, etc). I guess I just have an aversion to intentionally weak builds. whatever.
Sang-Drax 04-30-04, 07:41 AM	Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge can be very powerful, but he would have to drop some Geomancer levels to do so. And that would entirely change the character's concept... if it was to do something like that, it's better to give up being a gnome whatsoever. Funny, I just don't see the point on being a Nentyar hunter instead of a Cleric. I mean, you'll end up as a wiz 17/nh 5 or cle 5. True, NH 5 gets 5 levels spells, but I don't see them as *that* great, not much better than a 5th level cleric's spells, at least not enough to make for the change in the character's concept and all the useless feat required. I mean, it would be really cool if he were a ranger, full of skill points and all, but honestly, I don't see the point min/maxingwise. ps: btw, it's *me* who's the Demonic (not Devilish) Drow in his campaign :D "The Lone Drow" is the dwarven forsaker. We didn't want to tell the geo-gnome that we have seen here in the CO Board hehehe Edit: Grammar issues.
Funny Slaughter 04-30-04, 09:30 AM	True, NH 5 gets 5 levels spells, but I don't see them as *that* great, not much better than a 5th level cleric's spells, at least not enough to make for the change in the character's concept and all the useless feat required. having 3rd and 5th level spells makes quite a big difference in my opinion. the NH does also have a very good spell-list. as a ranger/NH you have quite some more skillpoints as well as a few classfeatures. together with geomancer you have a very wilderness-orientated caster and, in my opinion, NH does fit this concept better then cleric does. gs Funny
LordShade 04-30-04, 03:18 PM	Originally posted by catharz I don't get the point of it. (snip) The Ur priest build is purposely weak, spending two caster levels to end up with lower level divine spells then then Nentyar hunter. Yes, but you have 1 more caster level of your main casting class. That's the only reason I posted it.
Jayr 04-30-04, 05:26 PM	As a previous gnome transmuter/druid/geomancer, I suggest switching your strength and wisdom scores. Your wisdom won't really matter as low level clerics don't have many spells that require saves, and once you get those spells your spell versatility will be so high that it won't matter. For your armor, try a mithral full plate once your spell versatility is high enough. As to drifts, try to get a few natural attack modes, plus the elk's speed drift in stage 2. It would be a good idea to put at least 2 of your extra spellcaster levels into cleric so you get acess to more spontaneous healing spells. Mystic theurge levels are a possibility after you've finished the geomancer progression. I suggest you don't follow the Ur-Priest or pale master progression if you are a gnome who likes flowers- not because it's bad, but because it's way too wierd a character to effectively roleplay.